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View Full Version : Looking to get into 4e, tips?



Squark
2010-03-07, 05:36 PM
Allright. I purchased the 4e books awhile back, and I've been thinking about getting into a pbp game on these boards. While I think I understand the system fairly well, I don't know much about the finer points of playing, seeing as I've never managed to get a game going.

Supplements I have

DMG
MM
PHB 1 & 2
FR Player's guide (You know, it's a pity they never updated Forgotten Realms to 4e (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DisContinuity))


A couple of questions- How does the PHB 3's treatment of Psionics look? I seem to recall hearing they released a playtest Psion a while ago, and there are excerpts floating around on DDI. Also, how did Ebberon fare after it got updated?

Mushroom Ninja
2010-03-07, 05:37 PM
This is not the subforum you're looking for.

Vitruviansquid
2010-03-07, 05:38 PM
I believe the forums you are looking for are either the Play by Post or the Roleplaying games section.

Here we discuss all games other than tabletop RPG's.

Inhuman Bot
2010-03-07, 06:06 PM
First tip. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=30) :smalltongue:

FoE
2010-03-07, 06:09 PM
Wrong forum, but in any case, Eberron fared quite well. They juggled a few things to fit in the new races and there were a few minor flavour changes, but the setting did not face the cataclysm that Forgotten Realms did.

Squark
2010-03-07, 07:06 PM
>.> Whoops. Whoops. Whoops.

Err... Can I get this thread moved to the Roleplaying Games forum please?


I know where this thread is supposed to go, I just... Dunno, really.

Flickerdart
2010-03-07, 07:07 PM
What, it's not a subtle take on "lol 4E is like a videogame"?

Shame.

Squark
2010-03-07, 07:08 PM
No. No it isn't. I like 4e mechanically.

FoE
2010-03-08, 12:24 AM
You could try PMing a mod to request moving the thread. Roland St. Jude is the best bet.

In any case, what do you mean by the "finer points of gaming"? Are you referring to combat duration, effectiveness of skill challenges, balance of play, etc.?

If you like, you could attempt to join/start a 4E game on the forum. From what I heard, 4E is less than ideal for PbP, but I am no expert on the matter. I might even join.

Mando Knight
2010-03-08, 01:15 AM
A couple of questions- How does the PHB 3's treatment of Psionics look? I seem to recall hearing they released a playtest Psion a while ago, and there are excerpts floating around on DDI.

Previews of all four Psionic classes got released to DDI, though the Battlemind, Psion, and Ardent are completely different from the Monk and any other class released so far. Discussing psionic augmentations properly would take a little more time than I'd like to spend right now...

Manicotti
2010-03-08, 02:26 AM
No. No it isn't. I like 4e mechanically.


^ That. Yes, 4e simplifies a lot of everything, but whether or not that really affects your RP is up to your DM and your group.

Roland St. Jude
2010-03-08, 12:12 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Thread moved. Please, for the love of all you hold dear, please keep it civil in here.

valadil
2010-03-08, 12:23 PM
Try listening to podcasts of other people playing. Penny Arcade has one that I hear is pretty popular.

Squark
2010-03-08, 04:04 PM
You could try PMing a mod to request moving the thread. Roland St. Jude is the best bet.

In any case, what do you mean by the "finer points of gaming"? Are you referring to combat duration, effectiveness of skill challenges, balance of play, etc.?

If you like, you could attempt to join/start a 4E game on the forum. From what I heard, 4E is less than ideal for PbP, but I am no expert on the matter. I might even join.

Tactics and powers to pick/avoid, at this point.

FoE
2010-03-08, 04:08 PM
There are no real "traps" in 4E as there was 3.5E. There are some builds that are less effective than others, but it's difficult to build a bad character unless you really work at it.

We could spend all day discussing good builds, but perhaps we should make things simpler: what kind of character and class would you prefer to play? Remember, it's all about fulfilling a Role in 4E, whether that be a Leader, a Defender, a Striker or a Controller.

Reynard
2010-03-08, 05:01 PM
If you're interested in a game, I'm going to be DMing one soon, and recruitment is still open. And a second potential DM has emerged in the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8034909#post8034909), looking for interest in a campaign starting at level 1.

Guinea Anubis
2010-03-08, 06:22 PM
First tip, get power cards and learn to love them.

Swordgleam
2010-03-08, 06:26 PM
A couple of questions- How does the PHB 3's treatment of Psionics look? I seem to recall hearing they released a playtest Psion a while ago, and there are excerpts floating around on DDI. Also, how did Ebberon fare after it got updated?

