Your strategy for taking back Azure City

[Vaarsuvius4181]

What or how would you do it?

[Asta Kask]

Take off and nuke the site from orbit.

[Sanguine]

Take off and nuke the site from orbit.

I think that might make taking the city back kinda hard.

[ThePhantasm]

I think that might make taking the city back kinda hard.

Skeptic.

......

On a more serious note, I'd do a lto of sabotage, creating confusion, generally making the city unlivable. At some point, after you blow up enough buildings, create enough of a racket, poison enough food, etc. the goblins are going to realize it isn't worth it, especially if you are using guerrilla warfare and can't be found.

[BRC]

Take off and nuke the site from orbit.
It's the only way too be sure.


Anyway, you'd want to stop other nations from recognizing it, and try to cause some internal divisions.

Hobgoblins are very proud, and consider themselves superior to Goblins. Exploit that, try to get a charismatic Hobgoblin to speak out against them venerating a Goblin, split the city into Pro-Redcloak and Anti-Redcloak camps. Even after Redcloak leaves you can do this, call Jirix a Coward who kneels to a Goblin, when the Dark One Clearly prefers Hobgoblins. Ask loudly and angrily why a city that is almost entierly Hobgoblin, and that was captured at the cost of thousands of Hobgoblin lives, should be considering a Goblin as it's hero.Talk up how Redcloak threw away Hobgoblin lives (Before his Epiphany).

Let internal divisions weaken the Hobgoblins, turn them against one another. If you play your cards right, you can get a full fledged civil war going, when it's over, invade, seizing the now-weakened city.

[The Dark Fiddler]

1) Find Munchkin.
2) Hire Munchkin.
3) Realize the city is now owned by a Munchkin, and as such I have no hopes or regaining it.
4) Cry. 5) ??? 6) Profit

[Conuly]

I can't help you here. I'm too busy trying to protect Gobbotopia from the insurgents. However, please note that I'm reading all your suggestions with great interest :smallbiggrin:

[Belkster11]

*Enters wearing Patton's uniform complete with a cigar in my mouth*

I'd recommend an attack from the inside. Gather all the prisoners possible and do a double-joint mission with the elves that's come:

1) Get Xykon out. That is of the highest priority.

2) Once he's out of the city, begin by assassinating as many high status Goblins as possible, poison their food supply if neccesary!

3) Do Guriella Warefare, attack armories and loot weapons of fallen Hobgoblin warriors. That is a must.

With this, I am certian we can take back Azure City. Now let's move, men!

[ScottishDragon]

1)get huge army
2)Get bard who put as much in diplomacy as possible
3)convince xykon that new army is better than old one but city is worth having.

[Snake-Aes]

1)get huge army
2)Get bard who put as much in diplomacy as possible
3)convince xykon that new army is better than old one but city is worth having.

Xykon already abandoned the hob army.

[ScottishDragon]

Xykon already abandoned the hob army.

then it's all the simpler

[krossbow]

Take off and nuke the site from orbit.


The area is swarming with hostiles and tons of desecrated zones. Simply Burning it to the group and rebuilding over the ashes is actually not too far fetched of an option.

[CrimsonAngel]

1. Obtain a disease that can be spread by A. urine B. Saliva or C. Blood.
2. Pee, spit, or bleed in the water and food supplies.
3. ???
4. Profit.

Cancers and skin eating viruses that can't be cured by magic are prefered.

[Orzel]

Free Poisoned Gouda.

[Malek2991]

Simple, once Redcloak and Xykon leave and the Cloister fades, I would simply use Familicide on Jirix after teleporting into the tower under the effect of Greater (better yet Supierior, but that's not a core spell) Invisibility. Familicide should massively reduce the numbers of Hobgoblins there making it much, much easier for an army to retake the city... as long as no one tells the Paladins...

[Wolfram]

I am inclined to go for an aquatic invasion... Somehow I don't think the Gobbos are too nautically orinetned. This would follow a long period of urban geurilla warfare.

The attack would be three pronged. The first (by magical and mundane means) would be a distraction outside the exterior walls (make them think an army is approaching off in the distance). I would couple that with high profile atacks by strike groups within the city. Then let the ships appear (and keep them hidden until the last second).

[derfenrirwolv]

Teleport neat the edge of the cloister, fireball the city, teleport out. You're not going to accomplish much else with an epic level sorcerer around unless you have your own level 18 plus mage to fight with.

[Snake-Aes]

Teleport neat the edge of the cloister, fireball the city, teleport out. You're not going to accomplish much else with an epic level sorcerer around unless you have your own level 18 plus mage to fight with.

That's why "remove the epic sorcerer" is a valid strategy, even if it just consists of waiting.

[TriForce]

1. Obtain a disease that can be spread by A. urine B. Saliva or C. Blood.
2. Pee, spit, or bleed in the water and food supplies.
3. ???
4. Profit.

Cancers and skin eating viruses that can't be cured by magic are prefered.

isnt it just easyer to obtain a disease that can be spread by.... i dunno... WATER?

[The Blackbird]

1) Find Munchkin.
2) Hire Munchkin.
3) Realize the city is now owned by a Munchkin, and as such I have no hopes or regaining it.
4) Cry. 5) ??? 6) Profit

This until step two, where munchkin=Pun Pun.

[AgentPaper]

1) "Pazuzu"
2) "Pazuzu"
3) "Pazuzu"

[Pokonic]

Free poison gouda

Its the only way, truly.:smallwink:

[Felyndiira]

Apocalypse from the Sky the entire city once the big three moves out of the area.

[multilis]

Kill Belkar. That will knock Mr. Scruffy out of his comfort zone.

Plan B: convince MitD playing tag with goblins is fun game.

[derfenrirwolv]

Suggestion to monster-san that Xykon is made out of stew.

[Tarnag40k]

Tungsten rod orbital bombardment

It's like nukes, with out the radiation.

Simply put, the tungsten can reach high speeds and creates a lot of heat with it. This heat upon impact would create a large destructive air wall that would topple build while releasing enough heat to vaporise human beings. I think it would still do the same to goblinoids.

[DueceEsMachine]

Tungsten rod orbital bombardment

It's like nukes, with out the radiation.

Simply put, the tungsten can reach high speeds and creates a lot of heat with it. This heat upon impact would create a large destructive air wall that would topple build while releasing enough heat to vaporise human beings. I think it would still do the same to goblinoids.

Oh, you mean like the ones our government it trying to build? :smallbiggrin:
Ah, over-inflated military budgets. Well, it should make for a good light show.

[Pyron]

Remember Gobbotopia's territory is not just Azure City, it's also the Blueriver Valley and Hobgoblin Fortress Cities. While Xykon is in the city and forcing the hobgoblin army in the sewers, these two areas (and not azure city) would be the targets of my attack - aerial attacks would be ideal.

I'd make sure that Redcloak/Jirix and the hobgoblin army is aware of this. Imagine what Xykon would do if the hobgoblins decide to leave their post to launch a counter offensive - or, imagine the hobgoblin morale if they see their leaders ignoring these attacks while they're forced to do sewer diving.

Alternatively, I'd hire necromancers to attack the Goblin Dan's restaurant chains - again, imagine an undead hydra with 20+ heads attacking the goblins who tortured it in life.

[slayerx]

First take care of any possible information leaks
*KO's Conuly*

Well aside from the usual freeing of slaves, i would target the goblin leadership and churches... Kill Jirix and the top leaders while making sure to kill as many clerics as possible and steal all scrolls of "Raise dead", "resurrection" and so forth to make sure they STAY dead...

With poor leadership, sow seeds of discontent using sorcerers or bards disguised as goblins... get the citizens of gobbotopia angry over the terrorist attacks and the poor leadership...

I would put up flyers in densely populated cities that read along the lines "City overrun by hobgoblins, innocent Citizens enslaved help the resistance fighters take back their city from the goblin scourge!" and "Tower once home to an epic level lich and a goblin high priest, now they have abandoned it, who knows what treasures may have been left behind!"... This is meant to attract any adventurers of varying levels to help the resistance... Adventurers will have to find their own way to get into the city and find the resistance (but that's just part of being an adventurer); might want to keep a look out or two on the outside to keep an eye out for such adventurers to make it easier

I'd send some elves to conduct some attacks on the villages in the southern valley... nothing too serious, start a few fires, kill some guards; just enough to get the hobgoblins to start sending more troops down their to spread their forces thinly

Send some rebels forces outside the city to try and stop traders from entering or exiting the city... this is to help cut of gobbotopia's trade


On hinjo's end... focus on rebuilding the army... once it is done set sail and set up a navel blockade outside the city; preferably far enough away so that the goblins do not even realize their is a blockade until.... make certain not to harm any non-goblin trade ships, do not want to risk starting a fight with another nation... This is meant to cut off trade which Gobbotopia may rely a lot on when it comes to supplies.

Hopefully at this point i would be able to convince a few of azure cities other allies... at which point we may be able to launch an all out attack... The azurites and Elves will attempt an assault by sea, attempting to land at the docks, while the other forces attempt a ground assault... might also steal a trick or two from Redcloak's playbook to summon up some "elementals"... insurgents and rebels will strike from within the city, still using guerrilla fighting to pick off goblins, especially goblins trying to switch between fronts; may use buildings as fortifications. In addition to the rebels, may try to use the mines to get allied military into the city

If gobbotopia breaks out into a revolt over poor leadership and continued attacks, may need to speed up the process of launching the full scale attack... will want to attack either during the revolt (taking advantage of the confusion), or right afterword (taking advantage of the weakened military due to in fighting)




Alternatively, I'd hire necromancers to attack the Goblin Dan's restaurant chains - again, imagine an undead hydra with 20+ heads attacking the goblins who tortured it in life.

Ya an undead hydra wouldn't have to worry about that whole Blood flow things... but i couldn't bring myself to target Goblin Dan

[DukeGod]

Send every low-level adventurer buffed and with epic magic items to war...watch it from high in the air with popcorn and recording on TeeVo to see it again sometime...

[Nimrod's Son]

set up a navel blockade outside the city
:redcloak: "So help me, if you make me erect a wall made of dead hobgoblins' bellybuttons around the city, I will find a way to make you pay."

[snafu]

Taking it by open force of arms will be extremely difficult. But the exiles have demonstrated capability in special ops. I'd follow on with this. Terrorism is the way forward here.

