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AtwasAwamps
2010-03-08, 10:31 AM
Have you ever had a moment where someone…just completely missed the point in a discussion about a game? Whether it boils down to plot, DMing, mechanics, whatever…someone who just was not looking at the same page you were? I forward a recent example of a conversation I had:

Me: I would never take Weapon Focus as a feat unless it was a prereq for a class I wanted to be in or if I had somehow completely run out of feats and was playing a fighter to level 20.

Friend: Why? Weapon Focus is a solid feat. Any melee fighter should take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization.

Me: I completely disagree. I think both of those feats are subpar in comparison to any other feat you could take to accomplish a goal within a character build.

Friend: Fair enough, but I think that’s mostly because you’re a flavor guy and we’re talking about numbers.



::headdesk::

Kol Korran
2010-03-08, 11:12 AM
one of my players has played a really absent minded wizard. "played" might be a bit of a stretch, since the guy is really absent minded himself. in RL he's a physicist and an engineer, but the guy can't seem to understand which dice you roll to hit, and which one is for the damage.

but it extends to more than that- conversing with him is like having a conversation with a few other people, all of them talking to each other and exchanging ideas, and sometimes, just sometimes one of them notices what you are saying.

He's a source of many frustrations, but many laughs as well. he quit gaming after some time, and have almost nearly forgot he ever played. ("D&D? what's that? some sort of band. a game? can i play? no, she's getting home later.... <loosing the thread of conversation>)

so yeah, not exactly what you're talking about, but close.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-08, 12:04 PM
Make sure to point out the fact that Weapon Finesse is effectively Weapon Focus on crack. Even with the Elite Array, Weapon Finesse is twice the feat Weapon Focus is.

BRC
2010-03-08, 12:26 PM
Make sure to point out the fact that Weapon Finesse is effectively Weapon Focus on crack. Even with the Elite Array, Weapon Finesse is twice the feat Weapon Focus is.
I use weapon focus all the time, but that's mainly for NPC's I'm trying to make quickly and who I don't want to have to spend lots of time thinking about or running.

AtwasAwamps
2010-03-08, 12:28 PM
I use weapon focus all the time, but that's mainly for NPC's I'm trying to make quickly and who I don't want to have to spend lots of time thinking about or running.

Yeeeah...half my NPC fodder has toughness + weapon focus.

That way when they run into the guys with heavy repeating crossbows hiding behind church pews with rapid shot, precise shot, and crossbow sniper, they can cry.

valadil
2010-03-08, 12:52 PM
One of my players was incapable of reading odd numbered paragraphs. I'd send him an email and he'd just miss half of it. Maybe it was even ones, I don't know. But he never acted confused. He insisted that he understood what was going on. When pressed he just made stuff up and claimed that it came from me. I honestly don't think he knew what was in game and what he'd fabricated.

This was especially problematic because he was the assassin hiding in the party. He didn't know if his own backstory was true or not and it made running the game nigh impossible.

bosssmiley
2010-03-08, 01:59 PM
Have you ever had a moment where someone…just completely missed the point in a discussion about a game? Whether it boils down to plot, DMing, mechanics, whatever…someone who just was not looking at the same page you were?

I make this a fixed policy when posting.

Oh. Wait... :smallconfused:

MlleRouge
2010-03-08, 02:48 PM
I have a friend who is very fluff-centric, which is okay...but he takes everything *very*literally as well. If his character gets mad when he's fighting, it MUST take a level in barbarian to explain it. If it is very religious, it has to have a dip in a divine spellcasting class of some sort. And so forth. Everyone else has tried to explain that not everything has to be taken literally and either he doesn't want to hear it or it flies over his head...not sure which.

In addition, fluff has to be taken literally and if something doesn't fit his idea for a character, he has to find another class that fits better. Trying to explain to him my concept for a totally refluffed rogue that I wanted to play was *fun*.

Godskook
2010-03-08, 02:51 PM
Me: I would never take Weapon Focus as a feat unless it was a prereq for a class I wanted to be in or if I had somehow completely run out of feats and was playing a fighter to level 20.

Friend: Why? Weapon Focus is a solid feat. Any melee fighter should take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization.

Me: I completely disagree. I think both of those feats are subpar in comparison to any other feat you could take to accomplish a goal within a character build.

Friend: Fair enough, but I think that’s mostly because you’re a flavor guy and we’re talking about numbers.



::headdesk::

I feel your pain. I do. Wow.

AtwasAwamps
2010-03-08, 03:11 PM
I feel your pain. I do. Wow.

You weren't there for the 20 minutes of me carefully explaining my point.

It made me realize I am a bit too...into...systems when I started detailing opportunity costs of taking that particular chain of feats and so on and so forth...

TaintedLight
2010-03-08, 03:14 PM
I have a friend who is very fluff-centric, which is okay...but he takes everything *very*literally as well. If his character gets mad when he's fighting, it MUST take a level in barbarian to explain it. If it is very religious, it has to have a dip in a divine spellcasting class of some sort. And so forth. Everyone else has tried to explain that not everything has to be taken literally and either he doesn't want to hear it or it flies over his head...not sure which.

In addition, fluff has to be taken literally and if something doesn't fit his idea for a character, he has to find another class that fits better. Trying to explain to him my concept for a totally refluffed rogue that I wanted to play was *fun*.

Good lord, do you and I know the same guy here?

One of the guys in my group is playing a knight (that is, a warrior of noble lineage) and has levels in knight (the class). We cannot convince him how subpar that is to a fighter with well selected feats. To be fair, he is building this for a 30th level game where the casters (Fochluchan Lyrist and Wiz/Sorc/UltMag) have agreed to consciously pull their punches. The knight frankly sucks from 1-20 and it doesn't really get better from there. He can't get past the idea that he has to have knight levels to be a knight. A fighter chassis is not a knight, says he. Just a fighter.

It's Miko Syndrome, I'm telling you...

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-08, 03:14 PM
Make sure to point out the fact that Weapon Finesse is effectively Weapon Focus on crack. Even with the Elite Array, Weapon Finesse is twice the feat Weapon Focus is.

Your kidding me right?
Weapon finesse adds your dexterity INSTEAD of strength to your attack rolls not on top of it. If your strength is equal to or higher then your dexterity then the feat does nothing.

TaintedLight
2010-03-08, 03:16 PM
Unless your strength is higher then your dexterity then the feat does nothing.
Weapon finesse adds your dexterity INSTEAD of strength not on top of.

Also, sadly no power attack goodness with light weapons.

AtwasAwamps
2010-03-08, 03:21 PM
Good lord, do you and I know the same guy here?

One of the guys in my group is playing a knight (that is, a warrior of noble lineage) and has levels in knight (the class). We cannot convince him how subpar that is to a fighter with well selected feats. To be fair, he is building this for a 30th level game where the casters (Fochluchan Lyrist and Wiz/Sorc/UltMag) have agreed to consciously pull their punches. The knight frankly sucks from 1-20 and it doesn't really get better from there. He can't get past the idea that he has to have knight levels to be a knight. A fighter chassis is not a knight, says he. Just a fighter.

It's Miko Syndrome, I'm telling you...

A knight can frankly be quite a strong character archetype. It takes work to bring it out, though. I'd place it equal to a fighter (which the tier system just about does). And honestly, it's a FUN class. Loyal Beyond Death...what better way is there to be a badass in full plate?

lsfreak
2010-03-08, 03:23 PM
It's Miko Syndrome, I'm telling you...

Actually, Miko did it right - class does not determine archetype. Rather, it's not understanding what Miko meant that's the problem.

I know someone who did the same. I suggested they plan a psion who came from a Hindu/Buddhist-like monastery to explain the special powers (via meditation/enlightenment). He then proceeded to take levels in monk, since obviously anyone who comes from a monastery has levels in monk.

I often run into this problem trying to explain optimization as (potentially) a betterment of roleplaying rather than an adversary of roleplaying. Some people just don't get it.

TaintedLight
2010-03-08, 03:31 PM
Actually, Miko did it right - class does not determine archetype. Rather, it's not understanding what Miko meant that's the problem.

I know someone who did the same. I suggested they plan a psion who came from a Hindu/Buddhist-like monastery to explain the special powers (via meditation/enlightenment). He then proceeded to take levels in monk, since obviously anyone who comes from a monastery has levels in monk.

I often run into this problem trying to explain optimization as (potentially) a betterment of roleplaying rather than an adversary of roleplaying. Some people just don't get it.

You are correct. I should have called it Reverse Miko Syndrome or something more like that.

And AtwasAwamps, I recognize that knights can do some cool things and wholeheartedly agree that Loyal Beyond Death is awesome and very powerful. The problem is that like 75% at least of the enemies a 30th level character faces are immune to his mind-affecting stuff or have will saves good enough to ignore them. The worst part of it is that he just kept taking junk feats like improved critical. And Great Strength 3 times...

AtwasAwamps
2010-03-08, 03:32 PM
You are correct. I should have called it Reverse Miko Syndrome or something more like that.

And AtwasAwamps, I recognize that knights can do some cool things and wholeheartedly agree that Loyal Beyond Death is awesome and very powerful. The problem is that like 75% at least of the enemies a 30th level character faces are immune to his mind-affecting stuff or have will saves good enough to ignore them. The worst part of it is that he just kept taking junk feats like improved critical. And Great Strength 3 times...

Oh right. Sorry. I don't take crazy epic stuff into account because its...umm...crazy.

Godskook
2010-03-08, 03:35 PM
Also, sadly no power attack goodness with light weapons.

Unarmed Strikes and Spiked Chains are both finesse-able. What other weapon would a power-attack + weapon finesse player wield????

TaintedLight
2010-03-08, 03:36 PM
Oh right. Sorry. I don't take crazy epic stuff into account because its...umm...crazy.

Yeah... Not sure why, but our DM agrees that epic is ridiculous yet at the same time likes running epic games a lot. Meh, who doesn't like the opportunity to crush worlds from time to time?

My guy in that campaign is actually pretty silly. Casts as a 20th level wizard and 20th level sorcerer, taking only a total hit to CL of -2. I've already promised the DM I won't Quickened Twinned Intensified Split Admixtured Polar Ray all of his deities, though. And before anyone mentions it, I hate epic spells with a passion. I will NEVER create a character who uses them :p.

TaintedLight
2010-03-08, 03:38 PM
Unarmed Strikes and Spiked Chains are both finesse-able. What other weapon would a power-attack + weapon finesse player wield????

The issue I see with this is that Weapon Focus is applicable to literally anything you can use as a weapon. Pointy Stick, Table, Longsword, Cheese Wedge...

This combo works for two weapons, which is too narrow to be an option for a wide range of character builds and concepts. Also, personally I have problems with the spiked chain, but that's another discussion.

AtwasAwamps
2010-03-08, 03:41 PM
The issue I see with this is that Weapon Focus is applicable to literally anything you can use as a weapon. Pointy Stick, Table, Longsword, Cheese Wedge...

This combo works for two weapons, which is too narrow to be an option for a wide range of character builds and concepts. Also, personally I have problems with the spiked chain, but that's another discussion.

I'm going to start taking ridiculous weapon focus feats. Or play a warblade who starts out with Weapon Focus: Ham Sandwich and consistently switches back and forth.

TaintedLight
2010-03-08, 03:43 PM
I'm going to start taking ridiculous weapon focus feats. Or play a warblade who starts out with Weapon Focus: Ham Sandwich and consistently switches back and forth.

I actually made a comment very much along those lines in a thread where I was asking for some help with a warblade NPC. I hadn't really let the crazy awesomeness of warblades sink in yet when that realization hit :smallbiggrin:.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-03-08, 03:50 PM
Unarmed Strikes and Spiked Chains are both finesse-able. What other weapon would a power-attack + weapon finesse player wield????

Elven Courtblade.

BRC
2010-03-08, 03:53 PM
Elven Courtblade.
I once built a Swashbuckler(Well, Swashbuckler 3/fighter 2) for a new player who used Power Attack+Weapon Finesse+Leap Attack+Elven Courtblade to great effect.

Mind you, she rolled really well for her stats (Well, I rolled for her, and the dice came out really high). but it still turned out very well.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-03-08, 03:54 PM
I once built a Swashbuckler(Well, Swashbuckler 3/fighter 2) for a new player who used Power Attack+Weapon Finesse+Leap Attack+Elven Courtblade to great effect.


Now that's how you buckle the swash. For bonus points, add battle jump.

John Campbell
2010-03-08, 03:57 PM
One of the guys in my group is playing a knight (that is, a warrior of noble lineage) and has levels in knight (the class). We cannot convince him how subpar that is to a fighter with well selected feats.
Up through Knight 4 or 5, I wouldn't call it subpar at all. I'll trade a reduced selection of bonus feats for making my threatened area difficult terrain (combine with Mage Slayer for bonus fun!), the ability to wear mithril full plate without speed reduction, and some minor bonuses including a bigger hit die and a good Will progression any day. Especially if the character concept is a chivalrous type who'd pretty much be following the code of conduct anyway.

Admittedly, there isn't much reason to stay in it after 5th level.


It's Miko Syndrome, I'm telling you...
Samurai would have made the point better. That class sucks beginning to end.

AtwasAwamps
2010-03-08, 04:03 PM
I actually made a comment very much along those lines in a thread where I was asking for some help with a warblade NPC. I hadn't really let the crazy awesomeness of warblades sink in yet when that realization hit :smallbiggrin:.

I think my favorite part is imagining this guy practicing with different types of food in the morning. For an hour.

"Why is Sochiro beating that training dummy with a warm croissant?"
"Because HE'S AWESOME."

BRC
2010-03-08, 04:09 PM
Now that's how you buckle the swash. For bonus points, add battle jump.
What book is Battle Jump in

And for the record, this character had 16 str, 18 dex, and 14 int.


Also, Knights can be very good characters proved your party isn't playing one of those games where AC and hit points have become irrelevant. Knights can draw fire from the squishies and take quite a beating.

As, what's the crit range on a pickle?

AtwasAwamps
2010-03-08, 04:11 PM
As, what's the crit range on a pickle?

18-20/x2, but don't forget you have to get past their Dill Resistance.

Jayngfet
2010-03-08, 04:15 PM
In my entire time as a play by post DM and player I can remember ...maybe half a dozen people who were able to read every post and respond accordingly. Half of THOSE needed prompting. My current group ignored an explosion and a sonic boom in favor of talking about the weather. Both of these events took three posts, and had NPC's actually pay attention to it instead of the conversation. When NPC's pointed out the damage left by it they simply asked "how do you know local geography so well?":smallsigh:.

skywalker
2010-03-08, 04:16 PM
one of my players has played a really absent minded wizard. "played" might be a bit of a stretch, since the guy is really absent minded himself. in RL he's a physicist and an engineer, but the guy can't seem to understand which dice you roll to hit, and which one is for the damage.

I think we all have one of these friends. You and I just happen to have one who rolls all the quirks up into one.


One of my players was incapable of reading odd numbered paragraphs. I'd send him an email and he'd just miss half of it. Maybe it was even ones, I don't know. But he never acted confused. He insisted that he understood what was going on. When pressed he just made stuff up and claimed that it came from me. I honestly don't think he knew what was in game and what he'd fabricated.

This was especially problematic because he was the assassin hiding in the party. He didn't know if his own backstory was true or not and it made running the game nigh impossible.

That is awesome. I mean, no, terrible for you (especially if running a serious game), but consider it a moment from the outside perspective. Hilarious!


It made me realize I am a bit too...into...systems when I started detailing opportunity costs of taking that particular chain of feats and so on and so forth...

Some of us just look at the world this way. It's not just you. Don't feel bad.


Up through Knight 4 or 5, I wouldn't call it subpar at all. I'll trade a reduced selection of bonus feats for making my threatened area difficult terrain (combine with Mage Slayer for bonus fun!), the ability to wear mithril full plate without speed reduction, and some minor bonuses including a bigger hit die and a good Will progression any day. Especially if the character concept is a chivalrous type who'd pretty much be following the code of conduct anyway.

Admittedly, there isn't much reason to stay in it after 5th level.

I like knights. The challenge, etc. aren't particularly strong, but it's not a huge bother to me for the types of games I usually play (somewhere between 3rd and 10th level, when I ever do play 3.5).

arguskos
2010-03-08, 04:49 PM
Yeah, Knights are actually a FINE class. I've had an NPC Knight in the party for some time, and he's a great meatshield. Knight's Challenge lets him somewhat decently draw aggro, he can tank amazingly well (d12+good defensive abilities=yayfuntimes), and Knight fits perfectly into a great melee PrC: Hellbreaker.

Now... 30 levels of Knight? No. Just... no. :smallsigh:

TaintedLight
2010-03-08, 04:51 PM
Yeah, Knights are actually a FINE class. I've had an NPC Knight in the party for some time, and he's a great meatshield. Knight's Challenge lets him somewhat decently draw aggro, he can tank amazingly well (d12+good defensive abilities=yayfuntimes), and Knight fits perfectly into a great melee PrC: Hellbreaker.

Now... 30 levels of Knight? No. Just... no. :smallsigh:

Ah, he actually didn't go that route. It's Knight 20/Fighter 5/Dragon Devotee 5. And no coherent concept in sight really.

huttj509
2010-03-08, 05:02 PM
I've seen mention of combining Power Attack and Weapon finesse for good results or something. I for one cannot see anything that weapon finesse does to power attack to make power attack better or worse than it already is, or vice versa.

Basically, boost str, get +hit and +damage. You can use a feat to shift this to +hit and +AC, basically, using Dex instead as your prime hit number.

PA lets you lose hit, and add to damage, sort of turning the above into {damage and more damage}, or {AC and damage} using Weapon Finesse. Of course the amounts that the various parts are increased/reduced by depends on specific stats, how much you PA for, etc.

Am I missing something, or did a joke cause me to be a victim of the thread title?

Godskook
2010-03-08, 05:09 PM
Am I missing something, or did a joke cause me to be a victim of the thread title?

Its got a lot to do with what race you want to play and what classes you want to focus on. A large+ barbarian(either through magic or race) will probably abhor weapon finesse, but an air goblin swordsage? He's lucky to even *have* 13 Str to qualify for PA.

huttj509
2010-03-08, 05:12 PM
As a side note, player of mine doing a TWF fighter 2/swordsage X. Since she's intending to keep using the same type of weapon, why would weapon focus not be as useful for the bonus to hit, especially since she has a 3/4 BAB class? Is it just the idea that that extra +1 only matters about 5% of the time, and it's weapon limited, or is there something more to it? Seems on topic since the first pose was expressing frustration with someone who didn't get the reasoning. She already has Weapon finesse so she can be dex focused (nimble acrobatic fighter type).

(houserule alert, I squashed the TWF feat chain from 3 feats into one that scales with BAB, same with TWD, as those really seemed to limit non-fighter TWF options in terms of what they could afford to take, and the TWF feats get worse and worse as you go up levels since they bring in a new attack at your lowest BAB, which is least likely to hit)

huttj509
2010-03-08, 05:16 PM
Its got a lot to do with what race you want to play and what classes you want to focus on. A large+ barbarian(either through magic or race) will probably abhor weapon finesse, but an air goblin swordsage? He's lucky to even *have* 13 Str to qualify for PA.

Right, but there's nothing that PA does that makes weapon finesse BETTER for a high dex build than it already is. Regardless of whether or not you have PA, WF is great for a high dex build that wants to hit things in melee.

The impression a couple above posts gave was that PA and WF combined led to shenanigans.

Thalnawr
2010-03-08, 05:18 PM
As a side note, player of mine doing a TWF fighter 2/swordsage X. Since she's intending to keep using the same type of weapon, why would weapon focus not be as useful for the bonus to hit, especially since she has a 3/4 BAB class? Is it just the idea that that extra +1 only matters about 5% of the time, and it's weapon limited, or is there something more to it? Seems on topic since the first pose was expressing frustration with someone who didn't get the reasoning. She already has Weapon finesse so she can be dex focused (nimble acrobatic fighter type).


Well, as a swordsage, she'll already get Weapon Focus with one martial discipline's worth of weapons as a class feature. No need to spend feats on more Weapon Focus feats.

huttj509
2010-03-08, 05:19 PM
Well, as a swordsage, she'll already get Weapon Focus with one martial discipline's worth of weapons as a class feature. No need to spend feats on more Weapon Focus feats.

Good point, I forgot that, I think she noticed it though when replanning her character. Just saw the comment about weapon focus and remembered the first character's incarnation had it.

Godskook
2010-03-08, 05:21 PM
As a side note, player of mine doing a TWF fighter 2/swordsage X. Since she's intending to keep using the same type of weapon, why would weapon focus not be as useful for the bonus to hit, especially since she has a 3/4 BAB class? Is it just the idea that that extra +1 only matters about 5% of the time, and it's weapon limited, or is there something more to it? Seems on topic since the first pose was expressing frustration with someone who didn't get the reasoning. She already has Weapon finesse so she can be dex focused (nimble acrobatic fighter type).

Does she have:
Shadow Blade - keys dex to damage
Adaptive Style - A nearly required Swordsage feat

If you've got that, shocktrooper is probably still better than weapon focus, even on a swordsage.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-03-08, 05:44 PM
What book is Battle Jump in

And for the record, this character had 16 str, 18 dex, and 14 int.




Unapproachable East.

Devils_Advocate
2010-03-09, 07:06 PM
I have a friend who is very fluff-centric, which is okay...but he takes everything *very*literally as well. If his character gets mad when he's fighting, it MUST take a level in barbarian to explain it. If it is very religious, it has to have a dip in a divine spellcasting class of some sort. And so forth. Everyone else has tried to explain that not everything has to be taken literally and either he doesn't want to hear it or it flies over his head...not sure which.

In addition, fluff has to be taken literally and if something doesn't fit his idea for a character, he has to find another class that fits better. Trying to explain to him my concept for a totally refluffed rogue that I wanted to play was *fun*.
That's not taking things literally so much as it is not understanding the "Not all birds are chickens" principle. A Barbarian's Rage involves getting angry in combat, but not necessarily vice versa; divine spellcasters are all religious, but not every religious character is a divine spellcaster; et cetera. Either that or he thinks that every aspect of a character needs some sort of mechanical representation, which is nuts. He seems to actually be disregarding the official fluff on religion in D&D, which states that a typical character (of any class) has a patron deity.

Now, some things do have specific mechanical representations. Being good at lying and having a good Bluff modifier are the same thing in the d20 system; if you say that your character is a great liar but he has a Bluff mod of -1, you've contradicted yourself. But e.g. routinely ambushing people doesn't make you a Rogue or a Ninja, because those classes represent more than just that.


I suggested they plan a psion who came from a Hindu/Buddhist-like monastery to explain the special powers (via meditation/enlightenment). He then proceeded to take levels in monk, since obviously anyone who comes from a monastery has levels in monk.
Well, not to say that he wasn't being silly, but my first thought for a psionicist from a monastery would be a Monk/Fist of Zuoken(sp?). That character concept does sort of suggest that build, to me... but it doesn't demand it.

You'd think that by making the iconic Monk a woman they would have clued people in to the fact that "monk" means something a bit different in D&D, but apparently not.


Unarmed Strikes and Spiked Chains are both finesse-able. What other weapon would a power-attack + weapon finesse player wield????
A rapier, maybe? Possibly two rapiers? Or natural weapons, or the aforementioned elven courtblade.


Not sure why, but our DM agrees that epic is ridiculous yet at the same time likes running epic games a lot.
Maybe your DM likes ridiculous. Heck, D&D has a fair amount of crazy-go-nuts stuff built right in, so you might as well take that and run with it. :smallamused:


Also, personally I have problems with the spiked chain, but that's another discussion.
Does it have anything to do with the fact that, unlike with, say, double weapons, the normal weapon that the spiked chain is a bizarre version of doesn't appear in the PHB, meaning that the book provides rules for spiked chains but not for just chains? :smallannoyed:

Honestly, I think that the weapon becomes significantly less absurd if you change it to just being a chain. All you really need to do is change the damage to bludgeoning.

TaintedLight
2010-03-09, 07:13 PM
Maybe your DM likes ridiculous. Heck, D&D has a fair amount of crazy-go-nuts stuff built right in, so you might as well take that and run with it. :smallamused:


Does it have anything to do with the fact that, unlike with, say, double weapons, the normal weapon that the spiked chain is a bizarre version of doesn't appear in the PHB, meaning that the book provides rules for spiked chains but not for just chains? :smallannoyed:

Honestly, I think that the weapon becomes significantly less absurd if you change it to just being a chain. All you really need to do is change the damage to bludgeoning.


1) I happen to KNOW he likes ridiculous. For goodness sake, he actually wrote up a character sheet for a divine rank 23 deity. Just because, says he :p.

2) That is part of it, but mostly I dislike how cheesy it is. It's essentially the Weapon That Does Everything. It has reach, it can be used in melee, it trips (HATE trip...), it disarms...

Basically, you don't even have to try all that hard with a spiked chain. That's dumb to me.

Math_Mage
2010-03-09, 07:55 PM
<snip>

You'd think that by making the iconic Monk a woman they would have clued people in to the fact that "monk" means something a bit different in D&D, but apparently not.

<snip>

Ember...or Danica? :smallamused:

MlleRouge
2010-03-09, 08:32 PM
It's [Reverse?] Miko Syndrome, I'm telling you...


I read the comic long before meeting this guy, but when I went back and read it again, it felt like I was being spoken to from afar :smallbiggrin:





That's not taking things literally so much as it is not understanding the "Not all birds are chickens" principle. A Barbarian's Rage involves getting angry in combat, but not necessarily vice versa; divine spellcasters are all religious, but not every religious character is a divine spellcaster; et cetera. Either that or he thinks that every aspect of a character needs some sort of mechanical representation, which is nuts. He seems to actually be disregarding the official fluff on religion in D&D, which states that a typical character (of any class) has a patron deity.

Now, some things do have specific mechanical representations. Being good at lying and having a good Bluff modifier are the same thing in the d20 system; if you say that your character is a great liar but he has a Bluff mod of -1, you've contradicted yourself. But e.g. routinely ambushing people doesn't make you a Rogue or a Ninja, because those classes represent more than just that.





That first line is a great way to put it, actually. I never meant to imply that some things don't need mechanical representation or that such representation is inherently wrong or annoying, though. Fluff and mechanics can be a lot of fun to pair together and find representations for, and some things certainly need it, but the way this fellow insists on representing *everything* and following fluff (at least some of it) to the letter strikes me as rather tunnel-visioned. Its pretty harmless, but sometimes it really blows our minds.

I recall giving him Vow of Obedience as a bonus feat because he took a vow to a king in character, so felt like he *had* to take that feat immediately...I tried to talk him out of it, saying he could take a vow without taking a vow *feat* and it just sort of bounced off.

illyrus
2010-03-09, 09:16 PM
This was a nWoD game and only a few sessions ago (still very early into the game). Our characters were going to be breaking into a museum to remove a few choice items that really shouldn't be there. Our plan was to disable the guards inside without killing them and our resident gun bunny decided to make a legal purchase of some rubber bullets in the town we're doing the job in and on the same day as we plan to do the job. There is a cop in the store and they strike up a conversation:

cop: So what do you need the rubber bullets for?
player: For a job at the museum.

Of course our characters were not there for that and thus didn't know of the giant bullseye symbols now painted on our backs. It has made the last few sessions somewhat interesting.

Abd al-Azrad
2010-03-09, 10:13 PM
Am I missing something, or did a joke cause me to be a victim of the thread title?

I find it amusing that, in a thread about missing the point, we've had a running discussion on a Weapon Finesse/Power Attack build.

Someone had to say it. :smallamused:

I guess this kinda counts: long ago, my epic party was hired by some church to recover one of their Paladins from Hell. He wasn't dead, he'd just gone down there to stir up trouble and was making the church all sorts of enemies, or something. Anyways, none of us were really paying attention to the details, just heard the parts about our target.