I've been hearing good things about the PHB3, and it's out in some stores now. No idea about Ebberon.

I second the comment that there are no bad builds (unless maybe you go hybrid). Just figure out what you want to play and pick powers that look fun.

RebelRogue
2010-03-08, 06:36 PM
My advice to the OP is to just go for it. It's hard to do really bad in 4e and if you've never played an actual game before it's a good system to get started on.

As for the PHB3, I've only glanced through one of my friend's copy today, so it's hard to tell how everything works in actual play, but I'd say that a complete beginner is probably better off playing a PHB1 (or some PHB2) class, as these new classes introduce some new elements that are slightly more complex (or assumes a solid knowledge of the basics). It's not undoable but it takes more work.

4e Eberron continuity from 3.5 is fine - no major changes there.

Colmarr
2010-03-08, 08:43 PM
There are no real "traps" in 4E as there was 3.5E. There are some builds that are less effective than others, but it's difficult to build a bad character unless you really work at it.

And yet the fighter player in my group (level 9) managed to inadvertently design a level 1 paladin that was Str 12 and Cha 14.

There are traps, but they're not terribly dangerous to those who are paying attention. :smallsmile:

Kylarra
2010-03-08, 08:56 PM
And yet the fighter player in my group (level 9) managed to inadvertently design a level 1 paladin that was Str 12 and Cha 14.

There are traps, but they're not terribly dangerous to those who are paying attention. :smallsmile:I think that's pretty close to actively trying to build a bad character. Ignoring your primary stat(s) is going to shaft you hard no matter the system. :smallsmile:

A slightly more accurate trap would be the same character with dual 16s and not much else.

Ryumaru
2010-03-08, 09:01 PM
"Watch your back, shoot straight, conserve ammo, and never, ever, cut a deal with a dragon"

Oracle_Hunter
2010-03-08, 09:28 PM
First Step: Get DDI for 1 month

What you get
- Full Character Builder (has character-relevant material from every book published to date)
- Full Adventure Tools (has every monster every published, and a monster-building tool)

How long do you get it
You get updates for the duration of your subscription, but both the full Character Builder and Adventure Tools permanently on your computer.

Cost
$10 (http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Subscription.aspx)

Squark
2010-03-08, 09:29 PM
My advice to the OP is to just go for it. It's hard to do really bad in 4e and if you've never played an actual game before it's a good system to get started on.

As for the PHB3, I've only glanced through one of my friend's copy today, so it's hard to tell how everything works in actual play, but I'd say that a complete beginner is probably better off playing a PHB1 (or some PHB2) class, as these new classes introduce some new elements that are slightly more complex (or assumes a solid knowledge of the basics). It's not undoable but it takes more work.

4e Eberron continuity from 3.5 is fine - no major changes there.

So PHB 3 desided to get a little more complex... and they gave psionics their own system... I feel like giving WOTC a hug right now. :smallbiggrin:

To be clear, I have played Star Wars Saga and 3.5 a bit (campaign got to 6th level, then stopped because I gave way, way, way too much loot), and I have attempted to try Keep on the Shadowfell with a friend, but playing only two characters didn't work out too well.

Mando Knight
2010-03-08, 09:32 PM
and I have attempted to try Keep on the Shadowfell with a friend, but playing only two characters didn't work out too well.

Keep on the Shadowfell is probably one of the worst low-level modules to run for a small party.

Colmarr
2010-03-08, 10:01 PM
I think that's pretty close to actively trying to build a bad character. Ignoring your primary stat(s) is going to shaft you hard no matter the system. :smallsmile:

A slightly more accurate trap would be the same character with dual 16s and not much else.

My point was that this was a gamer with 9 levels worth of personal experience with 4e D&D and he still didn't ensure - while building a character - that he has adequately covered his attack bonus.

Yes, it was dumb of him, and he realised the full extent of that dumbness when I pointed it out to him, but the fact that it happened in the first place suggests that there's more "trap" to 4e that a lot of people believe.

It's nowhere near the "trap" level of 3e with it's version of Toughness and Dirty Fighting, but it's still there.

Plus I wanted to share my astonishment :smallwink:


"Watch your back, shoot straight, conserve ammo, and never, ever, cut a deal with a dragon"

Wrong game, chummer. :smallsmile:

Kylarra
2010-03-08, 10:11 PM
My point was that this was a gamer with 9 levels worth of personal experience with 4e D&D and he still didn't ensure - while building a character - that he has adequately covered his attack bonus.

Yes, it was dumb of him, and he realised the full extent of that dumbness when I pointed it out to him, but the fact that it happened in the first place suggests that there's more "trap" to 4e that a lot of people believe.

