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Adonis1x23
2010-03-08, 06:22 PM
Does the Invisible Spell feat from City Scape make your monsters from Summoned Monster invisible?

I don't think I would actually do it in game, but I could see the inherent fun of summoning an invisible, fiendish, dire ape (SM5).

sofawall
2010-03-08, 06:26 PM
Does the Invisible Spell feat from City Scape make your monsters from Summoned Monster invisible?

I don't think I would actually do it in game, but I could see the inherent fun of summoning an invisible, fiendish, dire ape (SM5).

Yes.

Invisible Spell is just ridiculous. It's hard trying to find a non-weird use for it unless you're just blasting.

Volkov
2010-03-08, 06:29 PM
Being invisible is fun, waltz around invisibly and still be able to whack people upside the head is even better. The summon monster spells however get progressively less impressive though. Summoning a cr 15 monster at level 17 and onwards? I don't think a barbed devil is going even be much a speedbump against that snarling Forty hit dice balor if you're level 17.

I'd advise that you switch over to planar ally/binding and gate as soon as possible. They're much better (though much more time consuming in the former's case) at later levels.

And yes, Invisible spell does make your summoned meat-shields to buy time against the hungry monster so you can get your arse out of there useful allies invisible. Or at least that's how I'd rule it.

Yukitsu
2010-03-08, 06:31 PM
Yes.

Invisible Spell is just ridiculous. It's hard trying to find a non-weird use for it unless you're just blasting.

It's probably my favourite metamagic ability, simply for the DM headaches adjudicating it makes. :smallbiggrin:

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-08, 06:32 PM
Greater invisibility is even more fun. The summon monster spells get progressively less impressive though. Summoning a cr 15 monster at level 17 and onwards? I don't think a barbed devil is going even be much a speedbump against that snarling Forty hit dice balor if you're level 17.

...That's because the game's not designed with the concept of heavily advanced CR 20 creatures (up to CR 30) as its core balancing mechanism.

That's like using a Summon Monster 3 at level 17. (which is gained 12 levels before level 17)

Jack_Simth
2010-03-08, 06:33 PM
Does the Invisible Spell feat from City Scape make your monsters from Summoned Monster invisible?

I don't think I would actually do it in game, but I could see the inherent fun of summoning an invisible, fiendish, dire ape (SM5).
Technically? Yes, you'd get an invisible fiendish dire ape that way. And oh yes, the invisibility doesn't go away just because the fiendish dire ape attacks; it's effectively Greater Invisibility.

The Invisible Spell feat is ... odd ... that way. I find it works great for making Wall of Stone windows in your Wall of Stone dwelling (it doesn't open ... although it can, if you get lucky with Stone Shape... but that picture window / skylight is just as durable as the wall itself).

sofawall
2010-03-08, 06:37 PM
I don't think a barbed devil is going even be much a speedbump against that snarling Forty hit dice balor if you're level 17.


I don't think any level 17 non-full caster is going to be much of a speedbump to a CR 31 Barlor.

TaintedLight
2010-03-08, 06:39 PM
What happens if you use invisible obscuring mist? Inexplicably, nobody can see, but there's nothing there from all appearances?

The Glyphstone
2010-03-08, 06:39 PM
More importantly, what happens as the result of an Invisible Invisibility?

TaintedLight
2010-03-08, 06:41 PM
More importantly, what happens as the result of an Invisible Invisibility?

The game glitches :smallbiggrin:.

In all seriousness though, I don't think you can. Isn't Invisible Spell only for spells with an area?

Volkov
2010-03-08, 06:42 PM
More importantly, what happens as the result of an Invisible Invisibility?

The gods get a headache and petrify the offending spellcaster, then toss him into space.

Felyndiira
2010-03-08, 06:43 PM
In all seriousness though, I don't think you can. Isn't Invisible Spell only for spells with an area?

What happens as a result of invisible Invisibility Sphere =p?

Frosty
2010-03-08, 06:45 PM
Invisible spell Pass Door?

Volkov
2010-03-08, 06:45 PM
What happens as a result of invisible Invisibility Sphere =p?

The Gods get a really bad headache and turn the offending caster into a newt and build a bridge out of him, then when he gets better they burn him.

PrismaticPIA
2010-03-08, 07:15 PM
More importantly, what happens as the result of an Invisible Invisibility?

Invisible Spell forbids spells with a range of touch or personal.

Invisible Prismatic Sphere.

Edit: I'm thinking of Deceptive Spell. My bad.

