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Altair_the_Vexed
2010-03-07, 01:30 PM
I'm thinking about using the generic classes in an upcoming game. These are published in Unearthed Arcana, and are in some compiled SRDs online. Here it is if you're not familiar with it. (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/unearthedNewClasses.html)

Now, the most broken issue I can see immediately is that as written, you can play a divine Spellcaster, wear armour, and take all your spells from the wizard list, and thus be all of the awesome.
I guess that's easily resolved by adding the house rule that only arcane casters can take spells from the wizard or bard list.

Anyway - aside from the Spellcaster, are there any other combinations that jump out as being easily broken?

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-07, 01:48 PM
Here's the breakdown:


Generic Expert: Tier 4, low Tier 3. Balanced, but all those feats are good for someone.

Generic Warrior: Tier 4. It has everything the Fighter does with none of the restrictions. It makes a stronger Fighter by default, but suffers the same problems they do.

Generic Spellcaster: Tier 1. Do not allow. The ability to cherry pick spells from both Cleric and Wizard lists is more than enough to make up for their limited spells known.

The Dark Fiddler
2010-03-07, 01:53 PM
Well, I suppose that you could get a lot of feats by taking one of them, since Bonus Feat doesn't specify what feats you have to take (like a Wizard's or Fighter's do). I guess that'd be good for feat starved builds if it weren't for the fact that you're recommended not to use them with classes.

Nero24200
2010-03-07, 05:34 PM
I'd say the spellcaster thing is really the biggest. I'd definately lower the spell progression heavily (I'd say to a Bards, but even then if you're cherry picking spells from any list it might not be enough).

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-07, 09:04 PM
Two things
1) Do you reckon they would be useful in gestalt? one side progression normal classes and the other with generic (though spellcaster would be awesome to anybuild I think)

2)

MULTICLASS GENERIC CHARACTERS
With only three classes to choose from (four if you count arcane spellcasters and divine spellcasters as separate classes), multiclassing in this variant system offers a much smaller variety of combinations than in the standard game. Thus, the game master probably shouldn't apply an XP penalty for characters who multiclass.


Why is the bolded part a suggestion instead of RAW? I believe the multiclass penalty should be a variant rule IF it need to EXISTS at all

AstralFire
2010-03-07, 09:07 PM
They were terrified people would unlock the power of Ranger 1/Monk 1/Barbarian 1/Paladin 1 in 3.0.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-07, 09:08 PM
They were terrified people would unlock the power of Ranger 1/Monk 1/Barbarian 1/Paladin 1 in 3.0.

Started playing in 3.5 so can you please explain that?

Starbuck_II
2010-03-07, 09:27 PM
Started playing in 3.5 so can you please explain that?

It was a joke. That would be a underpowered choice, but yeah, foolish designers.

Only thing I can think of is Rogue 2 would give anyone evasion, and designers thought Fireball was the Awesome!!! (yes with 3 exclamations) So anything that would weaken Damage dealing was worrisome.

krossbow
2010-03-07, 09:29 PM
They were terrified people would unlock the power of Ranger 1/Monk 1/Barbarian 1/Paladin 1 in 3.0.


a level 20 character with 1 level in every class. i'm not sure whether that would be something to applaud at or cry at.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-07, 09:38 PM
What's really broken from that system is if you allow the variant feats to be taken with normal classes. Free Sneak Attack for my Wizard!

The Spellcaster... I dunno. The others are fine.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-07, 09:42 PM
a level 20 character with 1 level in every class. i'm not sure whether that would be something to applaud at or cry at.

RAW: Alignment restrictions make it fairly difficult.


Hexblade 1/Barbarian 1/Bard 1/Incarnate 1/Crusader 1/Swordsage 1/Warblade 1/Totemist 1/Wizard 1/Sorcerer 1/Cleric 1/Druid 1/Swashbuckler 1/Scout 1/Spellthief 1/Ninja 1/Binder 1/Shadowcaster 1/Ranger 1/Fighter 1

Overall BAB: +7, better if using Partial BAB. Saves are decent at least. Skills are a *****.

faceroll
2010-03-07, 09:45 PM
They were terrified people would unlock the power of Ranger 1/Monk 1/Barbarian 1/Paladin 1 in 3.0.

Yet as long as you did all that and favored class X, you wouldn't incur any multiclass penalties.


Started playing in 3.5 so can you please explain that?

It used to get you evasion, two weapon fighting, ambidexterity, and charisma to saves. Don't know what barb's doing in there. Rage and fast movement, I guess.

Ravens_cry
2010-03-07, 09:57 PM
Well, as was shown with the runesmith, heavy armour for a wizard arcane spell caster isn't broken. The cap was, but the generic doesn't get that. Besides, the generic classes don't seem to be meant to be used alongside other classes, they are meant as variants for a different game.