It's nowhere near the "trap" level of 3e with it's version of Toughness and Dirty Fighting, but it's still there.

Plus I wanted to share my astonishment :smallwink:I guess so. I just don't really consider that an issue unique to 4e per se. It's also hard for me to classify that as a trap, since not neglecting your combat stat is common sense in a game about killing things and taking their stuff. I mean, for some games, simply picking a Paladin in 3.X is a trap. :smallwink: Let alone having a 12 strength to play it with. :smalltongue: We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Colmarr
2010-03-08, 10:34 PM
I guess so. I just don't really consider that an issue unique to 4e per se.

Then I miscommunicated. It's not unique to 4e, but I've seen more than one poster comment here and elsewhere that 4e doesn't have traps.

It does, they're just far less likely to catch anyone.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-03-08, 10:40 PM
Then I miscommunicated. It's not unique to 4e, but I've seen more than one poster comment here and elsewhere that 4e doesn't have traps.

It does, they're just far less likely to catch anyone.
I will second this.

For example: Avengers. Especially Pursuit Avengers.

deathpigeon
2010-03-08, 10:48 PM
I will second this.

For example: Avengers. Especially Pursuit Avengers.

Except, if done correctly, Avengers, even Pursuit Avengers, are just as good as other classes.

Kylarra
2010-03-08, 10:50 PM
Then I miscommunicated. It's not unique to 4e, but I've seen more than one poster comment here and elsewhere that 4e doesn't have traps.

It does, they're just far less likely to catch anyone.Well, the aforementioned avenger may be a trap, but prime stat neglect is just neglect, not getting trapped by shiny options.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-03-08, 10:57 PM
Except, if done correctly, Avengers, even Pursuit Avengers, are just as good as other classes.
Yes - but Avengers are best when they have no actual Avenger Powers :smalltongue:

That is counter-intuitive enough to count as a trap in my book.

deathpigeon
2010-03-08, 10:59 PM
Yes - but Avengers are best when they have no actual Avenger Powers :smalltongue:

That is counter-intuitive enough to count as a trap in my book.

No. Avengers, if done correctly, can be just as good as regular classes using only its own powers.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-03-08, 11:09 PM
No. Avengers, if done correctly, can be just as good as regular classes using only its own powers.
Please, show me this build. Because they certainly do not measure up to other Strikers - I mean, not even Warlocks.

tcrudisi
2010-03-09, 03:38 AM
No. Avengers, if done correctly, can be just as good as regular classes using only its own powers.

A fully optimized Avenger can be just as good as an unoptimized version of a regular class. Unfortunately, if you optimize both equally, the Avenger again falls into the sewage tank.

That's not to say that Avengers are terrible. They are a lot of fun and great for a new player. So while on a scale of 1-10 an Avenger might be a 4, everyone else is still a 5.

I wouldn't consider it a trap since you will still be contributing greatly to a group. As much as the Rogue? Not quite -- but 4e has so much balance that even it's lowest class (the Avenger) still gets to participate substantially.

*edit* Woo! My first post with my new avatar. Thank you, Ceika!

Squark
2010-03-09, 07:30 AM
So, if I were to try to get a group started, are the newbies should avoid?

tcrudisi
2010-03-09, 09:35 AM
So, if I were to try to get a group started, are the newbies should avoid?

huh? I'm guessing you mean, "Are there any classes the newbies should avoid?"

If that's the question you meant, then I would say the Swordmage (incredibly difficult to play defender) and perhaps the Wizard (as it will be played incorrectly and possibly frustrate the player when they feel they aren't contributing as much). If you have a new player that wants to play the equivalent of a 3.5 evocation caster (ie - blow lots of things up), point them to the Sorcerer.

Swordgleam
2010-03-09, 10:46 AM
Except, if done correctly, Avengers, even Pursuit Avengers, are just as good as other classes.

I think the main thing is, "If done correctly." Pretty much any class in any edition can be playable with the right about of optimization, but part of the joy of 4e is that, the vast majority of the time, you can pick whatever class/race combo makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside, pick whatever powers, feats and items look shiny, and you'll be fine. Having not played an avenger, I have no idea whether or not this is true for them.


So, if I were to try to get a group started, are the newbies should avoid?

There are a couple of classes where all their attacks are based on either one stat or another - str or cha for pally, cha or con for warlock, etc. If you have a total newb to all forms of gaming, keep an eye on them if they pick one of those classes. They might end up with half their attacks missing a good part of the time if they manage to ignore both their stats and their powers' descriptions.