Someone proposed 'nuke the site from orbit', and while that's obviously impractical, it's still an interesting option. Most of the population of Gobbotopia at present is evil. There are plenty of spells which target evil. Can we get a few of those set up? Holy Smite: kills hobgoblins, leave buildings standing.

The trouble would be in getting enough high-level characters into the city to do the casting; shame. But then again, is even that necessary? Take a leaf from V's book and scribe out a few hundred Explosive Runes on rags; have a special ops team deliver them to the slaves, in whose hands they look just like typical slave apparel; leave the rest to them.

The trick is that hobgoblins have a simple concept of warfare. You and your guys here, the enemy and his guys there, now you fight. Set off a few explosions, cause a few mass casualties among the population, kill a whole lot of what passes for civilians among hobgoblins: what are they going to do? Lash out. Probably launch a few indiscriminate raids against nearby human settlements. That'll cost them their hard-earned relations with neighbouring powers.

You'll get internal dissent against the leadership that brought them away from their tribal raiding lifestyle where you could always see the enemy, and into the city where the enemy has no face and sets traps. The absentee leadership. Jirix will have trouble keeping a lid on things.

And before too long they'll work out that the attacks are being organised and supplied by the Azurite exiles, and might even send out an expedition to do something about them. Once they come out of their fortifications, you can fight them on your own terms. Wear them down. There's no way the fledgling goblin kingdom can support that kind of campaign for long, but goblin honour will demand that Something Be Done!

That's the trick to taking on a larger and more powerful enemy, if simply avoiding him is not an option. Provoke him. Make him overreach himself. Enrage him so that he makes mistakes. Bring him away from his place of strength, bring him to where you have traps ready, and many friends. Then you can fight him here, instead of having to go and fight him over there. And that's how you win.

[Ganurath]

As of right now?Find the phylactery, and hit Redcloak with a Sending offering a diplomatic meeting involving said item and the treatment of humans under the present goblinoid regime. Redcloak would have to show up, if only to get Xykon out of the city, and at that point negociations can begin for easing up on the slave labor. Redcloak will make a sarcastic remark about how he's surprised the whole city isn't being demanded, and that's when the bomb drops.

With the resources available, even with elven aid, there's no way that the resistance could retake the city. Even if the Azurites suffer no casualties and launch daily raids to free slaves, goblinoid reproduction and savage humanoid immigration ensures a higher growth rate, and the number of prisoners that can be rescued is finite. At the same time, however, Gobtopia is trying to transition to a peacetime leader, and for that to happen a solution needs to be reached that not only eliminates the threat of the resistance, but ensures that there wouldn't be any subsequent uprisings. If violence is pursued as an option, both sides lose. However, if the humans pursue diplomatic action to gain equal rights, they get a semblance of their old lives back, and the goblinoid administration can claim the moral high ground by contrasting goblinoid mercy to the slaughter of Redcloak's hometown.

With word getting around that human Azurites can walk the streets of their home city with uncovered heads, the refugees that were dropped off in other nations by the fleet will begin a gradual return as mistrust is overcome by cautious optimism. Eventually a human ghetto will form in a sizable chunk of Azure City, since Gobtopia spans a much larger region than the blue town's original territory. Jirix's title suggests a democratic government, so eventually human presence would be able to elect a human governor.

[pendell]

Wait until Xykon is gone, conduct selective assassinations of the leadeship,
provoke civil war and discord between different factions. Find some weaksauce pretender and offer to put him on the throne of Gobbotopia in exchange for allying with my armies. The city attacked from without and from within, the humans move in with a gobbo figurehead as king. Then find some pretext (which won't be long in coming once the figurehead realizes he's a bird in a gilded cage) to pension him off to a villa far away (if we're feeling nice) or simply kill him (if we're feeling nasty).

The problem with this solution, from the viewpoint of the AC human population, is that it means creating a new society where humans and goblins co-habit the same city.

What alternatives are there? The hobgoblin city won't easily fall to a direct military assault. Absent collaboration among dissident hobgoblin factions, nearly impossible.

If you want to eliminate goblinoid presence from AC altogether, these are the options as I see them:

1) Follow plan above, then betray your allies and kill them all once you've got a large enough force in the city.

2) Build a human/elf/whatever army of overwhelming military power, and stage a conventional siege. It could take years, tens of thousands of casualties, and be a logistical nightmare. Since the Azurites probably won't be able to go Ghenghis Khan and conquer the logistics they need, that will mean coalition building and lots of alliance. Conquer the city, kill the inhabitants, rebuild. Not easy at all, but superpowers in the ancient and medieval world did it to Constantinople and Jerusalem.

3) Operation Endlosung: Use superweapons to annihilate the city, then rebuild on the ruins. My preference would be a zombie plague of some kind. Problem is this approach is not LG by any stretch of the imagination. I'm not sure the Sapphire Guard would go for that .. and if they would, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to help them do it.

The operation with the highest probability of success with minimum resource expenditure requires traitors within the city. This will require giving the traitors and the other goblins rights within the city after the war -- because no goblin will betray "Our City" if they believe the Sapphire Guard will kill them no matter what they do.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Tarnag40k]

Oh, you mean like the ones our government it trying to build? :smallbiggrin:
Ah, over-inflated military budgets. Well, it should make for a good light show.

Yup. And it's not neccesarily over inflated. It solves the one weakness of MOAB, without resorting to nuclear weapons or violating SALT II.

Think about this way, you now have a weapon that can vaporise large miltary installations without having to put aircraft near them, nor having to deal with the nasty after-effects of a nuclear explosion.

[Teddy]

Got this idea from the roleplaying thread a while ago:

Get scroll of Major Creation.
Get volunteering low level wizard or sorcerer.
Get said scroll plus caster into Azure City.
Get as many "good guys" as possible out of Azure City.
Have the caster use the scroll to create 9 cubic feet of uranium 238.
BOOOOOOOOOOM!
No more goblins.

The fact that the city and the surrounding landscape will be turned into a radioactive wasteland may be a problem though...


Yup. And it's not neccesarily over inflated. It solves the one weakness of MOAB, without resorting to nuclear weapons or violating SALT II.

Think about this way, you now have a weapon that can vaporise large miltary installations without having to put aircraft near them, nor having to deal with the nasty after-effects of a nuclear explosion.

Isn't there an international law against space warfare? Just asking...

[veti]

First: let's wait until we're sure Team Evil is out of the way. No point trying anything until we're reasonably certain that Xykon, Redcloak and/or Tsukiko aren't going to show up and stitch us right up. Then...


Taking it by open force of arms will be extremely difficult. But the exiles have demonstrated capability in special ops. I'd follow on with this. Terrorism is the way forward here.

Terrorism is going to be a part of the strategy, if only because we can't stop it - the Resistance will keep going whether we want it or not - but really, I wouldn't pin much hope on it destabilising Gobbotopia. Hobgoblin culture is basically tailor-made to combat terrorism already: it's repressive, militaristic, well tuned to react quickly to small-scale local threats. After all, "terrorism" is not very different from "being preyed on by adventurers", which is their normal condition.

Decapitation: assassinating Jirix (and keeping him dead) would be useful, but not easy. The aforementioned militaristic society tends to take very good care of its high command. It would be a high-risk mission for a mid-level PC party - combine Teams Peregrine and Harrier and I guess you might have a fair chance of success, but also a fair chance of losing the entire force in the process. And even if it can be done at reasonable cost, it still wouldn't lead directly to the fall of Gobbotopia. There are plenty more mid-level hobgoblins (to say nothing of other goblin races) out there.

If the priority is to take AC back as soon as possible: I would start by persuading some neighbouring neutral countries to attack the hobgoblins' original mountain homelands (for their own territorial gain). Those areas are hugely depopulated just now. Jirix would have to respond by sending a large part of the army back, leaving the city itself weakened and within the grasp of a suitably-organised surprise attack. Once you've launched your attack and seized some key points, tell the bulk of hobgoblins remaining in the city that they can either stay and die, or go back to the mountains where they might yet have a chance to save their original homelands. Maybe they won't all go for it, but many will. They'll be homesick.

If you want to take a longer-term approach - lower cost in lives, but it'll take 5-10 years - then: (LONG)
I think the solution would involve breaking Gobbotopia up. Exploit its internal divisions. It's a big place - different parts of the empire will already be looking at the world in quite different ways. Without effective nationalistic propaganda, they won't hang together.

For instance: if you're a hobgoblin living in the Blueriver Valley, then your concerns are the concerns of a plantation owner. You want fertile land (the more the better), and slaves to do the actual work (because that part is no fun at all). Most of your children will probably go off to the city to seek their fortune, but you'll want to keep enough at home to pass on the farm and keep the slaves in line.

If you're living in the mountain fortresses, then the military has left you behind and moved to the city. Either you need to start a second army, or society will shift towards a more rugged, individualistic, frontier-like existence, like the American West in the 19th century.

But if you've made the move to the city - life is cushy. Soft beds, solid buildings, slaves... all you have to do is exactly what you're told, pick out a mate, and settle down to raise rugrats. You have free time - probably the first hobgoblins in the history of the world for whom that's true. Some of you will start producing art, philosophy, drama, poetry. There will be schools - which means teachers, books, a whole "service industry" sector that is quite new to hobgoblin culture. Entertainment. Gangs and gang wars will start, over turf or mates or the correct way to pronounce "coconut". Eventually some will start to question the need for a strict militaristic society (although the ongoing terrorism will help to justify that), and things will begin - slowly at first, but increasingly - to loosen up.

By this time - maybe five years down the line, given the speed of goblin development - you've got three very different societies.

The urban sophisticates of the city will sneer contemptuously at the hicks of the countryside, mingled with awe and a little horror at the (unchanging) harsh militarism of the mountains.

The countryside hobgoblins will lord it over their little domains, feeling increasingly detached from the city (as it mostly ignores them, because basically farming is too boring to care about unless you have to do it). They would develop an attitude of self-sufficiency, clinging on to their land and resenting anything (such as military service) that drew them away from it.

And the mountain hobbos - they'll still be the same rigid, regimented society they've always been. Much weaker, until they breed back up to their former numbers, but still living in the same unforgiving environment. As they come to realise what's going on in the city, a healthy contempt will develop on both sides. Words like "decadent" or, depending on their educational level, "*******" will start to be used.

