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Marisa
2010-03-07, 07:31 PM
Hey guys. This is my first post here after months of lurking, so... hi :smallsmile:

Here's the thing. I'm having this problem with my character and I was hoping you could help. I need to bring up a little Arcane Archer from the very first levels - not that tricky, you'd say, there are plenty good builds around... well, if only.
This character I'm playing - she has quite the temper. Yep, I'm actually role-playing, and that's where the troubles start. For instance, I can't give her any decent Cha score. She is not very nice, sucks at diplomacy, is really blunt etc. Int suffers too with her, but then she has pretty good Wis. She is a ranger and a nature-lover (yep, high Survival), so - no Fighter levels instead of Ranger, she just wouldn't go there. And most assuredly no Bard at all, as many suggest. And DDO bonuses for action points can't be applied here since this is strictly DnD character.
I understand that I probably won't be able to optimize her the best way due to all those restrictions, but I really need at least something to make this work! On the top of all that I'm fairly new do the whole DnD system and I feel this girl is going to make my head explode soon. (She does that to people. That's why I love her :smallbiggrin: )
So, here's me with my 1st level Elf Ranger (32 point buy):
Strength 16
Dexterity 16
Constitution 14
Intelligence 8
Wisdom 14
Charisma 8
And she has just those 150 gp with her for the start, so no expensive items, no tomes, no nothing - at least for now. What is the best way to raise her? How many Ranger levels should I take? And then what - Wizard, Corcerer? Sheesh, she will be scaring the mobs off just with her 'awesome' arcane proficiency :smallsigh:

Oh, and if I messed it up, sorry for my English - it's not my native :smallredface:

mikethepoor
2010-03-07, 07:42 PM
First off, you really need to bring up those INT and/or CHA scores. No arcane casting class I know of casts based off WIS, so with scores below 10 you won't actually be casting anything. This ends up disqualifying you from the arcane archer PrC altogether, as you won't be able to cast even 1st-level arcane spells. If you do get those scores up, I'd recommend going with wizard because of its more versatile spell selections, plus the INT boost gives you more skill points. This is going to require some cuts somewhere, and I'd actually divert some points from STR to get that INT where it needs to be.

Your caster level and spell selection are going to be really limited, unless you don't mind putting your BAB through the floor. Arcane archer doesn't improve your spells/day, spells known, or caster level at all. I'd take somewhere between two and four levels of wizard to get 1st and 2nd level spells, but more than that is really going to cramp your ranger class features. Don't forget that the ranger gets some divine spells too; you might want to put more effort into those than arcane casting.

erikun
2010-03-07, 07:44 PM
You need to be able to cast 1st level arcane spells to qualify for the Arcane Archer prestige class. Doing so with 8 Intelligence and 8 Charisma won't work - one or the other is needed for arcane spellcasting! Probably the best solution would be to talk to your DM, and try to allow 1st level divine spellcasting to work for the Arcane Archer. That way, you can qualify as an 8th level Ranger. (or you could ask for the DM to simply drop entry requirements, as they are usually silly)

If you are planning on a Wizard/Ranger, then you'll need a bit of Intelligence. (You need at least 11 INT to cast 1st level spells.) On the other hand, you won't be high enough level to cast any Ranger spells, so you don't need as much as 14 Wisdom. Dropping it to 10 Wisdom should work for you just fine. In this case, Ranger 6/Wizard 1 or Ranger 5/Wizard 2 will be best, depending on if you want more spells or the Ranger's combat style.

For feats, Precise Shot (a requirement for Arcane Archer) helps a lot when shooting people your allies are swordfighting. Both of the other required feats, Point Blank Shot and Weapon Focus, will add a +1 to hit, so just choose whichever order you'd like.

I hope that helped!

Soranar
2010-03-07, 07:51 PM
First , I should point out that Arcaner archer is a terrible prestige class. It's basically the benefits of a magic weapon.

As pointed out above, you can't cast arcane spells without some Cha or Int.

Since you're stuck playing an elf, I recommend snow elf. The Stat modifiers fit better (+2 Dex , -2 Cha) from Frostburn.

STATS (32 pts buy)

Str 14
Dex 17
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 6

To qualify for Arcane Archer, you can take the feat Sword of the Arcane Order. It let's you swap a ranger's spellslots for a wizard spells. You just need a spellbook like a normal wizard.

This way you can go straight ranger (best breakoff would be level 6 for the free feat)

If allowed I'd swap my animal companion for solitary hunting (you gain your favored enemy bonus on to-hit as a competence bonus (stacks with everything). As you intend to multiclass so it would be extremely weak.

