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Cisturn
2010-03-08, 09:37 PM
So a friend of mine recently ditched her generic rogue elf so she could play something more fun she decided on level 5 child sorceress, we statted her at Str 11, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 15, Wis 13, Cha 19. And i was wondering what kind of feats she should take. She's an orphan that lives in the streets, but she's still a hyper active little kid, the player is more concerned with flavor than optimization. She get's three feats and beyond Run, and possible Combat Reflexes (i think it would be funny) I'm not really sure what she should take. Any ideas playgrounders?

Dr.Epic
2010-03-08, 09:41 PM
Are you even allowed to play a child in D&D? I not entirely sure but aren't there weird stat and other modifiers you have to take or something (please cite book where I can find this)?

snoopy13a
2010-03-08, 09:42 PM
A street urchin could have the deft hands feat and the sleight of hand skill in order to pick pockets.

Claudius Maximus
2010-03-08, 09:53 PM
Are you even allowed to play a child in D&D? I not entirely sure but aren't there weird stat and other modifiers you have to take or something (please cite book where I can find this)?

Not in 3.5, to the extent of my knowledge.

There are rules for child characters in D20 Modern, but I don't remember if they were any good or if they would transfer well to D&D.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-08, 10:07 PM
Not in 3.5, to the extent of my knowledge.

There are rules for child characters in D20 Modern, but I don't remember if they were any good or if they would transfer well to D&D.

Since it's essentially the same system the rules for D20 modern children should port just fine. I don't remember what they were, exactly, myself but I don't remember them being too bad.

Jack_Simth
2010-03-08, 10:09 PM
Are you even allowed to play a child in D&D? I not entirely sure but aren't there weird stat and other modifiers you have to take or something (please cite book where I can find this)?

Not specifically; but it could very well just be a reflavored halfling or gnome.

deuxhero
2010-03-08, 10:11 PM
I thought D20 Modern's approach was "No classes levels, go splat if attacked", not too useful for a PC with classes levels.

Don't bother with stats (ask your DM for small size if you really need it)

As for feats, standard sorc stuff. All the stuff with prodigy fluff is for Wizards.

Yukitsu
2010-03-08, 10:11 PM
Since it's essentially the same system the rules for D20 modern children should port just fine. I don't remember what they were, exactly, myself but I don't remember them being too bad.

They are pretty harsh and negative across the board. IMO, child adventurers is a fitting aspect of a fantasy style of game that doesn't fit into D20 modern, and thus in my opinion, should be allowed with no or minimal adjustment.

Rainbownaga
2010-03-08, 10:12 PM
It depends on how young the child is. As long as they're medium sized, it shouldn't really matter how old they are (almost the same argument as the 'women should have str penalties). If they're much smaller use the stats for a halfling (small size, high dex lucky and good at throwing things seems very child-like to me).

I wouldn't use the d20 modern rules because that would be a strait nerf, which isn't really very fun.

deuxhero
2010-03-08, 10:16 PM
Ok, it's "has no class levels, goes splat if attacked AND has ability score penalties." (http://www.12tomidnight.com/d20modernsrd/Ordinaries.php) That applys only to 12 and under.

Rainbownaga
2010-03-08, 10:31 PM
To answer the OP's question, spell focus enchantment

combined with charm it's a case of "how could you say no to those puppy-dog eyes".

(which may later become "Oh no! I've become a slave to the scary demon-child"

Jarveiyan
2010-03-08, 10:31 PM
Look at star Wars either RCR or Saga they should have ability modifiers for certain children age categories.

Crafty Cultist
2010-03-08, 10:32 PM
maybe give them small size and -2 strength?

LurkerInPlayground
2010-03-08, 10:33 PM
That is a *remarkably* precocious child. Int of 15? Cha of 19? WTF.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-08, 10:35 PM
This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96043) is homebrewed but may be helpful.

Apropos
2010-03-08, 10:36 PM
Wow, why is everyone making a big deal about her being a child? Mechanically, I agree, they're going to be weaker physically (okay maybe undeveloped all around), but there's no reason to try to come up with complex rules for it. The DM doesn't see a problem with it, so it will be fine.

On topic, I'm not really sure if run is even a good idea, it doesn't even seem flavorful and is useless. You don't have to sacrifice flavor for effectiveness anyway. Combat reflexes might actually be a good idea to use in conjunction with that one feat from ToB that lets you take a 5-foot step every time you're allowed a AoO. Not really that great, but it makes use of her dex. sorta :smallredface:

Since she's a sorcerer, her roleplaying will mostly be defined by her spells. Feats like combat reflexes wont really be able to do too much since casting is so much different from melee combat. I would grab one of the heritage feats and their related feats. This could explain why she's as strong as an adult, and has a much higher mental acuity, regardless of which type of supernatural ancestor she has (personally, I'd pick draconic).

Oh, and Spell Focus (Enchantment) and Greater seem like good ideas unless that's somehow not what your player is going for.

Saintheart
2010-03-08, 10:39 PM
Con 12 and Str 11 seem overly high to me. Commoners IIRC have stats aroung the "10" mark for these items -- can this preteen kid can outlast a fully-grown, muscular commoner in a marathon?

The Dark Fiddler
2010-03-08, 10:43 PM
Con 12 and Str 11 seem overly high to me. Commoners IIRC have stats aroung the "10" mark for these items -- can this preteen kid can outlast a fully-grown, muscular commoner in a marathon?

Never underestimate the ability of children to keep going and going and going and going and going and going. :smalltongue:

Yukitsu
2010-03-08, 10:46 PM
Con 12 and Str 11 seem overly high to me. Commoners IIRC have stats aroung the "10" mark for these items -- can this preteen kid can outlast a fully-grown, muscular commoner in a marathon?

If it's a heroic child, yes, she should be able to manage as such.

Average adults in D&D are actually fairly pathetic by the average person in todays standards. Most people I know can bench press well above the maximum that a strength 10-11 commoner can for instance, can shake diseases without medicine far more rapidly than a con 12 can, and can run for more than a minute at the 90 feet per round it seems to assume. Not going to touch on the other stats as they are a bit more abstracted, but those two stats at least are fairly "meh" in your average commoner.

Rainbownaga
2010-03-08, 10:48 PM
Con 12 and Str 11 seem overly high to me. Commoners IIRC have stats aroung the "10" mark for these items -- can this preteen kid can outlast a fully-grown, muscular commoner in a marathon?