LibraryOgre
2010-03-09, 11:04 AM
My main suggestion for 4e in general is: Use your encounter powers. This may sound weird, but when I started, I found myself using my at-wills a lot, and "saving" my encounter powers. Not worth it. Get them out of the way early, and save your at-wills for

1) The long grind of the fight
2) When an encounter is not tactically feasible.

Yakk
2010-03-09, 11:33 AM
Pick a primary attack bonus stat. Your class will probably dictate it (except Ranger and Cleric). If your class doesn't dictate it, pick one of the options your class provides. Stick with it.

Get your primary attack stat up to 16 before racial modifiers. If your primary attack stat is dex or int, think about boosting it to 18 before racial modifiers. For a race, pick human or a race that boosts your primary attack stat.

If you are a class that wears heavy armor, your next step is to pick your secondary stat based off of your class options. Get it up to 14 or so before racial modifiers.

If you are a class that doesn't wear heavy armor, and doesn't have dex/int as a primary stat, you need some way to boost your AC. Probably your class covers it somehow (either your secondary stat is dex/int, or your class has some way to boost their AC). The only published exception to this are rageblood and thane barbarians, and even they have options.

For your third stat, pick a stat that boosts a defence that isn't covered by your primary stats. But it up a bunch.

Your other stats should be 8 to 10, with maybe 1 or 2 points left over. Distribute to taste.

In combat, there are a few basic tactics.
1> Swarm something. If something is dead, it no longer attacks you. If two things are half-dead, they both attack you. Concentrated damage is about twice as good as spread out damage. At the same time, spread-damage powers in 4e can be ridiculously effective, even after you account for the concentrated damage advantage. However, only spread damage when the power doesn't let you concentrate it!

2> The defender should take most of the damage, but not all of it. Unused healing surges at the end of the day are a wasted resource: as a non-defender, you should try to get enemies to attack you in moderation. As a defender, you should leave some bad guys to attack the rest of the party.

3> Positioning is important. With it, you can force enemies to provoke OAs from you, flank, and use area powers more effectively.

4> Static bonuses to damage add up. If you can hit more than once, they multiply.

5> Take a close look at racial and class feats. Not all of them are good, but there are often gems. For example, dwarves have a whole series of feats that are intended to make them more viable as a Fighter/Paladin/Warlord despite their poor stat bonuses for those classes.

6> You only get one immediate action per round, and not on your turn.

7> You get one opportunity action per turn not your own. The only things that provoke OAs by default are ranged (and ranged area) attacks, and leaving-a-threatened-square-without-shifting-or-teleporting. You only threaten adjacent opponents, even with a reach weapon. Standing up, drawing a weapon, blowing your nose -- none of them provoke by default.

8> Daily powers that target one target, lack the reliable keyword, and have no miss effect suck. Uniformly.

9> Look for daily powers with encounter long riders. They tend to be great, so long as you know the fight is going to be hard.

10> Remember to make your monster knowledge checks at the start of a fight.

11> (save ends) lasts an average of ~ 1.8 rounds without save debuffs on normal opponents -- ~ 1.25 rounds on a solo. Don't over value it -- it is a 1 round effect with a chance to last longer.

12> If you are into CharOp, look at the level of optimisation of the rest of the party, and aim for that ballpark. CharOp in 4e grows in impact with level -- by start of paragon, you can be doing 3x the at-will damage with heavy char-op. By end epic, heavy char-op is about one-rounding level 30+ solos on an at-will basis. It isn't 3e CharOp (where heavy char-op is about one-rounding campaigns), but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be careful about over-oping a character.

13> Rogues go for accuracy, Rangers for multi-tap, Warlords for granting allies attacks, Fighters for stances and "come and get it", Wizards for daily zone-control, Clerics for healing and ally boosts, Swordmages kite, Warlocks are by default lurkers, Avengers need to crit fish, Warders really like reach weapons and inventing difficult terrain, Paladins should exploit the action-free nature of their mark punishment, Hybrids take work, Artificers should embrace the magic weapon, Bards should slide with it, Invokers should get up close and burst, Barbarians charrrrrggee, Druid swarm build is easier to make good, Shamans need to realise the difference between Effect and Hit lines on powers.

Most classes have 1 or 2 feats from the X Power book that really helps them. DDI also has them, but DDI feat lists are getting unwieldy.

Hal
2010-03-09, 11:48 AM
A few tips from me:

1) As has been mentioned here, your primary stats need to be kept in mind when building your character. At least a 16 is necessary in your main attack stat, and then usually at least a 14 in one of your two secondary stats.

