[3.5] How would you build a paladin-like character?

[Petrocorus]

So, let's say you want to play a paladin, but you don't want to go through the underpowered Paladin class, at least, not for long. How would you build your character? What base classes would you begin with? What prestige classes would you take?

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

I'd just make a cleric and use feats to use a sword.

[Pluto]

I built a Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 1/Ordained Champion 3/Prestige Paladin 3/Knight of the Raven for a game next weekend.

I dunno how it's going to hold up, but I think it does the "paladin, but better" thing well (3 lost CL, but near-full BA, swift spells, ridiculous saves, conterspells and channeling).

...Or Crusader. That works too.

[KellKheraptis]

Take a Cheater of Mystra. Take Otherworldly. Dump Divine Disciple. Rework Cleric as Cloistered Cleric. Keep the 10 levels of Dweomercheater. Add Prestige Paladin 1. Add XXXX 4 (I prefer Divine Oracle for this, since it gets you evasion in heavy armor and uncanny dodge), own face :D

[CollinPhillips]

In what way is the paladin underpowered? It has full BAB, a limited ability to buff itself, divine grace rounds out saves, and with proficiency with all simple and martial weapons as well as all armor gives it a variety of combat options.

[Lysander]

Just play a warblade who prays a lot and lives ethically. They can still work for a church and call themselves a paladin.

[Keld Denar]

Cleric4/OrdainedChampion5 is pretty boss for the first 9 levels of life. NEARLY full BAB, Smitalicious, Turn Undead powering your class features on top of maybe Law Devotion, and you still cast spells ok. Past there, more cleric would be fine, or Knight of the Raven, or a couple levels of Prestige Pally to augement your spell list. I know you can pick up the spell Holy Sword from the Glory Domain, if thats imporant to you, and Glory is one of Herioneous' expanded domains.

Alternatively, a more arcane focused holy man might pursue the Sorcadin route. Pal2/Sorc4/Spellsword1/AbjChamp5/SacEx8 is the default build. 16/20 BAB, 18/20 Sorc casting, and more Cha synergy than you can shake a greatsword at. Try it, I'm sure you'll like it.

[Godskook]

Sorcadin. Comes into its own sometime in the middle of Abjurant Champion.

Paladin 2/Sorc 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist X

Gets Cha to all saves, can get it to damage and AC too, if you want it. With 16 BAB and 9th level casting @ L20, you should be good to go, after ~L10 or so.

[Petrocorus]

I built a Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 1/Ordained Champion 3/Prestige Paladin 3/Knight of the Raven for a game next weekend.


Prestige Paladin from Unearthed?
What book the Knight of the Raven come from?



In what way is the paladin underpowered? It has full BAB, a limited ability to buff itself, divine grace rounds out saves, and with proficiency with all simple and martial weapons as well as all armor gives it a variety of combat options.

Well, it seems that a lot of people here consider this is a low-tier 5 (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5256.0) class.
We must admit that the Paladin don't gain much after this 5th level.

[Pluto]

Cleric => Fist of Raziel (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20031012a) (BoED) and Paladin => Divine Crusader (CD) can work pretty well too.

And I've seen a few people toss around a build I really liked:

Paladin 4/Sanctified Mind 1 (LoM)/Warmind 5 (EPH)/Sanctified Mind 5/Psychic Weapons Master 5

With Serenity, it winds up with Smites, Powers, Saves and AoO's all tuned to Wisdom.

It also gets all the goodies from Sanctified Mind and Warmind, including Sweeping strikes and 10 levels of Psychic Warrior manifesting.

[Pluto]

Prestige Paladin from Unearthed?
Right

What book the Knight of the Raven come from?
Expedition to Castle Ravenloft.
It gives the GlorySun Domain, 9/10 CL, full BA, Turning, Smite Undead and it makes 5-ft steps provoke AoO's.

Fist of Raziel is less obscure and about as good.

Well, it seems that a lot of people here consider this is a low-tier 5 (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5256.0) class.

That doesn't mean it's not possible for a Paladin player to have fun.

In most games I've played (usually levels 1-7), the Paladin is pretty incredible:
Good saves, AC and HP make it nigh-indestructible (except v. Wizards).
BA and weapon damage are all that really matter at low levels and PA+lance+Spirited Charge lets the Paladin produce high damage until pretty far along in his career.
Social skills and high charisma give the Paladin the spotlight fairly often.

It's only high-optimization games played at high levels that really make the Pally look bad.
(Which I heard the one-shot we're running next week is going to be. Normally, I use a Paladin straight out of the can.)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Crusader. If you're hurting for saves, Pal2/Crusader x

[Petrocorus]

That doesn't mean it's not possible for a Paladin player to have fun. In most games I've played (usually levels 1-7), the Paladin was pretty incredible: good saves, AC and HP make it nigh-indestructible (unless you strictly fight Wizards, anyway). BA and weapon damage are significant at low levels and PA+lance+Spirited Charge lets the Paladin keep doing high damage. Social skills and high charisma give the Paladin the spotlight fairly often.