I thought so too, but these are already the two lowest scores. Also remember that size has absolutely nothing to do with strength or toughness in a given race. Heck, in a given race they're not even correlated by RAW

Cisturn
2010-03-08, 10:50 PM
Ok guys, what kind of feats would you take for this character flavor wise? She has ranks in escape artist, move silently, hide, open lock, tumble, and spellcraft, flavorwise wht kind of stats would you give her. Would you go more into rogue-ish street urchin stuff or more traditional sorcerer/wizard ones

deuxhero
2010-03-08, 11:03 PM
Criminal Background (Cityscape IIRC) makes a good chunk of them class skills.

Proven_Paradox
2010-03-08, 11:04 PM
Actually, I vaguely recall there were rules for playing children characters... in the BoEF. <<

If you're looking for a more street-urchin style sorcerer, two obvious, essential choices: Still Spell, Silent Spell. Beyond that, it's all about her spell selection.

Cisturn
2010-03-08, 11:05 PM
Never underestimate the ability of children to keep going and going and going and going and going and going. :smalltongue:

We had the character take the relentless trait for that very reason.


I know the 11 Str and 12 Con are kinda high, it's because i don't know the penalties the DM will put in for her being a child yet. I'm assuming it'll be some sort of houserule.

StoryKeeper
2010-03-08, 11:07 PM
Well, it kinda depends on how you want to play her sorceress fluff. Has she always had her magical powers? If so, she has probably been using those alongside any rogue-ish talents she has developed. At level one (or lower), she would have been your standard street urchin with a few extra tricks up hr sleeve. Depending on what powers she developed, she'd have obtained non-magical skills to help her stay alive.

So if she had charm person when she was very young, she would have learned to mix it with diplomacy for those who would give her what she wanted, and sleight of hand to take what she wanted/needed from those who were uncooperative. if she developed an offensive spell at first level, she would have relied more heavily on her rogue skills (and thus would have feats to boost those skills) to survive and used her magic only when she really needed to.

On the other hand, if she didn't develop her magic until later in life, she would probably have invested a lot of feats into diplomacy or thievery-related things so that she could get what she needed, and the magic would have been a bonus she developed later on.

Dr Bwaa
2010-03-08, 11:13 PM
I believe there are a couple threads around here having to do with being a child in D&D, but I can't find them for the life of me. I'm pretty sure they get like -4 STR, -2 WIS, -2 INT, small size, and maybe some other stuff. Everyone else seems to have plenty of feat suggestions for you =P

Rainbownaga
2010-03-08, 11:24 PM
How can you be hyperactive without improved initiative? Good for both fluff and effectiveness.

There's also a feat in complete adventurer that lets you reroll an initiative check- not a very good feat, but the fluff text is something like "you are one jumpy individual"

Speaking of re-rolls, luck feats might be appropriate- I don't know why but I always associate the urchin/child adventurer making up for their shortcomings with a bucket-load of luck.

Optimystik
2010-03-08, 11:41 PM
What's wrong with kids in RPGs? I loved Spark in Ultima VII. (Not to mention Earthbound's psionic throwdown :smallbiggrin:)

SethFahad
2010-03-09, 01:42 AM
That reminds me one of my favorite Adventure games ever... Simon the Sorcerer 1 & 2... I always wanted to create a PC based on him... :smallsigh:
Ok, the starting age of a human wizard range from 17 to 27 years old.
for a sorcerer range from 16 to 19 years old.

For children take a look at this (http://http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Child_(template))

Apropos
2010-03-09, 02:03 AM
That Child template does not help at all. Read on LA:

Level adjustment: Children are inappropriate for player characters due to their inability to advance in levels. If for some reason, a PC wants to play as a child prodigy, the character should be treated mechanically as an adult. Due to the highly unusual nature of the situation, any adjustments to ability scores, size, speed or other factors should be carefully judged by the DM on a case-by-case basis.


See? No problem with the character being too young.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-09, 02:17 AM
After looking at the rules provided in the link above, I'd say just use the ability adjustments listed there and maybe if the kid's really young make them small. -3 to str and con sucks, but -1 to each of the other 4 doesn't seem too bad. This is, of course, only if you and your DM decide that playing a child must have some mechanical impact.

SethFahad
2010-03-09, 02:18 AM
You can always use the Awaken spell, in a child to speed up its development.

Take a look at this (http://http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/katz/dnd/kids.html).

DeltaEmil
2010-03-09, 02:23 AM
You can always use the Awaken spell, in a child to speed up its development.

Take a look at this (http://http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/katz/dnd/kids.html).That wouldn't do, as Awaken only functions on a tree or an animal. And animals are defined by the D&D rules as something different than a humanoid, even if its mental faculties are not developed and it still crawls on the ground like a slow tortoise.

Sophismata
2010-03-09, 02:28 AM
Egads, who cares if she's a kid. It doesn't really matter.


To the OP:

For feats, Heighten Spell is a great one for spontaneous casters. Not sure about the other two - taking flavourful feats is fun, but can hurt your character in the long run. It really depends on the game.

I don't think she'll get much use out of combat reflexes alone, but if you take combat reflexes and evasive reflexes... she can 5' step away every time she gets granted an AoO.

You can just take evasive by itself, which is probably better, she'd only get the benefit once per round, but movement can only provoke once, in any case.

Something else flavourful is Marital Stance: Child of Shadow, but you'd need a Shadow Hand maneuver first, and the two most appropriate ones are level 2 (Cloak of Deception / Shadow Jaunt).

Check the ToB for fun abilities you can take with a feat.

SethFahad
2010-03-09, 02:33 AM
That wouldn't do, as Awaken only functions on a tree or an animal. And animals are defined by the D&D rules as something different than a humanoid, even if its mental faculties are not developed and it still crawls on the ground like a slow tortoise.

Man, you didn't even read the link...:smallsigh:


animal: A type of creature that includes all natural animals, dire animals, giant animals, and some other nonmagical vertebrate creatures.
Animals always have an Intelligence score of 1 or 2.

Babies are vertebrate creatures, their Intelligence score is that low, so house rule it and of you go. An awakened baby! :smallcool:

Adamaro
2010-03-09, 02:43 AM
Stats are too high. WAY too high.

