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faceroll
2010-03-08, 05:08 AM
I saw mention of this 5 level prc in the Iron Chef thread, and I looked it up. It's from Lords of Darkness, and besides giving full casting, it gives you a loyal flying monster mount that has HD equal to zhentarin class level +charisma modifier +1.

Sooooo, what sort of mounts would be good? Any flying mounts with under 20 HD and 9th level spells or awesome abilities?

AslanCross
2010-03-08, 08:51 AM
I think the Yrthak is pretty awesome. It has 120 ft. Blindsight, and a pretty nifty sonic ranged touch attack. It's also quite intelligent at 7 Int.

The golden protector is pretty good too, though I think its willingness to help you if you're a Zhentarim Skymage would be shaky.

The androsphinx has cleric casting. It's not amazing, only lv 5, but I think it's still a pretty good choice.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-03-08, 10:50 AM
I recall seeing a build once over on BG that maxed out that ability and used a big shadow dragon. Unfortunately, I can't access the thread from where I am now, but you might be able to find it.

herrhauptmann
2010-03-08, 11:51 AM
There's a few PrC's like this in FR.
Stormlord, from Champion of Valor. Get free armor as you level
Then both Waterdeep and Aglarond also have aerial mounted PrCs.

I'm thinking either a nightmare, or that variant black unicorn would be powerful. Though personally I'd prefer to take a mount from a 'neutral' species, rather than an evil one which might betray me if the DM is bored.

FishAreWet
2010-03-08, 12:03 PM
It's a ridiculously broken class. For one, you can get higher then 20HD if you try.

Also, the ONLY limitation is HD. Meaning you can get a Solar. Or a Paragon Solar. Or a Chronotyryn, which has two full round actions. AND you can Share Spells with it!

It is one of the most broken PrCs in print.

Akal Saris
2010-03-08, 12:25 PM
I personally love the Zhentarim Skymage - I plan on making a handbook for it when I get the time. It can be broken with crud like the Chronotrymm, but also it's a good way to play a race that you normally can't really use, like an Ogre Mage or a Succubus.

One big consideration is that small-sized casters (or even tiny!) are probably best for this if you want to ride your mount. Lots of good flying medium creatures out there.

Simple answer to the question: in core, the planatar is the best caster for its HD around. Out of core the Arcanaloth and Gray Linnorn (both MMII) are probably the most broken spellcasters available from the Monster Manuals, and you can get them at 12 and 13 HD respectively.

I'm sure Fiend Folio has a dozen more broken choices, not to mention weird FR splatbook creatures like the sharn and whatnot.

Core options: (and skipping very poor options)
Dragons - if you're a small-sized race like a gnome, then the very young dragons might be worthwhile.
4 HD - Giant Eagle. Not many choices at this HD. Large.
4 HD - Gargoyle. Great melee tank/damage at this HD. Large.
5 HD - Ogre Mage. Ride on the shoulders of your ogre friend! With regeneration, SR, Change Shape, and some spell-likes, he's an all-around good option at this HD. Large.
6 HD - Cloaker. It's large, strong, flies well, and has a ton of crowd control abilities (can knock prone and nauseate, or hold monster, or panic opponents, or grapple). Plus it will look like you're flying with a huge cloak.
6 HD - Succubus. Much like Nale in OOTS, you can have a kinky minion very easily. Medium
6 HD - Manticore. One of the few ranged attackers you can get early on. Large
6 HD - Nightmare. One of the classics for a reason. Awesome flying, good defenses, and lots of mobility. Large.
7 HD - Griffon. Just a typical bruiser. Large.
7 HD - Wyvern. A large dragon at this HD is nice; strong poison, grab attack, and good feats.
10 HD - Vrock. Telekinesis, greater teleport, and mirror image at will, and it's a monster in melee. Large.
12 HD - Yrthak. Another ranged attacker, and blindsight is nifty.
12 HD - Astral Deva. Unlikely to work with you since it's good-aligned, but has a positively amazing list of spell-likes, Change Shape, and stunning attacks.
14 HD - Nalfenshee. A tank. Huge.
14 HD - Planatar. Unlikely to work with you since it's good-aligned, but absolutely crazy - casts as a 17 cleric, with great spell-likes to boot.
15 HD - Cornugon. An amazing melee monster with a fear aura, automatic stunning attacks, a huge AC, DR, regen, SR 28, and good feats. Awesome. Huge.
18 HD - Pit Fiend. Like the Cornugon, but even better. Huge.
20 HD - Balor! Generally the ultimate goal, but very difficult to achieve. Huge.
22 HD -Solar! Unlikely to work with you since it's good-aligned, but Solars are insanely powerful if you can get one.