At this point, the three parts will have little loyalty to one another. So when your merchants appear and start to offer the farmers good prices for their produce, they'll sell to you. And the city will start to get hungry. Not too hungry, you don't want everyone to know it's an emergency (because that pulls people together), you just want to raise prices a bit and create a general impression of scarcity, where some people have plenty while others starve.

Crime skyrockets. Importing food on a large scale is impractical - short of some revolution in agricultural methods, you can't simply increase the world output of food to keep up with the burgeoning population of goblins - which means world food prices will rocket anyway. The only real option Jirix will have, at this point, is to go to war - to claim more farmlands. Then - with the high command distracted and most of the military occupied - the Azurites would launch their counter-attack on the city.

[Asta Kask]

Raise an army of rats and have them eat all their stored food. Mass exodus follows naturally.

[Creed]

well...this is a tough one
being inside the city, the hobs have a distinct advantange;walls
the Azure Army (or whatever it is called) could however turn this into an advantage for us, the good guys in two ways:

A) sneak an army in, maybe threw a sewer or something. the hobs then are trapped inside their own wall, kinda unrealistic, but as the hobs cant beat us in a fair fight possible, (they won the first time cause of the lich man Xykon)

B) use siege towers to scale the wall. use fireballs and lightning bolts and other big blowy-uppy spells to destroy the ramps and stairs leading up the inside of the wall. all of the sudden, the hobs are surrounded by a wall, with no chance of escape:smallamused:

[veti]

B) use siege towers to scale the wall. use fireballs and lightning bolts and other big blowy-uppy spells to destroy the ramps and stairs leading up the inside of the wall. all of the sudden, the hobs are surrounded by a wall, with no chance of escape:smallamused:

Why on earth wouldn't you want them to escape? When the enemy runs away, that's called "winning". Every hobgoblin who's running away is a hobgoblin who isn't trying to break a morningstar over your head.

If I were attacking, I'd give them every opportunity to run away. Indeed, as outlined in my previous post, I'd go out of my way to give them extra reasons and incentives to do it. The object of the exercise is to retake the city, not to gain as many XP by committing genocide on as large a scale as possible.

[Creed]

Why on earth wouldn't you want them to escape? When the enemy runs away, that's called "winning". Every hobgoblin who's running away is a hobgoblin who isn't trying to break a morningstar over your head.

If I were attacking, I'd give them every opportunity to run away. Indeed, as outlined in my previous post, I'd go out of my way to give them extra reasons and incentives to do it. The object of the exercise is to retake the city, not to gain as many XP by committing genocide on as large a scale as possible.

say your plan works. then all the hobgoblins run away. every last one survives. that means each and every one of them is now has a grudge. living hobgoblins can tell orcs/trolls/etc. that we stole azure city back. lots of humanoids attacking azure city after that. your idea works on short-term, but the long term is that azure city would then be attacked by a larger force in the forseeable future

[Snake-Aes]

say your plan works. then all the hobgoblins run away. every last one survives. that means each and every one of them is now has a grudge. living hobgoblins can tell orcs/trolls/etc. that we stole azure city back. lots of humanoids attacking azure city after that. your idea works on short-term, but the long term is that azure city would then be attacked by a larger force in the forseeable future

Tell trolls and orcs? They aren't buddy-buddy, those orcs and trolls are just as likely to eat the hobs anyway.

Letting the monsters run away is rarely done because it's the best course of action. If they are a raiding group, they'll come back. If they're guards, they'll come back with reinforcements and alarms. If they're wandering randomly, they'd stumble into someone else. If they're caring for their homes, they won't run away. Each calls for a different treatment.

[slayerx]

say your plan works. then all the hobgoblins run away. every last one survives. that means each and every one of them is now has a grudge. living hobgoblins can tell orcs/trolls/etc. that we stole azure city back. lots of humanoids attacking azure city after that. your idea works on short-term, but the long term is that azure city would then be attacked by a larger force in the forseeable future
Except it will take a few decades for them to sure up the the numbers
The goblins would not retreat until after they are loosing the battle, as in after thousands have been killed... if they are really loosing the battle that badly then their numbers will likely have dwindled so much that they won't be able to wage a serious offensive in the near future... This gives the azurites time to rebuild the defenses, rebuild early warning beacons, and make certain to enlist a larger army from the civilian population. one of the major reasons the azurites loss the battle is because they had only one day to prepare for such a massive army; this time they'll have more like 10+ years... the other major reason was the contributions of Xykon and Redcloak, which i doubt will be there again; without them, a land assault on azure city may require having 3 times as many soldiers as azure city has

[Acero]

Locate City bomb

[PallElendro]

I would take it with some epic-level paladins, some rangers, and a fighter or two.

[slayerx]

Heh, if we were talking about the possibility of calling in epic characters, i might just leave it to the epic sorcerer...

Use spells like Dragon Strike, Pestilence, Rain of Fire, Dire Winter, Eidolon, and mass frog... you can do a hell of a lot of damage with epic spells; though this might be getting to evil for my tastes

[Beorn080]

For eliminating gobbos, Cloudkill during the initial fights, which would require a mass of gobbos, simply wait for a nice meeting such as this, then, when they spotted the caster, run back through staggered permancied Symbol of Death/Insanity/Sleep to continuously kill or disable the following goblins. Insanity would be your best bet, since if you get a good enough wave coming behind you they would all be forced into it by those behind them. Few more Cloudkills and possibly Holy Words if you have the clerics and your set. Really, its an army of mostly lvl 1 warriors, and AFAWK, pretty much only team evil is really that high of a level.

To warm em up, continued use of Drums of Panic scattered about the city for the previous weeks, really start to freak them out.

[Souhiro]

Easy task:


- F a m i l i c i d e.



On other way, just bombing it from above with griffons or metallium dragons.

[veti]

Let's face it, if the Azurites had epic-level spells and characters at their disposal, they wouldn't have lost the city in the first place.

So whaddya say we try for a strategy that doesn't require anyone above, say, 12th level on the attacking side (and not more than half a dozen characters above 9th). And no epic-level scrolls or artifacts, either.

[Asta Kask]

There's no army that can't be displaced by a bigger army.

[Scarlet Knight]

1) Purchase one mithril shirt
2) catapult said shirt into city
3) watch the fun as the goblins kill each other.
4) send in the hafling to mop up.

Hey, it works in the movies!

[DeltaEmil]

1) Purchase one mithril shirt
2) catapult said shirt into city
3) watch the fun as the goblins kill each other.
4) send in the hafling to mop up.

Hey, it works in the movies!Which movie? And who cares about the one or two-hundred goblins, if you need to get rid of at least ten thousand disciplined and trained hobgoblins with enough priests to make them get back to work immediately (either completely healed, or with the craving for brains)?

[rewinn]

Three words:

Trojan Gouda Cheese.

[Vaarsuvius4181]

Skeptic.

......

On a more serious note, I'd do a lto of sabotage, creating confusion, generally making the city unlivable. At some point, after you blow up enough buildings, create enough of a racket, poison enough food, etc. the goblins are going to realize it isn't worth it, especially if you are using guerrilla warfare and can't be found.

They tried guerilla warfare. Didnt work out so well.

[snafu]

So whaddya say we try for a strategy that doesn't require anyone above, say, 12th level on the attacking side (and not more than half a dozen characters above 9th). And no epic-level scrolls or artifacts, either.

Well, my plan of using terrorism to foment dissatisfaction with Jirix's leadership and provoke him into leading an expeditionary force out into harm's way required a ready supply of Explosive Runes. Third level. Average damage when triggered: 6d6 to the one who triggers it and half that (on a reflex save) to anyone within ten feet. For the average hobgoblin in the street that's plenty of overkill. 314 square feet of instant death when a hobgoblin simply glances at a symbol scrawled on a rag in the gutter.

These are so cheap V uses them as pranks. A fifth level wizard can make one of these every day. An eighth level wizard can make three. That's a pretty respectable output for a clandestine bomb-making workshop.

Once a few dozen of these have gone off, gibbed some women and children, and caused general mayhem among the hogoblins Jirix will have to act. He'll blame the Azurite exiles (he's right) and march off to teach them a lesson, giving them a much easier fight; the hobgoblins will be the ones with the logistical problems and the expensive supply lines, and they'll be outside their huge fortified city, and he'll have to leave behind a lot of the army as a garrison anyway. Or alternatively, he'll blame saboteurs among the human slave population (he's also right) and massacre them all, losing the goblin nation a useful workforce and all its friends among its human neighbours and seriously destabilising it long term.

Either is good.

If you're a real ruthless melon farmer, anyway. Maybe the Azurite exiles will hesitate to view the slave population as expendable patsies. Well, that's a real shame. Enjoy your new lives in the Elflands, guys.

[veti]

Well, my plan of using terrorism to foment dissatisfaction with Jirix's leadership and provoke him into leading an expeditionary force out into harm's way required a ready supply of Explosive Runes. Third level. Average damage when triggered: 6d6 to the one who triggers it and half that (on a reflex save) to anyone within ten feet. For the average hobgoblin in the street that's plenty of overkill. 314 square feet of instant death when a hobgoblin simply glances at a symbol scrawled on a rag in the gutter.

That's feasible from a cost perspective, but it does involve targeting an awful lot of innocents. Including (as you note) quite a high chance that the human captives remaining in Gobbotopia will be massacred in reprisals.

Also, it relies on Jirix being dumb enough to lead his army off on a distant campaign with extended supply lines. If you were in Jirix's position, I bet you could come up with a less risky solution than that. Possibly involving sympathetic adventuring parties (evil-aligned, or even good- or neutral-aligned but outraged by the terrorist tactics).

[nerd-7i+e]

Set tons of traps and ambushes along the sewers. As the hobgoblins explore them, they'll set them off. Make it increasingly clear that there will always be traps. At this point, Jirix (or Redcloak, if he's still around, but he prefferably won't be) will be faced with a decision.

A) Stop looking for the phylactery. You make the hobgoblins happy because they no longer feel like kamikazes on a wild goose chase, but on the other hand Xykon leaves Redcloak. At the very least, Redcloak will impeach Jirix from office.