It's only high-optimization games played at high levels that really make the Pally look bad.
(Which I heard the one-shot we're running next week is going to be. Normally, I use a Paladin straight out of the can.)

Below lvl 6-7, i would not really bother indeed. At 1st level, the fighter and the pally are probably the most powerful classes. I'm afraid to play at high lvl with CoDzilla and wizard and feel totally useless.

[krossbow]

In what way is the paladin underpowered? It has full BAB, a limited ability to buff itself, divine grace rounds out saves, and with proficiency with all simple and martial weapons as well as all armor gives it a variety of combat options.


Once you pass the first few levels you basically stop getting anything.

[Petrocorus]

Sorcadin.
Paladin 2/Sorc 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist X

Gets Cha to all saves, can get it to damage and AC too, if you want it. With 16 BAB and 9th level casting @ L20, you should be good to go, after ~L10 or so.

That seems very good, but how do you manage for the armour?

[Ganurath]

Most of the Paladin character is roleplay. I suggest a Crusader with Stone Power starting off, coupled with the Martial Spirit stance to allow for some solid tanking. A fun trick to keep in mind is that while you need to move 10ft to charge, you enter your opponent's square to bull rush, so you can use Charging Minotaur on any foe that isn't adjacent if you need to beat tough ACs.

For the long term... It depends on what sort of "paladin" you want to play. If you want a tank, my limited resources point toward Agile Shield Fighter, Shield Charge, and Improved Trip. Your DM would have to be an idiot to allow those last two to give you infinite attacks, but if you can find a way to get a full attack on a charge, you have a solid shot at tearing most opponents apart in the opening attack.

1: Stone Power
Human: Improved Shield Bash
Flaw: Shield Focus (Heavy)
Flaw: Agile Shield Fighter
3: Shield Charge
6: Improved Trip (if your DM allows you to retrain Stone Power to Combat Expertise)

[Keld Denar]

Spellsword1 gives -10% ASF, which would allow you to wear a suit of Mithril Chain Shirt at not penalty. Otherwise you just go unarmored, nab Arcane Preperation, and use Greater Luminous Armor for your armor. Its Abjuration, so Abjurant Champion's bonus would apply to it. Also, you have Shield, which gives +9 AC as a swift aciton, so that should be up nearly every combat by mid levels.

Or you could do both. Armor is a nice place to pick up bonuses like Freedom or Soulfire cheaply, and nothing would stop you from having a Chain Shirt and G Luminous Armor on at the same time. You'd only get the best on that applies at the moment, but thats gives you a 2 layered defenese in case you get dispelled or something.

[Mystic Muse]

In what way is the paladin underpowered? It has full BAB, a limited ability to buff itself, divine grace rounds out saves, and with proficiency with all simple and martial weapons as well as all armor gives it a variety of combat options.

its complete lack of good features past level 5?

And before somebody says spellcasting, at level 5 the Paladin can Multiclass to Sorceror or wizard and in the case of wizard have 8th level spells by level 20 or in the case of Sorceror (the more likely one due to stat synergy) 7th level spells.

[HunterOfJello]

Crusader

or

Crusader/Warblade

or

Cleric

or

Crusader/Cleric/Ruby Knight Vindicator

[Kelb_Panthera]

There's elegance in simplicity. Cleric 4/fighter 1/Pr Paladin 2/divine caster PrC X. Most of the goodies of being a 5th level paladin in 2 levels, 3 if you count the fighter level.

[Devils_Advocate]

Just what is a "paladin", conceptually? Is it a holy warrior who wields divine power as a sword and shield, metaphorically speaking?

[JaronK]

Crusader 20 would get you there. Fighter 2/Crusader 18 might be even better.

Cloistered Cleric 7/PrC Paladin 2/Sacred Exorcist 10/Contemplative 1 would work quite well too, if you use DMM:Persist to keep Divine Power up. You could use Church Inquisitor levels in there too if you like. Knowledge Devotion and Holy Mount would be great... with Holy Mount, you get all the Paladin's class features with that build plus so much more (sometimes you use spells to simulate their spell likes, of course).

JaronK

[Mushroom Ninja]

Psychic Warrior 20 actually works pretty well if you call your psionic powers "Divine Inspiration".

[Indon]

So, let's say you want to play a paladin, but you don't want to go through the underpowered Paladin class, at least, not for long. How would you build your character? What base classes would you begin with? What prestige classes would you take?

Be a Clericzilla.

Being a more powerful meleer than a melee class is one of the big things the C-zilla does.