Any HD: Half-Fiend, Half-Dragon, Vampire (all grant wings). Technically you could have a vampiric half-fiend ogre at 3HD, but that's venturing into dangerous territory.

Non-core: (Monster Manuals only, skipping poor options)
4 HD - Desmodu Guard/Hunting Bat (MMII). Both have blindsight - the hunting bat has trip and a great attack bonus, the guard has wounding, spring attack, and better HP/Dmg. Large.
4 HD - Advespa (MMII). A minor devil, standard traits for them. Large.
5 HD - Grell (MM II). OMG, Grell terrify me. Just look at them. The big draw here is 10 attacks/round with it tentacles, each with a chance to paralyze. Medium.
6 HD - Half-Fiend Gnoll Warlock (MM IV). Medium. Probably not that great, but I love the idea of it.
7 HD - Ambush Drake (MM III). An alternative to the wyvern - it's smaller and gets a breath weapon. Medium.
7 HD - Marresh (MM II). A ranged shooter like a gnoll. Medium.
9 HD - Amnizu (MM II). Quickened Fireball 3/day and Feeblemind touch at will. Medium.
10 - Zovvut (MM II). So-so, but it doubles as a wight factory. Medium.
12 HD - Kelvezu. 35 AC, 8d6 sneak attack, other nice stuff. Good roguish pick. Medium.
12 HD - Arcanaloth (MM II). 12 HD demon that casts spells as a 12 sorcerer. Several awesome at-wills, including shapechange (!!). Medium.
13 HD -Gray Linnorn (MM II). Here's a broken choice. Casts as a 17th level cleric (!), Shapechange 3/day (!!) along with other abilities, DR 15, SR 31 (!!!), and has a breath weapon, melee, and blindsight 120ft. Huge.
15 HD - Steelwing. (MM V) Gets a 15d6 ranged attack every 1d4 rounds, fast healing 15, DR 15//adam, 5d6 dmg aura, auto-miss chance on it, high AC, and a 17-20 crit range. It's pretty crazy for a non-caster. Large.
16 HD - Malebranche (MM II). It's like a pit fiend without the spell-likes - very scary. Huge.
17 HD - Rakshasa, Ak-chazar (MM III). It's like having a pet dread necromancer. Medium or large?
19 HD - Concordant Killer (MM IV). Sort of like a neutral Solar. Several quickened SLAs and deadly weapons.
20 HD - Dread Linnorm. Very powerful - A dragon that casts as a sorcerer 18 and has an energy draining bite, as well as two 12d6 breath weapons. Colossal.

AslanCross
2010-03-08, 05:33 PM
The Malebranche has been updated in Fiendish Codex II.

Person_Man
2010-03-08, 05:39 PM
AND you can Share Spells with it!

No need to even worry about what mount you want, as you can always change it with Polymorph or Polymorph any Object on a whim.

Akal Saris
2010-03-08, 07:05 PM
Good point, Person_Man, though if you frequently rely on polymorph tricks then it would be best to get a spell-casting/SLA mount (generally an outsider), or one with a naturally high BAB and good saves (dragon or outsider).

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-08, 07:19 PM
It's a ridiculously broken class. For one, you can get higher then 20HD if you try.

Also, the ONLY limitation is HD. Meaning you can get a Solar. Or a Paragon Solar. Or a Chronotyryn, which has two full round actions. AND you can Share Spells with it!

It is one of the most broken PrCs in print.

+1 to Head-desk count.

Seriously, when your mount is more powerful than the PC riding it, it means you've either hyper-specialized or done something wrong. Chronotyryns are 3.0, so most DMs won't allow them. Solars as a Mount? Most DMs would smack you flat-out, and the Solar's buddies would likely view you as an insult to Celestials.

Use some effing logic.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-03-08, 07:31 PM
Chronotyryns are 3.0, so most DMs won't allow them.

Well, the DM is already allowing Zhentarim Skymage. And this abuse is no more ridiculous than strict RAW use of sarrukh, beholder mage, et cetera.
Although I am somewhat sad at how liberally the quoted post uses "broken". It gives me the sense that it might not be used entirely accurately.