Str 6, Dex 12, Con 8, Int 10, Wis 6, Cha 12.

It is a child. Cha 12 due to sorcerer-ish-ness. Otherwise less, much less.

Cisturn
2010-03-09, 02:46 AM
I don't think she'll get much use out of combat reflexes alone, but if you take combat reflexes and evasive reflexes... she can 5' step away every time she gets granted an AoO.

So if she took evasive relflexes and combat reflexes could she take three shots and then move five feet away?

Sophismata
2010-03-09, 02:50 AM
Stats are too high. WAY too high.

Str 6, Dex 12, Con 8, Int 10, Wis 6, Cha 12.

It is a child. Cha 12 due to sorcerer-ish-ness. Otherwise less, much less.

Why the **** would you do that? Someone wants to actually PLAY the character, it's not an NPC. There is no reason to nerf her into oblivion on account of her age.

Also, I don't know about you, but children are smart. Far smarter than people give them credit for. They're tough, too.



So if she took evasive relflexes and combat reflexes could she take three shots and then move five feet away?

Only if she was granted 4 attacks of opportunity.

Cisturn
2010-03-09, 02:54 AM
Only if she was granted 4 attacks of opportunity.


She does, 18 dex

Adamaro
2010-03-09, 02:57 AM
Why the **** would you do that? Someone wants to actually PLAY the character, it's not an NPC. There is no reason to nerf her into oblivion on account of her age.

Also, I don't know about you, but children are smart. Far smarter than people give them credit for. They're tough, too.

1. As for all that intelligence and toughness - you must have been reading a bit too much SOIAF.

2. I myself am a roleplayer. If I will play a child, I will accept all the penalties this state brings. So unless what we have here is a space-marine child, then this is not a child. (But with initial stats it could be an abberation. Now that is a decent plot twist right there :smallbiggrin:)

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-09, 03:15 AM
Why the **** would you do that? Someone wants to actually PLAY the character, it's not an NPC. There is no reason to nerf her into oblivion on account of her age.


Agreed, plenty of fantasy stories have child prodigies, and there are probably 12 year old gymnastic and figure skaters with what would qualify as really high dex scores.

Now, in a recent feudal japan styled setting campaign I was in. (it ended a few weeks ago). I played a 12 year-old Psion[telepath] who by the end of the campaign had turned 13. For this character I looked up child growth charts to get a good idea of height and weight, I found that most people don't grow very much after age 12, especially when compared to the previous years.

So aside from being a little short and light weight the applications were all roleplaying. And it can be hilarious in a psudo-feudal japan setting where the party face is a twelve year old girl. If I played a male character it wouldn't have been as funny.

People often questioned why the party had a little girl following them around. Some assumed she was a relative of the party Samurai or something well bad, like a child mistress, a slave, the gajin's daughter.
Which greatly offended her as she was really exiled nobility in hiding from the Ram clan which was occupying her clan's lands.

She did childish things like pout, or sometimes kick party members in the shin for some offense. Rodric, the wizard was was a gajin(foreigner) was the most often recipient of shin kicks due to his utter lack of social graces, tact. (if an 11th century englishman saw feudal japan while thinking he was in the holy land, then voiced his thoughts) That was Rodric.

But aside from role-playing there was no mechanical change and for age 12 and up that's all you really need, RP.

DeltaEmil
2010-03-09, 03:23 AM
Man, you didn't even read the link...:smallsigh:



Babies are vertebrate creatures, their Intelligence score is that low, so house rule it and of you go. An awakened baby! :smallcool:If you need to house-rule that humanoid babies are considered animals, then you might as well play Pun-Pun who used Alter Self to look like a human toddler. Much better stats, much stronger, and better "roleplaying ability". :xykon:

Sophismata
2010-03-09, 03:32 AM
1. As for all that intelligence and toughness - you must have been reading a bit too much SOIAF.

I have no idea what SOIAF means, but the coddling of children annoys me. They may not be knowledgeable, or necessarily educated, but don't assume they aren't intelligent.

Kids are tough - they have to be. Growing up is basically surviving that which doesn't kill you.



She does, 18 dex

Yes, but just because she can take 4 AoO's, doesn't mean someone is going to provoke 4 AoO's.



But aside from role-playing there was no mechanical change and for age 12 and up that's all you really need.

Pretty much. :smallsmile:.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-09, 03:36 AM
For the build
charm person is fairly obvious and ranks in social skills is fairly obvious. She doesn't need to pick pockets if she can simply convince people to give her food. If she's living on the streets endure elements to protect her from cold nights.

For a familiar, probably a cat. It could have kept an eye on the kid while she slept and wouldn't attract the attention other familiars might. Though technically the material cost of summoning a familiar could have kept her fed for a long long time. But the DM could hand wave the cost away.

My own psion started at 6th level but she grew up in a noble house and received training to nature her prodigy as a mentalist.(also spent three months on the street evading the Ram after the capital fell before the campaign began).

You'll probably need some explanation for any equipment she has, or if she's still living on the streets why.

Adamaro
2010-03-09, 03:50 AM
I have no idea what SOIAF means
Sorry, I was sure, every dnd player read Martins' Song of ice and fire. Anyway its a fantasy book with a few kids (Sansa excluded) who gulped down a potion of Wegaboo fajtan magic and are acting accordingly.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 07:24 AM
Are you even allowed to play a child in D&D? I not entirely sure but aren't there weird stat and other modifiers you have to take or something (please cite book where I can find this)?

You can if you want to, and there is a template floating around on the internet for children. It really depends on how old she is, Is she a tot, a small child, a preadolescent, or a teenager?

Cyclocone
2010-03-09, 08:13 AM
Oh come on now! There is really no need to reinvent the wheel here.:smalltongue:
Remember, Strongheart Halflings are just small Humans anyhow and fluff is mutable.


As for feats, it really comes down to flavour and playing style.
However, Eschew Materials would make thematic sense (presumably, your average street urchin wouldn't be lugging bags of snake stomachs and giraffe feet around).

onthetown
2010-03-09, 08:26 AM
I'm not going to get into the whole kid debate, seeing as their DM is allowing it.

