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Jerthanis
2010-03-08, 07:08 PM
I don't really play a lot of 3.5 D&D anymore, but can anyone give me a comprehensive list of the things which become broken when you allow iterative attacks while using only a Standard action?

That is, assuming charges are special standard actions which grant a single attack, would anything break about the game if you let people Move->Full Attack?

Eldariel
2010-03-08, 07:12 PM
Alright, here's the whole list:




There. Not so bad, really. In fact, I'd argue that's how it shoulda been all along. I guess someone could argue it breaks skirmish, but then a 1000 bears would beat him senseless in an attempt to beat some sense into him.

Serenity
2010-03-08, 07:13 PM
Well, the only thing that strikes me is that it cuts both ways--the fighters will have exceedingly little protection against suffering full attacks from dragons and the like.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-03-08, 07:15 PM
My first response to the title was Shadow Pounce + Standard-action teleportation.

Rezby
2010-03-08, 07:15 PM
If you have Pounce, you can do a charge then a full attack. Easiest way to get pounce? take the Feral template, from Savage Species. Its a very broken template, in that its over-powered, for only a single +1 LA. Most DM's who know what they're doing don't allow it.

AmberVael
2010-03-08, 07:20 PM
I don't really play a lot of 3.5 D&D anymore, but can anyone give me a comprehensive list of the things which become broken when you allow iterative attacks while using only a Standard action?

That is, assuming charges are special standard actions which grant a single attack, would anything break about the game if you let people Move->Full Attack?

Well, Cunning Surge becomes even scarier than it already was. I mean... with this variant, the Factotum could say "yeah, that's right, eat seven full attacks on the first turn of combat, while you're flat footed."

I'm sure there is far worse you could do, but still, that picture is a little frightening.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-03-08, 07:21 PM
In my experience, taking a Barbarian level is notably more convenient than losing 4 Int.

I'd have to echo Serenity's comment: this would buff monsters too. It's relatively easy for a PC to pick up move/attack (barbarian level, or feral, or many other options). The same ability is less common on many monsters. Giving such an ability to those monsters may cause the CR system to go a bit more out of whack.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-08, 07:22 PM
If you have Pounce, you can do a charge then a full attack. Easiest way to get pounce? take the Feral template, from Savage Species. Its a very broken template, in that its over-powered, for only a single +1 LA. Most DM's who know what they're doing don't allow it.

Barbarian 1>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Feral. Why lose the BAB and HD when you can also get a better Fort save (and an extra attack with Whirling Frenzy!).



One of my House Rules is that Weapon Mastery turns the Attack Action into an Immediate action, and Weapon Supremacy turns the Full Attack action into a Move action. Makes Fighter 18 slightly more interesting.

AmberVael
2010-03-08, 07:29 PM
Barbarian 1>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Feral. Why lose the BAB and HD when you can also get a better Fort save (and an extra attack with Whirling Frenzy!).

The +1 bonus of BAB is replaced by an increased strength. This does mean your iterative attack progression comes one level later, but that's not really a large issue.

The missing HP will be replaced pretty quickly (by around level 6, they'll be even). From then on out, the feral creature will probably do better, in fact.

They also get increased land speed not reliant on armor type (nice when you have pounce), natural armor, a bunch of special abilities (including fast healing).

It has a lot going for it. In some ways, yeah, the Barbarian may be better- it might be slightly safer to be the Barbarian and not feral... but Feral can kick some serious butt.

Gametime
2010-03-08, 07:30 PM
Barbarian 1>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Feral. Why lose the BAB and HD when you can also get a better Fort save (and an extra attack with Whirling Frenzy!).



One of my House Rules is that Weapon Mastery turns the Attack Action into an Immediate action, and Weapon Supremacy turns the Full Attack action into a Move action. Makes Fighter 18 slightly more interesting.

Boy, would I like to try Jack B. Quick with that houserule.

Defiant
2010-03-08, 07:31 PM
Barbarian 1>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Feral. Why lose the BAB and HD when you can also get a better Fort save (and an extra attack with Whirling Frenzy!).