FishAreWet
2010-03-08, 07:58 PM
Zhentarim Skymage is 3.0.

Calmar
2010-03-08, 08:30 PM
6 HD - Succubus. Much like Nale in OOTS, you can have a kinky minion very easily. Medium

I know that there are guys who'd argue that you can indeed ride a succubus, but as far as this PrC goes it is supposed to be a a flying monster to use as a mount, not some creature you just happen to like for its powers - let alone a good-aligned one. It's a Zhentarim Skymage, after all.

BenTheJester
2010-03-08, 08:41 PM
Well, the DM is already allowing Zhentarim Skymage. And this abuse is no more ridiculous than strict RAW use of sarrukh, beholder mage, et cetera.
Although I am somewhat sad at how liberally the quoted post uses "broken". It gives me the sense that it might not be used entirely accurately.

There's a difference between allowing the Skymage(who is not FORCED to be abused) and allowing it to ride Solars.

herrhauptmann
2010-03-08, 09:59 PM
You know, for some reason I always thought the Z. Skymage was limited to creatures that you can put a saddle onto.
Dragons, gryphons, eagles etc.
Didn't think a solar or ogre mage could count as a mount...

Starbuck_II
2010-03-08, 10:02 PM
You know, for some reason I always thought the Z. Skymage was limited to creatures that you can put a saddle onto.
Dragons, gryphons, eagles etc.
Didn't think a solar or ogre mage could count as a mount...

How else do you get 1/2 ogres if you can't ride Ogres? :smallwink:

Akal Saris
2010-03-08, 11:48 PM
I know that there are guys who'd argue that you can indeed ride a succubus, but as far as this PrC goes it is supposed to be a a flying monster to use as a mount, not some creature you just happen to like for its powers - let alone a good-aligned one. It's a Zhentarim Skymage, after all.

I agree with this in general, but every game is different. In OOTS we've seen Roy picked up and flown around by his sylph girlfriend, and Nale is carried by his succubus as well. And by normal rules, a small or tiny creature could ride on the shoulders/back of a medium one anyhow - so I figured there wasn't much harm in including the smaller creatures that were worthwhile. Who knows when somebody will want to play an unseelie fey pixie or something?

Personally, I've seen enough fantasy games with goblins riding ogres that I'd allow small-sized humanoids to ride large or huge humanoids in my games, anyhow. I wouldn't allow the planetar or solar in my game, but if I didn't include it on the list somebody with a looser interpretation of the rules would ask why such a good flying race wasn't there.

It's really not that big of a balance issue anyhow - the cornugon, nightmare, and gray/dread linnorns are some of the best mounts that I could find, and all of them are legitimately mount-sized creatures (based on google images, the cornugon demon looks like a human-dragon cross to me - at huge size, it would be quite easy for a small creature to fit on its back with a saddle).

Here's a shorter list for those who want a mount that is either 3 sizes larger than the rider (small with huge, etc) or a quadrupedal mount:

Core options: (and skipping very poor options)
Dragons - if you're a small-sized race like a gnome, then the younger dragons might be worthwhile.
4 HD - Giant Eagle. Not many choices at this HD. Large.
6 HD - Manticore. One of the few ranged attackers you can get early on. Large
6 HD - Nightmare. One of the classics for a reason. Awesome flying, good defenses, and lots of mobility. Large.
7 HD - Griffon. Just a typical bruiser. Large.
7 HD - Wyvern. A large dragon at this HD is nice; strong poison, grab attack, and good feats.
12 HD - Yrthak. Another ranged attacker, and blindsight is nifty.
15 HD - Cornugon. An amazing melee monster with a fear aura, automatic stunning attacks, a huge AC, DR, regen, SR 28, and good feats. Awesome. Huge.
18 HD - Pit Fiend. Like the Cornugon, but even better. Huge.
20 HD - Balor! Generally the ultimate goal, but very difficult to achieve. Huge.

Any HD: Half-Fiend, Half-Dragon, Vampire (all grant wings). Technically you could have a templated creature for a mount, but that's venturing into dangerous territory.