2) Try to look ahead for feats you will want. There are many feats in all of the tiers that have unusual ability score requirements (this is more common in the PHB than anywhere else). If you know you'll want, say, Linguist, then you'll want to make sure you can afford to put at least 13 points into Int.

3) There's no role a new player can't tackle (when it was released, we were ALL new), but Strikers are the simplest role to play, at least in combat. They're also one of the few roles that don't suffer from redundancy. There's always room for another striker, but two or more leaders or defenders might not be used to their full capacity.

4) Build your character with your role in mind. For example, damage-increasing feats are mostly for Strikers; other roles are more interested in the effects of their attacks rather than the raw output of damage. Subsequently, to-hit bonuses are always worth acquiring, as most of your attacks won't have their full effect unless they hit.

5) Build a character that you're going to enjoy playing. The roles in the game can make you feel obligated to play a certain class or archetype ("Oh, you need a healer? I'd wanted to play a warlock, but I guess I'll be a cleric instead"), but in the end any party can work so long as the DM is willing to balance encounters around the party as it is, rather than the idealized party (1 defender, 1 leader, 1 controller, 1-3 strikers).

Have fun!

Totally Guy
2010-03-09, 12:02 PM
I attended a 4th Edition starter night last night. I've only got he PHBs 1&2 so with a level 4 character I built up for a human Bard with a Sorcerer multiclass.

I was quite pleased with the character and he fit in with party as nobody else had brought along a leader.

It was pretty fun. Although I had no idea what moves everyone was doing, and they were all the weird races that I'd not paid attention to learning.

Overall the group's playstyle did not suit my own but that effect was probably added to by social awkwardness. It was as if they didn't recognise me as a geek and acted cautiously around me. I think it's like Predator's Taint from vampire... And I've got obfuscate... (Plus there was a pathfinder group sharing the room and the two groups seemed very cautious of one another:smallamused:)

Anyway, what I was trying to say is that with the PHB 3 out there might be a game day out there. The guy from last night said that there was day where loads of places all over the world would e gaming simultaneously.

Squark
2010-03-09, 03:55 PM
huh? I'm guessing you mean, "Are there any classes the newbies should avoid?"

If that's the question you meant, then I would say the Swordmage (incredibly difficult to play defender) and perhaps the Wizard (as it will be played incorrectly and possibly frustrate the player when they feel they aren't contributing as much). If you have a new player that wants to play the equivalent of a 3.5 evocation caster (ie - blow lots of things up), point them to the Sorcerer.

Yeah, that's what I meant. So are all controllers a bit harder to play, or are the PHB II controllers easier?

Yakk
2010-03-09, 04:31 PM
The PHB1 controller (Wizard) has the problem that some of the powers are striker esque, but inferior. Being tempted by the striker-esque powers ... can cause problems.

The PHB2 controllers include the Invoker and the Druid. I'd say the Druid is as easy to get "wrong" as the Wizard. I would find the Invoker harder to judge, because I haven't seen a newbie play an Invoker. :-)

I'd agree that Controllers are harder to play -- you are about changing the shape and nature of the battlefield. I'd also think that the PHB1 Wizard was a proto-Controller, and that they messed up the beast form druid in PHB2.

Mando Knight
2010-03-09, 05:32 PM
I think the main thing is, "If done correctly." Pretty much any class in any edition can be playable with the right about of optimization, but part of the joy of 4e is that, the vast majority of the time, you can pick whatever class/race combo makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside, pick whatever powers, feats and items look shiny, and you'll be fine. Having not played an avenger, I have no idea whether or not this is true for them.

Avengers are fine when played like this, just so long as you don't have a Ranger or Barbarian in the group and get envious of their massive damage rolls. The Avenger plays fine when you grab as big a weapon as the Barbarian and pound enemies to dust with nearly undeniable attacks while ignoring the exact damage numbers that the Barbarian, Ranger, or Rogue can put out when they do hit.

Yakk
2010-03-10, 03:54 PM
Avengers are fine when played like this, just so long as you don't have a Ranger or Barbarian in the group and get envious of their massive damage rolls. The Avenger plays fine when you grab as big a weapon as the Barbarian and pound enemies to dust with nearly undeniable attacks while ignoring the exact damage numbers that the Barbarian, Ranger, or Rogue can put out when they do hit.
The Avenger plays fine when you attack things, and ignore the fact that the Fighter is both defending and matching your damage output. As is the Ardent Paladin.

It also causes problems when you, say, replace another striker with the Avenger, and watch as fights get tougher.

The difference is less than a factor of 2, I'll admit: it isn't as if the Avenger is useless.