Mongoose87
2010-03-07, 10:02 PM
They were terrified people would unlock the power of Ranger 1/Monk 1/Barbarian 1/Paladin 1 in 3.0.

Wouldn't this have no penalties, since they're all the same level?

faceroll
2010-03-07, 10:05 PM
Wouldn't this have no penalties, since they're all the same level?

Correct.


Well, as was shown with the runesmith, heavy armour for a wizard arcane spell caster isn't broken. The cap was, but the generic doesn't get that. Besides, the generic classes don't seem to be meant to be used alongside other classes, they are meant as variants for a different game.

It's more like getting +2 more AC above what greater mage armor gets you is such a trivial ability compared to everything else a wizard gets, no one should really worry about it.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-07, 10:07 PM
a level 20 character with 1 level in every class. i'm not sure whether that would be something to applaud at or cry at.
I made a character with 1 level in 20 classes that got 9th level spells. Was also quite possibly an actual character with a unifying theme, despite the huge number of classes. The beginning levels were a bit iffy, but by level 6 or so there was a very solid theme organized around music, arcane magic, and religious ties.

Ravens_cry
2010-03-07, 10:09 PM
Correct.



It's more like getting +2 more AC above what greater mage armor gets you is such a trivial ability compared to everything else a wizard gets, no one should really worry about it.
To misquote The Gamers: Dorkness Rising '+2 AC? WHEEE!'*
*sarcasm.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-07, 10:10 PM
I made a character with 1 level in 20 classes that got 9th level spells. Was also quite possibly an actual character with a unifying theme, despite the huge number of classes. The beginning levels were a bit iffy, but by level 6 or so there was a very solid theme organized around music, arcane magic, and religious ties.

Ok. That's a build I want to see.

Malificus
2010-03-07, 10:17 PM
RAW: Alignment restrictions make it fairly difficult.


Hexblade 1/Barbarian 1/Bard 1/Incarnate 1/Crusader 1/Swordsage 1/Warblade 1/Totemist 1/Wizard 1/Sorcerer 1/Cleric 1/Druid 1/Swashbuckler 1/Scout 1/Spellthief 1/Ninja 1/Binder 1/Shadowcaster 1/Ranger 1/Fighter 1

Overall BAB: +7, better if using Partial BAB. Saves are decent at least. Skills are a *****.

How about:

Fighter 1/Ranger 1/Barbarian 1/Hexblade 1/Samurai 1/Duskblade 1/Knight 1/Swashbuckler 1/Bloodhound 1/Dread Pirate 1/Forest Reeve 1/Bear Warrior 1/Dirvish 1/The Occult Slayer 1/Ronin 1/Crusader 1/Warblade 1/x 1/x 1/x 1?

That's at least a +17 BAB. saves are : absurdly fort heavy, and skills are a mess. If you can get more full BAB for the last three, all the better. I just stopped looking after a point ._.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-07, 10:21 PM
Fighter 1/Ranger 1/Barbarian 1/Hexblade 1/Samurai 1/Duskblade 1/Knight 1/Swashbuckler 1/Bloodhound 1/Dread Pirate 1/Forest Reeve 1/Bear Warrior 1/Dirvish 1/The Occult Slayer 1/Ronin 1/Crusader 1/Warblade 1/x 1/x 1/x 1?

Knight+ Samurai contradicts Barbarian. Replace it with a Pally of Tyranny. This makes Bear Warrior illegal. IIRC, it also makes Ronin illegal.


You used PrCs, and you didn't finish the last four levels.

faceroll
2010-03-07, 10:27 PM
Knight+ Samurai contradicts Barbarian. Replace it with a Pally of Tyranny. This makes Bear Warrior illegal. IIRC, it also makes Ronin illegal.

If you knight loses its abilities if you aren't lawful. Replace that with paladin of slaughter. Rage is superior to yelling at dudes.

Malificus
2010-03-07, 10:34 PM
Knight+ Samurai contradicts Barbarian. Replace it with a Pally of Tyranny. This makes Bear Warrior illegal. IIRC, it also makes Ronin illegal.

I'm not against putting a class there to have lost its abilities just to maintain full BAB.

I should add pally of freedom though. Samurai doesn't actually lose anything from its one level by becoming unlawful. Knight needs to be dropped though.

Ravens_cry
2010-03-07, 10:41 PM
Aren't we getting just a WEE bit off topic here folks?
I have been part of some EPIC thread derails (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93068&page=8), but that doesn't mean it's exactly a GOOD thing.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-07, 11:23 PM
Ok. That's a build I want to see.
Sure, I'll spoiler it for you.