Non-core: (Monster Manuals only, skipping poor options)
4 HD - Desmodu Guard/Hunting Bat (MMII). Both have blindsight - the hunting bat has trip and a great attack bonus, the guard has wounding, spring attack, and better HP/Dmg. Large.
7 HD - Ambush Drake (MM III). An alternative to the wyvern - it's smaller and gets a breath weapon. Medium.
13 HD -Gray Linnorn (MM II). Here's a broken choice. Casts as a 17th level cleric (!), Shapechange 3/day (!!) along with other abilities, DR 15, SR 31 (!!!), and has a breath weapon, melee, and blindsight 120ft. Huge.
15 HD - Steelwing. (MM V) Gets a 15d6 ranged attack every 1d4 rounds, fast healing 15, DR 15//adam, 5d6 dmg aura, auto-miss chance on it, high AC, and a 17-20 crit range. It's pretty crazy for a non-caster. Large.
16 HD - Malebranche (MM II). It's like a pit fiend without the spell-likes - very scary. Huge. Apparently updated in FC II.
20 HD - Dread Linnorm. Very powerful - A dragon that casts as a sorcerer 18 and has an energy draining bite, as well as two 12d6 breath weapons. Colossal.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-08, 11:50 PM
I agree with this in general, but every game is different. In OOTS we've seen Roy picked up and flown around by his sylph girlfriend, and Nale is carried by his succubus as well. And by normal rules, a small or tiny creature could ride on the shoulders/back of a medium one anyhow - so I figured there wasn't much harm in including the smaller creatures that were worthwhile. Who knows when somebody will want to play an unseelie fey pixie or something?

Wouldn't that be governed by mere Carrying Capacity, as no actual mounted combat rules were referenced? Likely, it was a Grapple and Roy/Nale was just willing to auto-fail the check (though they have good reason to).

herrhauptmann
2010-03-09, 12:14 AM
I agree with this in general, but every game is different. In OOTS we've seen Roy picked up and flown around by his sylph girlfriend, and Nale is carried by his succubus as well. And by normal rules, a small or tiny creature could ride on the shoulders/back of a medium one anyhow - so I figured there wasn't much harm in including the smaller creatures that were worthwhile. Who knows when somebody will want to play an unseelie fey pixie or something?
Personally, I've seen enough fantasy games with goblins riding ogres that I'd allow small-sized humanoids to ride large or huge humanoids in my games, anyhow. I wouldn't allow the planetar or solar in my game, but if I didn't include it on the list somebody with a looser interpretation of the rules would ask why such a good flying race wasn't there.


Riding on a person's back (as a halfling or child) is a lot different from riding on a horse or big dog and controlling it via combination of bit, bridle, knees, riding crop.
Plus Nale and Roy were both being carried by their lovers like a big suitcase. Not riding on their backs like a horse. I dunno about you, but I can't imagine a DM letting someone make ride checks while be carried in someone else's arms.
Never seen a goblin riding an ogre. Which book, boardgame (or published adventure) had that? Goblins riding worgs/wargs however, is a standard trope because tolkien included it in The Hobbit. But that's a small biped riding on the back of a medium quadruped.

But if getting carried like that counts as being mounted, does that mean Roy is regularly getting mounted by Durkon (sexual innuendo intended) early in the comic, because the party regularly runs away from monsters?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0004.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0090.html

FishAreWet
2010-03-09, 12:24 AM
A Solar could fly horizontally and you ride on it's back. And remember, the mount is your slave. So yes, it is insulting. But it doesn't really matter. There are so many amazing example that are unarguably mountable. Like the Grey Linnorn or the Dread Linnorn or the Chronotyryn or most Dragons. Just look at Akal's list. And thats not even near complete!

Another big issue with the class is how early you can get the mount. You can enter the class at ECL 4, IIRC, and have full mount abilities by level 8. Full mount abilities meaning 6 + Cha modifer HD of anything you want. At level 8 what is your Cha mod going to be without trying hard? 2 racial, 4 item, 2 levels from an 18 puts you at 8. That is 14HD worth of anything you want. Most creatures with that many HD at CR 7-11. With some ridiculous ones hitting CR 20. that is before you're a Half-Fey Magic Blooded Unseelie Fey and all sorts of other ridiculous Cha boosting things. And that's before templating the creature.

And Sinfire had a point. You have Share Spells. It doesn't even matter what the mount is, because it's whatever you want.

faceroll
2010-03-09, 12:33 AM
You know, for some reason I always thought the Z. Skymage was limited to creatures that you can put a saddle onto.
Dragons, gryphons, eagles etc.
Didn't think a solar or ogre mage could count as a mount...