One of my House Rules is that Weapon Mastery turns the Attack Action into an Immediate action, and Weapon Supremacy turns the Full Attack action into a Move action. Makes Fighter 18 slightly more interesting.

Barbarian 1 does not give pounce

Eldariel
2010-03-08, 07:32 PM
Barbarian 1 does not give pounce

The irony...

EDIT: Oh yeah, contents? Feral abilities are actually based off your racial HD, so PCs are practically never getting Pounce off it. Barbarian 1, on the other hand, gives just about every PC just that.

AmberVael
2010-03-08, 07:32 PM
Barbarian 1 does not give pounce

There's a variant that does. Lion Totem Barbarian from Complete Champion (page 46).

Edit: And it never specifies "racial" hit dice in the feral template anywhere. Just hit dice.

BenTheJester
2010-03-08, 07:47 PM
Alright, here's the whole list:




{Scrubbed}

On top of my head, Belt of Battle does this

I think there are some boots who let you move as a swift action too

Swiftblade gets the 3.0 haste at a point too(meaning you can full attack then take either a move or standard action)

TheCountAlucard
2010-03-08, 07:50 PM
Only thing about taking a level of Barbarian is that you can't then buy off that level of Barbarian.

lsfreak
2010-03-08, 07:50 PM
{Scrubbed}

I'm pretty sure Eldariel isn't one to do that kind of thing in a hostile sort of way. He was illustrating his point, not being condescending.

Also: I agree. My preference is allowing the 20/15/10/5 routine to work as a standard action, and a 20/15/15/15 as a full-round action. Pounce now lets you make a standard attack at the end of a charge, rather than the full-round version.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-03-08, 07:51 PM
would anything break about the game if you let people Move->Full Attack?

Alright, here's the whole list:
(blanktext)

...


{Scrubbed}
Eldariel meant that nothing would break about the game. He did not mean that there were no ways to obtain standard-action full-attacks. And even if he was talking about methods to obtain standard-action full-attacks, how was his post in any way reminiscent of a jerk?

Superglucose
2010-03-08, 07:52 PM
{scrubbed}
I haven't decided whether you're being sarcastic or not. Mostly because I and anyone who's seen Eladriel post knows that he's making a joke out of it and fairly well qualified to make such an assertion. Finding humor doesn't make one a jerk, really, so I have to wonder what you're trying to say?

In any case, I agree with Eladriel. It seems to just make sense to allow iteratives on a standard action attack.

faceroll
2010-03-08, 07:54 PM
If you have Pounce, you can do a charge then a full attack. Easiest way to get pounce? take the Feral template, from Savage Species. Its a very broken template, in that its over-powered, for only a single +1 LA. Most DM's who know what they're doing don't allow it.

You only get pounce if you have 4 or more racial hitdice, though.

AmberVael
2010-03-08, 07:54 PM
Yeah, just to get back on topic, I have always thought this variant made sense. There are very few things which might be a little overpowered by it- frankly, you're still having to watch the Wizard's spells more than you are the fighter's attacks.

^: Again, it never specifies racial hit dice.

Eldariel
2010-03-08, 07:55 PM
Edit: And it never specifies "racial" hit dice in the feral template anywhere. Just hit dice.

"It gains special abilities indicated in the row corresponding to its monster Hit Dice..."

You can certainly read it in another way, but it seems to me like that excludes class-based HD.


{Scrubbed}

As other said, I was talking (or rather, not talking) about standard action full attacks breaking the game, since that's his question. And yes, there are things that allow moving and full attacking. I don't see a question to that effect in the OP though.

EDIT: Thanks to all the ninjas.

BenTheJester
2010-03-08, 07:59 PM
"It gains special abilities indicated in the row corresponding to its monster Hit Dice..."

You can certainly read it in another way, but it seems to me like that excludes class-based HD.



As other said, I was talking (or rather, not talking) about standard action full attacks breaking the game, since that's his question. And yes, there are things that allow moving and full attacking. I don't see a question to that effect in the OP though.

EDIT: Thanks to all the ninjas.

I apologize, I misunderstood.