I read somewhere (I think the 3.5 Sorcerer class, actually) that sorcerers manifest their powers early on and houses with young sorcerers are plagued by things like random, small fires, lights turning on and off, etc. Depending on how young she is, you might want to ask the DM if he wants to make a small percentage of the character's spells go wild or fail. Not like 50%, as that's just cruel to the player, but maybe 5 - 10%.

Otherwise, I like the idea. I agree that the STR might be a little high, but the CON is right. Kids are incredibly bouncy and bendable when it comes to getting hurt . . . A type of fracture that most kids get only goes partway through the bone because it didn't break, just bent. The INT is very high for a sorcerer who's an orphan, unless there's a free public school system or something . . . Even then it's high.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 09:39 AM
Seriously how old is she? Because the age groups I listed have a great many differences.

Sophismata
2010-03-09, 10:49 AM
Sorry, I was sure, every dnd player read Martins' Song of ice and fire.

Cheers. I've read the first book - I've never seen the series as an acronym before.

Cisturn
2010-03-09, 11:04 AM
Seriously how old is she? Because the age groups I listed have a great many differences.


i think she's going with eleven or twelve

oh also her Int is high because she has the ability to process information quickly, i know she's only a kid but int is based on how well you understand, not how much you know

Volkov
2010-03-09, 11:22 AM
i think she's going with eleven or twelve

She's going to take a strength penalty, and maybe a wis penalty too (less world wise and attentive on average than adults). Balanced out by a dex and cha bonus (children of thiis are typically seen as cute and are more agile than adults)

Yuki Akuma
2010-03-09, 11:31 AM
It's rather weird to see so many people thinking children should get a Dex bonus.

Kids are clumsy. They aren't more agile than adults. They're just smaller and harder to catch.

Also Charisma has absolutely nothing to do with looks. Charisma is force of personality and self-assuredness, and kids don't have much in the way of that.

If anything, kids should get a bonus on Intelligence, and maybe Speak Language as a free class skill, to denote their incredible ability to learn and understand new things much better than adults.

I also don't think a Wis penalty matches at all.

SpikeFightwicky
2010-03-09, 11:44 AM
I also don't think a Wis penalty matches at all.

Maybe it represents ADHD?

Also, the Modern SRD lists the following for children 12 and up:

–3 Str, –1 Dex, –3 Con, –1 Int, –1 Wis, –1 Cha

Under the 'Children' header. (http://spikefightwicky.tripod.com/ordinaries.html)

Mordokai
2010-03-09, 11:59 AM
I really don't get it why everybody is bent on saying he can't play a kid. First of all, if his DM is cool with it, that's all we need to know. Second, to not totally gimp the player, one can simply treat the character as an adult adventurer in child body. If player want to play a kid he may do so, roleplay it as such, but for heavens sake, don't give guy a hard time because some god forbiden rules say that kids get penalties such and such. Simply weave them away and proceed like a normal adventurer.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 12:12 PM
It's rather weird to see so many people thinking children should get a Dex bonus.

Kids are clumsy. They aren't more agile than adults. They're just smaller and harder to catch.

Also Charisma has absolutely nothing to do with looks. Charisma is force of personality and self-assuredness, and kids don't have much in the way of that.

If anything, kids should get a bonus on Intelligence, and maybe Speak Language as a free class skill, to denote their incredible ability to learn and understand new things much better than adults.

I also don't think a Wis penalty matches at all.
To say that you become dumber as an adult has some very, very unfourtunate implications. And appearances do have something to do with Cha.

Yuki Akuma
2010-03-09, 12:14 PM
Fine, use bonus skill points or something. The point is, kids are very, very adept at storing and processing new information. Their minds are heavily plastic and that's not just a metaphor.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 12:16 PM
I really don't get it why everybody is bent on saying he can't play a kid. First of all, if his DM is cool with it, that's all we need to know. Second, to not totally gimp the player, one can simply treat the character as an adult adventurer in child body. If player want to play a kid he may do so, roleplay it as such, but for heavens sake, don't give guy a hard time because some god forbiden rules say that kids get penalties such and such. Simply weave them away and proceed like a normal adventurer.

That breaks the suspension of disbelief. Since when is an eleven year old girl as strong as anadult who has had plenty of exercise? Plus, they can get a negative LA for it.

Moglorosh
2010-03-09, 12:25 PM
To say that you become dumber as an adult has some very, very unfortunate implications. And appearances do have something to do with Cha.For most people, that "unfortunate implication" is actually true. Unless you actively strive to keep your brain in shape, your wit just isn't going to be as sharp as it was in your teenage years.




2. I myself am a roleplayer. If I will play a child, I will accept all the penalties this state brings. So unless what we have here is a space-marine child, then this is not a child. (But with initial stats it could be an abberation. Now that is a decent plot twist right there :smallbiggrin:)So it's fine for a 20 year old to have the equivalent strength or intelligence of several men, but it's not ok for a child? How does the assumption that children must be mundane and average make any sense at all in this context?

Mordokai
2010-03-09, 12:26 PM
That breaks the suspension of disbelief. Since when is an eleven year old girl as strong as anadult who has had plenty of exercise? Plus, they can get a negative LA for it.

You're playing DnD. You're telling me you're willing to believe that there are dragons, demons, devils and whatnot of bestiality, but not that an eleven year old girl can do push up as well as adult? Especially when that girl has magic to back her up?

And that's not what I'm saying at all. OP says his friend wants to play PC that's a small girl. The point I'm trying to get across is that all you need to do is to say that the said PC isn't any different than any of the rest, she just looks different.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 12:29 PM
You're playing DnD. You're telling me you're willing to believe that there are dragons, demons, devils and whatnot of bestiality, but not that an eleven year old girl can do push up as well as adult? Especially when that girl has magic to back her up?

And that's not what I'm saying at all. OP says his friend wants to play PC that's a small girl. The point I'm trying to get across is that all you need to do is to say that the said PC isn't any different than any of the rest, she just looks different.

This is the equivalent of a young dragon being as strong as an mature adult dragon of the same type.

Mordokai
2010-03-09, 12:31 PM
This is the equivalent of a young dragon being as strong as an mature adult dragon of the same type.

If that's what it takes for a player to have fun, do it. Or would you rather gimp your player and tell him, yes, you can play this character but you'll suck while doing so?

As long as that doesn't brake the game I say go for it.