Here's my answer (finally). It assumes fractional BAB, and it also assumes alignment restrictions are not in force. With alignment restrictions, you'd have to choose somewhat different +1 casting class PrCs (but there are plenty of those to go around so that's not a huge problem):
{table=head]Level|Class|Variant|Requirements|BAB|Features|Norm al Feats|Prep. Sp. Lv.|Spont. Sp. Lv.|Spellcasting of...
Human|||||Bonus Feat and Skill Points|Able Learner
1st|Abjurer|Fighter Feats, Focused Specialist||0.5|Endurance, Familiar|Precocious Apprentice|2nd||Wizard
2nd|Bard||Non-Lawful|1.25|Bardic Music, Bardic Lore, Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire Courage +1||2nd|1st|Bard
3rd|Crusader|||2.25|Furious Counterstrike, Steely Resolve|Chain Spell (or any other MM)|2nd|1st|
4th|Monk|Chaos, Illuminated|Chaotic|3|Skill Focus (Spellcraft)||2nd|1st|
5th|Warblade|||4|Battle Clarity, Weapon Aptitude||2nd|1st|
6th|Fighter|Bodyguard||5|Iron Will|Combat Casting|2nd|1st|
7th|Horizon Walker||Endurance|6|Desert Terrain Mastery||2nd|1st|
8th|Suel Arcanamach||+6 BAB, Iron Will, Combat Casting|7|Ignore Spell Failure 5%, Tenacious Spells||2nd|1st|Suel Arcanamach
9th|Ultimate Magus||Spont. Arc. Spells 1st, Prep. Arc. Spells 2nd, any Metamagic|7.5|Spell Power +1|Spell Focus (Abjuration)|2nd|2nd|Suel Arcanamach
10th|Abjurant Champion||+5 BAB, Combat Casting, Arc. Spells 1st|8.5|Abjurant Armor, Extended Abjuration||2nd|3rd|Suel Arcanamach
11th|Sublime Chord||Spont. Arc. Spells 3rd, Bardic Music|9|Bardic Music, Bardic Lore||2nd|5th|Sublime Chord
12th|Incantatrix||Arc. Spells 3rd, any Metamagic|9.5|Bonus Feat: Cooperative Spell|Practiced Spellcaster (Sublime Chord)|2nd|5th|Sublime Chord
13th|Mage of the Arcane Order||Cooperative Spell, any other Metamagic, Prep. Arc. Spells 2nd|10|Spellpool I||2nd|6th|Sublime Chord
14th|Sacred Exorcist||Good, Cast Dismissal|10.5|Exorcism, Turn Undead||2nd|6th|Sublime Chord
15th|Paragnostic Apostle||Spells 3rd|11|Holy Texts, Knowledge is Power, Lore|Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration)|2nd|7th|Sublime Chord
16th|Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil||Cast five Abjurations, two Abjurations 4th level or higher, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus (Abjuration), Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration)|11.5|Warding 1/day, Unimpeachable Abjuration, Red Veil||2nd|7th|Sublime Chord
17th|Fatespinner||Spells 4th|12|Spin Fate||2nd|8th|Sublime Chord
18th|Mindbender||Non-Good, Cast Charm Person|12.5|Telepathy|Spell Focus (Transmutation)|2nd|8th|Sublime Chord
19th|Archmage||Arc. Spells 7th, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus (any school) x2|13|High Arcana||2nd|9th|Sublime Chord
20th|Wayfarer Guide||Cast Teleport|13.5|Enhanced Capacity, Improved Range||2nd|9th|Sublime Chord[/table]
With alignment restrictions, you need to choose between Sacred Exorcist and Mindbender, since they're mutually exclusive, and take some other PrC.

Sublime Chord Caster level is 16, 17 if you take the Spell Power High Arcana. You have 4th through 9th level Arcane Spellcasting from the Bard, Sorcerer, and Wizard spell lists, plus 0th and 1st (2nd for Abjurations) level Wizard spells, 0th and 1st level Bard spells, and 1st through 3rd level spells of the Abjuration, Divination, Illusion, and Transmutation schools from the Wizard and Sorcerer spell list, and the ability to "call" 1st through 3rd level Sorcerer/Wizard spells with the Spellpool ability. You need 12 Int, but that's hardly burdensome. You won't have a ton of extra skill points to throw around, but you will have some. Other than that, well, 19 Cha is necessary to cast those spells, but you'll want more than that anyway.


Without Precocious Apprentice + Focused Specialist, MotAO is impossible (or annoying because you have to devote two levels of what could be Sublime Chord spellcasting to Wizard, losing 9th level spells, or somehow fit Arcane Preparation into this), but without MotAO you can ditch Cooperative Spell, ditch Chain Spell, ditch Incantatrix, and do something else. It would probably free up a lot of feats. You also can't use Ultimate Magus, which is annoying, because the Spell Power bit is so nice. I'm sure there are options for this, though.