Kylarra
2010-03-07, 07:57 PM
Assuming you take wizard as suggested, you should probably take the martial variant wizard that trades scribe scroll and the other bonus feats for fighter bonus feats at 1st and every 5 levels.

nekomata2
2010-03-07, 08:17 PM
Ask your DM if you can use the Pathfinder Arcane Archer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/arcane-archer). At least it gets 7/10 casting...

Jacob Orlove
2010-03-07, 08:17 PM
If you want to keep the same ability scores, look into feats that let you cast a few spells per day as a spell like ability. I'm not sure if there are any that offer first level spells (they tend to be 0-level cantrips), but you might find something. That would let you enter the class after six levels of ranger.

ericgrau
2010-03-07, 08:30 PM
Simple. Ranger X / wizard 1 (or 2) / arcane archer 10 / ranger X.

All you need is an 11 int to get a level of wizard. Any more will give you an extra 1st level spell at best. Almost useless. You could actually get away with an int of 9 if you get a magic item to boost your int to 11.

As for the basics on being effective:

Feats: In most parties you'll need precise shot. Your first level feat should probably be point blank shot for the +1 and so you can get precise shot later. Weapon focus is very nice too. Rapid shot is the best for an archer, but you already get that from being a ranger. Beyond that, take your pick. You'll probably want a lot of the archery feats.

Skills: Many people ignore most of these rules, even the DM. Read them carefully (especially survival, since you like it so much) or you'll be nothing but a fighter with less feats and worse armor. There are cheat sheets in my signature you can use to make it easier. Showing the wilderness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm) rules (also in the DMG) to the DM and begging him to make more wilderness encounters wouldn't hurt either

Favored Enemy: You don't want your favored enemy bonuses to go unused. Find out what kind of campaign it will be if you can. Or figure out what kind of monsters your DM likes. For example, some DMs might like to throw in some undead from time to time. That's just 1 type, so if you pick undead with such a DM you're bound to fight at least some. But if you picked plant creatures and those almost never cross your DMs mind, that'll be a bit of a waste.

Spells (later): Rangers have a lot of good wilderness related utility spells. Again, read them carefully before choosing your spells and nudge your DM towards wilderness encounters.

Equipment: Right now there's not much to it. The ranger starting package in your player's handbook should be plenty. Rope, some kind of light, flint and tinder, a potion of cure light wounds (50gp, heals 1d8+1 HP), oil (see oil rules in equipment section of PHB) and maybe an alchemical item or two (though they're kind of expensive right now) are some other common good items at level 1. A few masterwork arrows (6 gp and 5 cp each) could be good for serious fights. They give you a +1 on attack rolls.

Equipment to go for later:

Weapon: Never increase your bow beyond a +1; that's what arcane archer is for. Check out the various enchantments you can add here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm . Also get a lot of different arrows for special occasions, like cold iron, adamatine, silver and bane arrows to be ready for a variety of monsters. Individual arrows cost 1/50th the cost of a bow with the same enchantments. All magic weapons must have at least a +1 before you add any enchantments. It's a waste because it doesn't stack with your class features but that's what the rules require. To upgrade a weapon (or any item), simply find an NPC crafter in town and pay him the difference in price between your old bow and your new bow. Arrows must be made in sets of 50, so hopefully your DM will let you buy individual arrows that are already made rather than finding a crafter and paying for so many.


Misc Items: Boots of speed, gloves of dexterity and lesser bracers of archery are key.

AC: You don't need much since you're in the back, but a +1 here and there are cheap. Items to look at are magic armor, ring of protection, amulet of natural armor and dusty rose prism ioun stone.

Marisa
2010-03-07, 08:40 PM
Thank you all for help. You gave me some really interesting ideas, with martial wizards and solitary hunting... I don't think any animal companion could stand a person with 6-8 Cha anyway :smallsigh: And hunting sounds right for her.


with scores below 10 you won't actually be casting anything

You need at least 11 INT to cast 1st level spells.
So do I need 10 or 11 Int?


That would let you enter the class after six levels of ranger.
That would be really nice...

But come to think of it, my character is more combat style oriented. So maybe I shouldn't bother with AA at all? If I can get all the class offers just buying a magic weapon later?.. I was under impression that AAs are capable of more. Was I mistaken?

ericgrau
Oh, thanks for the equipment, I was having troubles with that too. Btw, since I'm an elf, do I need any light at all? Elves have low-light vision, after all.

KellKheraptis
2010-03-07, 08:44 PM
On the gish thread on D20CO, Dictum Mortum had an awesome Duskblade Arcane Archer, all 10 levels, that didn't suck. 20 CL/20 BAB no less, though hardly the offensive capability of a full caster.

mikethepoor
2010-03-07, 08:44 PM
So do I need 10 or 11 Int?

You do need at least 11 INT to be able to cast 1st-level spells. At 10 INT you're limited to 0-level. Sorry about that, I should've stated it more clearly.