I think that's how all mounts are supposed to work. The DMG puts it as "able AND willing." An ogre is willing, but not able, for instance.


And remember, the mount is [B]your slave.[/B

That's not what the rules say.

FishAreWet
2010-03-09, 12:35 AM
If it's a slave is all a matter of flavor. And I was responding to Sinfire saying that 'Celestia would be pissed.' And the Cha mechanic and the language in the text heavily suggests it as a slave, so does the fact that it's Zhentarim. It attacks and runs away at first opportunity... But it's all moot. Slave is not a defined term in DnD and the fact is that the mount follows your every command.

EDIT: Having reread the class, it says it's as loyal as a Animal Companion. Which means it does whatever the hell you want. Oh, and, "Certain skymages have even enslaved fiends."

faceroll
2010-03-09, 12:38 AM
If it's a slave is all a matter of flavor. And I was responding to Sinfire saying that 'Celestia would be pissed.' And the Cha mechanic and the language in the text heavily suggests it as a slave, so does the fact that it's Zhentarim. But it's all moot. Slave is not a defined term in DnD and the fact is that the mount follows your every command.

No, it says it's like an animal companion, which leaves if you mistreat it.

[edit]
Huh, there's no "don't beat you animal friends" clause.

herrhauptmann
2010-03-09, 12:40 AM
No, it says it's like an animal companion, which leaves if you mistreat it.

More likely an evil/ angry good creature would betray you when you're weakened.

FishAreWet
2010-03-09, 12:40 AM
You're right then. The rules for the ability are not consistent with the flavor of the ability, but that sure is what they say.

faceroll
2010-03-09, 12:43 AM
You're right then. The rules for the ability are not consistent with the flavor of the ability, but that sure is what they say.

I can't find anywhere that it says you can't manhandle your animals. I could have sworn I've seen it, though.

FishAreWet
2010-03-09, 12:48 AM
The mechanic of the mount fleeing if your Cha drops, to me, signifies that you're exerting your Force of Personality over it which stop it from fleeing. But the second that Force drops, it sees freedom and can escape. If just being mean to it would make it flee then I feel the stipulation of Cha dropping is useless.

Akal Saris
2010-03-09, 01:20 AM
In 3.0 you couldn't beat your animals because they were your "friends" from Animal Friendship. In 3.5 they won't leave you - the half-orc druid has "Bully animal" to use his strength as a wild empathy modifier, for example. For Zhentarim Skymage, the flavor suggests to me that you can be evil to your pets, because they are bound to you by some sort of magical Suggestion/force of will and the eagerness to share in your power.

Somebody asked about goblins riding ogres earlier. I believe I've seen it in Warhammer, and there's also a goblin hero in Warcraft III's expansion who rides an ogre. Probably also in WoW as well. Arms & Equipment (D&D 3.0) Pg. 91 also has rules for an ogre carrying a goblin - it "straps the little wretch to its back and uses it as a tail gunner." Talented goblins can control the ogre completely.

Other suggested humanoid-shaped mounts from the same book are the girallon and gray render (the gray render doesn't need a saddle b/c of its broad shoulders and gentleness). Humanoid mounts should generally be two or more sizes larger than their rider, and the saddle for such a creature resembles an open backpack with leg holes, with the rider generally facing forward, looking over the mount's shoulders.

So there you have it - in-game support for humanoid mounts. And now I want to go and play a goblin skymage riding an ogre magi :P

Kalirren
2010-03-09, 02:23 AM
Wow. Now I have an idea for a Sorcerer/Zhentarim Skymage/Fiendbinder. Pimp My Epic...Pit Fiend?!

faceroll
2010-03-09, 02:31 AM
Somebody asked about goblins riding ogres earlier. I believe I've seen it in Warhammer, and there's also a goblin hero in Warcraft III's expansion who rides an ogre. Probably also in WoW as well. Arms & Equipment (D&D 3.0) Pg. 91 also has rules for an ogre carrying a goblin - it "straps the little wretch to its back and uses it as a tail gunner." Talented goblins can control the ogre completely.

There's also Master Blaster from Mad Max: Beyond the Thunderdome. That's a midget who rides on a big ugly guys back in black plate mail.

Akal Saris
2010-03-09, 02:56 AM
I'm also influenced because one of my PCs back when I was DMing in high school was a paladin with a tinker gnome henchman who was fused to his full plate, so he always had a gnome riding shotgun for him :P