A flaw makes some of this quite easy, two makes the entire build trivial, since you could fit Arcane Preparation in there.


I think what I like best about the character is that he's not too all over the place. He definitely has some themes going on there, with the heavy abjuration and the several divine classes (Crusader, Sacred Exorcist, Paragnostic Apostle). I wanted to put Divine Oracle, too, but getting Skill Focus (Knowledge (Religion)) wasn't going to happen. If it did, you could get Loremaster, though, which would be kind of neat, giving you four classes that give Bardic Knowledge/Lore. Might actually fit the theme better, hmm...

You're also a member of the Paragnostic Assembly, the Arcane Order, the Wayfarer's Guild, and the Sevenfold Veil. I don't believe there are any particular conflicts between these factions, though.

Also, to comment on the topic, which I forgot to do before: the UA Generic classes are specifically designed for new players. Assuming any but the most obvious of optimization means you shouldn't be using them.

Ravens_cry
2010-03-07, 11:27 PM
Also, to comment on the topic, which I forgot to do before: the UA Generic classes are specifically designed for new players. Assuming any but the most obvious of optimization means you shouldn't be using them.
They could be good as well experienced players who want more customization as well without getting into multiclassing.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-07, 11:29 PM
OK, but then only if you trust your players in which case the point of breakability is moot.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-07, 11:30 PM
That is amazing. Very impressive.

Devils_Advocate
2010-03-08, 05:25 AM
Now, the most broken issue I can see immediately is that as written, you can play a divine Spellcaster, wear armour, and take all your spells from the wizard list, and thus be all of the awesome.
All of what awesome? Like a Sorcerer, a Divine Spellcaster has a worse casting stat than a Wizard and limited spells known, but gets to cast its known spells spontaneously. It also gets fewer spell slots than a Sorcerer, though it does get bonus feats when a Wizard does. Like a Psion, it has no chance of spell failure from armor, but that's basically trivial next to the crazy stuff it can do with spells/powers. And given that it has only d4 hit dice, one good save, and no armor proficiency, it hardly has the Cleric's built-in defenses.

Personally, if I were gonna adapt the Generic Spellcaster class, I think that I'd get rid the whole "arcane and divine magic" business, which has always struck me as a bit silly, altogether. And make bonus spells and maximum level castable based on Wisdom and save DCs based on Charisma.

I guess you could just keep arcane spell failure as it is now, but I think that I'd prefer to change it to make casting a spell involve some sort of Dex-based check, so as to get this aspect to make any sense.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-03-08, 07:33 AM
All of what awesome?
...
I'm sorry, my slight irony wasn't very clear there.
Being able to use wiz spells while in armour isn't as impressive as being able to pick any spells from all lists. That's the other reason why I suggest that the selection of spells should be restricted to arcane and divine lists, depending on the caster.

It is absolutely not my intention to mix generic classes ith other classes. That's exactly not what they're for.

I also plan to make other class abilities from the PHB core classes (and maybe some other sources) available as bonus feats. Where should I draw the line on that?

magic9mushroom
2010-03-08, 07:48 AM
Something I should note.

With limited spells known, as the Spellcaster has, you cannot be Tier 1 barring shenanigans (like, for example, being able to spam Wish for some reason).

You may be able to duel and crush a Tier 1, but you are not a Tier 1 yourself.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-08, 12:11 PM
All of what awesome? Like a Sorcerer, a Divine Spellcaster has a worse casting stat than a Wizard and limited spells known, but gets to cast its known spells spontaneously. It also gets fewer spell slots than a Sorcerer, though it does get bonus feats when a Wizard does. Like a Psion, it has no chance of spell failure from armor, but that's basically trivial next to the crazy stuff it can do with spells/powers. And given that it has only d4 hit dice, one good save, and no armor proficiency, it hardly has the Cleric's built-in defenses.

Personally, if I were gonna adapt the Generic Spellcaster class, I think that I'd get rid the whole "arcane and divine magic" business, which has always struck me as a bit silly, altogether. And make bonus spells and maximum level castable based on Wisdom and save DCs based on Charisma.

I guess you could just keep arcane spell failure as it is now, but I think that I'd prefer to change it to make casting a spell involve some sort of Dex-based check, so as to get this aspect to make any sense.

1: HD doesn't make a fraggin difference in mid-level combat, it's the Con score that matters most.

2: The right spell selection renders every other class irrelevant (Divine has some of the best Buffs and Arcane has the best Battlefield Control).

3: Spells/day are not as exhaustive past level 7. If any spellcaster is running out of spells/day at that level, either they are doing something wrong or the DM is throwing more than 6 encounters/day at them (which actually hurts the noncasters a fair bit too).