[Gnaeus]

Below lvl 6-7, i would not really bother indeed. At 1st level, the fighter and the pally are probably the most powerful classes. I'm afraid to play at high lvl with CoDzilla and wizard and feel totally useless.

Actually, at first level Druid, Crusader and Warblade are probably most powerful. The druid's riding dog is likely to beat a first level paladin.

[Flickerdart]

You can use Initiate of Milil and the Harmonious Knight sub levels to qualify for Sublime Chord using Suel Arcanamach casting, and then go Abjurant Champion. You just barely get 9th level spells and your BAB suffers a little bit, but you'll be a competent gish.

[AslanCross]

Crusader, definitely. If I were to multiclass with Paladin, I'd take OneWinged4ngel's paladin.

[Petrocorus]

I built a Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 1/Ordained Champion 3/Prestige Paladin 3/Knight of the Raven for a game next weekend.


I have read the classes' descriptions, and i feel there is a problem.
You cannot qualify for Church Inquisitor before lvl 5 (skill required), Ordained Champion lvl 4 (skill) and Prestige Paladin lvl 4 (BAB). I haven't access to Knight of the Raven, can you qualify for it after only 3 lvl of Cleric?


Sorcadin.
Paladin 2/Sorc 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist X


Is it possible to use the "Versatile Spellcaster" feat to qualify earlier as Spellsword with Pal 4/ Sor 1?



Cloistered Cleric 7/PrC Paladin 2/Sacred Exorcist 10/Contemplative 1 would work quite well too, if you use DMM:Persist to keep Divine Power up. You could use Church Inquisitor levels in there too if you like. Knowledge Devotion and Holy Mount

What is DMM: persist? Knowledge devotion is a spell?

Can you remind me where i can find the Cloistered Cleric ACF?


Actually, at first level Druid, Crusader and Warblade are probably most powerful. The druid's riding dog is likely to beat a first level paladin.

I must confess i've never paid attention to the riding dog. And i really got to get ToB apparently.

Has anyone tried to build something with the Favoured Soul class?

[Optimystik]

What is DMM: persist? Knowledge devotion is a spell?

DMM stands for Divine Metamagic, a feat in Complete Divine that lets you spend turning attempts to fuel metamagic instead of raising the spell level or casting time (for prepared and spontaneous casters respectively). DMM is especially useful if your turning is not very powerful (e.g. you have levels in a PrC that does not advance turning, e.g. Sacred Fist.)

Knowledge Devotion is a feat from Complete Champion. It lets you use a Knowledge check against a certain type of creature to gain an insight bonus on attack and damage vs. that creature. (For example, Know [Religion] gives you a bonus vs. Undead.) The higher the check, the bigger the bonus, thus this move synergizes extremely well with Cloistered Cleric. This is especially useful because insight bonuses are hard to come by.


Can you remind me where i can find the Cloistered Cleric ACF?

Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric)

[Amphetryon]

Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Fist of Raziel 5 does most of what I would want a Paladin to do, better than a Paladin does. DMM Persist through Nightsticks and better spellcasting. Death Domain and Avenging Strike are what I might consider for non-obvious feats.

[Prime32]

Just what is a "paladin", conceptually? Is it a holy warrior who wields divine power as a sword and shield, metaphorically speaking?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paladin

[Telonius]

For a higher-powered game, Crusader.

For a mid-powered game, take a Knight and have him pray to his deity twice a day.

For a low-powered game, Paladin/Cleric or Paladin/Fighter.

[Grumman]

I've got two concepts I like, the halfling knight, using Pal 5 followed by all the full B.A.B., special mount buffing PrCs like Beastmaster, Halfling Outrider and Ashworm Dragoon; and the warforged Crusader / Hellreaver That Will Not Stop.

[Godskook]

Below lvl 6-7, i would not really bother indeed. At 1st level, the fighter and the pally are probably the most powerful classes. I'm afraid to play at high lvl with CoDzilla and wizard and feel totally useless.

You forgot the barbarian, who sports the only d12 HD I know of, full BAB, and better skill points than a fighter or a paladin, with a better list than the fighter. Skipping Druid/Cleric/Crusader/Warblade, there's also the Swordsage, who sports a 20% miss chance at L1, something most other classes can't get that early reliably. Let's also not forget the Binder, Ranger, or Factotum(who, even if you don't like most of the stats, lets face it, the paladin and the fighter aren't going to play trapmonkey).


That seems very good, but how do you manage for the armour?

Armor? What armor? I don't need no stinking armor.