So we almost immediately telefragged him. Popped into Hell, killed him with epic cheese, and sauntered back to the church to collect our reward.

"You FAILED!" Oh riiiight... they wanted him alive...

lsfreak
2010-03-09, 10:19 PM
Well, not to say that he wasn't being silly, but my first thought for a psionicist from a monastery would be a Monk/Fist of Zuoken(sp?). That character concept does sort of suggest that build, to me... but it doesn't demand it.

Actually, he loved psionics and wanted to play a psion, but he's of the opinion that everything is better Asian (much to the amusement/annoyance of the Asian guy in our group). So I tried to give an option of a bodhisattva/yogi-ish psion who used meditation/enlightment to great effect. He promptly came to the conclusion that monastery = monk (which makes me want to headdesk so hard for reasons far beyond just D&D).

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-09, 11:07 PM
Yeah, Knights are actually a FINE class. I've had an NPC Knight in the party for some time, and he's a great meatshield. Knight's Challenge lets him somewhat decently draw aggro, he can tank amazingly well (d12+good defensive abilities=yayfuntimes), and Knight fits perfectly into a great melee PrC: Hellbreaker.

Now... 30 levels of Knight? No. Just... no. :smallsigh:

I think you mean Hellreaver, a Hellbreaker is a more monster oriented spellthief.

ericgrau
2010-03-09, 11:47 PM
Have you ever had a moment where someone…just completely missed the point in a discussion about a game? Whether it boils down to plot, DMing, mechanics, whatever…someone who just was not looking at the same page you were? I forward a recent example of a conversation I had:

Me: I would never take Weapon Focus as a feat unless it was a prereq for a class I wanted to be in or if I had somehow completely run out of feats and was playing a fighter to level 20.

Friend: Why? Weapon Focus is a solid feat. Any melee fighter should take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization.

Me: I completely disagree. I think both of those feats are subpar in comparison to any other feat you could take to accomplish a goal within a character build.

Friend: Fair enough, but I think that’s mostly because you’re a flavor guy and we’re talking about numbers.



::headdesk::
Not compared to, say, shocktrooper but among core feats it can't be beat. Attack bonus is one of the most underestimated things among players but when you're doing double digits in damage increasing the number of your hits (and thus damage) by some percentage beats any of the other minor options. Even other feats that add a +2 or +4 to something are usually used less than 1/2 or 1/4 as much as attack rolls and thus still fall behind.

Just a guess but maybe both of you are so certain that you're totally ignoring eachother. Then you fill in eachother's ignored logic with your own assumptions about what he must be thinking. Such discussions don't tend to go very far.

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-10, 12:12 AM
18-20/x2, but don't forget you have to get past their Dill Resistance.

Ahhh, man that's funny a regular 'Vlasic'.

Devils_Advocate
2010-03-10, 01:19 AM
Well, one could certainly debate the usefulness of Weapon Focus in a core game, but AtwasAwamps's friend was still clearly missing the point. (AA wasn't addressing the issue from a flavor perspective.)


It's essentially the Weapon That Does Everything. It has reach, it can be used in melee, it trips (HATE trip...), it disarms...
Allow me to list things that other weapons in the PHB can do that a spiked chain can't: do bludgeoning, slashing, and/or nonlethal (unless it's merciful) damage, be impossible to disarm, be thrown effectively, be easily concealed, do double damage when readied against a charge, be wielded one-handed (so no TWF nor non-animated shield), deal the most damage, have the highest crit range or crit multiplier, deal double damage when used from the back of a charging mount, entangle enemies.

Its actual damage is subpar. The double reach and finesseability are pretty much all that it has going for it over a flail. And like Power Attack and Weapon Finesse, it's more a tool to make certain builds viable than overpowered. (Contrast to, say, Natural Spell.) If I were gonna take something away from battlefield control Fighters, I think that it'd be the extra attack from Improved Trip. Now that strikes me as silly.

IMHO. :smalltongue:

Ember...or Danica? :smallamused:
I don't know who that is. Should I?

Draz74
2010-03-10, 02:09 AM
I don't know who that is. Should I?

Not unless you read Forgotten Realms novels.