Lysander
2010-03-09, 12:33 PM
Why not just consider her a small humanoid and give her the usual adjustment:


Small Characters

A Small character gets a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks. A Small character’s carrying capacity is three-quarters of that of a Medium character.

A Small character generally moves about two-thirds as fast as a Medium character.

A Small character must use smaller weapons than a Medium character.

And throw in a -2 Str, +2 Dex adjustment. Then roll 2d4 + her current age to determine when she reaches medium size and these adjustments go away.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 12:40 PM
If that's what it takes for a player to have fun, do it. Or would you rather gimp your player and tell him, yes, you can play this character but you'll suck while doing so?

As long as that doesn't brake the game I say go for it.
She will get negative LA to compensate.

Mordokai
2010-03-09, 12:42 PM
You're obviously hell bent on not understanding what I'm saying so I'll let this discussion continue as it was. I think I made my point clear and if you still don't get it or don't want to get it, I have nothing more to say.

Cisturn
2010-03-09, 12:44 PM
but what feats should she take? at the moment it's looking like combat reflexes, evasive reflexes, and then either silent or still spell. I know combat reflexes is weird for a sorcerer, but the plan is to use Hideous Laughter and then do an all out attack the next round. i know it's not a great combo, but she's going for fun here.

Any substitutions or other ideas?

Mordokai
2010-03-09, 12:47 PM
but what feats should she take? at the moment it's looking like combat reflexes, evasive reflexes, and then either silent or still spell. I know combat reflexes is weird for a sorcerer, but the plan is to use Hideous Laughter and then do an all out attack the next round. i know it's not a great combo, but she's going for fun here.

Any substitutions or other ideas?

Depending on her personality: is she carefree? A little monster? Dare I say, little seductress? As in, she uses puppy eyes? :smallsmile:

Some people already said, spell focus (enchantement) and greater spell focus might make sense. Skill focus? Maybe she picked up some languages on the street? Wouldn't be hard with her intelligence. Tell us more what she is like and we can give you better suggestions.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 12:48 PM
You're obviously hell bent on not understanding what I'm saying so I'll let this discussion continue as it was. I think I made my point clear and if you still don't get it or don't want to get it, I have nothing more to say.

I take maintaining the suspension of disbelief very seriously. Because once it is broken, the players, nor me, can immerse ourselves in the story. Also, negative LA should offset any penalties quite well.

Tiki Snakes
2010-03-09, 12:49 PM
She's as strong as a full grown man, because she has the blood of dragons flowing through her.

Comparing her to a mundane girl-child is scientifically meaningless.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 12:53 PM
She's as strong as a full grown man, because she has the blood of dragons flowing through her.

Comparing her to a mundane girl-child is scientifically meaningless.

And this doesn't work with adults because?

Kylarra
2010-03-09, 12:58 PM
And this doesn't work with adults because?
because they were all nerfed by giant pengis.

Or perhaps it does cuz adventurers don't use the 11/10 array or the npc array or the elite array. :smalltongue:

Yukitsu
2010-03-09, 12:59 PM
And this doesn't work with adults because?

Probably because adults don't actually work out once they get magic.

Tiki Snakes
2010-03-09, 12:59 PM
And this doesn't work with adults because?

It does. Doesn't mean they are always going to be stronger than the common man, but those with Sorcerous blood will almost always be supirior to the common man in any number of ways even outside of the ability to command the flow of magic.

They are frequently significantly more agile and charasmatic than the common man is capable of.

It's beside the point, however. Comparing a young girl with Sorcerous power and heritage to a dull-eyed street urchin of mundane heritage is pointless, because they are not the same thing. An entirely normal girl-child of that age would be unlikely to exhibit such robustness.

But this one is different. Given that normal little girls cant set your face on fire either, it's clear that there are different rules at play here, biologically.

Lysander
2010-03-09, 01:02 PM
Eschew Materials might be a good feat to pick up. Makes sense that an urchin girl wouldn't carry a pouch worth 5gp.

Plus, I just like the feat for sorcerers. Why need anything to cast spells other than yourself?

Kylarra
2010-03-09, 01:04 PM
Eschew Materials might be a good feat to pick up. Makes sense that an urchin girl wouldn't carry a pouch worth 5gp.Frankly, all sorcs should get that for free, but that's just my opinion.

Prime32
2010-03-09, 01:08 PM
Just make her a halfling

# +2 Dexterity, -2 Strength.
# Small: As a Small creature, a halfling gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but she uses smaller weapons than humans use, and her lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.
# Halfling base land speed is 20 feet.
# +2 racial bonus on Climb, Jump, Listen, and Move Silently checks.
# +1 racial bonus on all saving throws.
# +2 morale bonus on saving throws against fear: This bonus stacks with the halfling’s +1 bonus on saving throws in general.
# +1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown weapons and slings.
Bonus on saving throws - because you can't just kill off the kid.

Cisturn
2010-03-09, 01:18 PM
Depending on her personality: is she carefree? A little monster? Dare I say, little seductress? As in, she uses puppy eyes? :smallsmile:

Some people already said, spell focus (enchantement) and greater spell focus might make sense. Skill focus? Maybe she picked up some languages on the street? Wouldn't be hard with her intelligence. Tell us more what she is like and we can give you better suggestions.

ok this i can answer, well at least as well as I can. It's not my character but I've pretty much helped her build the character from the ground up,

Level 5 sorceress, Lily. Being on the verge of adolescence Lily sometimes like to act mature, however she can also get moody and pout when things seem unfair to her. She is chaotic good, but still a petty theif, she uses spells like charm person, fleeting fame, and empathy to get what she wants (yes she does use puppydog eyes) and is used to running away from town guards, using things like invisibility, hideous laughter and grease. She also has firepower like scorching ray and lesser orbs but that doesn't really describe her character.

Also she's smart, and understands more than she lets on, and she can also be pretty hyperactive. She also can speak draconic and sylvan, though i think it's unexplained why, so big opportunity for a backstories if anyone has any idea

huh i guess her knowing the draconic language supports tiki snakes's theory

Moglorosh
2010-03-09, 01:44 PM
I take maintaining the suspension of disbelief very seriously. Because once it is broken, the players, nor me, can immerse ourselves in the story. Also, negative LA should offset any penalties quite well.So a child having more class levels than an adult makes MORE sense to you?