Marisa
2010-03-07, 09:08 PM
mikethepoor
I see, thanks for clarifying that.

KellKheraptis
Tempting, but my character is a ranger :smallfrown:

tyckspoon
2010-03-07, 09:13 PM
But come to think of it, my character is more combat style oriented. So maybe I shouldn't bother with AA at all? If I can get all the class offers just buying a magic weapon later?.. I was under impression that AAs are capable of more. Was I mistaken?


The best feature is at level 2, Imbue Arrow, which lets you place any Area spell into an arrow and use your bow's range instead of the spell's normal range- even if the original spell was Personal or Touch only. The problem with that is if you did a minimum-casting entry.. you don't have any spells worth using it with. Things like Grease, Color Spray, and Sleep just don't cut it at level 9+ when you can get the ability.

So, if you want to use that, you need more casting levels. Which means you probably have enough magic to make good use of Greater Magic Weapon. Which makes your free magic arrows pointless, as you can now achieve the same effect by GMWing your bow and end up only about a + behind what you would get from sinking those levels into Arcane Archer.

Seeker Arrow and Phase Arrow are legitimately cool and useful, but that 1/day restriction kills them. There is basically no chance that you are going to want to use those abilities and only want to fire one arrow at your target. Hail of Arrows is.. well, you might find use for it, I don't see the point. You will generally contribute more by focus-firing a single target with a full attack than by pinging every enemy with a single arrow. Arrow of Death has a weaksauce save DC for a level 17+ ability.

The upside? You get full BAB and the entry requirements are mostly things you would take anyway as an archer. That's pretty much it.. otherwise, you either have to take a lot of casting class levels to make it useful (in which case you're better off with a more normal Gish build that happens to use a bow) or you completely waste a level to get into it for relatively little payoff.

BenTheJester
2010-03-07, 09:17 PM
On the gish thread on D20CO, Dictum Mortum had an awesome Duskblade Arcane Archer, all 10 levels, that didn't suck. 20 CL/20 BAB no less, though hardly the offensive capability of a full caster.

It was not Dictum, as Dictum seems completely opposed to multiclassing a Duskblade.

Link to the said Arcane Archer (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=525.msg69667#msg69667)

Even if you don't build it like that, you should really play a Fire Elf, it seems to fit your character's personality quite well.

RebelRogue
2010-03-07, 09:29 PM
It was not Dictum, as Dictum seems completely opposed to multiclassing a Duskblade.

Link to the said Arcane Archer (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=525.msg69667#msg69667)
How does it get 20 caster levels? :smallconfused:

Pluto
2010-03-07, 09:31 PM
If you want a non-Cha, non-Int-based Arcane Archer Ranger, you might consider the Dark Hunter (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030315a). It's a wisdom-based arcane casting Ranger PrC. It's 3.0, but easily adapted to 3.5 with a couple skill changes (intuit direction+wilderness lore=>survival).

It's hardly optimized and its casting is frankly pretty terrible, but it seems to be what you're looking for. (It would easily hold up in most games I've ever played.)

tyckspoon
2010-03-07, 09:32 PM
How does it get 20 caster levels? :smallconfused:

Caster level 20, which is not quite the same thing. The answer is Abjurant Champion- I missed it too until I looked specifically for the class build (it's right under the Arcane Archer picture, which.. wasn't where I expected see it.) Abjurant Champion 5 sets your caster level equal to your BAB if that's higher than it would otherwise be, and the build uses only full-BAB classes.

RebelRogue
2010-03-07, 09:33 PM
Caster level 20, which is not quite the same thing. The answer is Abjurant Champion- I missed it too until I looked specifically for the class build (it's right under the Arcane Archer picture, which.. wasn't where I expected see it.) Abjurant Champion 5 sets your caster level equal to your BAB if that's higher than it would otherwise be, and the build uses only full-BAB classes.
Ah, got it. I forgot that class feature.

krossbow
2010-03-07, 09:35 PM
woah, you have an irritable, bad-tempered, (presumably) ugly and most probably stupid character there, looking at the 8 charisma and 8 intelligence :smalltongue:


thats going to be interesting :smallbiggrin:

PinkysBrain
2010-03-07, 09:38 PM
On the gish thread on D20CO, Dictum Mortum had an awesome Duskblade Arcane Archer, all 10 levels, that didn't suck. 20 CL/20 BAB no less, though hardly the offensive capability of a full caster.
Even with CL20 only having low level spells still sucks ... I mean if he has to argue that he can dump all chill touches from a casting in a single arrow you know he reaching a bit. Also this build only comes together at level 12 and it would be plain better if he progressed his casting instead of taking those final 8 levels of arcane archer.

Basically what this build shows ... splitting is OP.