AmberVael
2010-03-08, 08:01 PM
"It gains special abilities indicated in the row corresponding to its monster Hit Dice..."

You can certainly read it in another way, but it seems to me like that excludes class-based HD.

That's an interesting quote, and that doesn't appear to line up with Savage Species. I'm looking at my copy at this moment...

Oh hey, maybe it's because I'm looking at Special Qualities and not special attacks. Huh, that's kind of odd, really.

It seems pretty weird that they say monster hit dice though. I mean, what they intend is pretty obvious, but that's not wording I'm familiar with. Do they use that anywhere else?

It also seems odd that they wouldn't specify "monster hit dice" for the same HD based special qualities.

I think I'm just going to write it off as a shoddy job like I normally do.

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-08, 08:10 PM
Lion-Totem Barbarian 1 gives rage 1/day, which is nice as well.

While feral does make mention of 'monster hit dice', I don't believe the term is defined. The could have saved us all by using 'racial hit dice or hit dice gained through advancement in the monster classes presented in this book', but they didn't. RAI seems to be that a feral creature only gains those abilities based on RHD which makes it a significantly weaker template for players and thus justifying its low +LA (though I still wouldn't want to run into a feral dragon) (Can't be added to a dragon. Not going to stop me as a DM though :belkar:)

Unless the term 'monster hit dice' is defined somewhere, I'm going to go out on a limb and say by RAW, class hit dice count.

Back on topic: I like the idea of the weapon supremacy chain reducing the action for attacks. Melee should get some nice things.

As for breaking the game: I don't think it will. CR will need to be adjusted slightly though.

Edit: Sort-of ninja'd

obnoxious
sig

Curmudgeon
2010-03-08, 08:22 PM
It seems pretty weird that they say monster hit dice though. I mean, what they intend is pretty obvious, but that's not wording I'm familiar with. Do they use that anywhere else? Actually Savage Species use the term "monster hit dice" a lot -- but they never exactly define it. The closest they come is on page 11:
Because monsters are characters too, the base creature of a monster character gains skill points and feats in much the same way a standard-race character does. I'm guessing "base creature HD" means the same as racial HD.

It also seems odd that they wouldn't specify "monster hit dice" for the same HD based special qualities.
As written Feral will only give Pounce with your monster racial HD, but you'll get darkvision and fast healing from total HD.

krossbow
2010-03-08, 08:57 PM
the only issue that i see is that it means that charging damage might actually become more ridiculous (i understand that it lets melee keep up somewhat in an unfair world; i just think it attacks a symptom and leaves the problem alone)

Eldariel
2010-03-08, 09:00 PM
the only issue that i see is that it means that charging damage might actually become more ridiculous (i understand that it lets melee keep up somewhat in an unfair world; i just think it attacks a symptom and leaves the problem alone)

As long as you limit charge multipliers on the first attack on charge, it's really all fine. Pounce + Shock Trooper + Leap Attack or Spirited Charge (along with Valorous, Headlong Charge and such but let's face it, those shouldn't exist) outpaces all other sources of damage if, and only if, you get to use all the bonuses on the iteratives too. Otherwise it merely makes charging a viable alternative with big returns and big costs.

lsfreak
2010-03-08, 09:04 PM
the only issue that i see is that it means that charging damage might actually become more ridiculous (i understand that it lets melee keep up somewhat in an unfair world; i just think it attacks a symptom and leaves the problem alone)

Charging is based completely around pounce... making a full attack a standard action changes nothing, really. If anything, it might make it less powerful, because a) you no longer have to charge->pounce to get decent damage, and b) everyone's not dipping barbarian and getting rage in order to get pounce.

krossbow
2010-03-08, 09:13 PM
Charging is based completely around pounce... making a full attack a standard action changes nothing, really. If anything, it might make it less powerful, because a) you no longer have to charge->pounce to get decent damage, and b) everyone's not dipping barbarian and getting rage in order to get pounce.


if this sounds anti-melee, stop me, its just that i'm against uber-charging in general. Its too much of a one trick pony. The fact that this more or less makes everyone an ubercharger right out of the box is my issue with it.