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-09, 01:51 PM
This is the equivalent of a young dragon being as strong as an mature adult dragon of the same type.
Dragons advanced by age category,
demi-humans do not, by your logic a PC's level should be limited by his age.
A 12 year old is limited to level 1 or 0, but a 16 year old fighter can advanced 20 levels in one or two years.
Yeah that makes sense


Why not just consider her a small humanoid and give her the usual adjustment:
And throw in a -2 Str, +2 Dex adjustment. Then roll 2d4 + her current age to determine when she reaches medium size and these adjustments go away.

Because small size stops at 4ft tall. And most 11 year olds are taller then that. Unless she's going to be exceptionally short when she grows up by 11 she'd be to small for small size.


It's rather weird to see so many people thinking children should get a Dex bonus.
Kids are clumsy. They aren't more agile than adults. They're just smaller and harder to catch.

Which is why you don't have 14 year old girls don't compete in gymnastics at a professional level... OH wait THEY DO!. While they may not be entitled to a bonus they certainly don't earn a penalty.

In the real world there are child genius's smarter then most adults could ever hope to be and earning college degrees at 11 or 12. In sports like gymnastics and figure stating little girls are actually the dominate force.
In fact wasn't China accused of falsifying birth records and a few 15 year old skaters were actually much younger? (accused I'm not saying its true).

If child prodigy's can exist in real life, give one good reason they can't exist in D&D.

Alright if YOU must give some silly child stat mods instead of just accepting that in a world of magic and wonder you can have child prodigy's of adventuring

I give you The slim build flaw.
"Your character is short and slim, like a small sized character your carrying capacity is three-quarters of that of a Medium character and your limited to small sized weapons"

I am damn glad when I was designing my 12 year old psion a couple years back I didn't come to this board.

Vizzerdrix
2010-03-09, 01:55 PM
I wanna throw extra familiar into the ring, along with improved familiar. Talking flying kitties* that help to take care of her. Adorable.


*the Tressym.

Gorilla2038
2010-03-09, 01:56 PM
Spellcasting Prodigy might very well fit the fluff, and has the nice advantage of being a pretty decent feat.

Something i find pretty amusing btw: at 12, if we assume lift over head is equal to squat weight, i had a 17 strength! Well, 10 pounds under, but still funny.

Yuki Akuma
2010-03-09, 02:04 PM
Which is why you don't have 14 year old girls don't compete in gymnastics at a professional level... OH wait THEY DO!. While they may not be entitled to a bonus they certainly don't earn a penalty.

Just because one child in ten thousand is an Olympic-level gymnast doesn't mean all children have a Dex bonus.

She might have rolled a perfect 18 and ended up with a still-Olympic-level 16.

Should all adults have an Int bonus because some humans are geniuses?

hamishspence
2010-03-09, 02:07 PM
the NPC trait "Prodigy" in DMG2 might account for this sort of thing. The one child in thousands with Olympic-level potential, could have a trait like this.

Lysander
2010-03-09, 02:10 PM
I think the point is, as a fantasy street-wise urchin, and magical maven, she might have Olympic athlete/kid genius abilities or greater.

Besides, 11 strength is just average human strength. We can assume that as a sorceress her stats improved to adult level faster than normal. Or as a non-magical explanation, that a childhood of climbing rooftops and running through alleyways made her stronger than most kids her age.

Moglorosh
2010-03-09, 02:25 PM
Just because one child in ten thousand is an Olympic-level gymnast doesn't mean all children have a Dex bonus.

She might have rolled a perfect 18 and ended up with a still-Olympic-level 16.

Should all adults have an Int bonus because some humans are geniuses?
You're right. All DnD characters should be restricted to 10's in all stats because that's what the average person would have. Just because one person in ten thousand is a weightlifter doesn't mean that my character should be able to have above-average strength.

Yuki Akuma
2010-03-09, 02:27 PM
You're right. All DnD characters should be restricted to 10's in all stats because that's what the average person would have. Just because one person in ten thousand is a weightlifter doesn't mean that my character should be able to have above-average strength.

How the hell does what I said logically lead to that?

Jesus Christ. Way to put words in my mouth, champ!

So saying "not everyone is awesome, so we shouldn't give people a bonus for being awesome when only one in ten thousand people is awesome" logically equates to "not everyone is awesome, so everyone should be average".

What the ****?!

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-09, 02:41 PM
Just because one child in ten thousand is an Olympic-level gymnast doesn't mean all children have a Dex bonus.

She might have rolled a perfect 18 and ended up with a still-Olympic-level 16.

Should all adults have an Int bonus because some humans are geniuses?
I never said she should have a dex bonus, I simply stated there wasn't sufficient reason to have a penalty.
My point is, that because such athletes exist we can not assume that being 12 automatically means she's less dexterous than her adult self. Children can have excellent hand-eye coordination, agility, reflexes, and balance if they work at it. If they don't they'll be just as clumsy as an adult who doesn't


I think the point is, as a fantasy street-wise urchin, and magical maven, she might have Olympic athlete/kid genius abilities or greater.


Exactly.

Really what is the problem with stating her out EXACTLY like a normal character. Then just roleplaying her as a child with sorceress power.

A 16 year old human sorceress could be 4'10 and weight 90lbs using the random height and weight chart. She's exceptionally short but gets no stat modifiers.

Why should a 11 or 12 year old sorceress whose the same height and weight(and around the average for her age) be treated all that differently.

Twilight Jack
2010-03-09, 02:57 PM
Assign her stats as if she were an adult, then apply the following modifications based on age.

Adolescent (11-14 yrs.): -1 Str, -1 Con, -1 Int, -1 Wis, -1 Cha; +1 Innocence
Prepubescent (7-10 yrs.): Small size; -3 Str, -1 Dex, -3 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha; +2 Innocence
Child (4-6 yrs.): Small size; -6 Str, -3 Dex, -6 Con, -3 Int, -3 Wis, -3 Cha; +3 Innocence

Basically, it's just the aging modifiers in reverse, with a single iteration delay on the Dexterity penalty.

In addition, children gain a circumstance bonus equal to their Innocence for all Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, and Charisma checks in which being underestimated would prove advantageous.

They also gain this bonus on all Climb, Listen, and Move Silently checks.

Finally, all children receive a luck bonus to all saving throws equal to their Innocence bonus.