Soranar
2010-03-07, 09:38 PM
Here, I'll break it down for you

Arcane archer abilities

the basics:
full BAB, d10 health, x4 skillpoints per level, proficiencies (armor, shield)

all of this can be achieved via other base classes or prestige classes

AA also requires feats, most of which you would need though (except weapon focus)

AA also requires spellcasting, which doesn't work at all with the build (as AA doesn't progress spellcasting)

you can only enter it at level 7 (requires 6 BAB) and even then through a loophole (say sword of the arcane order, duskblade, etc)

thing is at level 7 you can already afford a bow with a better enchantment (unlimited +2 arrows or +1 with an elemental bonus)

unless your DM is stingy with magic weapons and WBL (wealth by level)

a friendly cleric/mage could always cast magic weapon on a stack of arrows , by level 8 the cleric's bonus is higher than yours or on par most of the time

so that leaves inbue arrow, seeker arrow,phase arrow, hail of arrows and arrow of death

inbue arrow : the fact that you need to be able to cast the spell greatly reduces the utility of this

seeker arrow: you can shoot 1 arrow at someone and it always hits

an arrow is basically 1d6, 1d8 or 1d10 damage + whatever enchantment you can get on it

and you can only do it once a day at level 10 , that is just plain terrible

phase arrow is basically marginally better than this so I won't even bother mentioning why it's no good (level 12 ability)

level 12 means you're facing something with a similar CR for a 4 party group so they're bound to have a lot more hitpoints than what you can do using this action, it's marginally useful in hitting something really far away (although with true strike, a level 1 spell, you can manyshot something for much better results)

Hail of arrows: lets you pinprick a lot of enemies instead of trying to take out a serious one. You also only get it at level 14.

Arrow of Death: is basically a fancy save of die ability that can be replaced by a poison.

btw, if you get all the extra ranger spells possible (too many books to cite), you can replicate all of these abilites except the arrow of death,

you can do it more often and you get them faster

So even the abilities you do get are subpar to what you could have from playing a straight rogue, fighter, ranger or a combination of those classes

if you want a forest oriented character, without spellcasting or animal companions, I'd go for a Barbarian with the alternate class feature from UA

you get a ranger's ranged bonus feats and favored ennemies but you lose your rage (you still have everything else though, d12 hitpoints, a movement bonus, uncanny dodge, trap detection and damage reduction)

you can also drop Wisdom, Cha and Int completely and you don't have to play an elf (although you still can, wood elf works well since you get way more hitpoints anyway)

and 4 levels of fighter you let you get weapon specialization and ranged weapon mastery (+4 to damage, +2 to hit and extra range with 3 feats)

PinkysBrain
2010-03-07, 09:43 PM
She is a ranger and a nature-lover
I'd just play a straight ranger and ask your DM nicely if you can use spells from Spell Compendium, which has some very cool ranger spells (finding a way to use them with scrolls and wands would also be great since ranger only has a very small number of spells per day). The core only ranger spell list is somewhat lacking.

If you find yourself lagging behind the splitting weapon property from Champions of Ruin would fix that right up ... but it's a bit cheesy, so I would avoid it if you can.

Marisa
2010-03-07, 10:05 PM
Okay, I want to bring up an AA less and less :smallbiggrin:
As for different classes, such as Barbarian or Fighter - I can't do that, I have this whole background story for the character, she was raised as a ranger, her father was one, and I understand Barbarian would do good to her feats, but for her that's OOC :smallfrown:
Maybe I should just look for a good damage dealer archer Ranger build then...
You are really helpful, guys, thank you :smallsmile:

PinkysBrain

Spell Compendium, which has some very cool ranger spells
Are those based on Wis score?
I'm not that keen on using magic though, I just want to hit with my arrows good and hard :smallsmile:

The Glyphstone
2010-03-07, 10:14 PM
SC Ranger spells are awesome. There's one that lets you threaten adjacent squares with your bow, one that gives you precision damage, another that increases your range...full of goodness. Ranger spellcasting is WIS-based, so yes, they would key off Wisdom.

faceroll
2010-03-07, 10:19 PM
Rangers get so few spells/day, it's not like you really get to rely on magic. You just get to do some sweet stuff once or twice a battle that would be unexpected. There's one spell in Champions of Ruin (maybe in the Spell Compendium, as well) that makes it so the arrows you shoot for a round all split.

ericgrau
2010-03-07, 10:21 PM
AA is mostly good for people who take a 1 level wizard dip. Those who take many levels of wizard will struggle. This isn't even a misleading class in that regard, since the DMG makes this fact quite clear. Arcane archer really is for combat focused archers.