B) Keep looking for the phylactery. Rebellion among hobgoblins skyrockets, and Jirix will be forced to make one Hobgoblin fight another. Given the hobgoblin mentality that shouldn't be very popular. Jirix is effectively facing a never-ending flood.

Jirix will realize that he is between Scylla and Charybdis. I'm not sure what he'd do, but one way or another we'd win.

[snafu]

Also, it relies on Jirix being dumb enough to lead his army off on a distant campaign with extended supply lines. If you were in Jirix's position, I bet you could come up with a less risky solution than that. Possibly involving sympathetic adventuring parties (evil-aligned, or even good- or neutral-aligned but outraged by the terrorist tactics).

Strategically, I agree, Jirix's best move against this plan would be to sit tight. He has plenty of hobgoblins, what does he care if he loses a few to a petty street bombing campaign? Statistically more hobgoblins are probably killed in bar fights, or crushed by goods wagons, or accidentally fall into the obligatory sewer-themed dungeon. It's an insignificant nuisance. Ignore it.

But I don't think hobgoblins will think that way. They've only just moved into the city; all the rest of their lives they've been savages. They're under attack and they won't want to put up with it, they'll want to do something about it. They'll want to fight, just like they always have done. Not stay in the city fearful that any piece of rubbish in the street might explode violently if looked at in the wrong way!

Now a strong leader could overrule this; Redcloak would do just that, he'd see it for the ruse it is, and Xykon simply wouldn't care. But I don't see Jirix as being a strong leader. His authority is dubious; it isn't his own, it's delegated to him by Redcloak. Once there's a substantial public demand for action, will he be able to refuse it for long? I don't think so. I think he'll be weak. He'll dither for a while. Then eventually I think he'll cave in to his people's demands and organise an expedition, and send it out. And it'll be out in foreign lands at the end of a long, vulnerable and terribly expensive supply line. Exactly where the Azurites want it.

edit: Ooh. Idea. Does anybody among the slaves have a Ranger level?

Attach the Explosive Runes to an Animal Messenger. Then you don't have to do indiscriminate terrorism, you can do targeted killings. The top leadership are probably capable of shrugging off 6d6 damage, but you should still be able to knock some decent holes in the civic administration.

[Snake-Aes]

Attach the Explosive Runes to an Animal Messenger. Then you don't have to do indiscriminate terrorism, you can do targeted killings. The top leadership are probably capable of shrugging off 6d6 damage, but you should still be able to knock some decent holes in the civic administration.

the druids with pointy sticks won't be happy.

Taking AC back relies on two things: Getting Xykon out and dispersing the hobs. There's just no possible strategy involving relying on xykon to do anything other than completely razing the area into oblivion, which is not quite the good idea. Plus he'll likely raze whoever made him raze the city too... just let him go. If that means giving him the philactery, then so be it.

dispersing the hobs won't be much easy... They are naturally disciplined enough that trying to confuse and scare won't work unless they're being overwhelmed in genocidal levels.

[KiwiImperator]

Adventurers. With Xykon and Redcloak leaving in short order, you've got a city full of low level hobgoblins. Throw some medium level PCs at them and they'll saw through them like a blowtorch through Gouda.

[Big Hungry Joe]

Yeah, I'd do a variant of Belkar's tavern note that got yik yok yak yak (or whatever his name was) killed. Just put up fliers everywhere about how much XP can be had in Azure City, and then use the fleet - which I think is empty now anyway given V's epic teleport to that elven island - to set up free ferries from all relevant ports to the Azure City area. Boatloads of greedy adventurers should scour the place clean in short order.

[Hurkyl]

Yeah, I'd do a variant of Belkar's tavern note that got yik yok yak yak (or whatever his name was) killed. Just put up fliers everywhere about how much XP can be had in Azure City, and then use the fleet - which I think is empty now anyway given V's epic teleport to that elven island - to set up free ferries from all relevant ports to the Azure City area. Boatloads of greedy adventurers should scour the place clean in short order.
Next challenge: how to take back Azure City from the hordes of greedy adventurers who just founded New Mos Eisley.

[ClockShock]

Next challenge: how to take back Azure City from the hordes of greedy adventurers who just founded New Mos Eisley.

Trick question.
A New Mos Eisley would be too cool to take back.

[slayerx]

Next challenge: how to take back Azure City from the hordes of greedy adventurers who just founded New Mos Eisley.

you tell them that the quest completion experience is worth for freeing the city is a lot of points and the quest is not completed till the azurites are back in charge

[Vaarsuvius4181]

Trick question.
A New Mos Eisley would be too cool to take back.

Got a point there.

[veti]

Next challenge: how to take back Azure City from the hordes of greedy adventurers who just founded New Mos Eisley.

No need. If they were looking for a place to settle down, they wouldn't be adventurers. When there's no more hobbos to kill, they'll move on in search of new XP.

Edit: The only downside of this plan (that I can see) is that it involves turning large parts of the city into charred ruins. (It might also not be too good for the slave population, but with a bit of co-ordination the Resistance could protect them from the worst of it.)

[littlequietguy]

Take off and nuke the site from orbit.

I came to this thread thinking to make the exact same joke.

[Souhiro]

At first, I still I'm a pro-user of familicide That would erase the menace, and next you do an über-epic quest in order to cleanse your sins. That would be awesome.


But I dissagree with those that say that Gobbos are disciplined soldiers. They're just like school bullies: Their guts is their number (At my school, a bully ran scared of two geeks, just TWO, looking for his group) they didn't build a new prison... they even didn't make a new sign, just write "azure Our city prison"

They aren't disciplined soldiers, nor architects, nor philosofers, nor poets, and they are not in a golden-age civilization. the most Gobbotopia could be is like Isla Tortuga, at the Pirates of the Caribbean movies: a haven.

[DeltaEmil]

But I dissagree with those that say that Gobbos are disciplined soldiers. They're just like school bullies: Their guts is their number (At my school, a bully ran scared of two geeks, just TWO, looking for his group) they didn't build a new prison... they even didn't make a new sign, just write "azure Our city prison"

They aren't disciplined soldiers, nor architects, nor philosofers, nor poets, and they are not in a golden-age civilization. the most Gobbotopia could be is like Isla Tortuga, at the Pirates of the Caribbean movies: a haven.

But I dissagree with those that say that Gobbos are disciplined soldiers. They're just like school bullies: Their guts is their number (At my school, a bully ran scared of two geeks, just TWO, looking for his group) they didn't build a new prison... they even didn't make a new sign, just write "azure Our city prison"

They aren't disciplined soldiers, nor architects, nor philosofers, nor poets, and they are not in a golden-age civilization. the most Gobbotopia could be is like Isla Tortuga, at the Pirates of the Caribbean movies: a haven.We're talking about Hobgoblins. The ones who are defined as being militaristic, organized, are willing to charge themselves to death against giant soldiers with great cleave feats so as to provide a ramp for unholy warriors, are naturally more tougher than humans, have a good grasp of tactics and strategy, and under competent leadership are the deciding factor who can overwhelm any opposition.

Normal goblins and bugbears will still be a minority in occupied Azure City/Gobbotopia.

[Garwain]

I'd say concentrate on the water. The sewer system is being searched for the phylactery, so it cant be hard to take out the daily search party.

Just don't get lost in the labyrinth...

[snafu]

I'd say concentrate on the water. The sewer system is being searched for the phylactery, so it cant be hard to take out the daily search party.

This wouldn't much help retake the city, but it would certainly disrupt Team Evil's plans and keep Xykon from regaining his phylactery for a longer period.

A safer approach might be to seed the sewers with cheap plastic imitations of the Phylactery of Xykon.

With V's favourite spell inscribed on them for good measure.

[Scarlet Knight]

Which movie? And who cares about the one or two-hundred goblins, if you need to get rid of at least ten thousand disciplined and trained hobgoblins with enough priests to make them get back to work immediately (either completely healed, or with the craving for brains)?

"Return of the King"
One mithril shirt caused an entire tower of goblins and Urak Hai to kill each other, leaving just a few for Sam to mop up. And we all know how much more efficient at killing Belkar is than a gardener like Sam.

(The book & cartoon had several similar scenes. Goblins. orcs, Urak Hai, evil humans, didn't matter much.)

Killing is what they do, we just have to provide the spark. And whenever a cleric is killed, the undead he controls will be free to join in.

[Kish]

At first, I still I'm a pro-user of familicide That would erase the menace,

...and by that, you mean "kill all the hobgoblins personally related to the hobgoblin you cast it on, each time you cast it, retrieving Azure City in probably only a little longer than it would have taken you to do the same casting Fireball, assuming you have an unlimited number of castings of any spell you want to cast..."

and next you do an über-epic quest in order to cleanse your sins.

And fail abjectly because you don't actually believe you did anything wrong (or less than "awesome").

Then you go to one of the Lower Planes for eternity, barring someone splicing your apparently-ridiculously-epic soul to the next sap they want to corrupt, in which case you go to one of the Lower Planes for almost-eternity with vacation time.

[Tarnag40k]

Isn't there an international law against space warfare? Just asking...

SALT II

which only goes against nuclear weapons being dropped from orbit. Anything conventional is still allowed. Now back to the topic at hand.

[hamishspence]

Salt II isn't the only one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty

[Graymayre]

Simple. I'd go to a plane that is identical to that one in every respect with the exception of one trait.

In this plane, the goblins are willing to give the city over to the first person that comes from another plane and politely asks to rule it.

[Kish]

Simple. I'd go to a plane that is identical to that one in every respect with the exception of one trait.

In this plane, the goblins are willing to give the city over to the first person that comes from another plane and politely asks to rule it.
And five minutes later, you'd discover that the reason for the difference is that Redcloak had found out that Xykon planned to leave most of the hobgoblins alone, but kill whomever Redcloak left in charge right before leaving.

[Graymayre]

And five minutes later, you'd discover that the reason for the difference is that Redcloak had found out that Xykon planned to leave most of the hobgoblins alone, but kill whomever Redcloak left in charge right before leaving.

If that's the case then I'll choose one that doesn't have that problem :smallsmile:

[Kish]

I meant, Xykon would inform you of this fact. And afterward you wouldn't be in any shape to try again. :smalltongue:

[Asta Kask]

This wouldn't much help retake the city, but it would certainly disrupt Team Evil's plans and keep Xykon from regaining his phylactery for a longer period.