Jarveiyan
2010-03-09, 04:08 PM
Looking at SWSE(Star Wars Saga Edition) your modifiers would line up like this -
(human) child(1-11) -3 str and con; -1 dex, int, wis, and cha
(human) young adult(12-15) -1 str, dex, con, int, wis, and cha

As for size I'd probably have the child be small and the young adult being medium.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 04:12 PM
Looking at SWSE(Star Wars Saga Edition) your modifiers would line up like this -
(human) child(1-11) -3 str and con; -1 dex, int, wis, and cha
(human) young adult(12-15) -1 str, dex, con, int, wis, and cha

As for size I'd probably have the child be small and the young adult being medium.

Most children hit the four foot mark by their seventh-eighth year. And anything more than four feet tall is medium by RAW (I prefer RAI myself though.) So that's not a great system.

Nidogg
2010-03-09, 04:47 PM
Combat casting is usefull if she goes for a front liner which she wont or shouldnt. If she really wants to get a spell to deal the full whazonga then spell focus, spell penetration and weapon focus (ray) are good feats. If she wants trippy special abilitys then go for heritage feats from Dragon magic or PhII

Sanguine
2010-03-09, 04:48 PM
Combat casting is usefull if she goes for a front liner which she wont or shouldnt. If she really wants to get a spell to deal the full whazonga then spell focus, spell penetration and weapon focus (ray) are good feats. If she wants trippy special abilitys then go for heritage feats from Dragon magic or PhII

I think they also have some Heritage feats in Complete Mage but I could be mistaken.

Vizzerdrix
2010-03-09, 04:50 PM
I think they also have some Heritage feats in Complete Mage but I could be mistaken.

You are correct.

Lysander
2010-03-09, 05:00 PM
What about Extend Spell? Could be useful to make Charm Person last all day.

And Improved Initiative could represent a lifetime of avoiding danger. With her high dexterity it might be overkill, but it'd mean she'd almost always get to act first, which would be a useful chance to cast SoL spells like Charm Person or throw up an illusion and end the fight before it begins.

Prime32
2010-03-09, 05:02 PM
Combat casting is usefull if she goes for a front liner which she wont or shouldnt.Combat Casting is not useful unless you need it as a prereq.

Compare it to Skill Focus (Concentration). One grants +4 to a specific type of Concentration check, the other grants +3 to all Concentration checks. Combat Casting doesn't even help you cast spells while on fire or riding a horse.

Nidogg
2010-03-09, 05:05 PM
Compare it to Skill Focus (Concentration). One grants +4 to a specific type of Concentration check, the other grants +3 to all Concentration checks. Combat Casting doesn't even help you cast spells while on fire or riding a horse.


Good point, well made.

Rainbownaga
2010-03-09, 05:34 PM
Take spell focus illusion and the feat from complete mage (dazzling illusions?)

Everything is better with sparkles :smalltongue:


***

As for the child debate, please see the 'gender' (technically sex) debate regarding ability scores. Yes everybody knows adults are stronger and tougher than children just as men are stronger than women, but as I said before there is no correlation between size and physical ability scores within a given race.

If she was playing a seven year old it might have been an issue, but 4 years is easy enough to hand wave. Easier than a 90lb woman with 18 strength.

Mordokai
2010-03-09, 06:36 PM
Also she's smart, and understands more than she lets on, and she can also be pretty hyperactive. She also can speak draconic and sylvan, though i think it's unexplained why, so big opportunity for a backstories if anyone has any idea

If she speaks Slyvan, maybe she has been raised by fey? Draconic bloodline has already been mentioned, I believe fey bloodline exists as well. Maybe your friend can work in that way?

Other than that, spell focus and greater spell focus enchantement seem like an obvious pick for me, flavor wise. And they are not half bad feats as well, looking from power point of view. Skill focus Bluff or any thief related skills might also do it. And I support the improved initiative suggestion some people already gave.

Sorry, this is the best I can come up with at this time and hour :smallsmile: Maybe I can think of something better when I get some sleep.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-09, 07:06 PM
Perhaps she could be more recently orphan's say in the past few years, and has no memory before then. Maybe she was found wandering the streets in dirty rags after a major fire. I puts a little mystery in her past and gives the DM tools to explain her knowledge of languages later.

Cisturn
2010-03-09, 09:21 PM
this is actually a really cool idea, we have a half dragon and a pixie in the party. So I'm sure the dm will have a lot of fun trying to piece everyone's back stories together

Grumman
2010-03-10, 02:52 AM
In addition, children gain a circumstance bonus equal to their Innocence for all Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, and Charisma checks in which being underestimated would prove advantageous.
Hell no. They should get a penalty to all these skills, because they are inexperienced and easily tricked into tearing down their own lies.


Perhaps she could be more recently orphan's say in the past few years, and has no memory before then. Maybe she was found wandering the streets in dirty rags after a major fire. I puts a little mystery in her past and gives the DM tools to explain her knowledge of languages later.
Great. A child character and amnesia. You just want me to set your character sheet on fire, don't you?

I don't like child PCs, PCs defined by their disabilities or awakened animal PCs. It forces everyone else to come up with excuses to treat them as equals instead of treating them like liabilities who should be sent home instead of being given an equal share of the loot.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-10, 03:27 AM
I don't like child PCs, PCs defined by their disabilities or awakened animal PCs. It forces everyone else to come up with excuses to treat them as equals instead of treating them like liabilities who should be sent home instead of being given an equal share of the loot.

You do realize that in the actually time period D&D takes place in about 12 years old WAS adulthood. Hell Romeo and Juliet were around 13 so your entire argument is complete bull.

You don't like child characters thats fine but you've said your peace so get out of the topic and don't come back. You ranting on your hatred of the concept does nothing. I think shifters are a silly and stupid race but I don't hang around topic criticizing people trying to make a shifter character.
So why do you hang around criticizing the idea of a child character?

taltamir
2010-03-10, 03:48 AM
OP, taking really really bad feats for your sorceress for "roleplaying reasons" is rather pointless. She can roleplay a pickpocket without having the feat nimble fingers. Heck, at a mere +2 to slight of hand it is actually a really crappy feat to take even if you ARE a pick pocket.
If you really must do so then use skillpoints for it (2 skill points in the slight of hand skill, not as costly). but there is little point, she is a child, she doesn't need to be good at picking pockets, she can try and fail... heck it would make a great adventure hook... the little sorcereress street urchin tries to pick pocket the party and is caught, to be recruited by them into a better life.