On the matter of effectiveness, you'll do very well unless you're in a heavily powergamed group. AA gets some flak in these forums because there are theoretically better ways, but it's still fairly decent. Namely the biggest thing arcane archer gives you is an enhancement bonus to attack rolls. You can get almost as much bonus from a party member who casts greater magic weapon on your bow. But that's the catch. Do you have a party wizard or cleric who will buff you? And why greater magic weapon? Why not heroism and flame arrow? Maybe he doesn't have enough spell slots to do all 3.

A cleric OTOH, is a trap. Giving himself full BAB consumes a round that would be better off used to attack. It's only good for bragging about stats. Without the full BAB his buffed attack bonus is still worse than an arcane archer. But better than an unbuffed fighter. Again, only good for bragging. In reality you either play a buffed fighter or if you can't do that then you play an arcane archer.

As for the abilities arcane archers get on even levels, I don't even pay attention to those. That only tends to lead to more traps like people who make wizard heavy arcane archers. Just think of them as minor extras.

So don't let people discourage you if you want to play an arcane archer. Or if you want to play a pure ranger archer, that works to. Everything said above applies exactly the same. And you might want to ask a party caster for greater magic weapon in the morning once he hits level 8 or 12 or so.

EDIT: Oh yeah, low light vision. Low light vision lets you get more out of light. So if for a human a torch would provide light up to 20 feet away and provide dim light to 40 feet, you can see clearly up to 40 feet away from the torch and dimly up to 80 feet away from it. You still can't see in total darkness.

Pluto
2010-03-07, 10:21 PM
Rangers get so few spells/day, it's not like you really get to rely on magic. Can bows hold wand chambers?

KellKheraptis
2010-03-07, 10:24 PM
It was not Dictum, as Dictum seems completely opposed to multiclassing a Duskblade.

Link to the said Arcane Archer (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=525.msg69667#msg69667)

Even if you don't build it like that, you should really play a Fire Elf, it seems to fit your character's personality quite well.

My bad. carnivore is the one who's trademark is :D at the bottom of every post. Still, it's a pretty decent build.

faceroll
2010-03-07, 10:25 PM
Can bows hold wand chambers?

I dunno. Supplementing with wands & scrolls is always a good idea, especially since many of the ranger spells don't rely on caster level or ability score to be useful. If you could get a Caster's Shield on a buckler chasis, then you could cast a scroll off of that.

Mongoose87
2010-03-07, 11:31 PM
Pathfinder's Arcane Archer is so much better, I'd let someone use it in a 3.5e game any day.

PinkysBrain
2010-03-07, 11:38 PM
Are those based on Wis score?
Yep.

I'm not that keen on using magic though
Hmm? Why arcane archer then?

The main spells I'm thinking off are Hunter's Mercy, Find the Gap and Arrow Storm ... those spells make your archery better ... same as the Arcane Archer imbue arrow, which you don't seem to have a problem with. Champions of Ruin also has a few nice ranger spells to improve your archery.

You haven't said what books you can use BTW ...

If it's core only then your options are very limited ... a core only Arcane Archer build can be playable, for instance Elf Wizard 6/Ranger 2/Fighter 1/Arcane Archer 2/Eldritch Knight X. The problem is that you are a caster first and an archer second.

In core only the best archer is a straight ranger.

PinkysBrain
2010-03-07, 11:42 PM
And why greater magic weapon? Why not heroism and flame arrow?
Because it lasts all day.

Maybe he doesn't have enough spell slots to do all 3.
Pearls of power.

I know you know all this ... but if you're going to ask the questions ...

KellKheraptis
2010-03-07, 11:45 PM
Also, if you really wanna couple Ranger and Arcane Archer, see if the DM will OK the Mystic Ranger and Abjurant Champion. Combined with Sword of the Arcane Order and your extra feats, you can potentially snag 9th level Sor/Wiz spells, albeit vastly fewer than a real caster. However, the utility of Ranger will still be there, plus their awesome archery spells, and to top it off, you're a 20 CL/20 BAB gish, who's at least as sturdy if not more so than a straight 20 Duskblade.

Pluto
2010-03-07, 11:48 PM
Elf Druid 8/Wizard 1/Arcane Archer 2/Druid 9 isn't bad at all and matches the OP's fluff pretty well, IMO.

PinkysBrain
2010-03-08, 12:06 AM
Can bows hold wand chambers?
Weapon or shield ... so sure (for the original poster, wand chambers are in Dungeonscape and allow you to use a wand without having to retrieve it by putting it in your weapon or shield).

With 2 gloves of storing you can get a couple more scrolls or wands readily available. (Originally the wand bracelet was a really nice way to store wands/scrolls, but MIC nerfed it from the MoE version by changing the action from free to swift to retrieve something :/)

If you use the Rules Compendium rule for wands/scrolls (no minimum standard action) this makes the low level swift ranger spells quite attractive.