PrismaticPIA
2010-03-08, 07:16 PM
What happens if you use invisible obscuring mist? Inexplicably, nobody can see, but there's nothing there from all appearances?

It makes monsters with True Seeing and/or See Invisibility go, "WTF!?".

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-08, 07:17 PM
Invisible Spell forbids spells with a range of touch or personal.

Invisible Prismatic Sphere.

Cityscape, yes?

No it doesn't.

And an invisible obscuring mist would be awesome against an enemy that you knew had continuous true sight.

Edit: Clarification: I'm looking at the feat in Cityscape and it has no restrictions on the spells to which it can be applied. The first line reads, "You can modify any spell you cast so that it carries no visible manifestation."

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Starscream
2010-03-08, 07:30 PM
More importantly, what happens as the result of an Invisible Invisibility?

You make a reflex save to dodge an incoming sourcebook.

TaintedLight
2010-03-08, 07:41 PM
You make a reflex save to dodge an incoming sourcebook.

This.

Seriously, though. I need to use invisible obscuring mist more...

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-08, 07:41 PM
You make a reflex save to dodge an incoming sourcebook.

There's no save for DM wrath.

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lsfreak
2010-03-08, 07:45 PM
This.

Seriously, though. I need to use invisible obscuring mist more...

That's actually a standard tactic. Since it's invisible, it doesn't actually impair the vision of anyone in the radius (vision impairment is based on the fog that's in the way)... unless they have see invisibility or true seeing. at high levels, quite a bit has see invisibility, and so you can hit it with impunity while they try and find you.

deuxhero
2010-03-08, 08:00 PM
...That's because the game's not designed with the concept of heavily advanced CR 20 creatures (up to CR 30) as its core balancing mechanism.

That's like using a Summon Monster 3 at level 17. (which is gained 12 levels before level 17)

1d4+1 Aid Anothers has some uses.

Adonis1x23
2010-03-08, 09:39 PM
I think Invisible Spell Shapechange would make the already broken spell even more cheesy.

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-08, 11:38 PM
I think Invisible Spell Shapechange would make the already broken spell even more cheesy.

Any wizard who can cast shapechange is A) going to face enemies that can see invisible things and B) going to have greater invisibility anyway.

I believe the intent is that the initial manifestation of the effect is invisible. That is, the fireball is invisible, the fires it starts aren't. For spells without specific visible manifestations, it isn't meant to do anything.

Unfortunately, RAI is not RAW.

Still, the feat refers to the manifestation of the spell becoming invisible. As much as I hate to bring a dictionary definition into this, a manifestation is the appearance, the summoning, the bringing into being of the effect. The effect itself, once manifested, is no longer the manifestation but is instead the product of that manifestation.

For a spell that does not describe any visual manifestation, the feat has no effect.

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taltamir
2010-03-09, 12:02 AM
insibile obscuring mist is invisinble to anyone but those with true sight.
It is the ultimate anti true sight, those with true sight see the obscuring mist, those without it see through it fine.

Also, cast invsibility and then cast invisible invisibility on yourself to make yourself invisible to anything including true sight.

Beorn080
2010-03-09, 12:13 AM
Wouldn't Invisible Invisiblity make you invisible only to creatures with true sight?

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-09, 12:18 AM
insibile obscuring mist is invisinble to anyone but those with true sight.
It is the ultimate anti true sight, those with true sight see the obscuring mist, those without it see through it fine.

Also, cast invsibility and then cast invisible invisibility on yourself to make yourself invisible to anything including true sight.

I'm willing to concede that one could interpret it the first way, though you lack a compelling argument.

Your second statement makes no sense.

Consider as a hypothetical example, that normal creatures cannot see the color red. So you paint yourself red. Now they can't see you. But there are a few creatures that can.

So you paint yourself red again.

How would this stop the creature from seeing you?

Invisibility, regardless of the source, is a defined status in D&D. If a creature can see invisibility, they can see invisibility. Period. Moreover, the feat specifically says that creatures that can see invisible can see the spell's manifestation normally.

I must conclude that you are a troll and can only be slain with acid or fire.


Wouldn't Invisible Invisiblity make you invisible only to creatures with true sight?

See above.

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Defiant
2010-03-09, 12:23 AM
Wouldn't Invisible Invisiblity make you invisible only to creatures with true sight?

Yes.

But since they have true sight, they can see through that invisibility. It would be hilarious!

taltamir
2010-03-09, 12:37 AM
Consider as a hypothetical example, that normal creatures cannot see the color red. So you paint yourself red. Now they can't see you. But there are a few creatures that can.

So you paint yourself red again.
You mean invisible red on the second time :)

HunterOfJello
2010-03-09, 02:17 AM
What's the most ridiculous combination of a spell and the Invisible Spell feat?

2xMachina
2010-03-09, 03:05 AM
Invisible Raise Dead on party.

Permanent Greater Invisibility for all! Or maybe it makes you look like zombies...

taltamir
2010-03-09, 06:50 AM
what does invisible awaken do?

Volkov
2010-03-09, 06:56 AM
I think Invisible Spell Shapechange would make the already broken spell even more cheesy.

Shapechange was always sort of underwhelming to me. I can't take the form of an awesome looking colossal red dragon, but I can take the form of this dumb looking, bald headed, greyskinned guy in a toga.

Jack_Simth
2010-03-09, 07:40 AM
Invisible Raise Dead on party.

Permanent Greater Invisibility for all! Or maybe it makes you look like zombies...
Nah, you want an Invisible True Resurrection spell. See, Raise Dead requires the body - True Resurrection doesn't. So you end up with the invisible man - book version, where he's invisible, but the stuff he's wearing isn't (which can be fixed with Invisibility and Permanency, but gets VERY expensive).

taltamir
2010-03-09, 07:55 AM
Nah, you want an Invisible True Resurrection spell. See, Raise Dead requires the body - True Resurrection doesn't. So you end up with the invisible man - book version, where he's invisible, but the stuff he's wearing isn't (which can be fixed with Invisibility and Permanency, but gets VERY expensive).

or walk around naked...

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-09, 08:10 AM
Shapechange was always sort of underwhelming to me. I can't take the form of an awesome looking colossal red dragon, but I can take the form of this dumb looking, bald headed, greyskinned guy in a toga.

Ah, yes, I'm most apologetic that the Current level 1-9 spell system doesn't cover CR 26 creatures. Note that you CAN turn into a Huge Red dragon. If that's not awesome enough, gain access to Expansion, and use it to grow two size categories to colossal.

That, or if you want to expand the spell framework to allow for your typical ECL 50-250 game, I recommend you use the epic spell framework, which is more suited to what you're looking for.

Also, you CAN turn into a Balor or a Pit Fiend, which, IIRC, is one of your personal crushes.

Tyndmyr
2010-03-09, 01:00 PM
What's the most ridiculous combination of a spell and the Invisible Spell feat?

Invisible Prismatic Wall. Just leave them around towns for fun.

Lysander
2010-03-09, 01:35 PM
That's actually a standard tactic. Since it's invisible, it doesn't actually impair the vision of anyone in the radius (vision impairment is based on the fog that's in the way)... unless they have see invisibility or true seeing. at high levels, quite a bit has see invisibility, and so you can hit it with impunity while they try and find you.

Actually the invisible mist to block True Sight tactic doesn't work, because it reveals invisible creatures and objects as translucent. They'd see the mist but they could also see through it:


Such creatures are visible to you as translucent shapes, allowing you easily to discern the difference between visible, invisible, and ethereal creatures.

2xMachina
2010-03-09, 01:46 PM
That's just for See Invisible.

True Seeing:


You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things.

If 'normally' isn't translucent, they ought to see the mist as normal.

Seeing through illusions also mean they'll see nothing/shadows? on a Shadow Wall of Stone, and will walk smack into it without knowing it's existence.

Jack_Simth
2010-03-09, 05:23 PM
or walk around naked...
That's... not so much a fix, as a replacement problem.

Calimehter
2010-03-09, 05:28 PM
What's the most ridiculous combination of a spell and the Invisible Spell feat?

Silent Image comes to mind . . .

[Edit] - actually, after I posted that, I thought it might be an interesting way to communicate with a teammate (or play mind games with an enemy) who had See Invisibility or True Seeing up and running. Its still a little ridiculous, though. :smalltongue:

Jack_Simth
2010-03-09, 05:37 PM
Silent Image comes to mind . . .

[Edit] - actually, after I posted that, I thought it might be an interesting way to communicate with a teammate (or play mind games with an enemy) who had See Invisibility or True Seeing up and running. Its still a little ridiculous, though. :smalltongue:
Oh, it is a fun way to toy with the head of a Wizard who always keeps See Invisibility running. Wizard sees something, nobody else does. Wizard checks, sees illusion magic, and assumes the invisible image is someone spying. Wizard gets really paranoid, zaps away with spell of choice... and there's nothing there. (You will, of course, want to make use of Silent Spell, Still Spell, and Eschew Materials to avoid giving away that you're the caster, and what the spell is). Everyone else sees the wizard zapping thin air.