Seriously though, I do one of the following:
-Get DM approval for Mage Armor to work, cause RAI seems to point that it should, and some DMs houserule it does by accident by placing Mage Armor into Abjuration where people would expect it to be.
-Get a monk's belt and grab Ascetic Mage. I now get Cha to AC, including against touch attacks and flatfooted. In Gestalt, this option is taken, but a Swordsage dip is used instead of the belt. Due to the wording, this also works with a swordsage dip, but you usually can't afford one outside of gestalt.
-And as Keld Denar mentioned, Luminous Armor is a single feat away. I'll need to remember this.


Is it possible to use the "Versatile Spellcaster" feat to qualify earlier as Spellsword with Pal 4/ Sor 1?

That would be 'later', not earlier. The whole point of a gish is to get L9 casting, and paladin 4 would give that up for any base class option you'd try. And, yes, the main problem with qualifying for Spellsword is the BAB, but spellsword is the lowest ECL-available prestige class that advances both BAB and casting at L1 of its progression. You're really only sitting around for that level, since Abjurant Champion is immediately available next level.

[Longcat]

Personally, I would choose Cleric4/Ordained Champion5/Crusader1/Ruby Knight Vindicator10, in that order. You get access to 8th level spells, a +19 BAB, and 8th level maneuvers. You're playable at all levels, from 1-20.

[Petrocorus]

-And as Keld Denar mentioned, Luminous Armor is a single feat away. I'll need to remember this.


What book can i find this in?



That would be 'later', not earlier. The whole point of a gish is to get L9 casting, and paladin 4 would give that up for any base class option you'd try. And, yes, the main problem with qualifying for Spellsword is the BAB, but spellsword is the lowest ECL-available prestige class that advances both BAB and casting at L1 of its progression. You're really only sitting around for that level, since Abjurant Champion is immediately available next level.

So, Pal 2 / Sorc 4 without Versatile is better than Pal 4 / Sor 1 with it (or Pal 3 Sor 2)?

[lsfreak]

So, Pal 2 / Sorc 4 without Versatile is better than Pal 4 / Sor 1 with it (or Pal 3 Sor 2)?

The #1 rule of spellcasting is to never lose a spell level. You're losing two by going the two levels in paladin, you just plain can't afford to lose more. Spell slots are that good.

For armor:
- Spellsword lets you drop the spell failure by 10%
- The twilight enchantment (MIC, BoED, and PHB2 all have it) drops it another 10%
- Mithril drops it 10%

Those combined make it easy to wear a breastplate. With a little more work, you can wear full plate without any spell failure (thistledown padding, RotW), though personally I don't think the extra you have to spend to make full plate mithril is worth it.

My preference for a paladin build is one based on Cleric/Ordained Champion, though. At least one or two have already been posted. Between DMM:Persist, Knowledge Devotion, Holy Warrior, and Knowledge Devotion, you're nice, large bonuses to +atk and +dmg.

EDIT: Luminous Armor is Book of Exalted Deeds. A lot of people like to ban it as 'Book of Exalted Cheese,' but most of the stuff in there is actually on the low-power side (emphasis on most, there's a few things that are ridiculous).

[Amphetryon]

You forgot the barbarian, who sports the only d12 HD I know of, full BAB, and better skill points than a fighter or a paladin, with a better list than the fighter. Skipping Druid/Cleric/Crusader/Warblade, there's also the Swordsage, who sports a 20% miss chance at L1, something most other classes can't get that early reliably.
The Warblade also has a d12 HD, full BAB, and better skill points off a better list, along with built-in INT synergy for even more skill points. It also gets class features that are useful more than once a day at low levels without an additional feat.

[Godskook]

What book can i find this in?

BoED for the spell(s), and I have no idea where Arcane Preperation is. I'd guess a completes book, probably mage or arcane.


So, Pal 2 / Sorc 4 without Versatile is better than Pal 4 / Sor 1 with it (or Pal 3 Sor 2)?

Paladin 3 gives you 1 BAB, 1 to all saves, and disease immunity. While BAB is nice, the build already gets 16, so anymore is only gravy. Saves, again, are nice, but vastly unimportant overall since we've already got a +7 or so on all saves, at second level. Get a cleric if you're worried about disease immunity. What yo give up for these mild benefits is L9 spells. So no time stop or shapechange. Pal 3 is totally not worth it.

Pal 4 gives you incredibly less. 1 BAB, 1 fort, and turn undead. The build already gets turning, so that's not helping the build all that much.

So yes, Pal 2/Sorc 4 > Pal 3+ for sorcadin builds.


The Warblade also has a d12 HD, full BAB, and better skill points off a better list, along with built-in INT synergy for even more skill points. It also gets class features that are useful more than once a day at low levels without an additional feat.

I don't think you understood what I was saying. I was saying that the Barbarian was strictly better than the Paladin or Fighter in low-level play. No comparison was made between the Barbarian and the Warblade. I then listed some other classes that are also better than the Paladin or Fighter at low-level play. The fact that I forgot that the Warblade has a d12 is a little embarrassing though.