Why is this a good thing? Wouldn't you want the Epic Lich Sorcerer out of the city as soon as you can? I'd join in the hunt and offer it to him in exchange for Azure City.

[Snake-Aes]

Why is this a good thing? Wouldn't you want the Epic Lich Sorcerer out of the city as soon as you can? I'd join in the hunt and offer it to him in exchange for Azure City.

Then he maximize-meteor-swarms your face and take it anyway.
He is not attached to AC at all either.

[Asta Kask]

Then he maximize-meteor-swarms your face and take it anyway.
He is not attached to AC at all either.

That's why I speak to him via Sending.

[Procyonpi]

1. Until Xykon is dead (as in, phylactery destroyed, lich destroyed... I realize he's already undead), taking back the city is pretty pointless... even if you got him away and liberated the city, and even if he didn't take it back immediately... an epic lich of lvl 27+ could just pop back in and re-take the city because he was bored. And we all know how easily Xykon gets bored.
2. Eliminating Xykon probably involves the MitD in some way, shape, or form. O-Chul?
3. Before Xykon is eliminated, continued guerrilla warfare against the occupying force is will probably make the eventual invasion easier.
4. After that, a naval blockade and economic sabotage campaign is probably required before a straight-out invasion.

[Scarlet Knight]

1. Until Xykon is dead (as in, phylactery destroyed, lich destroyed... I realize he's already undead), taking back the city is pretty pointless... even if you got him away and liberated the city, and even if he didn't take it back immediately... an epic lich of lvl 27+ could just pop back in and re-take the city because he was bored. And we all know how easily Xykon gets bored.


I disagree: because Xykon gets bored, he won't re-take the city.

:xykon: "meh, killed a city full of paladins before, what else is there to do...."

[Procyonpi]

I disagree: because Xykon gets bored, he won't re-take the city.

:xykon: "meh, killed a city full of paladins before, what else is there to do...."

Yeah but he's also trying to take over the world...

[KyrtFurey]

What or how would you do it?

As things stand...I wouldn't.

The city is lost and under Goblin control.
Its population is increasing and it has gained recognition from its neighbours.
The original inhabitants are scattered and its leaders and a fair chunk of the population are half a world away.

So....unless they have an epic caster who is willing and able to teleport another army here, they have no support, no backup and no troops.

The Elves can make trouble but unless something radical happens, theres not much that can be done.

However, that would probably make a bad story.

EJL

[DeltaEmil]

Stalling the retrieval of Xykon's phylactery by killing hobgoblin search partys and giving out fakes of it to confuse and prolong is actually a good idea. Sure, he'll stay longer, which would be bad, as there's nobody who can defeat him in a fight, but Xykon's anger will increase, and he'll lash out towards those who have failed him for the last time...

Heck, who knows, perhaps Xykon will actually return with an epic spell to destroy occupied Azure City/Gobbotopia just to make Redcloak cry himself to sleep, even after they've found the phylactery and returned it to him.

Angering Xykkon is the worst thing you can do in this situation. And if you can make it look like it's the fault of the goblinoids, then victory is assured.

Just hope that Xykon really won't destroy the entire city just out of spite and malice towards Redcloak. Else, everybody loses...

[Beorn080]

I just realized the biggest weakness of Azure city, it has no internal food production.

Even goblins have to eat, simply prevent anyone from getting supplies into the city. I somehow doubt that they have enough clerics to continuously create food for 20000+ hobgoblins, and a blockade isn't too intensive to do. There's the mine road, the harbor, and the plains, and only the harbor realistically has the ability to supply a city that size, especially if you take out the wagons well out from the city. Heck, even with create food, I doubt hobgoblins would stick around long without meat.

It won't even piss off Xykon right now, since he doesn't eat and would just zombify them all anyway.

[Kirgoth]

1. Wait till Redcloak and Xylon have left
2. Dominate or Kill/Impersonate the leaders who remain
3. change the goblins alignments
* Sanctify the Wicked spell + diamonds
* Repeated diplomacy
* Emissary of Barachiel
* Other ways
4. Convert to worship of good gods
5. Have 100+ hobgoblins become paladins and wear azure cloaks

[Draconi Redfir]

pssshh. forget all this "takeing back" buisness.


i'd go in there with my tribe of Bugbears, and set up a Bugbear blackops, blacksmiths, schools, and if at all possible, Elvin outreach programs. my tribe of bugbears has good conections with Elves. we can be the meidium between the Elves and the Goblins. though that might mean risking the loss of Cliffport.

[Souhiro]

Well, someone said that hob-gobbos are a organized tribe. they're willingly to fight to the death... well, we can use a few tricks:

Ah) Capture / Charm / Kill Jiryx.
Bee) Impersonate him.
Cee) Do a Jihad-Jike war, and send the 99% of Hobbos into the mouth of a black dragon.
Dee) Make a contest with the 99% of remaining Hobbos. One of them must hold his breath for 1 hour.
Eh) Send a party of low-level adventurers to kill the remaining 0,01% of the original Hobbos population.


And there is the other way:
http://usuarios.multimania.es/souhiro/matar.php?victima=Jiryx%0D%0AHobgoblin+Warrior+%23 1%0D%0AHobgoblin+Warrior+%232%0D%0AHobgoblin+Warri or+%233%0D%0A++++++++++++++++++.

[Kish]

Well, someone said that hob-gobbos are a organized tribe.
Hobgoblins are Usually Lawful Evil. They're also as intelligent as humans. For some reason, when you're not basing your arguments on "I have as much epic-level magic as I want," you seem to be basing them on, "my enemy is stupid to the point of near-mindlessness."

[Teddy]

I just realized the biggest weakness of Azure city, it has no internal food production.

Even goblins have to eat, simply prevent anyone from getting supplies into the city. I somehow doubt that they have enough clerics to continuously create food for 20000+ hobgoblins, and a blockade isn't too intensive to do. There's the mine road, the harbor, and the plains, and only the harbor realistically has the ability to supply a city that size, especially if you take out the wagons well out from the city. Heck, even with create food, I doubt hobgoblins would stick around long without meat.

It won't even piss off Xykon right now, since he doesn't eat and would just zombify them all anyway.

With internal, do you mean within it's walls or within the country? Azure City, with its half a million of human population, managed to sustain itself at least partially, so the 20000+ hobgoblins should be able to sustain themselves pretty well as soon as they get their agriculture going.

[Ancalagon]

But you have to consider that Azure City had established agriculture, established animal-herding, and established trade-realations.

Gobbotopia had nothing of that from the beginning.

All the infrastructure that allowed Azure City to sustain its population was mostly gone or was at least not used by the goblins. So the Gobbos basically are a poor village that can pick from lots of empty houses. Everything else has to get created basically from scratch or at least has to get adjusted and organised.
The fields might still be there but someone has to attend to them. And to the mill. And bakery. Etc.

PS: Souhiro, could you please resize to a smaller size your epic-sized pictures before you post them? ;)

[DeltaEmil]

But you have to consider that Azure City had established agriculture, established animal-herding, and established trade-realations.

Gobbotopia had nothing of that from the beginning.

All the infrastructure that allowed Azure City to sustain its population was mostly gone or was at least not used by the goblins. So the Gobbos basically are a poor village that can pick from lots of empty houses. Everything else has to get created basically from scratch or at least has to get adjusted and organised.
The fields might still be there but someone has to attend to them. And to the mill. And bakery. Etc.

PS: Souhiro, could you please resize to a smaller size your epic-sized pictures before you post them? ;)Occupied Azure City/Gobbotopia does trade food and other necessary products with the other nations who "recognized" it, in the hope of getting the human slaves free, at least officially.
But even with slave-trading, there needs to be something more that the hobgoblins are selling so that they were actually capable of doing some deals with the other city-states. The loot from Azure city might be enough for the first few years to finance the trade products, I guess.

[Souhiro]

"my enemy is stupid to the point of near-mindlessness."

Man, if they have the same inteligence as humans, Why they don't have more modern looking villages? their walls are usually paleolitic, at best. Their constructions, are at best, paleolitic. And well... which non-magic healer would you trust? an elven one, an uman one, or the orcish/hobbo one?

They can be organized, but no more than a barbaric tribe, or a pride of lions. In a fortified city... well, in a CITY, they are out of their game. They are attackers, not defenders.

[Teddy]

But you have to consider that Azure City had established agriculture, established animal-herding, and established trade-realations.

Gobbotopia had nothing of that from the beginning.

All the infrastructure that allowed Azure City to sustain its population was mostly gone or was at least not used by the goblins. So the Gobbos basically are a poor village that can pick from lots of empty houses. Everything else has to get created basically from scratch or at least has to get adjusted and organised.
The fields might still be there but someone has to attend to them. And to the mill. And bakery. Etc.

All the roads should still be there, and all the farms and farming equipment too. Even the seed should be left in the barns. The farmers might have destroyed them, but that requires that they both have time to prepare and that they have lost all hope of returning home again.


PS: Souhiro, could you please resize to a smaller size your epic-sized pictures before you post them? ;)

Or spoiler them, please.

[Souhiro]

PS: Souhiro, could you please resize to a smaller size your epic-sized pictures before you post them? ;)

Sorry, Ancalon. It comes from a tool I saw here:
http://usuarios.multimania.es/souhiro/light.htm

The text says "Who do you hate most?"
(I'm an evil spanish from the vile Spain, so my english can be a little broken)

[Kish]

Man, if they have the same inteligence as humans, Why they don't have more modern looking villages?
Start of Darkness has the answer to that.

No matter how much you want them to be stupid, the answer is not "racial intelligence penalty," nor is it, "cultural lack of organization."

(I might add, as you go back to "unlimited epic magic" instead of "conveniently moronic enemies," that your spell would fail to affect the Prime Minister of Gobbotopia while a white-cloaked hobgoblin cleric named Jiryx fell over dead.)

[Scarlet Knight]

Hmmm, ok , how about this:

1) Get multiple strike teams made up of classes that can battle unarmored & with little equipment ( monks, sorcerers, druids)

2) Dress them up as serfs or pilgrims, have them get captured, where they will likely be placed with the slaves.

3) At appointed time, outside attack begins, serves also as diversion.

