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KingVic
2010-03-07, 08:59 PM
does anyone have a list that puts all of D&D 3.5 classes into tiers?

HCL
2010-03-07, 09:15 PM
bg's is pretty good, no they dont some of the obscure ones classified but most of the classes that get played often are and you can guess some of the ones you don't know from classes that are similar (Psychic rogue is pretty much in line with beguiler, wilder and ardent with psychic warrior, incarnate with rogue, totemist with barbarian)

Optimystik
2010-03-07, 09:23 PM
bg's is pretty good, no they dont some of the obscure ones classified but most of the classes that get played often are and you can guess some of the ones you don't know from classes that are similar (Psychic rogue is pretty much in line with beguiler, wilder and ardent with psychic warrior, incarnate with rogue, totemist with barbarian)

You also have to take ACFs into account. An Ardent with Dominant Ideal and custom mantles is Tier 2 for instance (equal to a Psion), while an Educated Wilder is also ahead of a Psywar.

The BG list does take this into account for some classes (e.g. Zceryll Binders are a tier ahead of regular ones) but not all of them.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-07, 09:32 PM
bg's is pretty good, no they dont some of the obscure ones classified but most of the classes that get played often are and you can guess some of the ones you don't know from classes that are similar (Psychic rogue is pretty much in line with beguiler, wilder and ardent with psychic warrior, incarnate with rogue, totemist with barbarian)

Ehh? Ardent is Tier 2 last I checked. And the Totemist is the middle of Tier 3, not Tier 4.

KingVic
2010-03-07, 09:35 PM
could I have the links please? thanks in advance

Optimystik
2010-03-07, 09:44 PM
There are no real links (besides BG's (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0)) - the unlisted classes are just common knowledge, really.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-07, 09:45 PM
There are no real links (besides BG's (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0)) - the unlisted classes are just common knowledge, really.

More recent version. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.0)

magic9mushroom
2010-03-07, 09:46 PM
The Tier 1s are obvious (spellcasters with large lists and unlimited spells known), the Tier 2s are obvious (spellcasters with powerful lists and limited spells known), the Tier 5s are pretty obvious.

Tier 3/Tier 4 is more complicated.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-07, 10:04 PM
The Tier 1s are obvious (spellcasters with large lists and unlimited spells known), the Tier 2s are obvious (spellcasters with powerful lists and limited spells known), the Tier 5s are pretty obvious.

Tier 3/Tier 4 is more complicated.

Yeah, I'm not convinced that the middle tier differences are always clear. Even the distinctions between Tier 2 and Tier 3 aren't always convincing. For example the notion that a default binder is T3 but Zceryll bumps it up to T2 is arguable. It does however seem clear that a binder with access only to the default vestiges in ToM is T3 and that a binder with access to those plus the various online vestiges does get to be pretty clearly T2. (I'm thinking of Abysm, Arete, Astaroth, Desharis, The Triad, Vanus and Zceryl. Not thinking of non-online official vestiges, i.e. Ashardalon(sp?), Kas and Primus). A large part of that bump is still Zceryll but you don't actually get the big Z until fairly late since Zceryll is a 6th level vestige.

Personally, I'd consider putting the Rogue up to tier 3 rather than 4 but that's a separate discussion.

Edit: Another issue that this implicitly brings up that I had not thought much about: What fraction of the homebrewed vestiges would one need to include to bump the binder up to T1? For example, if one included just the extensive and well done material by The Demented One and Krimm Blackleaf would that push it up a level? Each of the vestiges is clearly balanced, but the size of the option set when taken together becomes very large. Moreover, a fair number are 7th and 8th level vestiges which is just where the binder starts to run low on options.

faceroll
2010-03-07, 10:09 PM
The Tier 1s are obvious (spellcasters with large lists and unlimited spells known), the Tier 2s are obvious (spellcasters with powerful lists and limited spells known), the Tier 5s are pretty obvious.

Tier 3/Tier 4 is more complicated.

Tier 3/4 also get a lot of up-down mobility based on how much more casting you give them through ACFs and racial subs. A ranger with the complete warrior ACF is a fighter with more skill points and a pet. A ranger with the ACF that gives it 6th level casting and a feat for wizard spells is tier 3. Tier 5 and below pretty much get no casting, so you can upgrade them to +1,000,000 damage, and they still aren't going to derail a campaign. Well, maybe a hulking hurler, who chucks the campaign setting into the sun. Literally.

tyckspoon
2010-03-07, 10:11 PM
Edit: Another issue that this implicitly brings up that I had not thought much about: What fraction of the homebrewed vestiges would one need to include to bump the binder up to T1? For example, if one included just the extensive and well done material by The Demented One and Krimm Blackleaf would that push it up a level? Each of the vestiges is clearly balanced, but the size of the option set when taken together becomes very large. Moreover, a fair number are 7th and 8th level vestiges which is just where the binder starts to run low on options.

Do any of them cast Gate as their once-every-five-rounds expended ability? Or allow the Binder to write new vestige abilities from scratch? That's pretty much what you'd need to push Binders all the way up into tier 1.

faceroll
2010-03-07, 10:16 PM
Do any of them cast Gate as their once-every-five-rounds expended ability? Or allow the Binder to write new vestige abilities from scratch? That's pretty much what you'd need to push Binders all the way up into tier 1.

Really? I thought that sort of abuse is pushing T0 material. T1 is being able to spoil the DMs fun with virtually anything the DM does. Druids don't get Gate, for instance. Well, they do get shapechange, and I'm sure you can shapechange into something for a wish to get a candle of invocation to cast gate. Or shapechange into a solar, thank to the new rulings in RC about casting & polymorph effects.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-07, 10:17 PM
Edit: Another issue that this implicitly brings up that I had not thought much about: What fraction of the homebrewed vestiges would one need to include to bump the binder up to T1? For example, if one included just the extensive and well done material by The Demented One and Krimm Blackleaf would that push it up a level? Each of the vestiges is clearly balanced, but the size of the option set when taken together becomes very large. Moreover, a fair number are 7th and 8th level vestiges which is just where the binder starts to run low on options.

Epic Vestiges is considered playable in Epic, which is very rare. That alone puts the Binder in a different class of power from other noncasters. I don't think Epic Vestiges alone is enough to call the Binder Tier 1 in a non-Epic game, but it certainly is worth it if the campaign is all ready in Epic levels.


Personally, I'd consider putting the Rogue up to tier 3 rather than 4 but that's a separate discussion.

It used to be Tier 3, then people pointed out that the Factotum does everything the Rogue does, but with 7th level spells and a better skill list.