PinkysBrain
2010-03-08, 12:09 AM
Elf Druid 8/Wizard 1/Arcane Archer 2/Druid 9 isn't bad at all and matches the OP's fluff pretty well, IMO.
True, works better than wizard casting if you want to get in at relatively low level ... still, you are caster first and archer remote second.

Paul H
2010-03-08, 12:27 AM
Hi

As already pointed out, Pathfinder has a few better options, though I'd go Eldritch Knight instead of Arcane Archer.

EK has 9/10 CL, and treats your EK levels as Fighter levels for feats, etc, and has full BAB. You'll still have to find a way to increase those caster stats, though.

Ranger is still the best option, though if you really have to, take one level of Cleric with Magic Domain, so you can use Arcane wands (Flame Arrows, etc).

Darkwood Stalker (Complete Warrior, Pg 23) might be useful. Can get into it from Ranger 5. Some useful abilities, like Darkvision & sneak attack, D8 HP, and full BAB. And don't forget Composite Greatbows (CW Pg 154), plus all those nice abilities in Magic Item Compendium!

Cheers
Paul H

PinkysBrain
2010-03-08, 12:44 AM
Darkwood Stalker is a trap ... if you just want to do damage from short range the basic Swift hunter scout/ranger blows that away.

ericgrau
2010-03-08, 01:04 AM
Because it lasts all day.

Pearls of power.

I know you know all this ... but if you're going to ask the questions ...

Yeup. Matters for wilderness, if the ranger gets her way, matters less for dungeons. Heroism and flame arrow still have long durations. Pearls of power otoh are kind of expensive until fairly high levels. Also, a lesser rod of extend is cheaper and can help keep heroism and flame arrow up longer. Especially at higher levels. Yeah, if everything's ideal and everyone in the group has planned and strategized well then there's little need for the arcane archer, but situations vary. Heck, in my last 3 campaigns there wasn't even a source of GMW, go figure. Worst case scenario the arcane archer still keeps up in attack bonus or is a point ahead, but loses out on other class features. Not the end of the world.

Pluto
2010-03-08, 02:49 AM
If obscure splatbooks are open, the Peerless Archer from Silver Marches does the Arcane Archer thing superbly. It gets to enchant its own arrows (just enhancement bonuses, but essentially the same thing as the AA), gets 4d6 ranged sneak attack, it doesn't provoke in melee and it gets Power Attack with its arrows. With a cranked up attack bonus (Knowledge+Law Devotion, Polymorph ridiculousness, some source of Divine Accuracy), this can generate a lot of damage fast.

Marisa
2010-03-08, 07:35 PM
Sorry if I sound stupid - why is the Pathfinder's Arcane Archer better? I think they are allowed in our campaign.


I'm not that keen on using magic though
Hmm? Why arcane archer then?
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against using magic. Just whatever is better for the character.
Also, there are no restrictions on books afaik, as long as it's 3,5-4.


see if the DM will OK the Mystic Ranger and Abjurant Champion
What do I need to take Mystic Ranger classes? I couldn't find any entry requirements.

Paul H
Hi!
To become an Eldritch Knight I'd have to take at least 5 Wizard's levels, is that right?


If obscure splatbooks are open, the Peerless Archer from Silver Marches does the Arcane Archer thing superbly
I'm not sure if 3.0 is allowed, I'll have to clarify that.

One more thing. How bad is AC -1 penalty for the archer? Choosing the armor for my first level, should I go with -1 penalty AC 3 or no penalties, but AC 2?..

Thanks!

Eldariel
2010-03-08, 07:41 PM
Sorry if I sound stupid - why is the Pathfinder's Arcane Archer better? I think they are allowed in our campaign.

They progress spellcasting making the "Imbue Arrow"-ability (only worthwhile class feature Arcane Archer gets) actually useful. Also, the arrow enhancements are actually useful since they aren't single-handedly obsoleted by Greater Magic Weapon.


What do I need to take Mystic Ranger classes? I couldn't find any entry requirements.

There are none. It's an alternative Ranger; gives up some stuff normal Ranger gets in exchange for faster spell progression. Ranger spells are good for archery, particularly from Spell Compendium (Hunter's Mercy, Find the Gap, Arrow Storm just to name a few great ones).


One more thing. How bad is AC -1 penalty for the archer? Choosing the armor for my first level, should I go with -1 penalty AC 3 or no penalties, but AC 2?..

You're talking about ACP? As in Armor Check Penalty? -1 is doable; it makes your hiding and such slightly worse, but the increase in armor class increases your survivability greatly so I'd definitely go for Studded Leather over Leather. Later, you can get Masterwork Studded Leather for no ACP, or eventually a Mithril Chain Shirt (it has ACP 0, Max Dex 6, Armor 4, but it's ~1000gp).