4) Planted strike teams overcome guards, & release slaves while majority of troops are defending the walls.

4) Slaves now serve as rear flank, setting fires, opening gates , raining chaos & revenge.

[Southern Cross]

How about flooding Gobbotopia with decanters of endless water?

[Draconi Redfir]

But you have to consider that Azure City had established agriculture, established animal-herding, and established trade-realations.

Gobbotopia had nothing of that from the beginning.

All the infrastructure that allowed Azure City to sustain its population was mostly gone or was at least not used by the goblins. So the Gobbos basically are a poor village that can pick from lots of empty houses. Everything else has to get created basically from scratch or at least has to get adjusted and organised.
The fields might still be there but someone has to attend to them. And to the mill. And bakery. Etc.

PS: Souhiro, could you please resize to a smaller size your epic-sized pictures before you post them? ;)



how do you know all this? the goblinoids have been liveing in Azure city for over a year now. you cant live for a year without food. the chances that they DIDINT start up some kind of farming system to keep them going are like ten-billion to one. they also have fish in the sea, animals in the feild to hunt, all sorts of things. heck, they might even be bringing in hydra-eggs so they can farm them for hydra-burgers.



and for those of you complaining about hobgoblin infrastucture, did you ever consider that perhaps they just like building things their own way? ainciant greek buildings looked nothing like midevil europe buildings. Hobgoblins just have their own way of doing things.

[veti]

With internal, do you mean within it's walls or within the country? Azure City, with its half a million of human population, managed to sustain itself at least partially, so the 20000+ hobgoblins should be able to sustain themselves pretty well as soon as they get their agriculture going.

Where does this figure of "half a million" Azurites come from? Just asking, 'cuz in terms of the "presumed medieval" setting that would be a ridiculously huge city - one of a kind in the world.

[hamishspence]

It comes from War & XPs- the figure given is 530,000 people.

On the other hand, it states "approximately half of these reside within the walls of the city itself"

so, they don't all live inside the city-some are citizens of the city-state but live outside its walls.

[slayerx]

how do you know all this? the goblinoids have been liveing in Azure city for over a year now. you cant live for a year without food. the chances that they DIDINT start up some kind of farming system to keep them going are like ten-billion to one. they also have fish in the sea, animals in the feild to hunt, all sorts of things. heck, they might even be bringing in hydra-eggs so they can farm them for hydra-burgers.

It comes mainly from redcloak's conversation with Jirix (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html)... Jirix says that he and the hogoblins are ready to defend the city, but redcloak questions him if they can feed themselves; he then brings up setting up trading with other cities... This would indicate that Gobbotopia did NOT have a self-sustaining food supply

Fishing... now this is something the azurites could do and probably did... thing is though, the Azurites had thousands of ships (which they took with them) to fish with while the hobgoblins started with none... and their doesn't seem to be much lumber around to build ships much less enough ships to get some serious fishing done

Farming... this i initally questioned as all the land around azure city seems to be pretty barren and rocky and doesn't look like even the azurites did any farming... and i don't recall any live stock... however looking back at old strips Miko did make passing mention of there being farmers for rice... though this would not say anything about live stock

hunting... same as farming, the land does not seem like it is well populated with animals... and i don't think hunting could support a whole city... tribes and villages ya, but not a city

How did the hobgoblins survive for a year?... through trading; by the time we meet haley and the resistance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0517.html), we can already see that the goblins have been doing trading with greysky city... and considering the crate of Gouda, a lot of that could have been food... Hell where did you think the pineapples came from? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0514.html)

[Loxagn]

How would I do it?

Epic spellcasting: Implement Positive Energy Nuke. The only ones that get a save are undead, and they'll probably get incinerated anyway. Everything else heals until they spontaneously combust. Best of all? Zero collateral damage.

Yes, it's obviously Epic Magic. But you know what? That's what you get when you bring Epic Spellcasting to the table. Others don't play nice.

Without access to something like that, of course, it becomes a purely tactical operation. Siege, guerilla tactics, etc.

[Graymayre]

I play a commandeer on it by discarding a blue card from my hand.

[Draconi Redfir]

It comes mainly from redcloak's conversation with Jirix (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html)... Jirix says that he and the hogoblins are ready to defend the city, but redcloak questions him if they can feed themselves; he then brings up setting up trading with other cities... This would indicate that Gobbotopia did NOT have a self-sustaining food supply

Fishing... now this is something the azurites could do and probably did... thing is though, the Azurites had thousands of ships (which they took with them) to fish with while the hobgoblins started with none... and their doesn't seem to be much lumber around to build ships much less enough ships to get some serious fishing done

Farming... this i initally questioned as all the land around azure city seems to be pretty barren and rocky and doesn't look like even the azurites did any farming... and i don't recall any live stock... however looking back at old strips Miko did make passing mention of there being farmers for rice... though this would not say anything about live stock

hunting... same as farming, the land does not seem like it is well populated with animals... and i don't think hunting could support a whole city... tribes and villages ya, but not a city

How did the hobgoblins survive for a year?... through trading; by the time we meet haley and the resistance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0517.html), we can already see that the goblins have been doing trading with greysky city... and considering the crate of Gouda, a lot of that could have been food... Hell where did you think the pineapples came from? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0514.html)



well no one can, and no one WANTS to sustain a naition long-term strictly by imports. i wouldent be surprised if at least SOME hobgoblins have been going around and finding there own methods of produceing food. and its also possible the Goblins found enough lumber and other raw matirials in weahouses and such that they could use to build ships, nets, and fishing spears.

edit: and take a look at this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html) page, pannel 8. "from here in our capital, Gobbotopia city, through the fertile blueriver vally"

they have the means to farm. and i wouldent be surprised if they had allrady started to do so.

[Dr.Epic]

I'd start out by doing this. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0706.html)

[Souhiro]

Yeah... RedCloack is, "TvTroping" the Genre Savvy. Using the Titanium Elementals, and abusing of clerics.

In the last chapter, a 25% of the hobbos are CLERICS! Sure, there is a lot of clerics at adventurers parties, but it is supossed that magic is a bit rare. Even at Forgotten Realms, which have too much magic to my tastes, the wizards, sorcerer and clerics are a minority among the population.


So, the forces that keeps Azure City at the graps of RedCloak are the power of the Dark One, and the wights (Commanded by clerics)
So, if you feed The Dark One to the Snarl, the hobbo's clerics would be powerless. The wights would be incontrollable, and gobbotopia would be defeated by it's own forces.

[snafu]

Where does this figure of "half a million" Azurites come from? Just asking, 'cuz in terms of the "presumed medieval" setting that would be a ridiculously huge city - one of a kind in the world.

Of European cities, ancient Rome managed a population in excess of a million. After the sack of Rome, Constantinople endured as a great city for centuries of slow decline. But after that, until the rise of industrial London as the first modern megacity, only Cordoba under the Caliphate in al-Andalus might have bothered the list of world's largest cities; it may have reached half a million or so. Otherwise, Europe was a backwater, largely de-urbanised, full of feudal peasants and tenant farmers with scattered market towns.

For comparison, Baghdad, heart of the empire of Islam, may well have been a city of a million at the time that Harold Godwinsson collapsed and died in the mud behind a shield wall with a Norman arrow in his face.

Apart from a few great trade centres of old Araby, for pretty much the whole period between Rome's fall and London's rise, the largest cities in the world were Chinese, Chinese, Chinese. Possibly something to do with the tea culture; boiling the water before you drink it is a good idea. A large population would fit well with Azure City's generally east Asian theme.

Just because English speakers at the time were mostly living in huts with mud all over them arguing about swallows and wondering if it would be the Normans or the Vikings who would come to kill them next, doesn't mean the rest of the world was in an equally barbaric state.

[Herald Alberich]

In the last chapter, a 25% of the hobbos are CLERICS! Sure, there is a lot of clerics at adventurers parties, but it is supossed that magic is a bit rare. Even at Forgotten Realms, which have too much magic to my tastes, the wizards, sorcerer and clerics are a minority among the population.

They're wizards, actually. Dancing Lights is a wiz/sor (and bard) spell. Despite looking identical to clerics, it seems the wizards wear brown. Your point still holds, though.

[Kish]

So, the forces that keeps Azure City at the graps of RedCloak are the power of the Dark One, and the wights (Commanded by clerics)
So, if you feed The Dark One to the Snarl, the hobbo's clerics would be powerless. The wights would be incontrollable, and gobbotopia would be defeated by it's own forces.
Aside from the cleric/arcane spellcaster confusion, your new strategy is to take over the Plan and do it better than Redcloak and Xykon before Redcloak and Xykon can finish it? Are you deliberately making your plans less feasible?

[Tarnag40k]

10 smurfs should do the trick.

[Asta Kask]

I'll trick them into spamming the forum - Roland will do the rest.

[Nimrod's Son]

Sorry, Ancalon.
Don't apologise, man. Edit the damn thing. :smallwink:

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Remember in comic 357 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html) when Belkar used an army of adventurers to take out the revenge obsessed kobold similar to that guy in the princess bride (lol)?
Well you could employ a similar strategy advertising gobotopia as "free xp land" and let the adventurers do the work for you!

[WowWeird]

Gicko-

and take a look at this page, pannel 8. "from here in our capital, Gobbotopia city, through the fertile blueriver vally"
Well, cool the typos please.

And did you read the next strip? Not five panels later, you see that the books are filled with blatant propaganda and (presumably) lies. While we may not know where the oboe, side-of-the-street-parking, or guacamole arose in the OOTSverse, it seems likely that goblins didn't invent all three- firstly due to their lack of technology in general (does this make them stupid? No. Does it mean that they don't seem to have streets to park along or cars, horses, or anything else to park in their natural villages? Yes.), and then given their constant struggle to survive (if the vast majority of the world hates me and wants me dead, I won't be growing avocados or making new instruments, I'd be training for my life).

How do we know that "fertile" isn't just to reassure the population- "Hey, we can't starve- we have great farming grounds out there!".

If they ARE having troubles with food, they damn well aren't going to be telling anyone about it.

[Elfey]

peasant railgun on the western continent some rods of thorium and aim at at the castle. Take out the order of the Dark One and the whole kingdom is down.