Do any of them cast Gate as their once-every-five-rounds expended ability? Or allow the Binder to write new vestige abilities from scratch? That's pretty much what you'd need to push Binders all the way up into tier 1.

If that's all it takes, a Truenamer is Tier 1 as soon as they get 4th level Utterances from the third Lexicon (they effectively get Gate at will due to the DC being much lower for those utterances).

JoshuaZ
2010-03-07, 10:20 PM
Tier 3/4 also get a lot of up-down mobility based on how much more casting you give them through ACFs and racial subs. A ranger with the complete warrior ACF is a fighter with more skill points and a pet. A ranger with the ACF that gives it 6th level casting and a feat for wizard spells is tier 3. Tier 5 and below pretty much get no casting, so you can upgrade them to +1,000,000 damage, and they still aren't going to derail a campaign. Well, maybe a hulking hurler, who chucks the campaign setting into the sun. Literally.

Well, what constitutes an acceptable upgrade in this sense? T5 includes both the healer and the paladin who both get spellcasting. Off the top of my head, one could make a healer potentially nasty without any upgrades in a totally RAW fashion if you choose the right feats. For example, if they take the Mother Cyst feat then they have a potential set of offensive spells and at higher levels get useful minions. Legal and if played that way bumps a healer to T4 arguably. Note that if a Paladin of Tyranny or a Paladin of Slaughter is used then this trick works for them also (although the heavily reduced spellcasting means that they don't really move up a tier but just to the high end of their tier). And there are other ways of expanding a spell-list also that could potentially make the healer quite nasty. Not gamebreaking but not T5 (unfortunately playing the healer as a healer is almost worthless).
And if by upgrading we mean gestalting two T5/6 classes then a healer/paladin or expert/paladin seem to move up a tier. We need to more carefully define upgrade for this to be meaningful.

Optimystik
2010-03-07, 10:20 PM
More recent version. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.0)

Thank you.
*updates*


What fraction of the homebrewed vestiges would one need to include to bump the binder up to T1?

Homebrew is too variable and nebulous to be factored into tier discussions, imo. Sure the Binder has official backing to make your own vestiges, but they are still subject to DM approval. Well, if your DM approves you can homebrew anything you want, so that's a rather redundant clause in this instance I think.

faceroll
2010-03-07, 10:21 PM
Epic Vestiges is considered playable in Epic, which is very rare. That alone puts the Binder in a different class of power from other noncasters. I don't think Epic Vestiges alone is enough to call the Binder Tier 1 in a non-Epic game, but it certainly is worth it if the campaign is all ready in Epic levels.


Totally off topic, but has anyone redone the epic rules? They're a terrible mess, epic casting especially.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-07, 10:26 PM
Totally off topic, but has anyone redone the epic rules? They're a terrible mess, epic casting especially.

There are quite a few good reworks around for specific parts. Unfortunately, no one has put them together into a coherent whole so figuring out how they interact and whether the interactions aren't broken is difficult. There are a few reworks of epic spellcasting floating around. See for example Belial's system (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37410).


Thank you.

Homebrew is too variable and nebulous to be factored into tier discussions, imo. Sure the Binder has official backing to make your own vestiges, but they are still subject to DM approval. Well, if your DM approves you can homebrew anything you want, so that's a rather redundant clause in this instance I think.

Right, which is why I tried to restrict the question to vestiges that are homebrewed by commonly used and known to be balanced. Maybe I should just rephrase the question in a narrow fashion. Does Binder + Demented's get to T1? What about Binder + Krimm's? And Binder + Demented + Krimm? Presumably if either of the first two are yes than the last is yes, and I suspect a good case for that being yes can probably be made.

But yes, without very specific vestiges this quickly becomes too variable to discuss.

Godskook
2010-03-07, 10:33 PM
Re-reading the list, why is CW Samurai tier 6? From what I understand of them, they'd be more accurately placed at the bottom of tier 5. Capable of doing one thing(fear inducement), but not necessarily well(Due to the volume of fear-immune critters out there).

JoshuaZ
2010-03-07, 10:35 PM
Re-reading the list, why is CW Samurai tier 6? From what I understand of them, they'd be more accurately placed at the bottom of tier 5. Capable of doing one thing(fear inducement), but not necessarily well(Due to the volume of fear-immune critters out there).

Yes, this argument has been made before. If they are T6 then they are at the very top of T6. Unfortunately they aren't even great at fear inducing because they have trouble inducing fear in multiple enemies at once (IIRC, I don't pay much attention to the CW Samurai).

tyckspoon
2010-03-07, 10:38 PM
If that's all it takes, a Truenamer is Tier 1 as soon as they get 4th level Utterances from the third Lexicon (they effectively get Gate at will due to the DC being much lower for those utterances).

This is actually why the Truenamer is not treated within the tiers, IIRC. They're mostly on a Tier 5 or 6 level (or worse, depending on the Utterances you choose)- except for that one ability, which when achieved skyrockets them all the way up to the big dogs, because you can do *anything* when you can Gate whenever you want. It also raises the question of whether you want to average a Tier rating over all of a class's levels or just pick the highest points. If you average it- especially if you weight it for the most commonly played levels- tiers 1-3 are still really awesome. Tier 4 gains a little, because their weaknesses typically aren't as damning at lower levels. Tier 5 and 6 still suck, and Truenamer just isn't worth thinking about.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-07, 10:51 PM
Ehh? Ardent is Tier 2 last I checked. And the Totemist is the middle of Tier 3, not Tier 4.

Wait, why is the ardent tier 2? I thought it got way too few powers known?

faceroll
2010-03-07, 10:53 PM
Barbarian's tier 4? Is that because of pounce? It's always struck me as a high tier 5 to me.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-07, 10:59 PM
Wait, why is the ardent tier 2? I thought it got way too few powers known?

That's Wilder. Ardent gets 21 powers known, and the right mantles (or ACFs) give them the right powers they need.

I do admit, the higher level Psionic powers aren't all that impressive. The low level ones are where it's at.


Barbarian's tier 4? Is that because of pounce? It's always struck me as a high tier 5 to me.

Pounce is some good. The class is only one or two levels long though. Prior to that ACF, the Barbarian had Trap Smasher from Dungeonscape, which made it a Full BAB Trapfinder.

faceroll
2010-03-07, 11:00 PM
Pounce is some good. The class is only one or two levels long though. Prior to that ACF, the Barbarian had Trap Smasher from Dungeonscape, which made it a Full BAB Trapfinder.

In that case, fighter is only one or two levels long (unless you're going dungeoncrasher).

Godskook
2010-03-07, 11:13 PM
Yes, this argument has been made before. If they are T6 then they are at the very top of T6. Unfortunately they aren't even great at fear inducing because they have trouble inducing fear in multiple enemies at once (IIRC, I don't pay much attention to the CW Samurai).

Their L10 ability gives mass staredown, which intimidates everyone in a 30' radius.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-07, 11:18 PM
Their L10 ability gives mass staredown, which intimidates everyone in a 30' radius.

Oh right. I guess the issue then is that prior to 10th level they are clearly in T6? And by the time you get to 10th level a lot of stuff has fear immunity or the like, and many other classes can do about as good a job with fear (not just wizard but also just a dread necromancer when she's bored for example) and at that level a lot of stuff is already invulnerable to fear effects. But yes, this seems like a good example of one where a movement of a single tier could be justified. The distinction between T5 and T6 isn't that strict.

I suppose I could feel useful on occasion playing an unoptimized CW samurai where that really wouldn't happen if I played a warrior. But that's not saying much.

JaronK
2010-03-08, 12:26 AM
Re-reading the list, why is CW Samurai tier 6? From what I understand of them, they'd be more accurately placed at the bottom of tier 5. Capable of doing one thing(fear inducement), but not necessarily well(Due to the volume of fear-immune critters out there).

I've always wavered on that one. With Imperious Command they're clearly in T5 as soon as they get AoE fear effects, and even without they're clearly at the top of T6. At the same time, there's armor in Drow of the Underdark that just gives their 14th level ability for IIRC 5kgp. And Dread Pirates and Scarlet Corsairs get their AoE staredown effect, only better, after 5 levels. The Never Outnumbered skill trick gets pretty close to it too and you can have that around level 5 on any class. The fact that every good trick they have is easily gotten somewhere else (and often cheaper or better somewhere else) makes them pretty lame. A Zhentarium Fighter 9/Dread Pirate 5 is nearly strictly better than a Samurai 14, for example, which says that combo should be at least 2 tiers above... which Zhentarium Fighter already is. They do have Diplomacy though and that's nice. I dunno, at some point I might put classes in blue that are at the top of their tier, and classes in red that are at the bottom... CW Samurai would be in blue in that case. Basically the issue with the Samurai is that it has a lot of useless abilities, but if you optimize it well it's VERY easy to push it up quick, yet that same level of optimization would push everyone else up as well, so it's a little harder to place than some.

And yes, the Barbarian is at the bottom of T4. Easy access to Pounce and Improved Trip (without needing Int, Wolf Totem) make it quite strong, and it's very good at its main thing (dealing lots of damage). Since that main thing is very useful, that says T4. But it's right at the edge, as after level 2 it gains very little (it still doesn't NEED to multiclass out to stay viable, it just doesn't have that much more to offer).

As for the Truenamer, it's impossible to place. If unoptimized it's clearly T6... it can't use its abilities on anyone of its CR, and is thus equivalent to a Commoner (who can at least make a lot of chickens). If optimized at mid levels it's just pretty good and at high levels it can spam Gate. It's just all over the map.

JaronK

magic9mushroom
2010-03-08, 06:40 AM
As for the Truenamer, it's impossible to place. If unoptimized it's clearly T6... it can't use its abilities on anyone of its CR, and is thus equivalent to a Commoner (who can at least make a lot of chickens). If optimized at mid levels it's just pretty good and at high levels it can spam Gate. It's just all over the map.

JaronK

While I agree, I think you can assume that a Truenamer at 20 will at least have a Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue and a +30 competence item to Truespeak (since they're just that obvious).

That alone allows them to use most of their utterances quite easily for a few tries. You get +23 (Ranks) + 12 (Int) + 30 (competence) + 10 (enhancement). That's +75 to Truespeak, which can get a normal utterance to work on a CR 20 creature 100% of the time for 11 shots.

That said, they are unbearably weak at lower levels when they have a stupidly small amount of utterances, no metautterances, and little in the way of class features.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-08, 12:15 PM
While I agree, I think you can assume that a Truenamer at 20 will at least have a Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue and a +30 competence item to Truespeak (since they're just that obvious).

That alone allows them to use most of their utterances quite easily for a few tries. You get +23 (Ranks) + 12 (Int) + 30 (competence) + 10 (enhancement). That's +75 to Truespeak, which can get a normal utterance to work on a CR 20 creature 100% of the time for 11 shots.

That said, they are unbearably weak at lower levels when they have a stupidly small amount of utterances, no metautterances, and little in the way of class features.

Except that CR is based on the total encounter, and high level encounters often have multiple enemies whose total CR is above the party's level. When you need to meet the DC of a CR 24 encounter while targeting a Greater Stone Golem, you can tell your main class feature is borked.

Oslecamo
2010-03-08, 12:26 PM
Except that CR is based on the total encounter, and high level encounters often have multiple enemies whose total CR is above the party's level. When you need to meet the DC of a CR 24 encounter while targeting a Greater Stone Golem, you can tell your main class feature is borked.

Actualy, all the truenamer cares are the HD of the target he's trying to affect, so a greater stone golem is actualy an easy target. And then he can always buff the party and himself.

The beguiller on the other hand can pretty much just cry when facing enemies immune to illusions and mind control (like golems), yet a lot of people love the class.

And an unoptimized wizard is basicaly a commoner. d4 HD, low BAB and firing his crossbow because all the spells he prepared are useless.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-08, 12:29 PM
Actualy, all the truenamer cares are the HD of the target he's trying to affect, so a greater stone golem is actualy an easy target. And then he can always buff the party and himself.

The beguiller on the other hand can pretty much just cry when facing enemies immune to illusions and mind control (like golems), yet a lot of people love the class.

And an unoptimized wizard is basicaly a commoner. d4 HD, low BAB and firing his crossbow because all the spells he prepared are useless.

The HD version is when you target a creature with class levels. The CR version is the one you use on anything without class levels.

Gnaeus
2010-03-08, 12:52 PM
Actualy, all the truenamer cares are the HD of the target he's trying to affect, so a greater stone golem is actualy an easy target. And then he can always buff the party and himself.

The beguiller on the other hand can pretty much just cry when facing enemies immune to illusions and mind control (like golems), yet a lot of people love the class.

Have you even read the 3.5 rulebooks? Sometimes I think someone cut your books into tiny pieces and you are trying to tape them back together in a way that sort of makes sense.

Golems are not immune to illusions. Only to effects that allow SR. Many useful illusions do not.

Beguilers have a number of useful buff spells on their list.

It is a trivial matter for beguilers to add to their lists with feats or PRCs. They can easily get spells that can harm or bypass a golem. I would go so far as to say that ANY moderately optimized beguiler is either aiming for a spell list expanding PRC or at the very least exploiting Arcane Disciple.

Unlike monks, Beguilers have UMD as a class skill, coupled with the skill points to keep it maxed without giving up anything important. It is entirely probable that at the point at which they are facing golems, they have the tools that they need to face golems. Let me repeat that. Monks are a MAD class with few skill points and no UMD in class. Beguilers are a SAD class which can easily afford a decent cha with many skill points and UMD in class.

Frosty
2010-03-08, 02:08 PM
What do Monks have anything to do with this thread?

Gnaeus
2010-03-08, 02:11 PM
Oslecamo in general seems to believe that monks can use UMD to bypass their many weaknesses. I find it silly that he doesn't extend the same courtesy to classes that are actually good at UMD, like beguilers.

Frosty
2010-03-08, 02:14 PM
I guess a monk can use UMD...if he really wants to spend a lot of wealth on consumables. Since it's cross class he'll probably fail a lot of the time until higher levels.

Draz74
2010-03-08, 02:29 PM
Oslecamo in general seems to believe that monks can use UMD to bypass their many weaknesses. I find it silly that he doesn't extend the same courtesy to classes that are actually good at UMD, like beguilers.

Oslecamo is a respected competitor in Test of Spite duels. I think you're thinking of someone else. :smalltongue:

Also, note that the maligned Truenamer has Use Magic Device as well. (That should at least be more than enough to outdo Chicken Infested in a comparison between Truenamer and Commoner!)

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-08, 04:14 PM
Oslecamo in general seems to believe that monks can use UMD to bypass their many weaknesses. I find it silly that he doesn't extend the same courtesy to classes that are actually good at UMD, like beguilers.

Um, what? I think you are thinking of another poster. Whose name begins with G, and ends with iacomo.

JaronK
2010-03-08, 09:42 PM
While I agree, I think you can assume that a Truenamer at 20 will at least have a Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue and a +30 competence item to Truespeak (since they're just that obvious).

I've never had access to a +30 skill item in any game. That's why I mention optimization level... some games don't give you access to +30 custom items (or any custom items at all, in fact). Access to custom items that are perfect for your class is what I'd call higher optimization. It's equivalent to assuming a Monk could have an item of persistant wraithstrike or something.

So yes, with +30 competance bonus items and Item Familiars a Truenamer could spam their abilities (which later in the game get quite good). Without that sort of thing, they do nothing. Hard to rank that way.

Beguilers have no trouble with Golems. Golems can't see through illusions that are indirect, and they're too stupid to respond to them.

And I ignore anything that's a Class X fallacy when ranking the tiers, so I ignore Monks using UMD.

JaronK

KingVic
2010-03-08, 09:48 PM
what tier are the classes in Tome of Magic and Magic of Incarnum?

JaronK
2010-03-08, 09:51 PM
what tier are the classes in Tome of Magic and Magic of Incarnum?

Tome of Magic: Binder is T3. I never ranked Shadowcaster, but it's probably in T4 (I don't have enough experience to rank it). Note that there's an online fix created by the writer of the class that you should look at. Truenamers are unranked for reasons given here already.

I'm not familiar enough with Incarnum to rank them, but they seem to be in the T3 area from what little experience I have.

JaronK

Draz74
2010-03-08, 09:52 PM
what tier are the classes in Tome of Magic and Magic of Incarnum?

Binder is 3 (or 2 with some online Vestiges added in).

Shadowcaster is difficult to classify, because it's got powerful tricks like a Sorcerer, but runs out of them very quickly each day. Overall I'd say Tier 4.

Truenamer is typically considered unclassifiable. I'd give it a 5 overall (if not heavily optimized).

Totemist is 3.

Incarnate is probably 4. There are always a few people claiming it should be promoted to 3, but they're suspiciously also the people who are best at using Incarnum, so they're probably unconsciously optimizing it enough to move it up a tier.

Soulborn is a 5.

Jacob Orlove
2010-03-08, 10:00 PM
Beguilers have no trouble with Golems. Golems can't see through illusions that are indirect, and they're too stupid to respond to them.
That's actually understating things:
Any creature that can think, learn, or remember has at least 1 point of Intelligence. A creature with no Intelligence score is mindless, an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions.
As mindless creatures, Golems have no memory. If you put up an illusory wall, they won't remember that there was a corridor there before. If you turn invisible, they won't remember that you were there a moment ago. It's often trivial to bypass a Golem, even if you couldn't take them out in combat. Sometimes Spider Climb is enough!

Frosty
2010-03-08, 10:13 PM
And I ignore anything that's a Class X fallacy when ranking the tiers, so I ignore Monks using UMD.

JaronK
What is a "Class X Fallacy?"

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-08, 10:33 PM
What is a "Class X Fallacy?"

He likely means using abilities that are not class features, ACFs, or Racial Sub levels to say the class is good. Anyone and everyone can abuse UMD if they invest enough in it, but that doesn't mean the class used is actually a good class.

Having UMD as a class skill is considered when determining Tier placement, as those classes don't need to invest as heavily as others do. Still, it accounts only for a minor part, as you are using a system that isn't a natural class feature.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-08, 10:38 PM
Except that CR is based on the total encounter, and high level encounters often have multiple enemies whose total CR is above the party's level. When you need to meet the DC of a CR 24 encounter while targeting a Greater Stone Golem, you can tell your main class feature is borked.

No. Truenaming works off the CR of the creature, which is distinct from the encounter's Encounter Level.


Truenamer is typically considered unclassifiable. I'd give it a 5 overall (if not heavily optimized).

Eh, they get UMD, which is powerful enough to make them Tier 4 even without ability to Truename properly.

Draz74
2010-03-08, 11:05 PM
Eh, they get UMD, which is powerful enough to make them Tier 4 even without ability to Truename properly.

By that logic, Expert should be Tier 4 instead of 5 too.

Just sayin'.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-08, 11:11 PM
By that logic, Expert should be Tier 4 instead of 5 too.

Just sayin'.

Truenamers get a couple of free feats and similar useful stuff. They're also a PC class with all that entails.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-08, 11:11 PM
By that logic, Expert should be Tier 4 instead of 5 too.

Just sayin'.

The lack of class features takes it down a Tier.

The Shadowmind
2010-03-08, 11:29 PM
What do you think is needed to bump warlock's up from tier 4 to tier 3?
A high number of invocation know might help, maybe having eldritch blast damage increase 1d6 per every two levels for the full progression, instead of slowing to 1d6 per every three levels at level 12. Prehaps a way to add charisma modifier to the damage roll of eldritch blasts, and maybe an item creation feat or two as bonus feats, making the Imbue item class feature a bit better?

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-08, 11:30 PM
What do you think is needed to bump warlock's up from tier 4 to tier 3?
A high number of invocation know might help, maybe having eldritch blast damage increase 1d6 per every two levels for the full progression, instead of slowing to 1d6 per every three levels at level 12. Prehaps a way to add charisma modifier to the damage roll of eldritch blasts, and maybe an item creation feat or two as bonus feats, making the Imbue item class feature a bit better?

Double Invocations known, increase EB damage to 15d6 (so only 5 dead levels), add in the ability to make extra EB shots/round.

T.G. Oskar
2010-03-08, 11:57 PM
Oslecamo in general seems to believe that monks can use UMD to bypass their many weaknesses.


Oslecamo is a respected competitor in Test of Spite duels. I think you're thinking of someone else.

The heck? First and foremost, Comrade Camo isn't the person who mingles Monks with UMD without going Sacred Fist of Wee Jas. I think someone else mentioned the person.

Second, as far as I reckon Camo isn't a Test of Spite competitor. I believe you're referring to Olo, who is the ToS resident cheat-hound (not because he's a cheater; quite the contrary, because he's the one we go look for when there's something that needs a ban. I recall he was the one that caused Aptitude weapons and Lightning Maces to be banned)

Camo, to be precise, is the Earth Federation officer that is defending us from the hordes of Neo Divine Crusaders, Shadow-Mirror operatives, Inspectors and Einsts. You may see his adventures over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120104).

As for usual tricks:
--Anything that grants 9th level spellcasting usually is of a pretty high tier. Warmage isn't a higher tier because it's specialty ability (blasting) is not considered very high in terms of spellcasting power, and Healer is not considered as well since it has very few actually useful spells. Beguiler is often considered not just because of UMD, but because it has illusion spells which work wonders. Just having the Shadow Evoc./Conj. spells makes it almost enough to get a tier up. Dread Necro has the ability to get some decent necromancy spells, rebuke undead (which can be used for Divine Feats) and slow immunities.

--Having UMD naturally allows a character to get one tier up. That's why Rogues are pretty high, actually.

--Usually, prepared spells >> spontaneous spellcasters. Prepared spellcasters are versatile (they can get the right spell at the right time) while spontaneous spellcasters are utility spellcasters (they can spam spells they desire, so they get those that can do more than one thing). In theory, had the warlock's invocations worked better than they usually do, they would get up a tier by having utility invocations at-will as well as UMD.

--Defenses and attacks comprise the rest of the tiers. Mettle + high Fort/Will usually works wonders. Evasion + high Reflex not so much, but its a much-wanted pseudo-immunity. The better defenses you get, the better tier you are. Same with attacks.

--The better you are at action economy, the higher tier you are. That's why the big 6 are right there. Of course, having a pretty high action economy and sub-par options don't get you very high, but when you have 30 set contingencies and still can do three rounds worth of actions, and you can decide how to end the battle in a single round, you realize how things work.

This is using mostly the Tier system guidelines. A character's real power is based on builds and not exactly what the class has; the Tier system serves as a guideline but not exactly as the end-all-be-all, since you can go for a full blaster Wizard and low (or no) optimization and not achieve what your tier is meant to do. Just...saying.

JaronK
2010-03-09, 12:00 AM
What is a "Class X Fallacy?"

A class X fallacy is claiming that a class is powerful compared to other classes because of something that all other classes can do at least as well. For example, "Monks are more powerful because they can use UMD" is a class X fallacy, because the statement "X are more powerful because they can use UMD" is just as true for any class X. Monks, after all, have no special charisma synergy, don't have UMD as a class skill, and lack any special abilities related to UMD. However, "Factotums are more powerful because they can use UMD" would not be a class X fallacy. They do get UMD as a class skill, and they do get abilities to use UMD better, so they actually are good with UMD. While "Commoners are more powerful because they can use UMD" is just as true as "Monks are more powerful because they can use UMD" it's not as true as the same statement for Factotums.

Note that this fallacy only applies to comparative power levels between classes. "Monks are strong enough to survive because they could cross class UMD" would not be a Class X fallacy, whether you agree with the statement or not.

Warlocks could easily be T3 if their UMD abilities and item creation abilities were a bit better and obtained a bit earlier. More invocations known wouldn't hurt either.

JaronK

The Shadowmind
2010-03-09, 12:46 AM
Warlocks could easily be T3 if their UMD abilities and item creation abilities were a bit better and obtained a bit earlier. More invocations known wouldn't hurt either.
JaronK

Hmmm,
Homebrew: T3/T2 warlock.
Hmmm, Imbue item at level 6, with Scribe scroll as a bonus feat, and the ability to use scrolls in light armor with no ASF.
Gets the next item creation feat in the normal creation feat chain as a bonus feat every 3 levels.
Gets 2 invocations at level 1, and gains 2 invocation each time he would of normally gained one.
Lesser invocation:Empowered Blast: Blast Essence Invocation: functions like the metamagic feat of the same name.
Greater Invocation:Maximize blast, Blast Essence Invocation:Function like the metmagic feat of the same name.
Dark Invocation:Quicken Blast:Blast Essence Invocation: This blast makes the invocation only take a swift action.
Dark Invocation:Twin Blast: Blast shape invocation: Function similar to the twin spell metamagic feat.

Needs a bit fleshing out, but I think I'll post a more full version in the homebrew section in a few days.

Zaq
2010-03-09, 02:54 AM
So yes, with +30 competance bonus items and Item Familiars a Truenamer could spam their abilities (which later in the game get quite good). Without that sort of thing, they do nothing. Hard to rank that way.

The bolded part is a common myth, but is just that: a myth. High level Utterances really tend to suck, especially compared to what other classes (of varying power levels: casters, binders, martial adepts, meldshapers, etc.) get at the same level. (No, Gate at 20th level does not make one god damn bit of difference. The Healer gets Gate at 17th level, but that doesn't make it powerful.) There are a few gems, but they're clustered around levels 3 (no-save Slow, flight prevention) and 4 (free Empower, and Spell Rebirth, which is almost as open-worded as IHS) overall. The Truenamer is NOT holding back godlike levels of power which can be released by getting past the stupid Truespeak DCs. Utterances tend to be about on par with or weaker than Invocations. Usually weaker than.

Oslecamo
2010-03-09, 06:04 AM
The heck? First and foremost, Comrade Camo isn't the person who mingles Monks with UMD without going Sacred Fist of Wee Jas. I think someone else mentioned the person.

Second, as far as I reckon Camo isn't a Test of Spite competitor. I believe you're referring to Olo, who is the ToS resident cheat-hound (not because he's a cheater; quite the contrary, because he's the one we go look for when there's something that needs a ban. I recall he was the one that caused Aptitude weapons and Lightning Maces to be banned)

Camo, to be precise, is the Earth Federation officer that is defending us from the hordes of Neo Divine Crusaders, Shadow-Mirror operatives, Inspectors and Einsts. You may see his adventures over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120104).


Thank you very much comrade Oskar. I'm indeed neither a ToS competitor or a suporter of UMD monk, altough I would say every class should try to squeeze some ranks in that skill.

As for the golems being immune to illusions, that's something that has been discussed for a lot of times in this forums. Since they can be disbelieved with will saves, one can extrapolate that they affect the mind, something golems are immune to. I've met several DMs who enforce this interpretation. Invisibility would work against the golem, but then the beguiller is still reduced to a suporter.

Plus, the truenamer gets the following besides utterances:
-Simple weapons and light armor proefeciency.
-4 skill points per level including UMD
-One good save.
-Medium BAB.
-d6 HD

So, even whitout utterances, the truenamer is still superior to the commoner, unlike many people claim here. Minimum tier 5 by your standards.

It also means that unoptimized truenamer is stronger than unoptimized wizard. A wizard who screws over his spells has just d4 HD, less proefeciencies, no armor, 2 skill points/level(and no UMD, altough he can use wizard scrolls and wands whitout trouble) and weak Bab.

At higher optimization, yes, the wizard surpasses the truenamer, but well, very few classes can keep up with the wizard. At least exp-free gate is brutal. The healer still has to pay exp for his gate.

JaronK
2010-03-09, 06:30 AM
The bolded part is a common myth, but is just that: a myth. High level Utterances really tend to suck, especially compared to what other classes (of varying power levels: casters, binders, martial adepts, meldshapers, etc.) get at the same level. (No, Gate at 20th level does not make one god damn bit of difference. The Healer gets Gate at 17th level, but that doesn't make it powerful.)

Actually Gate was the big one I was talking about. And yes, Gate for a Healer does make it powerful... at level 17. Thus, both the Healer and Truenamer get a lot stronger near the end, with the Truenamer not getting really strong until level 20 itself. They're ranked lower in the tiers because levels 16+ are the least played levels of all, so in most games that doesn't matter. There are a few classes like that that really spike up in the last few levels... the Healer, Truenamer, and Factotum are most noticeable.

But yeah, until they get those abilities, they have very little to work with. And since the vast majority of actually played Truenamers and Healers won't ever actually get those abilities, they're not judged on them.

I'm really not sure what an optimized Truenamer would be. From what I've seen of it, I doubt it's above T4. It might even be as low as T5, though I'm not sure on that.

JaronK

JaronK
2010-03-09, 06:42 AM
As for the golems being immune to illusions, that's something that has been discussed for a lot of times in this forums. Since they can be disbelieved with will saves, one can extrapolate that they affect the mind, something golems are immune to. I've met several DMs who enforce this interpretation. Invisibility would work against the golem, but then the beguiller is still reduced to a suporter.

You don't even get to make a save if you don't interact with the illusion. Put an illusion of adamantium walls around a golem and it won't go anywhere unless it's been programmed to walk into walls (something worth considering).


Plus, the truenamer gets the following besides utterances:
-Simple weapons and light armor proefeciency.
-4 skill points per level including UMD
-One good save.
-Medium BAB.
-d6 HD

So, even whitout utterances, the truenamer is still superior to the commoner, unlike many people claim here. Minimum tier 5 by your standards.

Worse than a CW Samurai. T6. The only saving grace is UMD... which is of debatable use. I believe that UMD is heavily overrated on most classes. You see, UMD is only of value if you get items that you can use it on. In games with loot as per the DMG (note that the DMG encourages random loot with the occasional specific item thrown in to benefit one player, and access to shops when you can get to town where you can sell loot at half price to buy stuff you want at full price), the chances of actually getting something to UMD are tiny. Totally random loot will almost never get you a wand of Lesser Vigor or something... the chances are miniscule if the DM even bothers to randomize among non core wands. And if they're throwing you items you need? Then if you hadn't had UMD you would have gotten a different equally useful thing anyway, so that's a wash. The only reasonable chance of getting what you want to UMD is to buy it, and the only way that's actually going to be an advantage at all is if the UMD item is better than all the things you could have bought that wouldn't have required UMD. For example, sure you could have bought a Wand of Lesser Vigor. But would it have helped you just as much to buy the supplies to craft your own Shadowsilk Leather Armor? Perhaps you could have purchased a Warbeast Desmoderu Hunting Bat as a mount instead... wouldn't that have been better? And if the wand really was stronger than anything else you could have had (such as a Wand of Animate Dead or something) are you sure the DM would allow you to have it? And are you sure you can even get to a town regularly? Many of the campaigns I've been in have had us stuck in a dungeon for two or three levels at a time. Getting out to resupply can be hard when the clock is ticking and you don't have a teleporter.

As a result, the chances of UMD actually being a really powerful option are often quite low.

Note that this does not apply at all to classes that can make their own magical gear to UMD, such as the Artificer, Factotum, or Warlock. They have the unique advantage of being able to make whatever they want, and cheap.

So I'm not sure an unoptimized Truenamer is above T6. He's clearly trumped by an Expert, he becomes extremely gear reliant because all he really has is UMD, and the CW Samurai at least has the ability to dominate encounters with Imperious Command. Plus, the Commoner could have endless chickens, which is actually pretty useful if you start getting creative (they'll trigger traps, provide food for an army, or provide minions for a Dread Necromancer with Corpse Crafter, Destructive Retribution, and a maniacal gleam in his eye).


It also means that unoptimized truenamer is stronger than unoptimized wizard. A wizard who screws over his spells has just d4 HD, less proefeciencies, no armor, 2 skill points/level(and no UMD, altough he can use wizard scrolls and wands whitout trouble) and weak Bab.

That's rediculous. A Wizard could have whatever spells he wants. If he picks bad ones, he says "wow, those spells sucked, I want new ones" and next level he's got something much better. If your truenamer can buy stuff to UMD, then the Wizard can buy a few scrolls of something nice too... and permanently have those spells. Sure, your Truenamer can buy a Wand of Alter Self if he really wants and the campaign makes that possible, but if so the Wizard can get a scroll of Alter Self for a much cheaper price and cast it all day long. There's no reasonable way the Truenamer is going to make great use of UMD while a similar Wizard makes terrible use of scrolls... that's not equivalent optimization at all. If the Wizard is always buying scrolls of stupid spells, then we can assume the Truenamer is buying idiotic wands too (fear my UMD'd wand of Disguise Elf!).

JaronK

magic9mushroom
2010-03-09, 06:56 AM
The bolded part is a common myth, but is just that: a myth. High level Utterances really tend to suck, especially compared to what other classes (of varying power levels: casters, binders, martial adepts, meldshapers, etc.) get at the same level. (No, Gate at 20th level does not make one god damn bit of difference. The Healer gets Gate at 17th level, but that doesn't make it powerful.) There are a few gems, but they're clustered around levels 3 (no-save Slow, flight prevention) and 4 (free Empower, and Spell Rebirth, which is almost as open-worded as IHS) overall. The Truenamer is NOT holding back godlike levels of power which can be released by getting past the stupid Truespeak DCs. Utterances tend to be about on par with or weaker than Invocations. Usually weaker than.

Inertia Surge is awesome vs. Tome of Battle characters, I'll note, and is stupidly powerful if you read it by RAW (no-save paralysis). The various Words of Nurturing can be very nasty against things with defenses up, as well, because they ignore everything except Regeneration. Rebuild Item can be useful in situations involving Rust Monsters or Adamantine Horrors. Seize Item has obvious utility.

But yes, they're not all that awesome.

Oslecamo
2010-03-09, 07:02 AM
You don't even get to make a save if you don't interact with the illusion. Put an illusion of adamantium walls around a golem and it won't go anywhere unless it's been programmed to walk into walls (something worth considering).

It depends on what you consider interacting. Several DMs I met consider that just looking at the illusion counts as interacting. Ohers say that noticing that the walls don't block sound or that wind keeps flowing trough them counts as interacting.


Getting out to resupply can be hard when the clock is ticking and you don't have a teleporter.

Well, that makes the wizard as well drop one tier, as a wizard who doesn't have time to sit down and copy new spells/craft stuff isn't better than a sorceror.



As a result, the chances of UMD actually being a really powerful option are often quite low.
Funny then on how optimizers are always telling people to walk around with several wands and scrolls as backup. Even if you're a fullcaster.



Note that this does not apply at all to classes that can make their own magical gear to UMD, such as the Artificer, Factotum, or Warlock. They have the unique advantage of being able to make whatever they want, and cheap.

Only if you have the free time to craft stuff. Unless you're an artificer and you have that cheesy builder homunculus, but that's pretty broken as hell.



So I'm not sure an unoptimized Truenamer is above T6. He's clearly trumped by an Expert, he becomes extremely gear reliant because all he really has is UMD, and the CW Samurai at least has the ability to dominate encounters with Imperious Command.

Imperious command demands optimization. An half optimized truenamer can at least buff himself and be a respectable gish.



Plus, the Commoner could have endless chickens, which is actually pretty useful if you start getting creative (they'll trigger traps, provide food for an army, or provide minions for a Dread Necromancer with Corpse Crafter, Destructive Retribution, and a maniacal gleam in his eye).

I don't think April's fool material is really valid. Plus it's an auto-win for the commoner as he can crush all and any enemy under a rain of chickens with quick draw.



That's rediculous. A Wizard could have whatever spells he wants. If he picks bad ones, he says "wow, those spells sucked, I want new ones" and next level he's got something much better.

If he failed to pick good spells this level, what makes you think he'll pick better ones next level? Plus he's still stuck one level shooting crossbows with bad Bab.



If your truenamer can buy stuff to UMD, then the Wizard can buy a few scrolls of something nice too... and permanently have those spells. Sure, your Truenamer can buy a Wand of Alter Self if he really wants and the campaign makes that possible, but if so the Wizard can get a scroll of Alter Self for a much cheaper price and cast it all day long. There's no reasonable way the Truenamer is going to make great use of UMD while a similar Wizard makes terrible use of scrolls... that's not equivalent optimization at all. If the Wizard is always buying scrolls of stupid spells, then we can assume the Truenamer is buying idiotic wands too (fear my UMD'd wand of Disguise Elf!).


Fair enough, but in that case the truenamer at least still has armor, more HP, +1 skill point and better Bab than the wizard.:smalltongue:

JoshuaZ
2010-03-09, 12:51 PM
It also means that unoptimized truenamer is stronger than unoptimized wizard. A wizard who screws over his spells has just d4 HD, less proefeciencies, no armor, 2 skill points/level(and no UMD, altough he can use wizard scrolls and wands whitout trouble) and weak Bab.


That's assuming a degree of non-optimization for the wizard that is extreme. Something like filling all your spell slots with prestidigitation, detect magic, sending and heightened touches of fatigue. A non-optimized wizard who isn't actively trying to screw themselves over will look like a blaster mage with maybe a handful of save-or-dies. Sure, that's not great. But a blaster wizard is still stronger than a truenamer.

JaronK
2010-03-09, 04:30 PM
It depends on what you consider interacting. Several DMs I met consider that just looking at the illusion counts as interacting. Ohers say that noticing that the walls don't block sound or that wind keeps flowing trough them counts as interacting.

Then your DMs are doing it wrong. From the PHB: "Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not recieve saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion. For example, if a party encounters a section of illusory floor, the character in the lead would recieve a saving throw if she stopped and studdied the floor or if she probed the floor."

Interaction means actually touching it or poking it with something. Clearly, "just looking at the illusion" does not count, as that example makes obvious. By RAW, putting a bunch of illusory walls around a golem stops it cold.


Well, that makes the wizard as well drop one tier, as a wizard who doesn't have time to sit down and copy new spells/craft stuff isn't better than a sorceror.

He still gets two or four new spells per level (depending on what feats he took) which is still four or eight new spells per spell level. That's still far more than the Sorcerer... and I'm sure he can find a source of spells eventually (just not right away).


Funny then on how optimizers are always telling people to walk around with several wands and scrolls as backup. Even if you're a fullcaster.

Recommended, but not required by any means. A wand of Knock means you don't have to memorize Knock ever, and can instead have spells like Glitterdust and Alter Self in that slot. But it's not a requirement at all.


Only if you have the free time to craft stuff. Unless you're an artificer and you have that cheesy builder homunculus, but that's pretty broken as hell.

You say broken as hell, I say standard operating procedure for a craftsmen. It's called a dedicated wight by the way, and you put one in a portable hole so it can take care of things. Note however that the standard adventuring day is supposed to be 8 hours, which leaves 8 hours for crafting and 8 for sleeping.


Imperious command demands optimization. An half optimized truenamer can at least buff himself and be a respectable gish.

No. Having UMD alone along with 3/4 BAB and d6 HD does not a respectable gish make. All that money you're spending on consumables? That could be spent on permanent gear. It's the same problem Giacomo has with his Monks, made even worse in this situation.


I don't think April's fool material is really valid. Plus it's an auto-win for the commoner as he can crush all and any enemy under a rain of chickens with quick draw.

There are no rules for crushing people under a rain of chickens, but it's a good way to detect traps, feed people, and create hilarious chicken dive bomber zombies. Hey, at least it's a class feature.


If he failed to pick good spells this level, what makes you think he'll pick better ones next level? Plus he's still stuck one level shooting crossbows with bad Bab.[/qutoe]

Yeah... I don't see why he's doing this. You're claiming that an "unoptimized" truenamer can be powerful with UMD'd spells. If he's getting those spells, then the same optimization Wizard would be getting equally good spells known. It seems your requirement here is a Truenamer who can't Truename but is optimizing his spell use, but the Wizard is just a complete fool who can't think of anything useful to do. That's not equivalent optimization. If you're comparing him to a Wizard who has totally useless spells such that he just shoots a crossbow, then you should compare that to a Truenamer who uses completely random and useless wands for some reason.

[quote]Fair enough, but in that case the truenamer at least still has armor, more HP, +1 skill point and better Bab than the wizard.:smalltongue:

Frankly it's such a rediculous situation that it's meaningless, and I don't know why we're considering it. Yes, you can make a Wizard weak by doing nothing with it. But when I say "unoptimized Truenamer" I mean "a competant player who doesn't have access to custom gear or the best available feats. It doesn't mean a raging idiot who can't think of anything. And that's the same thing I mean for a Wizard, though perhaps his best spells are banned. A badly played Wizard is one that uses Fireball every chance he can, not one who fills his entire spell slot allowance with Disguise Elf.

JaronK

Oslecamo
2010-03-09, 04:47 PM
Interaction means actually touching it or poking it with something. Clearly, "just looking at the illusion" does not count, as that example makes obvious. By RAW, putting a bunch of illusory walls around a golem stops it cold.

Even then, if the golem was programmed to attack anyone who aproached whitout saying the right word, a wall poping out of nowhere would count as an enemy (it's a foreign object that didn't say the right word). Charge, go trough, now find the beguiller.



He still gets two or four new spells per level (depending on what feats he took) which is still four or eight new spells per spell level. That's still far more than the Sorcerer... and I'm sure he can find a source of spells eventually (just not right away).

Ironically, the sorceror can also learn more spells with feats. And if you're pressed with time, being a spontaneous caster helps a lot, because there's no "return tomorrow with another spells prepared". Problems need to be solved right away.



You say broken as hell, I say standard operating procedure for a craftsmen. It's called a dedicated wight by the way, and you put one in a portable hole so it can take care of things. Note however that the standard adventuring day is supposed to be 8 hours, which leaves 8 hours for crafting and 8 for sleeping.

Don't know about you, but I've never played in a campaign where the DM would allow you to craft magic items in the middle of a dungeon. And nowhere does it say that the adventuring day is 8 hour. The DMG even comments about night ambushes.



No. Having UMD alone along with 3/4 BAB and d6 HD does not a respectable gish make. All that money you're spending on consumables? That could be spent on permanent gear. It's the same problem Giacomo has with his Monks, made even worse in this situation.

I meant making himself a gish with utterations. Since your samurai was using his best class feature, I imagined the truenamer would be allowed to use truenaming. And making the DCs for yourself is easy. Pick the combat buffs. Profit. You're not exactly clericzilla, but can more than do your job.

Using just consumables for buffs won't take you anywhere indeed.



There are no rules for crushing people under a rain of chickens, but it's a good way to detect traps, feed people, and create hilarious chicken dive bomber zombies. Hey, at least it's a class feature.

Actualy it's a commoner only flaw (aka it demans optimization). And there's rules for suffocation. And being crushed by excessive weight if I'm not mistaken. Keep throwing the chickens. Not even the tarrasque will escape.



Frankly it's such a rediculous situation that it's meaningless, and I don't know why we're considering it. Yes, you can make a Wizard weak by doing nothing with it. But when I say "unoptimized Truenamer" I mean "a competant player who doesn't have access to custom gear or the best available feats. It doesn't mean a raging idiot who can't think of anything. And that's the same thing I mean for a Wizard, though perhaps his best spells are banned. A badly played Wizard is one that uses Fireball every chance he can, not one who fills his entire spell slot allowance with Disguise Elf.


Says who? If the party is facing waves of enemies several CR under them, fireball rocks. If you pimp it out with metamagic, fireball rocks. If you're facing the attack of the snow creatures, fireball rocks. That's why the tier system doesn't work very well at all. It assumes people play basicaly like you do, when there's thousands of diferent play styles out there.

Scorpions__
2010-03-09, 09:22 PM
Says who? If the party is facing waves of enemies several CR under them, fireball rocks. If you pimp it out with metamagic, fireball rocks. If you're facing the attack of the snow creatures, fireball rocks. That's why the tier system doesn't work very well at all. It assumes people play basicaly like you do, when there's thousands of diferent play styles out there.

Agreed, just because you can optimize, does not mean everyone in your party wants to optimize. You might have players that would honestly rather throw around fireballs than cheese. And sometimes you don't know until you let them play the class.





DM[F]R

magic9mushroom
2010-03-09, 09:30 PM
But a blaster wizard is still stronger than a truenamer.

Not so sure about that. Reversed Empowered Quickened X Words of Nurturing upgraded to ignore SR can be nasty. Of course, this means you're adding +35 to the Truespeak DC.

Kantolin
2010-03-09, 09:33 PM
Even then, if the golem was programmed to attack anyone who aproached whitout saying the right word, a wall poping out of nowhere would count as an enemy (it's a foreign object that didn't say the right word). Charge, go trough, now find the beguiller.

That then makes wall of force or stone a ridiculously effective tactic against golems (and mindless things), so you might want to watch out before making rulings like that.

Especially since they can't bust the wall down, so they'll have to sit there beating at it until it goes away.

This also means that the beguiler can just make an illusion of a person (or himself) and have it go jog past the golem evading its blows with an ease that anybody would clearly see is magical... but it's a golem. It doesn't see.

Araeliz
2010-03-17, 08:21 PM
Can't respect a list that has monk ranked higher than commoner...

Frosty
2010-03-17, 08:29 PM
What? Due to Handle Animal?