Keld Denar
2010-03-08, 07:44 PM
Armor Check Penalty isn't that big for an archer. I'm assuming you'll be putting ranks in Tumble in order to back away from enemies threatening you, but the DCs for Tumble aren't very high and you can get a synergy bonus from 5 ranks in Jump, along with your Dex focus.

Honestly, I'd say your best bet if you don't want spells would be a Ranger/Scout Swift Hunter build. Swift Hunter is a feat in Complete Scoundrel that stacks your ranger and scout levels for Skirmish and Favored Enemy. Then you just build Scout4/Ranger16 and shoot things to death.

If you want spell, go Ranger20 using the Mystic Ranger variant. Pick up spells from SpC that emulate nearly all of the AA class abilities, except better, and call it a game.

Marisa
2010-03-08, 11:21 PM
I see, thank you.


Honestly, I'd say your best bet if you don't want spells would be a Ranger/Scout Swift Hunter build.
I hear elven race is not recommended for this? Because of multiclassing penalties?

Eldariel
2010-03-08, 11:29 PM
I hear elven race is not recommended for this? Because of multiclassing penalties?

While Elven penalty to Constitution is hugely detrimental to any class, Archer is a slightly safer place for that than others thanks to relatively high Hit Dice and low exposure to damage. If your playgroup plays with multiclass penalties though, may whatever deity you pray to help you.

Though I do feel compelled to point out that Wood Elves (from Monster Manual) have Ranger as their favored class and thus don't run into issues with that regard as a Swift Hunter. They also have a racial Strength-bonus, which makes getting some damage into the bow a bit easier. Wood Elf Mystic Ranger-based Swift Hunter could be just what you want. Mystic Ranger can even learn arcane spells through "Sword of the Arcane Order"-feat, though that's Forgotten Realms-specific [Champions of Valor].


In other words, I suggest:
Wood Elf Mystic Ranger 17/Scout 3 (or Mystic Ranger 15/Scout 4/Cloistered Cleric 1 if you want Travel Devotion) with stat spread like:
12 Str (pre-racials)
16 Dex (pre-racials)
14 Con (pre-racials)
14 Int (pre-racials)
14 Wis (pre-racials)
8 Cha (pre-racials)

With racial modifiers (+2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Con) this comes down at:
14 Str
18 Dex
12 Con
12 Int (you really want some Int for skill points; also, if you want to entertain the idea of Sword of the Arcane Order)
14 Wis
8 Cha


Do note that Strength should be higher otherwise, but Swift Hunter deals most of the damage via. Skirmish meaning Str loses some relevance. Otherwise, dropping to e.g. 10 Int or 12 Wis might be preferable (and as you desire, of course). 12 Con is a bit on the low side, but hopefully you can prove elusive enough to make up for it.

Note that your d8 HD isn't that bad, in the end. Oh, and level-up scores should go to Dex. All of them. You want to hit first and foremost. It also provides you with extra AC, especially up until 26 (when you get Max Dex for a Celestial Armor).

Knaight
2010-03-08, 11:52 PM
Okay, I want to bring up an AA less and less :smallbiggrin:
As for different classes, such as Barbarian or Fighter - I can't do that, I have this whole background story for the character, she was raised as a ranger, her father was one, and I understand Barbarian would do good to her feats, but for her that's OOC :smallfrown:

Or you can use classes like they should be used. They don't need to be canned fluff.:smallannoyed: Raised as a ranger, father was a ranger, that means several things.
1) She is a good archer. Barbarian does that extremely well, high strength, high dex, high health, makes a mean archer since you can put more into str/dex at the expense of con. Pimp wisdom too, if you want too.

2) She is a good wilderness type. Barbarians get 4 skill points per level, so sink one into nature skills, and the improved movement works well with slinking through forests and such. Probably better than track, which you can get as a feat.

3) She has a pet, and some spells. Multiclass into druid, improve caster level. There is probably a good prestige class for this as well, and it pushes the whole nature thing well.

4) Assuming the use of the canned ranger fluff, the whole mystical forest person is enhanced through some more atypical abilities. DR 1 means you can tell brambles to ignore you, don't get cuts running through the brush, etc. Oh, and since you multiclassed into druid, you speak druidic. Useful.

Now, lets do ranger without spells. 1-2 still apply, which is easy with Barbarian. Scout synergizes nicely with barbarian as well, and you can dip fighter to grab some feats.

PinkysBrain
2010-03-09, 05:24 AM
Rather than the Mystic Ranger I'd ask the DM to allow the prestige ranger from UA.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigeRanger

A Druid 4/Fighter 1/Prestige Ranger X would have sufficient spell slots for the ranger spells from SPC. Just having a normal spell list is simpler than trying to juggle wands and scrolls, and also allows you to use things like the circlet of rapid casting from MiC.