Or you just meet 5 people in an inn, each with a noble backstory and their own use to the plot and send them on a mission to do it. Make sure at least one attractive member of each gender is present for maximum value.

[Draconi Redfir]

Gicko-

Well, cool the typos please.

And did you read the next strip? Not five panels later, you see that the books are filled with blatant propaganda and (presumably) lies. While we may not know where the oboe, side-of-the-street-parking, or guacamole arose in the OOTSverse, it seems likely that goblins didn't invent all three- firstly due to their lack of technology in general (does this make them stupid? No. Does it mean that they don't seem to have streets to park along or cars, horses, or anything else to park in their natural villages? Yes.), and then given their constant struggle to survive (if the vast majority of the world hates me and wants me dead, I won't be growing avocados or making new instruments, I'd be training for my life).

How do we know that "fertile" isn't just to reassure the population- "Hey, we can't starve- we have great farming grounds out there!".

If they ARE having troubles with food, they damn well aren't going to be telling anyone about it.



Warrior cultures have still been known to use instruments for ceremonial dances, and victory calibrations, perhaps one hobgoblin one day was preparing for one such time, and came up wit the oboe.


And Redcloak NOT organizing farming industries in the fertile lands? That sounds less likely then a half-dragon half-mouse hybrid.

[Vaarsuvius4181]

I thought by now someone would have said

"Its not azure city, its GOBBOTOPIA"

[Gamgee]

Take off and nuke the site from orbit.

I concur with this.

[Pyron]

And did you read the next strip? Not five panels later, you see that the books are filled with blatant propaganda and (presumably) lies. While we may not know where the oboe, side-of-the-street-parking, or guacamole arose in the OOTSverse, it seems likely that goblins didn't invent all three- firstly due to their lack of technology in general (does this make them stupid? No. Does it mean that they don't seem to have streets to park along or cars, horses, or anything else to park in their natural villages? Yes.), and then given their constant struggle to survive (if the vast majority of the world hates me and wants me dead, I won't be growing avocados or making new instruments, I'd be training for my life).

How do we know that "fertile" isn't just to reassure the population- "Hey, we can't starve- we have great farming grounds out there!".

I draw your attention here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0703.html). Despite whatever hardship the hobgoblin fortress cities might have when it comes to food, they are well off enough to have the means to not only produce milk, but store and packet it into milk cartons. I'll admit, I'm not an expert on agriculture but it has to be an impressive accomplishment if they're resource starved.

Also, here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0368.html)- Miko expected to come across some farmers between the border tower and Azure City (which is a few days travel). Plus, Blueriver Fort, which is seven days aware (and possibly been hit), is a supplier for the tower.

[Draconi Redfir]

I thought by now someone would have said

"Its not azure city, its GOBBOTOPIA"



you make a very good point.


LONG LIVE GOBBOTOPIA!

[derfenrirwolv]

10 wizards cast alter self and start attacking folks in towns to the north.

[WowWeird]

I draw your attention here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0703.html). Despite whatever hardship the hobgoblin fortress cities might have when it comes to food, they are well off enough to have the means to not only produce milk, but store and packet it into milk cartons. I'll admit, I'm not an expert on agriculture but it has to be an impressive accomplishment if they're resource starved.

Also, here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0368.html)- Miko expected to come across some farmers between the border tower and Azure City (which is a few days travel). Plus, Blueriver Fort, which is seven days aware (and possibly been hit), is a supplier for the tower.

I didn't say that they were resource starved in their natural home- but transplanting half a million hobbos is probably going to be difficult, more so than life at home.
To clarify, I'm not sayin the hobgoblins are starving, more that one statement made in passing by a hobgoblin leader who needs his troops to keep morale, both to advance the Dark One and because a new leader is headed in-an unstable time.
I need more than propoganda...

And thats WITHOUT arguing that I don't see a
milk carton there (looks like a bottle to me) :smallsmile:

[Pyron]

I didn't say that they were resource starved in their natural home- but transplanting half a million hobbos is probably going to be difficult, more so than life at home.

And... how is transplanting a half million hobgoblins equals to them starving in Azure City?

Please note:

How do we know that "fertile" isn't just to reassure the population- "Hey, we can't starve- we have great farming grounds out there!".

You've made that argument that their new "fertile" land is nothing but a lie based some text books with propaganda. Which doesn't follow.

The point is: we know that the Blueriver Valley is fertile, we know that the Azurite country has plenty of farmlands and we know that goblin population now controls those lands. It's not that difficult for hobgoblin farmers to take over.

Furthermore, we know that the hobgoblin fort towns is only a week away and they are well off in resources. It wouldn't be that difficult to set up a supply train.

In short, there is evidence to suggest Gobbotopia's "fertile land" is anything but propaganda.

[Vaarsuvius4181]

you make a very good point.


LONG LIVE GOBBOTOPIA!

I always make good points.

And i hate gobbotopia. It makes me cry.

[snafu]

The point is: we know that the Blueriver Valley is fertile, we know that the Azurite country has plenty of farmlands and we know that goblin population now controls those lands. It's not that difficult for hobgoblin farmers to take over.

Hobgoblin farmers?

I've mentioned this before, but I think it was in another thread - either way, the idea of hobgoblin farmers misses the whole point of feudalism.

The hobgoblin conquerors don't have to farm. The hobgoblin conquerors take over the position of lord of the manor in each local demesne, and then extract a percentage of all the produce of the peasant farmers who already live there. It's probably exactly what the previous samurai elite had been doing all along. Will the peasants rebel? Not unless the hobgoblins extract a substantially higher tithe; otherwise, here comes the new boss, same as the old boss.

[waterpenguin43]

Wait 'til Xykon and co. leave. Then I attack the job-oriented areas (Farms, factories etc.) to leave it in financial ruin. Now I send a strike team to attack Jirix and his guards, then once he is dead I invade the city, so they have no way of planning their defenses and are all poor.

[KiwiImperator]

Taking a city back from a warrior-culture that really, really wants to keep it is a terrible, bloody affair and has to be done street by street, and probably under them too. It's not an affair for the weak of heart, it's the sort of thing that villains do at the start of an action movie to make you unsympathetic to them later when Rambo rips their heads off. Thankfully, Tripples McSeeyounextfall (the elf) seems to have a pretty good handle on this sort of thing. Stay the course, gentlemen.

[ico9883]

You're all overthinking this. It's simple; the way that our ancestors took cities for centuries; lay seige to the thing. If you have magical access, do it with Golems; those defensive walls work just as well keeping disease and pestilience in as they do keeping invaders out (see Athens in the Peloponnesian War), and your constructs won't starve nearly so quickly as the Gobbos and Hobbos.

[Herald Alberich]

You're all overthinking this. It's simple; the way that our ancestors took cities for centuries; lay seige to the thing. If you have magical access, do it with Golems; those defensive walls work just as well keeping disease and pestilience in as they do keeping invaders out (see Athens in the Peloponnesian War), and your constructs won't starve nearly so quickly as the Gobbos and Hobbos.

Don't forget that it's a coastal port city. On the other hand, we don't know if the hobgoblins have any ships or any nautical experience. Also, a couple big water elementals or aquatic-subtype summons would probably bottle that end up nicely. On the other hand again, long-term summoning is resource-expensive. I don't know what sorts of golems, if any, would be useful in the water.

[Pyron]

Hobgoblin farmers?

I've mentioned this before, but I think it was in another thread - either way, the idea of hobgoblin farmers misses the whole point of feudalism.

The hobgoblin conquerors don't have to farm. The hobgoblin conquerors take over the position of lord of the manor in each local demesne, and then extract a percentage of all the produce of the peasant farmers who already live there. It's probably exactly what the previous samurai elite had been doing all along. Will the peasants rebel? Not unless the hobgoblins extract a substantially higher tithe; otherwise, here comes the new boss, same as the old boss.

What if the hobgoblins decide to enslave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0511.html) the 'peasant farmers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0547.html) who already live (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html) there'?

You might have a point if ruler ship went from Shojo to Kubota. But, I doubt that it's going to be 'the new boss, same as the old boss' with the Hobgoblins. In fact, based on Redcloak's line that they need to 'consolidate control of the countryside', we have evidence (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html) that suggests a few peasant revolts.

Don't forget, one of the biggest gripes from the gobliniod races is that they're stuck farming barren wastelands. Now they have a nice fertile valley. I do not believe that any hobgoblin farmer would not want a piece of the Blueriver valley. Not when it represents a better opportunity for them. Also, keep in mind, with a population of over 50,000 not every one can be 'lord of the manor' and prior to the invasion the hobgoblin fort city still needed farm hands to tend the fields.

Finally, let's not forget that we have no evidence of Gobbotopia being a feudal society. Unless you have something to share.

[slayerx]

You're all overthinking this. It's simple; the way that our ancestors took cities for centuries; lay seige to the thing. If you have magical access, do it with Golems; those defensive walls work just as well keeping disease and pestilience in as they do keeping invaders out (see Athens in the Peloponnesian War), and your constructs won't starve nearly so quickly as the Gobbos and Hobbos.

Golems are expensive to create (one flesh golem is like 20,000 gp) and i believe require wizards with a decent level... Essentially it would not be very feasible to create an army of golems capable of laying seige to a city... Frankly you might have a better chance of gathering up clerics and raising an army of skeletons if you want a force that won't need food... plus they might help spread the disease and pestilence. When it comes down to it, you're gonna need A LOT of units to lay siege as you have to be strong enough that the 20,000 hobgoblins don't just come out and destroy your force.


Don't forget that it's a coastal port city. On the other hand, we don't know if the hobgoblins have any ships or any nautical experience. Also, a couple big water elementals or aquatic-subtype summons would probably bottle that end up nicely. On the other hand again, long-term summoning is resource-expensive. I don't know what sorts of golems, if any, would be useful in the water.
I think Hinjo and the remnants of Azure city alone would be enough... they were a heavy port city and they took every ship with them when they left. Even if the Gobbo's managed to build ships i doubt they'd have enough to beat Hinjo in a navel fight. He could probably form a blockade with his fleet and still have a few ships left over to keep resupplying the fleet with the necessary provisions

[SaintRidley]

I'd let the goblins keep it.

[gooddragon1]

1: Call down the thunder. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarCraft:_Ghost)
2: Rathe Darkharrow (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=25301)
3: Detect City Nuke
4: Cloudkill, cloudkill, cloudkill
5: Poison the water/set plagues loose in the city

[Zerg Cookie]

Charge that breach in the wall, and not to stop until they can feel the ocean spray on their faces (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html)

[Snake-Aes]

Wait 'til Xykon and co. leave. Then I attack the job-oriented areas (Farms, factories etc.) to leave it in financial ruin. Now I send a strike team to attack Jirix and his guards, then once he is dead I invade the city, so they have no way of planning their defenses and are all poor.

Because, in a race known for it's military discipline, Jirix has to be the one and only strategist and tactician of the city.

Killing the leader causes a ruckus, a drop in morale and some moments of chaos. If the hobs live up to their reputation, the chaos bit will only last a short while.
No, killing Jirix is not "the key to defeating the defenders of gobbotopia". It's going to be useful, it's going to help, but it will not drop their defenses by any significant or long lasting manner.

[pendell]

You've made that argument that their new "fertile" land is nothing but a lie based some text books with propaganda. Which doesn't follow.

The point is: we know that the Blueriver Valley is fertile, we know that the Azurite country has plenty of farmlands and we know that goblin population now controls those lands. It's not that difficult for hobgoblin farmers to take over.


Correction; we knew it was fertile at the beginning of War and XPs. If the gods are really serious about the goblins being XP fodder, they may blight the valley to drive the lesson home: Goblins don't get to be civilized. Goblins are bandits and raiders, always and all the time.

It may be that blight will follow the goblins wherever they go, regardless of what they conquer and regardless of whether they try to manage the land or simply rape it. If so, the Dark One's solution may be the only solution to their plight.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[ico9883]

Don't forget that it's a coastal port city. On the other hand, we don't know if the hobgoblins have any ships or any nautical experience. Also, a couple big water elementals or aquatic-subtype summons would probably bottle that end up nicely. On the other hand again, long-term summoning is resource-expensive. I don't know what sorts of golems, if any, would be useful in the water.

Iron Golems; have them stand under docks, and rip the boats undersides to shreds. If they even have a fleet; plus, I'm sure Hinjo's fleet could be used.


Golems are expensive to create (one flesh golem is like 20,000 gp) and i believe require wizards with a decent level... Essentially it would not be very feasible to create an army of golems capable of laying seige to a city... Frankly you might have a better chance of gathering up clerics and raising an army of skeletons if you want a force that won't need food... plus they might help spread the disease and pestilence. When it comes down to it, you're gonna need A LOT of units to lay siege as you have to be strong enough that the 20,000 hobgoblins don't just come out and destroy your force.


If anyone's planning on taking a city, it's going to require a lot of resources. Compared to some other ideas, like "charge the breach until you win", this may still take less. Golems aren't neccessary; just would be a nice bonus if available.

[Dark Matter]

Assume V goes up *one* level and Xykon leaves.

V casts Invisibility, Overland Flight, and Symbol of Insanity. Then she flies around the city's primary "goblin" areas and all gobs fight themselves to death.

[Pyron]

Correction; we knew it was fertile at the beginning of War and XPs. If the gods are really serious about the goblins being XP fodder, they may blight the valley to drive the lesson home: Goblins don't get to be civilized. Goblins are bandits and raiders, always and all the time.

We have evidence that the valley is still fertile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html). We have zero evidence of deific blights, and we have plenty of reason to believe that the XP fodder races (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html) can be civilized (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0568.html).**

SoD Spoiler:
... you can add Right Eye's village to that list

[taltamir]

i suggest self replicating undead. or locate city bomb...

just kidding... a long protected war with a giant army.

[pendell]

We have evidence that the valley is still fertile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html).
We have zero evidence of deific blights,


All true as of this moment; that may change.



and we have plenty of reason to believe that the XP fodder races (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html) can be civilized (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0568.html).**


Erm .. no, we don't. Goblinoid society has always existed at village level. That's a far cry from being a full-fledged nation with trade agreements, a stable government, etc.

In SOD the Dark One tells us that the goblinoids were created specifically for the purpose of providing XP to PC races .

If The Dark One was telling the truth, then until the world is changed the goblinoids will be unable to build a civilization on any grand scale, due to that inability being built in at their creation on a basic level. Individual villages, yes. Mighty cities and civilizations, no.

If the Dark One was lying, then it is quite possible that Gobbotopia will live and thrive.

But if the Dark One was telling the truth ... if goblins were sabotaged at their creation by gods who had no greater use for them than to be XP-fodder -- then the city will founder on its own self-contradictions, which will be revealed in due course. If so, the only way a goblinoid civilization could exist was if the world was re-written from the ground up to give them a real chance.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Alex Warlorn]

I concur with this.



If you reduce the city to ashes, you haven't really reclaimed anything.

[DeltaEmil]

Hobgoblins have built a mighty city with enough hobgoblin warriors to defeat a mighty human empire. Of course, they are the lawful-disciplined goblinoids, who would be capable of doing such a feat even under such a harsh environment. Bugbear-society will probably have even more shaddy villages than normal goblins build.

[Pyron]

All true as of this moment; that may change.

Until it does, I am not going to make that assumption.


Erm .. no, we don't. Goblinoid society has always existed at village level. That's a far cry from being a full-fledged nation with trade agreements, a stable government, etc.

That's not what being contested:

If the gods are really serious about the goblins being XP fodder, they may blight the valley to drive the lesson home: Goblins don't get to be civilized. Goblins are bandits and raiders, always and all the time.

Emphasis mine. You've made the claim that the XP-fodder races are incapable of being civilized. Having a full-fledged nation is not a pre-requisite for being civilized. Having a community where you are self-sufficient without the need to raid, even if it's just a small village, is.

SoD Spoiler
Not to mention, Right Eye's little community (an example you conveniently snipped) - a place where they lived peacefully with humans, could save up for a college fund and did not need to resort to raiding debunks your theory.


In SOD the Dark One tells us that the goblinoids were created specifically for the purpose of providing XP to PC races .

If The Dark One was telling the truth, then until the world is changed the goblins will be unable to build a civilization on any grand scale, due to that inability being built in at their creation on a basic level. Individual villages, yes. Mighty cities and civilizations, no.

Where is this inability coming from? The only things the gods had done was give them a few handicaps and shoved them on the wastelands. Having a handicap is not the same thing as being incapable. It's possible to overcome a handicap.

While we're on SoD
Remember another thing the gods feared was the XP-fodder races would gang up on the human civilization, which is exactly what happened during the Azure City siege. If the gods were serious about keeping the goblins in their place then you would had done something a little more proactive.

Instead they just watched and threw a hissy fit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html) when the dwarf asked for an extra move-action.


If the Dark One was lying, then it is quite possible that Gobbotopia will live and thrive.

But if the Dark One was telling the truth ... if goblins were sabotaged at their creation by gods who had no greater use for them than to be XP-fodder -- then the city will founder on its own self-contradictions, which will be revealed in due course. If so, the only way a goblinoid civilization could exist was if the world was re-written from the ground up to give them a real chance.

False dilemma. It's quite possible for the Dark One to be telling the truth AND that gobliniods have a shot of building a lasting civilization outside of the plan.

[Illieas]

wait till xykon, redcloak and tsukiko leave.

destroy all the satellite settlements to thin their defense of azure city. either they give up the land and only defend AC or they thin their guard and leave the center to easy attack.

scry and fry tactics starting with the highest level characters

cause general mayhem. teleport in housing or trade district and fireball them.

steal or destroy food stuffs.

pretty much run guerrilla tactics. inspire fear and chaos and eventually they will either leave, starve, or die slowly.

really with D&D and high level wizards, guerrilla tactics are extremely easy and powerful. with unlimited mobility. one could go from eating and sleeping from where the azurite's island to go in and murder 50 or so goblinoids and be back in a flash.

[veti]

What if the hobgoblins decide to enslave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0511.html) the 'peasant farmers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0547.html) who already live (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html) there'?

From a practical point of view, there's not that much difference between a slave and a serf. Basically, serfs do all the work while their landlords take all the profits, whereas slaves do all the work while their owners take all the profits. Unless they're demanding "more" profits, leaving the oppressed peasants without enough to live on in the style to which they're accustomed, the practical change is pretty minor.


Don't forget, one of the biggest gripes from the gobliniod races is that they're stuck farming barren wastelands. Now they have a nice fertile valley. I do not believe that any hobgoblin farmer would not want a piece of the Blueriver valley.

I'm sure you're right, but I'm not so sure how many "hobgoblin farmers" there are in the first place.

We've seen (in SoD) evidence that there are such things as goblin farmers, but they seem to be pretty unusual, and goblins are nowhere near as monomaniacally militaristic as hobgoblins.


Finally, let's not forget that we have no evidence of Gobbotopia being a feudal society. Unless you have something to share.

Well, it's a slave economy, possibly closer in organisation to ancient/Spartan or Roman rather than medieval/feudal European. But in any society where slaves exist, they generally get to do the hard work. Otherwise what's the point in having them?


really with D&D and high level wizards, guerrilla tactics are extremely easy and powerful. with unlimited mobility. one could go from eating and sleeping from where the azurite's island to go in and murder 50 or so goblinoids and be back in a flash.

Well, yes. D&D is pretty much designed on the assumption that players will spend most of their time with precisely that kind of hit-and-run tactic. What else is dungeon-crawling?

But by the same token, hobgoblin society is ideally evolved to resist it. I suggest that the human slaves would suffer most from these tactics. If the hobgoblins were vulnerable to it, they would never have been able to hold out in large numbers anywhere, even in the mountains.

[Herald Alberich]

From a practical point of view, there's not that much difference between a slave and a serf. Basically, serfs do all the work while their landlords take all the profits, whereas slaves do all the work while their owners take all the profits. Unless they're demanding "more" profits, leaving the oppressed peasants without enough to live on in the style to which they're accustomed, the practical change is pretty minor.

We don't know that the peasant farmers are serfs; there is a difference. We don't know that they were oppressed under Azure rule, either. If the Azurites were properly feudal, they'd take a reasonable percentage of the crop (maybe even leaving enough to sell at market, instead of just live on), and provide military protection (which they were certainly capable of) in return.

But under hobgoblin rule, oppression and slavery/serfdom are likely.