Rainbownaga
2010-03-09, 05:51 PM
I know it isn't as fun, but I'd houserule an invisible summoning or creation spell as masking the sudden appearance. That is, you don't notice that the wolf suddenly appeared; you could cast a wall of stone directly in front of someone and they wouldn't realise that it hadn't always been there.

Invisible invisible would actually be useful because the creature watching you wouldn't know what happened to you; you didn't suddenly dissapear, you just stopped being there.

The Shadowmind
2010-03-09, 06:02 PM
An invisible stronghold made out invisible walls of iron/stone, with an an invisible moat(appears to be a trench), guarded by invisible bound summoned creatures.:smallbiggrin:

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-09, 06:29 PM
No, you want a real funny prank?

Invisible Wall of iron in doorway.
Ironguard spell.

Run through, laugh as people follow and break their nose.

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-10, 12:44 AM
I know it isn't as fun, but I'd houserule an invisible summoning or creation spell as masking the sudden appearance. That is, you don't notice that the wolf suddenly appeared; you could cast a wall of stone directly in front of someone and they wouldn't realise that it hadn't always been there.

Invisible invisible would actually be useful because the creature watching you wouldn't know what happened to you; you didn't suddenly dissapear, you just stopped being there.

I don't think that's a houserule, but a proper interpretation of the RAW.

So I agree with this! "Wait... where'd that guy go that I was just looking at?"

The thing is, the feat mentions that components are still visible so they might see you waving your hands about, etc.

Seeing through illusions also mean they'll see nothing/shadows? on a Shadow Wall of Stone, and will walk smack into it without knowing it's existence.

IIRC, a character that recognizes or sees through an illusion views it as a dim outline. They can still make out what the illusion is meant to be, but it doesn't hinder their view of what's actually there.
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taltamir
2010-03-10, 03:45 AM
An invisible stronghold made out invisible walls of iron/stone, with an an invisible moat(appears to be a trench), guarded by invisible bound summoned creatures.:smallbiggrin:

i prefer my bedroom walls to be opaque thank you very much :P

magic9mushroom
2010-03-10, 06:50 AM
What's the most ridiculous combination of a spell and the Invisible Spell feat?


Invisible Prismatic Wall. Just leave them around towns for fun.

This. They have no way of distinguishing it from some other sort of LoE-blocker (like Dispelling Screen) until they walk into it and must make 4 saves vs. lose (or suck in 1 case if they have Plane Shift themselves). For added fun, if the saves they fail are either vs. death or vs. petrification, they get disintegrated by violet, making them appear to disappear.

Hmm, this'd make an awesome trap, Face of the Great Green Devil-style. Free Ice Cream!

hewhosaysfish
2010-03-10, 07:15 AM
An invisible stronghold made out invisible walls of iron/stone, with an an invisible moat(appears to be a trench), guarded by invisible bound summoned creatures.:smallbiggrin:

All inside the demi-plane create by an invisuble genesis. :smallbiggrin:

If I cast an invisible teleport on someone else, do they see the location they arrive at? Do they still see the location they left? Do they suddenly go blind? Does the entire universe become transparent to them, allowing them to see what is behind/outside it?
Do other people still see them at the location they just left?

magic9mushroom
2010-03-10, 07:27 AM
All inside the demi-plane create by an invisuble genesis. :smallbiggrin:

If I cast an invisible teleport on someone else, do they see the location they arrive at? Do they still see the location they left? Do they suddenly go blind? Does the entire universe become transparent to them, allowing them to see what is behind/outside it?
Do other people still see them at the location they just left?

They see into the Far Realm and it explodes out of their head, screwing up time and preventing this situation from occurring in the first place.

hewhosaysfish
2010-03-10, 07:41 AM
Invisible regeneration!
I would totally chop off my (character's) hand just to get that cast!

magic9mushroom
2010-03-10, 07:44 AM
Invisible regeneration!
I would totally chop off my (character's) hand just to get that cast!

Hmm, I'm not sure if there are rules for the kinaesthetic sense in D&D. If there aren't, you could have problems.

taltamir
2010-03-10, 07:36 PM
I would say an invisible teleport means that the "spell" is invisible, not its result.
Same for invisible wall of iron and invisible regeneration and invisible true res.
aka, if true res has some sparkles and you coming back to life, invisible true res has you coming back to life without the sparkles, but you are still totally visible.

invisible prismatic wall will work though, because the wall itself is the magic (unlike wall of iron/stone which creates walls of mundane materials)

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-10, 08:03 PM
Would an Invisible Hypnotic Pattern still hypnotize?