You also have an almost full strength animal companion (normal ranger animal companion become impossible to keep alive at higher levels).

Just a for instance for why the spell compendium ranger spells are so good ... lets say you have a couple turns time to set up an ambush. You start by casting Find the Gap, which makes your first attack each round hit touch AC. Then you cast Hunter's Mercy (if you hit next round it's a crit) for a nice alpha strike. If you want to add insult to injury use an arrow with some crit properties, prismatic burst from MiC is one of the best (does make for an expensive arrow though, a +1 prismatic burst arrow is around 650 gp ... if you can cast hunter's mercy frequently you really want prismatic burst on your bow in the end).

Marisa
2010-03-09, 08:07 PM
Eldariel

Wow, I really liked this build. So I went and tried suggesting Mystic Ranger to our DM. That's when he suddenly decided he doesn't want Mystic Rangers :smallconfused: And I had to come up with something quickly since we already started playing today and they needed my character.
Oh well. I went a regular Ranger instead. Wood Elf idea was awesome, so I went a Wood Elf too. I suppose I could still take a few classes of a Scout later? Btw, how many would be optimal for a Ranger/Scout Swift Hunter build?
My-my, I feel so confused, I hate being rushed like that. On the top of all, our pointbuy was 28 not 32. So I have it Str 14 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8 in the end. I hope that's decent?
*goes away grumbling*

sambo.
2010-03-09, 11:53 PM
my $0.02:
i'm playing a drow ranger/wizard aiming for AA in a PbP campaign.

if it wasn't for the Craft: Poisonmaking skill i've been dumping insane numbers of skillpoints (and gold) into and brewing up DC20 sleepyjus, i'd be pretty seriously crap (the +2 LA just SUCKS at low levels. i can't wait to start buying some of it off).

Archers in vanilla 3.5 get royally rogered. Point Blank Shot is nowhere near as good as it was in earlier editions (it used to DOUBLE damage inside the "loading zone")

Bows really, really need either A: some easy'ish way of getting Dex to Damage and/or B: a Power Attack equivalent ability.

Eldariel
2010-03-10, 02:11 AM
Eldariel

Wow, I really liked this build. So I went and tried suggesting Mystic Ranger to our DM. That's when he suddenly decided he doesn't want Mystic Rangers :smallconfused: And I had to come up with something quickly since we already started playing today and they needed my character.
Oh well. I went a regular Ranger instead. Wood Elf idea was awesome, so I went a Wood Elf too. I suppose I could still take a few classes of a Scout later? Btw, how many would be optimal for a Ranger/Scout Swift Hunter build?
My-my, I feel so confused, I hate being rushed like that. On the top of all, our pointbuy was 28 not 32. So I have it Str 14 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8 in the end. I hope that's decent?
*goes away grumbling*

Seems fine. 14 Wis would be nice for your full spellcasting (non-mystic ranger gets 'em too, just slower and less), but you'll have time to buy upgrades there later. I'd probably have cut 2 Str for 2 more Wis but otherwise done the same. And yeah, when you eventually get a +6 Wis-item, you'll still have a bonus level 4 slot so you're fine in that regard.

If you use normal Ranger, I'd use the Player's Handbook II-variant "Distracting Attack" to trade out your Animal Companion for something useful. Alternatively, if you have access to them, Shooting Star substitutions from Champions of Valor are great.


And yeah, Scout 3/Ranger 17 seems fine (Scout-level first to maximize your skill points; if you are expected to be the trap disarmer, you'll have to max that out too and you prolly want 12 Int that way). If you find you need a feat, Scout 4 adds one more.

And if you have trouble activating Skirmish consistently, getting a level (or two if you play by multiclass penalties) of Cloistered Cleric gets you Travel Devotion by trading away Travel-domain, which makes moving a ton easier. Burn all 2 Turn Undead-attempts on it and get Extra Turning-feat (from e.g. Undeath-domain) and burn all those Turn Undead-uses on Travel Devotion too. Gets you 4 uses per day, which is already respectable. Other than that, Greater Manyshot is good.

Marisa
2010-03-17, 08:23 PM
Sorry, I was away from the Internet for two weeks :smalleek:
Thanks for your advises. Anyway, I have to get to Ranger 16-17 first, and that doesn't look like happening any time too soon...

Eldariel
2010-03-17, 08:27 PM
Sorry, I was away from the Internet for two weeks :smalleek:
Thanks for your advises. Anyway, I have to get to Ranger 16-17 first, and that doesn't look like happening any time too soon...

Wis also improves several key skills and your worst save in Will. That said, don't fret it; I'm sure you'll be fine either way.

Marisa
2010-03-18, 02:55 AM
Okay. Thanks again, you really helped.
:smallsmile: