how many housecats...

[krossbow]

would you wager it would take to take down a level 1 party?


thinking it would be wonderfully ironic as a campaign to have a druid controlling housecats murdering peasants (they're an incursion into nature!) and have the party eventually be swarmed by them.

[Bibliomancer]

Hmm...

1 Housecat = 1 commoner

1 commoner = 1/2 CR

8 Commoners = EL 5 (Overwhelming)

So, around 16 housecats would be able to overwhelm most first level parties (although animal companions would complicate the picture).

[Malificus]

are these sneaky cats that are trying to catch the party flatfooted?

[krossbow]

are these sneaky cats that are trying to catch the party flatfooted?


are there cats that aren't sneaky? :smallbiggrin:

[Soranar]

1 minmax fighter (google goblins if you don't know the reference) can easily destroy a large group of housecats

human , wielding a 2handed weapon , with power attack, cleave, great cleave

[Malificus]

1 minmax fighter (google goblins if you don't know the reference) can easily destroy a large group of housecats

human , wielding a 2handed weapon , with power attack, cleave, great cleave

How does a level 1 fighter have a +4 BAB?

[Sinfire Titan]

1 minmax fighter (google goblins if you don't know the reference) can easily destroy a large group of housecats

human , wielding a 2handed weapon , with power attack, cleave, great cleave

Power Attack, yes. Cleave and Great Cleave? Hell no!

[Mongoose87]

How does a level 1 fighter have a +4 BAB?

He cheats, duh.

[Admiral Squish]

How does a level 1 fighter have a +4 BAB?

It's minmax. He's just ridiculous like that.

[BenTheJester]

How does a level 1 fighter have a +4 BAB?

It's an obscure ACF

[ericgrau]

are there cats that aren't sneaky? :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, 28 of them:

Level 1 Fighter: 17 AC, 12 HP, 4 AB, 7.15 avg. damage (3.93 DPR)
Cat: 14 AC, 2 HP, 4 AB, 1.05 avg. damage (single attack 0.42 DPR, full attack 1.00 DPR)

Cat takes 13 rounds to drop a fighter. Fighter drops a cat every other round. So you need about 7 cats per fighter, or 28 cats per party. OTOH at level 1 a fighter or barbarian may be your strongest party member, so it may actually take significantly less. OTOH again a human would have another feat; if he planned for the fight he could even be a cleaver. Or a dwarf would have 1 more HP. Etc., etc.

EDIT: And a warrior is CR 1/2, not a commoner. A cat is CR 1/4 anyway, so by the CR system it takes 16 cats. If the other 3 party members are a rogue wtihout weapon finesse, a wizard who prepared sleep (or color spray) and a cleric who focused on wisdom it's possible.

[Curmudgeon]

8 Commoners = EL 5 (Overwhelming)
Not quite. That would be "Very difficult" (EL 1–4 higher than party level). You need to be at least EL 6 to squeak into the "Overpowering" category.

[sonofzeal]

Do note that the housecat/commoner exchange rate is rather overrated, and only really applies if you don't allow him his one free simple weapon or max hp at first level. I've posted extensive statistical analysis on this in the past, and if anyone's really dying to know then I could plug their initial assumptions in and see what comes out.



And, it depends on the party. Ignoring range, stealth, ambush, reach, initiative, and all that really messy stuff....

Cats one damage a hit, and your average 1st level party might have 36 hp total (Wizard, Rogue, Cleric, Fighter, average Con 14). AC scores might be... oh, 17-ish except for the Wizard probably, but whatever; remember that Full-plate is way out of budget at this level. I think it's reasonable to assume that your basic level 1 party can still kill a cat a turn each.

Since cats attack at +4/+4/+1, that means they hit on 13/13/16, so 35%/35%/20%. Expected value is 0.9 damage per cat per turn.

If you dumped 40 cats on top of the party, you'd have decent odds of taking them out in the first round. If you dumped 30 cats on them, they'd do about 27 damage, four would die, and the next turn they'd finish off the PCs. If you dumped 20 cats on them it'd take three turns but the cats would still win. With 15 cats, the PCs win... if the cats spread their attacks out perfectly and with direct proportion to hp so no hero dies until the end.

So, 15-20 cats, depending on tactics and initial assumptions.

[Starbuck_II]

1 if the kitty rolls well.
I've heard that story before:
Guy thought this was just going to be a speed bump encounter. Wizard cast enlarge person on Fighter. Fighter walks up + rolls and misses. The kitty kept rolling 20's and dropped the Fighter first round (full attack). At this point the rogue tries to run and kitty takes him down with a claw charge (crit again). Wizard cast expenditious retreat and moves. Cleric tried to stabilize rogue. Kitty drops him next round. Wizard shoots magic missile (2 damage) and moves away. Kitty chases him: eventually he gives up and kitty killed him.

[Soranar]

It's minmax. He's just ridiculous like that.

for those without the reference, minmax is a human fighter with 22 str at level 1, he also can't read and has various other ACF for all kinds of ridiculous feats (he was taught to handle a bastard sword by his father at age 3 for example)

[herrhauptmann]

for those without the reference, minmax is a human fighter with 22 str at level 1, he also can't read and has various other ACF for all kinds of ridiculous feats (he was taught to handle a bastard sword by his father at age 3 for example)

He's also got a movement of 60 at first level.
His idea of roleplaying consists of shouting to the heavens "DAMN YOU GOBLINS!" At the idea of the drow party members getting killed (all Drizzt clones)
Knows more than a dozen ways to kill a man with just his thumb, but can't even start a campfire or dress himself.
Has only recently bought a pair of pants.

Don't cats provoke an AOO when they attack, due to their lack of reach? Last game I ran, I forgot to include that for the party sorc's hawk familiar, consequently it saved their lives fighting zombies.

[Irreverent Fool]

I really don't see how its possible. A quintessential fighter-rogue-cleric-wizard party should be able to use positioning and things as simple as burning hands to handle many cats.

A housecat can kill a commoner 1-on-1 pretty easily by sneaking up on him when he doesn't have a weapon drawn, but PCs?

Now, make those cats into a SWARM, and then let them wipe out that level 1 party.

obnoxious
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[faceroll]

Don't cats provoke an AOO when they attack, due to their lack of reach?

Correct. Spike chain + combat reflexes is an awesome combo at any level, but level 1 especially. One chain fighter in the party with that build isn't particularly out there.

[Irreverent Fool]

Correct. Spike chain + combat reflexes is an awesome combo at any level, but level 1 especially. One chain fighter in the party with that build isn't particularly out there.

Incorrect. A cat provokes an AoO when it enters the enemy square, which it must do in order to attack because it has 0' of reach.

The fighter with a chain is unlikely to see the cat sneaking up on him, or even entering his space until he gets attacked.

obnoxious
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[ericgrau]

Don't cats provoke an AOO when they attack, due to their lack of reach? Last game I ran, I forgot to include that for the party sorc's hawk familiar, consequently it saved their lives fighting zombies.

Oh yeah that's right. So now the fighter is dropping a cat every round and you need to double my last number to 56. 16 cats is now a bit less plausible even if the other 3 party members are weaker than the fighter.

[Ravens_cry]

would you wager it would take to take down a level 1 party?


thinking it would be wonderfully ironic as a campaign to have a druid controlling housecats murdering peasants (they're an incursion into nature!) and have the party eventually be swarmed by them.
One.
Just one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5057178&postcount=24).

[faceroll]

Incorrect. A cat provokes an AoO when it enters the enemy square, which it must do in order to attack because it has 0' of reach.

Right. It has 0 reach, so it provokes. Sorry I left out the middle stuff. But the provocation of AoOs are a product of its 0' of reach.


The fighter with a chain is unlikely to see the cat sneaking up on him, or even entering his space until he gets attacked.

Wow, that +16 to hide is crazy. No one in the party is going to spot it. The rogue or barbarian might hear it coming.


obnoxious
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It truly is obnoxious. Why not put it in the space at the bottom where people cram all the crap they want to show off?

[krossbow]

What about if the cats are using guerrilla tactics on the party? AKA, coming in one at a time, in suicide sneak attack runs, so one will pop in from sneaking, slash someone before getting squished (sneak attack round, flat footed opponents, PLUS due to their initiative, getting another shot the beginning of the next round before exploding)


more or less wearing them down by constant, non-stop ambushes.

[Malificus]

What about if the cats are using guerrilla tactics on the party? AKA, coming in one at a time, in suicide sneak attack runs, so one will pop in from sneaking, slash someone before getting squished (sneak attack round, flat footed opponents, PLUS due to their initiative, getting another shot the beginning of the next round before exploding)


more or less wearing them down by constant, non-stop ambushes.

Or a unified, 4+ cats per person, sneak attack on the foolish party members.

[The Shadowmind]

What about applying the magebred template to them, or does that go against the spirit of the idea of taking down a party with housecats?

[ericgrau]

Or I bet you could fit 4 in each square so they could gang rush the PCs and thus provoke only 1 AoO per 4. Now I think we're back down to 35 cats, or maybe less depending on party makeup.

[faceroll]

If it's an ambush, I'm pretty sure you could do it with less than 10 cats, unless the PCs are exceptionally lucky.

[sonofzeal]

I think the best odds are if someone dumps a sack full of cats on the heroes, or otherwise start the encounter with cats EVERYWHERE. This removes the whole stealth advantage cats have, but also deals with the AoO situation. And, as my previous numbers showed, even if every party member can kill a cat a round (by no means guaranteed), 15-20 cats is enough to do it.

[Malificus]

I think the best odds are if someone dumps a sack full of cats on the heroes, or otherwise start the encounter with cats EVERYWHERE. This removes the whole stealth advantage cats have, but also deals with the AoO situation. And, as my previous numbers showed, even if every party member can kill a cat a round (by no means guaranteed), 15-20 cats is enough to do it.

DM: You walk into a dark house, make a spot check
Players: *succeed*
DM: You can make out some fur by the window
Players: *get light*
DM: You have awakened the cats!

[Deth Muncher]

DM: You walk into a dark house, make a spot check
Players: *succeed*
DM: You can make out some fur by the window
Players: *get light*
DM: You have awakened the cats!

Oh God, it's like the Witch, but...furrier!

[Radiun]

would you wager it would take to take down a level 1 party?


thinking it would be wonderfully ironic as a campaign to have a druid controlling housecats murdering peasants (they're an incursion into nature!) and have the party eventually be swarmed by them.

Awaken Animal on all cats
Make it a mass spell even, this is a high level druid with messed up priorities.

All cats are trained as level 1 rogues and therefore have +1d6 sneak attack.

Death comes in the night my friend, death comes in the night.

[Irreverent Fool]

A party armed with a few vials of acid can kill knock to 0 hp 4 cats per round if the creatures are coming en masse. An intersection or square has an AC of 5 iirc. They need not bother trying with direct hits.


Awaken Animal on all cats
Make it a mass spell even, this is a high level druid with messed up priorities.

All cats are trained as level 1 rogues and therefore have +1d6 sneak attack.

Death comes in the night my friend, death comes in the night.

Now that would work. Though the CR goes up significantly at that point.

obnoxious
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[faceroll]

A party armed with a few vials of acid can kill knock to 0 hp 4 cats per round if the creatures are coming en masse. An intersection or square has an AC of 5 iirc. They need not bother trying with direct hits.

obnoxious
sig

Ooh, good call. Fire would be better, since it burns the kitties, and they have to spend time putting the fire out. With lantern oil, they could make firewalls.

[sofawall]

Yeah, 28 of them:

<maths>

You know, that math only works if the cats attack one at a time? 9 cats, all attacking together, have a very high chance of defeating the fighter in two rounds.

[Malificus]

Ooh, good call. Fire would be better, since it burns the kitties, and they have to spend time putting the fire out. With lantern oil, they could make firewalls.

DIE, FLAMMABLE KITTENS! (http://keychain.patternspider.net/archive/koc0004.html)

(not again!)

[Gametime]

I can't decide whether D&D is the worst game ever for inspiring players to burn cats to death or the best game ever for making cats a credible ever threat to warrant death by fire.

[krossbow]

keep in mind, this isn't mr. psycho "housecat ate my baby" paranoid fighter. its highly unlikely he's going to come fully optimized for killing housecats.


while cleave might be reasonable, its unlikely he's going to be built specifically to take down a large group of very low cr critters.
This is supposed to suprise and confound an actual party.

[faceroll]

I can't decide whether D&D is the worst game ever for inspiring players to burn cats to death or the best game ever for making cats a credible ever threat to warrant death by fire.

Low level D&D makes fire a useful solution to virtually every problem.

[Irreverent Fool]

Ooh, good call. Fire would be better, since it burns the kitties, and they have to spend time putting the fire out. With lantern oil, they could make firewalls.

Actually, both acid vials and alchemist fire do 1 damage on a splash and alchemist fire only continues to burn a directly-hit target on a failed save (and the cats only fail a DC 15 50% of the time). Add this to the fact that a grenade-like weapon can deviate on a miss, and you're better off aiming at a square or intersection and its 5 AC.

Also, we're talking 1st-level characters here, so the cost-effectiveness of acid (10g) vs. alchemist fire (20g) can play a part.

Your mention of oil, however, is an excellent idea. From the SRD:

A pint of oil burns for 6 hours in a lantern. You can use a flask of oil as a splash weapon. Use the rules for alchemist’s fire, except that it takes a full round action to prepare a flask with a fuse. Once it is thrown, there is a 50% chance of the flask igniting successfully.

You can pour a pint of oil on the ground to cover an area 5 feet square, provided that the surface is smooth. If lit, the oil burns for 2 rounds and deals 1d3 points of fire damage to each creature in the area.

Four characters could effectively make a wall of fire and extend it outward by lobbing flasks of oil into squares adjacent to currently-burning squares.


Low level D&D makes fire a useful solution to virtually every problem.

Yes. Yes it does. :smallbiggrin:

obnoxious
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[DragonBaneDM]

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/6558/ilovethisthread.jpg

THEY ARE COMING!!!

[Irreverent Fool]

keep in mind, this isn't mr. psycho "housecat ate my baby" paranoid fighter. its highly unlikely he's going to come fully optimized for killing housecats.

while cleave might be reasonable, its unlikely he's going to be built specifically to take down a large group of very low cr critters.
This is supposed to suprise and confound an actual party.

I don't really see why one should consider 24+ housecats (an EL 6 encounter which *IS* 'overwhelming') against a level 1 party a reasonable scenario and carrying around oil and alchemists fire unreasonable. Any characters I play at levels 1-3 always carry at least a few pints of oil and some torches or other flammable objects.

Throwing the players off-balance is one thing. But if you need *that* many housecats, you may as well just give one housecat six levels of rogue.

Edit: An awakened housecat is now the next 'boss' the group I DM for (5 PCs, ECL 11) is going to face.

obnoxious
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[herrhauptmann]

I can't decide whether D&D is the worst game ever for inspiring players to burn cats to death or the best game ever for making cats a credible ever threat to warrant death by fire.

You realize you're talking about a game which spawned the tippyverse. Tippyverse: a world where a properly paranoid cautious wizard mindrapes his party and loved ones regularly to ensure they're not being controlled by an enemy intent on his destruction.

[Radiun]

[...]give one housecat six levels of rogue.[...]

Can he wear little boots, have a pimpin' hat, and weild a miniature fencing foil?

[Irreverent Fool]

You realize you're talking about a game which spawned the tippyverse. Tippyverse: a world where a properly paranoid cautious wizard mindrapes his party and loved ones regularly to ensure they're not being controlled by an enemy intent on his destruction.

That's one aspect of it, but the Tippyverse is really just a world where magic has been taken to its logical conclusion based on the RAW.

Magic traps can be made of any spell. Create food and create water are spells. Who needs agriculture now? Teleport circle can be made permanent and the Stronghold Builder's Guide has rules for constructing your own permanent gateways for intra- or trans-planar travel. There is no longer a need for shipping or to have huge armies spread over the entire area of your kingdom. Kingdoms as we know them cease to exist, etc, etc.

In the Tippyverse, I imagine that the average commoner is still terrified of housecats though.


Can he wear little boots, have a pimpin' hat, and weild a miniature fencing foil?
Only if you can get Antonio Banderas to do his voice for you.

obnoxious
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[ericgrau]

You know, that math only works if the cats attack one at a time? 9 cats, all attacking together, have a very high chance of defeating the fighter in two rounds.

Lemme check again:


Yeah, 28 of them:

Level 1 Fighter: 17 AC, 12 HP, 4 AB, 7.15 avg. damage (3.93 DPR)
Cat: 14 AC, 2 HP, 4 AB, 1.05 avg. damage (single attack 0.42 DPR, full attack 1.00 DPR)

Cat takes 13 rounds to drop a fighter. Fighter drops a cat every other round. So you need about 7 cats per fighter, or 28 cats per party. OTOH at level 1 a fighter or barbarian may be your strongest party member, so it may actually take significantly less. OTOH again a human would have another feat; if he planned for the fight he could even be a cleaver. Or a dwarf would have 1 more HP. Etc., etc.

EDIT: And a warrior is CR 1/2, not a commoner. A cat is CR 1/4 anyway, so by the CR system it takes 16 cats. If the other 3 party members are a rogue wtihout weapon finesse, a wizard who prepared sleep (or color spray) and a cleric who focused on wisdom it's possible.

7 cats are fighting a fighter. They deal 3, then 7 damage per round and drop him in 3 rounds. Fighter takes 14 rounds. Yeah something's not right. Okay 3 cats deal 1.2 then 3 dpr, take 5 rounds to drop fighter, fighter takes 6 rounds to drop them. Okay, that's more like it. Especially if you count an AoO for 1 in 4 cats or so. 3 cats per person then, so 12 cats to the party. If half the party drop 1 with an AoO then that's 13-14 cats.


Can he wear little boots, have a pimpin' hat, and weild a miniature fencing foil?
Only if he PrCs into duelist.

[Shalist]

1) This entire discussion is moot. Speaking is a free action in D 'n D, and every time you talk about physics in D 'n D, god kills another kitty...so no matter how many you throw at them, the adventuring party automatically wins. I admit that I'm uncertain of how much, if any, experience they'd get for killing an infinite number of kitties in such a manner though.

2) Just to clarify, your BBEG is: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ZhMaLEmTfm4/S0qvDQCmmmI/AAAAAAAAAIE/16d_rT71yVU/s400/crazy-cat-lady.jpg

3) (actual point) Don't forget things like flanking bonuses, 'aid another' (defensive and offensive), tripping, grappling (aka a 'dog' pile), etc.

[Malificus]

1) This entire discussion is moot. Speaking is a free action in D 'n D, and every time you talk about physics in D 'n D, god kills another kitty...so no matter how many you throw at them, the adventuring party automatically wins. I admit that I'm uncertain of how much, if any, experience they'd get for killing an infinite number of kitties in such a manner though.
No, that's catgirls. God kill kittens for a distinctly different reason.

[Thajocoth]

No, that's catgirls. God kill kittens for a distinctly different reason.

One that is not a free action.

[Ravens_cry]

One that is not a free action.
Is it even covered in the D&D rules?

[The Shadowmind]

One that is not a free action.
It is a full round action.

[Irreverent Fool]

Is it even covered in the D&D rules?
You're not going to make me say it, are you?
Book of Erotic Fantasy
obnoxious
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[Thajocoth]

Is it even covered in the D&D rules?

No idea, you'd have to check the BoEF.


It is a full round action.

6 seconds? It's gotta be at least a full ENCOUNTER on it's own...

[Malificus]

It is a full round action.
For preparation maybe, but that seems more like an extended action. A few minutes at least.

[The Shadowmind]

For preparation maybe, but that seems more like an extended action. A few minutes at least.

That how long it takes to resolve, it has a "casting time" of several minutes.

I'm not continuing this discussion.
----

Why not add the Magebred template to the housecats, a crazy cat lady in Eberron would certain have high quality cats.

[Malificus]

Why not add the Magebred template to the housecats, a crazy cat lady in Eberron would certain have high quality cats.

What we need here is an awakened wizard cat with a human familiar (to throw people off and carry the book).

[Thajocoth]

What we need here is an awakened wizard cat with a human familiar (to throw people off and carry the book).

Have the familiar be, specifically, a crazy old woman, and give them leadership, with a high leadership score. Then it looks like a simple crazy cat lady, but the truth is far more sinister.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

1. A tibbit rogue goes a long way.

[Lord Vukodlak]

would you wager it would take to take down a level 1 party?


thinking it would be wonderfully ironic as a campaign to have a druid controlling housecats murdering peasants (they're an incursion into nature!) and have the party eventually be swarmed by them.

This is why I made adulthood 2nd or 3rd level in my campaign setting.

[krossbow]

This is why I made adulthood 2nd or 3rd level in my campaign setting.



I usually just give bonus hp, since its more an issue of Level one beings have such drastically smaller hp (what other levels do you experience almost a 50% increase in hp).


But seriously though, a large enough swarm of cats trying to kill you in real life WOULDN'T be humerous; those things can be nasty, and about 6 of them swarming someone with the intent to kill (more or less impossible IRL though; there's 0 reason for cats to do so with their normal thought process) would rip them up pretty badly.

[faceroll]

6 seconds? It's gotta be at least a full ENCOUNTER on it's own...

That's what she said.


Why not add the Magebred template to the housecats, a crazy cat lady in Eberron would certain have high quality cats.

Magebred greatly increases the kitties' damage output without changing their CR. Interesting.

[Bhu]

What we need here is an awakened wizard cat with a human familiar (to throw people off and carry the book).

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4853968&postcount=264