I'm all for helping melee, but i think that ubercharging is just too cheesy. there has to be other ways to fix the system.

Ravens_cry
2010-03-08, 09:17 PM
This would really break my verisimilitude. Now, I might houserule a single iterative attack on standard actions per three iterative attacks on a full attack, therefore starting at 16th level for full BAB. But it makes no sense that after moving 20 feet you could make the same amount off attacks as you would if you stood still and attacked, doing the same amount of attack in less time.
Sorry, I don't like this idea.

Pluto
2010-03-08, 09:24 PM
I don't really play a lot of 3.5 D&D anymore, but can anyone give me a comprehensive list of the things which become broken when you allow iterative attacks while using only a Standard action?
The only thing I can think of is that Rogues are much more likely to get full attacks while flanking.

That isn't a problem at all in high-optimization groups. In fact, it probably should be that way.

But if the Wizard's casting Fireball for 9d6 and the Sword & Board Fighter's dealing 2d8+14 while the Rogue TWF's for 24d6, there very well could be a problem.

lsfreak
2010-03-08, 09:54 PM
Its too much of a one trick pony.
Aren't all melee? :smalltongue:

The fact that this more or less makes everyone an ubercharger right out of the box is my issue with it.
Less an ubercharger right out of the box, and more they now have the ability to both position and attack. They'll still need a lot to make themselves an ubercharger by any means. And by a lot, I suppose I mean 'everything that an ubercharger needs, minus Pounce'

This would really break my verisimilitude. Now, I might houserule a single iterative attack on standard actions per three iterative attacks on a full attack, therefore starting at 16th level for full BAB. But it makes no sense that after moving 20 feet you could make the same amount off attacks as you would if you stood still and attacked, doing the same amount of attack in less time.
That's why I do the 20/15/10/5 versus 20/15/15/15. A standard attack is making a number of attacks in a shorter period of time, and so your aim is worse. By taking a full-round action, your aim is better (plus it's assumed that there are strikes in between the ones you actually roll for, hits that you know aren't going to really do anything except open your enemy up for an attack that you DO roll for).

And when bringing time constraints into it, keep in mind we already have a system where you might move 60 feet and only get one attack in, or thanks to Pounce, move 60 feet and then get 10 attacks in. Not to mention as BAB increases, you already get more attacks in the same period of time, drastically more thanks to TWF + haste effects. It strains verisimilitude already, it's just that you're used to that stretch and so you ignore it.

Eldariel
2010-03-08, 10:07 PM
This would really break my verisimilitude. Now, I might houserule a single iterative attack on standard actions per three iterative attacks on a full attack, therefore starting at 16th level for full BAB. But it makes no sense that after moving 20 feet you could make the same amount off attacks as you would if you stood still and attacked, doing the same amount of attack in less time.
Sorry, I don't like this idea.

Hum, but already on level 1, you gain the same amount of attacks after and before moving. How is this any different? I don't really see the problem here; sure, you have time for little less, but how do you model attacks per round, for example? And how come 1 chance of damage in 6 seconds is the same as 1 chance of damage in 3 seconds?

If anything, the change would improve verisimilitude since as it stands, you always are able to deal damage exactly once in 3 seconds, while the amount of times you can deal damage in 6 ranges from 1 to 4 depending on your skill.


Balance-wise, punishing movement is a bad idea. It makes for standstill fights and removes warriors' mobility, meaning casters who cast and move are never subjected to full attacks. Besides, the combat is an abstraction. When you move, you're effectively doing the attacks while following up the opponent. It's just an issue of the turn-based model that you have to "make up for the distance" each round. Hell, this goes a long way towards making Monks suck a little less.

Saintheart
2010-03-08, 10:15 PM
Just to put one other thought in there: about as close as you can get to moving and laying out a full attack is the following two options: Wolf Pack Tactics, a stance from ToB, or the Dervish Dance class feature for the Dervish from Complete Warrior.

Both of these options, however, force movement as part of the full attack: 5 feet between each iterative attack in the case of the stance, or at least 5 feet in the case of the Dervish Dance.

Eldariel
2010-03-08, 10:21 PM
Just to put one other thought in there: about as close as you can get to moving and laying out a full attack is the following two options: Wolf Pack Tactics, a stance from ToB, or the Dervish Dance class feature for the Dervish from Complete Warrior.

Both of these options, however, force movement as part of the full attack: 5 feet between each iterative attack in the case of the stance, or at least 5 feet in the case of the Dervish Dance.

We could also write out a short list of:
- Pounce (Barbarian, maneuver, power, spell)
- Shadow Pounce (Telflammar Shadowlord, Crinti Shadow Marauder) + Any Action Teleportation
- Travel Devotion (Feat, Su)
- Maneuvers (e.g.; Quicksilver Motion, Shadow Blink, Sudden Leap, etc.)
- Various items (e.g. Belt of Battle, Anklets of Translocation, Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker)
- Abrupt Jaunt (ACF, Su)
- Swift Action Spells & Powers (Psionic DD, Teleport, Greater Teleport, Slide, Dimension Hop, etc.)

Now that we are done, could we get back to the topic?

EDIT: Oh, honorary mentions go to 10' steps (DC40 Tumble, Sparring Dummy of the Master + Monk) and Press the Advantage-stance, especially combined (20' steps!)

Pluto
2010-03-08, 10:21 PM
Just to put one other thought in there: about as close as you can get to moving and laying out a full attack is the following two options: Wolf Pack Tactics, a stance from ToB, or the Dervish Dance class feature for the Dervish from Complete Warrior.
I think a Cleric dip for 3+ uses of Travel Devotion and another domain ability fits the bill a bit better than either of those. It straight-out gives the ability to move and attack. Even it's hardly broken in most circumstances.

Less an ubercharger right out of the box, and more they now have the ability to both position and attack. They'll still need a lot to make themselves an ubercharger by any means. And by a lot, I suppose I mean 'everything that an ubercharger needs, minus Pounce'They'd even still need pounce. So yeah, nothing really changes there.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-08, 10:43 PM
The +1 bonus of BAB is replaced by an increased strength. This does mean your iterative attack progression comes one level later, but that's not really a large issue.

And Barb 1 gives an equal Str bonus. And a Con or Dex bonus. IF you take a feat, you get to use that more. Or you just sub out Rage for Berserker Strength (ick).


The missing HP will be replaced pretty quickly (by around level 6, they'll be even). From then on out, the feral creature will probably do better, in fact.

1d12+Con+Whatever else VS +2 Con score.


They also get increased land speed not reliant on armor type (nice when you have pounce), natural armor, a bunch of special abilities (including fast healing).

And the Barbarian could get Pounce that gives no **** about anything else or the increased land speed. I'll give you this one.


It has a lot going for it. In some ways, yeah, the Barbarian may be better- it might be slightly safer to be the Barbarian and not feral... but Feral can kick some serious butt.

Skill Points are another reason to take Barbarian over Feral. Oh, and MAD (Feral eats some Int IIRC).

Jerthanis
2010-03-09, 01:57 AM
The Monster issue is one I definitely didn't think of. That does definitely make monsters like Hydra and Dragons absurdly dangerous. Maybe limit it to 3 attacks?

The only thing I could definitively think of as potentially broken from a player perspective was Scouts, but I think I once saw a numbers breakdown with a Scout who had Improved Greater Manyshot still just keeping pace with average damage for level 12, so I can't say that's definitively 'broken'

TheCountAlucard
2010-03-09, 02:14 AM
The Monster issue is one I definitely didn't think of. That does definitely make monsters like Hydra and Dragons absurdly dangerous. Maybe limit it to 3 attacks?Err, Hydra can already make (its head count) attacks without using a full attack. Making full attacks on a standard action actually neither helps nor hinders it.

Rezby
2010-03-09, 02:14 AM
I'm pretty sure that for all templates, when they mention abilities or qualities based off of HD, they mean overall HD, including class-based ones. At least that's how I've been playing with the templates and my DM's never said anything about it.

Feral eats 2 dex and 4 int, (but lets you have a minimum of 2), and gives you 4 str and 2 con and wis. It also gives you darkvision and fast healing. Also special attacks, nat ac, speed boost, claws. only 1 LA.