(And yes, I agree, the Warblade is better than the Barbarian at low-levels, but that's neither here nor there.)

[Amphetryon]

I don't think you understood what I was saying. I was saying that the Barbarian was strictly better than the Paladin or Fighter in low-level play. No comparison was made between the Barbarian and the Warblade. I then listed some other classes that are also better than the Paladin or Fighter at low-level play. The fact that I forgot that the Warblade has a d12 is a little embarrassing though.

(And yes, I agree, the Warblade is better than the Barbarian at low-levels, but that's neither here nor there.)
I understood what you were saying; you said the Barbarian was better because it had a d12 HD (as does the Warblade), more skill points from a better list (as does the Warblade), and better class features than Fighter or Paladin (as does the... you get the idea). You also indicated you had forgotten the Warblade's HD, since you expressly mentioned them and yet expressly stated just before that mention that only the Barbarian gets a d12. My point was that you specifically mentioned Warblade and yet espoused the virtues of a generally weaker choice - Barbarian - by listing those features the Warblade and Barbarian have in common while neglecting the HD and better stat synergy and abilities. I apologize if that was unclear enough that you believed I could not comprehend your post originally.

[Godskook]

I understood what you were saying; you said the Barbarian was better because it had a d12 HD (as does the Warblade), more skill points from a better list (as does the Warblade), and better class features than Fighter or Paladin (as does the... you get the idea). You also indicated you had forgotten the Warblade's HD, since you expressly mentioned them and yet expressly stated just before that mention that only the Barbarian gets a d12. My point was that you specifically mentioned Warblade and yet espoused the virtues of a generally weaker choice - Barbarian - by listing those features the Warblade and Barbarian have in common while neglecting the HD and better stat synergy and abilities. I apologize if that was unclear enough that you believed I could not comprehend your post originally.

Ok, maybe I'm not understanding what your point is. I skipped the Warblade for exactly two reasons, in this order:
1.It was already mentioned.(Also why I said "skipping" to several other really good base classes)
2.It isn't core, and both the Paladin/Fighter and the Barbarian are all core, and so the comparison in power is inherently more applicable.(Why I detailed the Barbarian.)

[Yukitsu]

Personally, I like playing paladins as written. Slap on a few divine feats, and a domain feat from complete champion and you're going to do OK. Free quicken on all paladin spells all the time can help out a touch as well.

What's really hard is getting a tiny bit of bardic music in there, and getting snow flake wardance, mixed with divine smite and boots of battle dancing. Charisma ahoy!

[lsfreak]

Personally, I like playing paladins as written. Slap on a few divine feats, and a domain feat from complete champion and you're going to do OK. Free quicken on all paladin spells all the time can help out a touch as well.

What's really hard is getting a tiny bit of bardic music in there, and getting snow flake wardance, mixed with divine smite and boots of battle dancing. Charisma ahoy!

I agree that paladins are decent if you've got the books (CC and SpC being the main ones) and the know-how to back them up. The daily limits on smite tend to make them a bit limited and nova-y for my taste, though.

[Yukitsu]

I agree that paladins are decent if you've got the books (CC and SpC being the main ones) and the know-how to back them up. The daily limits on smite tend to make them a bit limited and nova-y for my taste, though.

Definitely agree. I try to take at least one feat that'll give me more smites based on charisma, which those guys need to pump as much as is humanly possible. Divine smite is a nice one since it works on full round attacks, but avenging strike can work as a nice smite suppliment if you're adventuring in hell or something.

I actually find running out of turn attempts a much bigger issue, since my DM doesn't allow rods of infinite hilarity. Or whatever those extra turning rods are called.

[Tinydwarfman]

Hellreaver from Fiendish Codex II, and Ordained Champion from Complete Champion. Both awesome PrCs that make you a paladin +

[Noodles2375]

The ardent might work really well here also. You can pick your mantles to line up with paladin/deity ethics and do something like:

Ranger1/Ardent 4/Slayer 10/ Ardent 5-9

Gives you BAB +17, solid saves, good weapon and armor proficiencies 9th level powers, and a sweet set of class features. I am not 100% sure how adding additional mantles works with slayer advancement as I don't have CPsi near me, but if you chose your low level mantles wisely it might not even matter.

The psychic warrior is so customizable that you could probably make a straight build with him.

[lsfreak]

I actually find running out of turn attempts a much bigger issue, since my DM doesn't allow rods of infinite hilarity. Or whatever those extra turning rods are called.

Yea, I could see that being problematic. I myself have only run a straight paladin as an NPC, so I've not run into issues. But how does this sound:

Focus on a single Devotion (Law or Travel, depending on whether paladin multiclassing and barbarian alignment are both enforced). At mid-ish levels, I'd think you have 3(base) +4(cha) +4(nightstick) turns, which is enough to power one of those feats for the 'standard' 4-encounter day.

If you plan on having more than the one devotion feat, then a one-level dip of Cloistered Cleric. As one of the domains, pick something that grants an extra type of Turn/Rebuke, like Fire. You now doubled your turning pool, got yourself two of your Devotion feats, and made all Knowledge skills available, for the cost of a level and a couple hit points. Really, you should probably do this anywho for a non-cleric paladin, since it'll power Knowledge Devotion for you.

[JaronK]

What is DMM: persist?

It means taking the feats Extend Spell, Persistant Spell, and Divine Metamagic: Persistant Spell. The combination lets you spend 7 turning attempts to have a personal or emanation spell last all day. Doing this with Divine Power effectively gives you +6 Strength and full BAB. Note that since you'd have it up all the time, you could qualify for PrC Paladin as soon as you had the ability to cast Divine Power (level 7). To get more spells persisted, Extend them after you persist them so they last 48 hours. Then you only have to cast each endless spell once every other day. Also consider the Serenity feat, which makes all Paladin abilities key of Wisdom instead of Charisma. Now your turn attempt numbers key off Wisdom, so you can probably have more.


Knowledge devotion is a spell?

It's a feat that gives you bonuses to hit and damage based on knowledge checks about the target, up to +5, and stacks with everything. Combined with Divine Power you'll be a melee powerhouse if you want.


Can you remind me where i can find the Cloistered Cleric ACF?

Unearthed Arcana or SRD.

As for Favored Soul, the build I did above would work with Favored Soul as long as you took a Sacred Exorcist level before PrC Paladin.

JaronK

[Ravens_cry]

There's a variant cleric in the Pathfinder campaign setting that loses domains, but gets use of their gods weapon, full BAB, heavy armour (PF clerics just get medium), and full spells. It's like Divine Power, but all the time and Divine Power is like. . woah.
Or you can play the Pathfinder Paladin. Less MAD, smite works on ranged as well and does not stop till you do. The mercies also seem a nice way to remove status effects.
Make that BBEG feel the wrath of <insert diety of choice here>!

[Yukitsu]

Yea, I could see that being problematic. I myself have only run a straight paladin as an NPC, so I've not run into issues. But how does this sound:

Focus on a single Devotion (Law or Travel, depending on whether paladin multiclassing and barbarian alignment are both enforced). At mid-ish levels, I'd think you have 3(base) +4(cha) +4(nightstick) turns, which is enough to power one of those feats for the 'standard' 4-encounter day.

If you plan on having more than the one devotion feat, then a one-level dip of Cloistered Cleric. As one of the domains, pick something that grants an extra type of Turn/Rebuke, like Fire. You now doubled your turning pool, got yourself two of your Devotion feats, and made all Knowledge skills available, for the cost of a level and a couple hit points. Really, you should probably do this anywho for a non-cleric paladin, since it'll power Knowledge Devotion for you.

IIRC, you can't use the alternative turn types for divine feats. I'm pretty sure that's what I keep hearing when people bring it up for divine metamagic at any rate.

[Eldariel]

IIRC, you can't use the alternative turn types for divine feats. I'm pretty sure that's what I keep hearing when people bring it up for divine metamagic at any rate.

Some feats are worded so they require Turning while others specifically require Turn Undead. DMM requires Turn Undead.

[Godskook]

Some feats are worded so they require Turning while others specifically require Turn Undead. DMM requires Turn Undead.

Which ones only require turning?

[lsfreak]

Which ones only require turning?

I think if you go extremely strict RAW, the devotion feats can use any turn/rebuke.


If you have the ability to turn or rebuke undead, you gain one additional daily use of this feat for each two daily turn or rebuke uses you expend.
It never actually specifies using turn/rebuke undead to power them, but you can only power them with turns if you have the turn/rebuke undead. As to whether that would fly in a real game...

[Eldariel]

Which ones only require turning?

E.g. Divine Spell Power burns any Turn/Rebuke attempts. It still requires the ability to Turn/Rebuke Undead to acquire, but you can use any Turning on the feat itself.

[Volkov]

So, let's say you want to play a paladin, but you don't want to go through the underpowered Paladin class, at least, not for long. How would you build your character? What base classes would you begin with? What prestige classes would you take?

Just a cleric to a lawful good deity. It works better.

[Soranar]

Paladin (just taking paladin levels) can be decent with the right ACFs (alternate class features) and substitution levels

my 3 favourite ones are as follow

half-orc paladin (Race of Destiny) 2nd level substition (obviously better for a Desert half-orc as you don't lose Cha)

d12 hitpoints , lose smite evil gain righteous fury (since it works against anything it's much better than smite evil) and it uses your Cha for something else than to-hit

hunting paladin (from unearthed arcana)

give up lay on hands, turn undead and remove disease (most are completely useless with a cleric in the group) for favored enemies like a ranger (limited choices but they're all good picks anyway)

holy warrior (from Complete Champion)

give up spellcasting (and the need for Wisdom) for 4 bonus feats at level 4,8,11,14

With all of these you lose your MAD and you gain damage (favored enemies + bonus feats) and hitpoints (although you're stuck playing a desert half-orc)

[Pluto]

I have read the classes' descriptions, and i feel there is a problem.
You cannot qualify for Church Inquisitor before lvl 5 (skill required),
:smallconfused:
Are you looking at the Complete Divine version?
Clerics can put 4 ranks in all three of those skills from level 1...

[Keld Denar]

turn undead...(most are completely useless with a cleric in the group)

Wow...no. Turn Undead is actually a Paladin's most powerful class feature. Its not for actually turning undead though. With it, you can power Divine and Devotion feats that let you bring your Cha score into play in an offensive way. Definitely worth it, and you should NEVER drop TU unless you are gonna get it right back from another sources like Sacred Exorcist or Knight of the Raven.

[Soranar]

Wow...no. Turn Undead is actually a Paladin's most powerful class feature. Its not for actually turning undead though. With it, you can power Divine and Devotion feats that let you bring your Cha score into play in an offensive way. Definitely worth it, and you should NEVER drop TU unless you are gonna get it right back from another sources like Sacred Exorcist or Knight of the Raven.

depends if you play with devotion feats or not (guess which in my case)

divine power is just terrible since they nerfed it (cha bonus to damage for 1 turn, geez thats terrible)

[Eldariel]

divine power is just terrible since they nerfed it (cha bonus to damage for 1 turn, geez thats terrible)

What the hell? Assuming you're talking about Divine Might, with Paladin's Charisma, it's incredible. It's a free action to activate, lasts whole round (buffing your entire full attack) and only costs one use of Turn Undead. You have tons of those; it's like Smite except 100% less sucky.

Hell, come teens and you might just have enough Turns to use it on every combat round of a day. Are you trying to say you don't want Cha to damage or something?

[Keld Denar]

I'm assuming you are talking about Divine Might? While not as good as Law Devotion, its still decent. You don't squander it on single attacks, but instead use it on turns where you'll be making full attacks. Its also decent if you can increase your number of attacks/round via natural attacks or such.

[Townopolis]

If your DM lets you rock it, this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19528002/The_Rebalanced_Paladin!_%28Thread_2%29) is my recommendation.

The author may not have made himself many friends when he wandered into these boards, but it's a tasty rework of the paladin class into something that doesn't suck as much at higher levels.

[Edit] Reviewing my link. I realize that homebrew has been... truncated. Looking for a complete version... here (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/972190/Rebalanced%20Compendium.pdf) (scroll down to the appropriate entry).

[lsfreak]

[Edit] Reviewing my link. I realize that homebrew has been... truncated. Looking for a complete version.

Un-truncated version found in the PDF on this thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2096.0).

Fax's paladin is a really good homebrew of one as well, though changes the mechanics enough that I know a number of people who prefer OneWinged4ngel's.

[Petrocorus]

It means taking the feats Extend Spell, Persistant Spell, and Divine Metamagic: Persistant Spell. The combination lets you spend 7 turning attempts to have a personal or emanation spell last all day.

Is it not 6 attemps?



Doing this with Divine Power effectively gives you +6 Strength and full BAB. Note that since you'd have it up all the time, you could qualify for PrC Paladin as soon as you had the ability to cast Divine Power (level 7).

I was wondering how i could qualify after 7 lvl. I look at all the advices yesterday and since i didn't understood this, i was pondering this build:
Cloistered Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 3/Prestige Paladin 3/Sacred Exorcist 10/Contemplative 1
A combo between your advice and another one. I gain a bonus domain and some other stuff but i lose 1 caster level.

BTW, is it RAW to use a spell to meet a BAB requirement?



To get more spells persisted, Extend them after you persist them so they last 48 hours. Then you only have to cast each endless spell once every other day.

Well, i saw that everybody doesn't agree on the Q&A D&D 3.5 (by RAW) thread. Some say that the 24 h replace the extended duration.



Also consider the Serenity feat, which makes all Paladin abilities key of Wisdom instead of Charisma. Now your turn attempt numbers key off Wisdom, so you can probably have more.

Another feat that i don't know. You know, the last time i played DnD, the 3.0 was all new.



It's a feat that gives you bonuses to hit and damage based on knowledge checks about the target, up to +5, and stacks with everything. Combined with Divine Power you'll be a melee powerhouse if you want.

A cloisterd cleric that become a melee powerhouse. I fear the DM's feeling on this. I already don't really know how he may react to the idea of a cloistered cleric worshipping a god like Heironeous. I don't know if he will accept Sean Reynolds' recommendation (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/we/greyhawkdeities.html) for the Domains. The planning domain could be useful i think.



As for Favored Soul, the build I did above would work with Favored Soul as long as you took a Sacred Exorcist level before PrC Paladin.

I ask the question because i see the favoured soul as a new kind of pally. I don't really have reasons for this.

[Petrocorus]

I don't think i would be able to use homebrew material.

[DSCrankshaw]

I don't think anyone has said it directly, but 3.5e had two "improved paladin" classes: the Crusader from Tome of Battle, and the Knight from PHB2.

The Crusader focuses on using maneuvers and stances and all the other ToB stuff--if you like those mechanics, this is the class for you, but realize that you will be adding new mechanics, and your DM may not want to do so. The knight's more standard mechanics--he's focused on getting the enemy to attack him rather than his allies, and has mechanical ways to do that.

[Yorrin]

I'm relatively new to this whole "optimizing paladins" thing- can someone point me to the location of Devotion feats?

[Pluto]

I'm relatively new to this whole "optimizing paladins" thing- can someone point me to the location of Devotion feats?
Sure. :smallsmile:

They're in Complete Champion.

[Eldariel]

I'm assuming you are talking about Divine Might? While not as good as Law Devotion, its still decent. You don't squander it on single attacks, but instead use it on turns where you'll be making full attacks. Its also decent if you can increase your number of attacks/round via natural attacks or such.

What is this..."single attack" you speak of? My Paladins only know terms "Mounted Charge" and "Full Attack". Also, I actually sorta prefer Divine Might to Law Devotion; To Hit gets buffed by Magic, but damage less so. And your swift actions tend to be occupied casting Battle Blessing-spells anyway.s

[Godskook]

What is this..."single attack" you speak of? My Paladins only know terms "Mounted Charge" and "Full Attack". Also, I actually sorta prefer Divine Might to Law Devotion; To Hit gets buffed by Magic, but damage less so. And your swift actions tend to be occupied casting Battle Blessing-spells anyway.s

Law Devotion lasts a full minute, which is longer than combats typically take.

[Eldariel]

Law Devotion lasts a full minute, which is longer than combats typically take.

Activating it takes a Swift Action tho; Divine Might is a free action. I'm not convinced Law Devotion is sufficiently better than your spells to warrant picking the feat and using your Swift Action on it.

[Petrocorus]

What do you think of the 'Holy Warrior' feat?

[Eldariel]

What do you think of the 'Holy Warrior' feat?

Much, much better for Cleric. Still sorta useful for Pally, but probably not worth a feat anymore.

[Petrocorus]

Much, much better for Cleric. Still sorta useful for Pally, but probably not worth a feat anymore.

I was thinking to the case of cleric / Pr Paladin.

[Coidzor]

Do clerics continue to gain domain spells in prestige classes? Can't remember if that's just part of the existing spellcasting or more of a class feature of its own thing.

As long as you're not casting your 7th-to-9th-level war domain spell, it's constantly on and better for your non-sorcadin-style casting due to not having to beef up charisma to compete.

[LichPrinceAlim]

Here's my thought:

Crusader 6/Divine Crusader 8/Prestige Paladin 1/Contemplative 1/Sacred Exorsist 4

Just pick your god and there you go. A Paladin with Full Casting, two domains, and Martial Maneuvers (note: use Sacred Exorcist on Crusader)

[Godskook]

(note: use Sacred Exorcist on Crusader)

That can't work, despite the wording in the table. The text clarifies it for you.

[LichPrinceAlim]

That can't work, despite the wording in the table. The text clarifies it for you.

I'm sorry. Currently AFB, but it says,



+1 to Class


therefore, I add "levels" in crusader with sacred exorcist

[Godskook]

I'm sorry. Currently AFB, but it says,

therefore, I add "levels" in crusader with sacred exorcist

And the text clarifies that "+1 class" means +1 to existing spellcasting class, for the purpose of spells known, caster level, and spells per day. The Crusader has nothing of the sort, and as such, can't be 'advanced' with sacred exorcist. Only 2 classes I know about use a wording that works with any class. One's legacy champion, and the other is....Uncanny Trickster?(I'm not sure).

[LichPrinceAlim]

And the text clarifies that "+1 class" means +1 to existing spellcasting class, for the purpose of spells known, caster level, and spells per day. The Crusader has nothing of the sort, and as such, can't be 'advanced' with sacred exorcist. Only 2 classes I know about use a wording that works with any class. One's legacy champion, and the other is....Uncanny Trickster?(I'm not sure).

fine. Scrap SE for any martial PrC. Problem Solved