But yeah, I had forgotten Pounce only comes once you reach 4th HD. But no one really expects to be able to move and still do a full attack at 1st, or even 2nd level.

Also what variation of Barbarian gives you pounce?

Eldariel
2010-03-09, 02:23 AM
I'm pretty sure that for all templates, when they mention abilities or qualities based off of HD, they mean overall HD, including class-based ones. At least that's how I've been playing with the templates and my DM's never said anything about it.

Except in this case where the template itself uses wording "Monster HD", like with Feral.


But yeah, I had forgotten Pounce only comes once you reach 4th HD. But no one really expects to be able to move and still do a full attack at 1st, or even 2nd level.

It's pretty important if you TWF or Whirling Frenzy or similars (or if you were a Monk, but then your mistake was being a Monk...).


Also what variation of Barbarian gives you pounce?

Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian from Complete Champion.

Rezby
2010-03-09, 02:30 AM
To quote Savage Species, "Special Attacks: A feral creature gains additional special attacks depending on its Hit Dice, as shown on the table below. It gains the special attacks indicated in the row corresponding to its monster Hit Dice, plus all those in previous rows. If the base creature possesses a duplicate ability, the feral creature uses whichever version of the ability is better."

Since it mentions both monstrous and plain Hit Dice, you could interpret it to be either. At this point, its DM's word, since the RAW isn't clear. Though if you're asking the DM to clarify something from the Feral template...

Ah, thanks for that. Now I understand what my old DM meant when he said spirit totem barbarian (my previous understanding had been that he meant a multi-class Totemist/Barbarian... which would be silly and redundant).

Sophismata
2010-03-09, 02:36 AM
Since it mentions both monstrous and plain Hit Dice, you could interpret it to be either. At this point, its DM's word, since the RAW isn't clear. Though if you're asking the DM to clarify something from the Feral template...

I'd say that mentioning both is pretty damning evidence that they are different things.

Runestar
2010-03-09, 02:45 AM
We can already make a full attack as a standard action.

MIC has this pair of boots which lets you charge as a standard action.

Barb1 gives pounce, which lets you make a full attack on a charge...:smallcool:

Eldariel
2010-03-09, 02:51 AM
MIC has this pair of boots which lets you charge as a standard action.

Unfortunately tho, they take a Swift Action to activate for that purpose. Real pity; they'd be real gems otherwise. Though they're still useful, of course.

2xMachina
2010-03-09, 03:30 AM
I'd say that mentioning both is pretty damning evidence that they are different things.

I'd say that mentioning both is pretty damning evidence that they are the same things.

A=B
A=C

Where A = special attacks, B= Hit Dice, C= Monster Hit Dice.

B=C? I'd say yes.

Sophismata
2010-03-09, 03:34 AM
B=C? I'd say yes.

I'm not convinced, but I can see where you're coming from.

2xMachina
2010-03-09, 03:58 AM
But yeah, I agree. Probably sloppy editing, and I'm not sure 3.0 has the RHD and HD term being different defined yet.

Roderick_BR
2010-03-09, 07:36 AM
One of my House Rules is that Weapon Mastery turns the Attack Action into an Immediate action, and Weapon Supremacy turns the Full Attack action into a Move action. Makes Fighter 18 slightly more interesting.
Wow, I like it, I like a lot. Makes high level fighters actually good. It doesn't even need to be a move action, it being a default action is good enough.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-09, 12:32 PM
Wow, I like it, I like a lot. Makes high level fighters actually good. It doesn't even need to be a move action, it being a default action is good enough.

I like making it a Move action, as it makes the Belt of Battle that much more useful for a Fighter (who has little use for his Swift/Immediate as is). Granted, it makes an OP'ed item even better, but only if the character has Weapon Supremacy (which means either Fighter 18 or Warblade 16/Fighter 2).

DragoonWraith
2010-03-09, 12:39 PM
Huh, I'm not familiar with Weapon Supremacy, but... if it's a Fighter 18 thing, how can a Warblade 16/Fighter 2 get it? He'd count as a Fighter 16, IIRC, as his Warblade levels minus 2 count as Fighter levels. He'd have to be Warblade 16/Fighter 4, at which point he should just be Warblade 20... Although I guess he doesn't get a feat at 20, which would mean Warblade 18/Fighter 2 or Warblade 19/Fighter 1. Missing Dual Stance hurts a lot though.

Tyndmyr
2010-03-09, 12:47 PM
Well, Cunning Surge becomes even scarier than it already was. I mean... with this variant, the Factotum could say "yeah, that's right, eat seven full attacks on the first turn of combat, while you're flat footed."

I'm sure there is far worse you could do, but still, that picture is a little frightening.

White Raven Tactics?

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-09, 12:56 PM
Huh, I'm not familiar with Weapon Supremacy, but... if it's a Fighter 18 thing, how can a Warblade 16/Fighter 2 get it? He'd count as a Fighter 16, IIRC, as his Warblade levels minus 2 count as Fighter levels. He'd have to be Warblade 16/Fighter 4, at which point he should just be Warblade 20... Although I guess he doesn't get a feat at 20, which would mean Warblade 18/Fighter 2 or Warblade 19/Fighter 1. Missing Dual Stance hurts a lot though.

My bad, it's Warblade 19/Fighter 1. It's just a house rule anyway.

Person_Man
2010-03-09, 01:47 PM
Ways to get Pounce or Free Movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358)

As you can see, there are a very large number of ways to get a full attack every round without a house rule. I can think of six possible ways to abuse your proposed house rule:

Factotum: Cunning Surge to gain an extra Standard Action.
Celerity: Immediate Action spell to gain an extra Standard Action.
Shadow Pounce: Semi-obscure PrC ability, allows a full attack when you use Dimension Door. More easily abusable with the proposed house rule.
Belt of Battle: Extra standard action.
Threefold Mask of the Chimera: Extra Standard Action.
and the Demoralize rules
Move Action abuse: This is the big one. Because you can use a Standard Action for a full attack, your Move action becomes a lot more valuable. Move actions can be used to Demoralize, activate certain magic items, psionic powers, etc. So now instead of using Pounce, the optimal strategy will be to use Hustle or Travel Devotion, use a Move action special ability, then make a full attack. It helps balance melee builds compared to blasters and some Batman Wizard tactics, but makes melee builds even less powerful compared to CoDzilla, Gish, and thrown weapon builds.

Rainbownaga
2010-03-09, 06:18 PM
Full attack as a standard action (rather than a charge) helps monks actually use their two main class features together.

Therefore it is horribly broken and should never be used because monks aren't allowed to have nice things.

tyckspoon
2010-03-09, 07:22 PM
Ah, thanks for that. Now I understand what my old DM meant when he said spirit totem barbarian (my previous understanding had been that he meant a multi-class Totemist/Barbarian... which would be silly and redundant).

It's actually a really solid combination for a natural-weapons focused totemist. There's even a prestige class specifically to help it along a little bit more by advancing soulbinding, your rages/day, and giving you more essentia when you rage. It's a little feat intensive, but a straightforward build might include-
Barbarian 1+, Whirling Frenzy and Pounce ACFs
Totemist, naturally
Totem Rager

Improved Unarmed Strike, Cobalt Rage, Double Chakra (Totem), Shape Soulmeld (Thunderstep Boots) feats. Multiattack/Improved Multiattack to taste.

Resulting in a charging attack of: Standard iterative attack sequence +1 (Unarmed Strikes + Whirling), 4 claws (Girallon Arms bound to totem, 4 claws available because Unarmed Strikes do not use hands), and 1 bite (any of four or five soulmelds bound to Totem), all inflicting 1/2 Str + (1+x)d4 + x, where X is the amount of essentia you can invest in your Cobalt Rage and Thunderstep Boots. Plus once you have enough binds to bind the Boots every attack you hit with while charging forces a save against stunning, which is based on your high Constitution.. and you're making 8-10 attacks, so the odds are on your side.

/This has been tonight's Indigo Tangent.