I suggest useful feats. Also, try convincing your DM that she should have eschew materials for free (all sorcerers should)... because running around with a pouch of ingredients that costs 5gp and contains bat guano etc makes little sense for a sorceress.

Rhyvurg
2010-03-10, 03:54 AM
As far as ability score changes go, when comparing a commoner to a PC, commoners typical in the type of settings we use in DnD aren't the healthiest of people in the first place. They don't have access to healing magic, so serious injuries and diseases can have lifelong effects. They're not the most nutrition-contious folks (pretty much the reason modern humans are so much larger than out predecessors), whereas PCs can afford to eat well every day. So, a well-fed tween could quite possibly outperform a lame malnourished adult.

Tyrmatt
2010-03-10, 05:21 AM
A street urchin sorcerer would be able to make pickpocket attempts at range using Mage Hand etc. Also Spell Thematics are an utter must for a child mage.

Roleplaying wise, some kind of way to get Sudden Maximise would suit a child's explosive emotions. Something makes them angry *BOOOM*
Eschew Materials, pretty much a must as well.

taltamir
2010-03-10, 05:38 AM
As far as ability score changes go, when comparing a commoner to a PC, commoners typical in the type of settings we use in DnD aren't the healthiest of people in the first place. They don't have access to healing magic, so serious injuries and diseases can have lifelong effects. They're not the most nutrition-contious folks (pretty much the reason modern humans are so much larger than out predecessors), whereas PCs can afford to eat well every day. So, a well-fed tween could quite possibly outperform a lame malnourished adult.

you seem to confuse DnDland with medieval europe.
Healing magic is FREE for clerics and castable multiple times per day. Even if you don't go tippyverse with food traps and healing traps, you still have fairly good magical healing capacity which clerics can be expected to donate to the needy on occasion.

Grumman
2010-03-10, 11:32 AM
You do realize that in the actually time period D&D takes place in about 12 years old WAS adulthood. Hell Romeo and Juliet were around 13 so your entire argument is complete bull.
Hold on... are you actually holding up Romeo and Juliet as evidence that children aren't liabilities in battle? Quite apart from the fact that the PHB clearly states that 15 is considered the age of adulthood for a human, it's difficult to imagine a worse example than the posterchildren for Too Dumb To Live. It's like using Hannibal Lecter to demonstrate the benefits of a vegetarian diet.

desmond1323
2010-03-10, 12:03 PM
First off, to the OP, I'm sorry so many people have read your thread and completely missed the point and derailed, holding up their preferences and their judgements on the game to your group's playstyle.

Kudos to the lass for playing something nifty, no matter how your DM decides to houserule it mechanically.

As for my votes...gotta agree with the Improved Initiative, good feat and good fluff. On the streets, a quick reaction time can mean the difference between a getaway or death. Backed up by the characters natural talents.
Spell focus enchantment as well, because it's a decently safe assumption that she'd be more adept as using those sorts of spells, considering her background.
I also agree with the suggestion for luck feats...I'd check that out, if I was the player.

As for the skills, it sort of depends on how you further develop the character....some ranks in the Rogue-ish skills is necessary, because that's what she's been doing most of her life. As for the more Sorcerer-ish skills, what did the character do when she discovered her magical talent? Did it fascinate her so she started researching it? Or was it just one more handy tool to have in the great game of life on the streets?

Volkov
2010-03-10, 12:47 PM
Wait I think we all forgot that girls hit puberty well before boys. At age eleven or twelve, she'd definitely be an adolescent and started to ahem...develop quite a bit in the chest area and start experiencing hormone induced moodswings. If she hit puberty at eight or nine (which can in fact happen) she would have had a good deal of experience with magic and.....development in certain parts of the body.

Sir Giacomo
2010-03-10, 02:59 PM
ok this i can answer, well at least as well as I can. It's not my character but I've pretty much helped her build the character from the ground up,

Level 5 sorceress, Lily. Being on the verge of adolescence Lily sometimes like to act mature, however she can also get moody and pout when things seem unfair to her. She is chaotic good, but still a petty theif, she uses spells like charm person, fleeting fame, and empathy to get what she wants (yes she does use puppydog eyes) and is used to running away from town guards, using things like invisibility, hideous laughter and grease. She also has firepower like scorching ray and lesser orbs but that doesn't really describe her character.

Also she's smart, and understands more than she lets on, and she can also be pretty hyperactive. She also can speak draconic and sylvan, though i think it's unexplained why, so big opportunity for a backstories if anyone has any idea

huh i guess her knowing the draconic language supports tiki snakes's theory

I haven't read all the thread completely, so it may have already been mentioned, but:
Has your friend already thought about getting inspired by the Lyra character from Pullman's "His Dark Materials" series?
There is plenty of stuff in there that fits into this child sorcerer theme, including the small animal/daemon that is empathically linked to the child, as well as the affinity for "Dust" magic/energy.

And, of course, she would have a maxed bluff skill. :smallbiggrin:

A Lyra character could have feats like able learner (reflecting her good education), persuasive and skill focus- bluff.

- Giacomo

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-10, 03:18 PM
Hold on... are you actually holding up Romeo and Juliet as evidence that children aren't liabilities in battle? Quite apart from the fact that the PHB clearly states that 15 is considered the age of adulthood for a human, it's difficult to imagine a worse example than the posterchildren for Too Dumb To Live. It's like using Hannibal Lecter to demonstrate the benefits of a vegetarian diet.

I used the example of Romeo and Juliet because in the era William Shakespeare that age was considered an adult. Tell me what is the problem with making a sorcerer, marking the age down as 12. Then roleplaying it as a child prodigy. The only problem with it is YOU.

Literature, TV, comic books, and video games are filled to the brim with child heroes. Such as Ender's Game or the early books in the Harry Potter series.

In comics, there are plenty examples of junior high super heroes, especially when one includes sidekicks.

Countless, Japanese RPG games, include a party member younger then 15.
Including much of the Zelda series. Might as well throw anime in there to.
I'd list examples but there is hundreds of them.

So why is the concept of a child hero in D&D so hard to swallow when its basically the norm in the fantasy genre.

SITB
2010-03-10, 03:33 PM
Wasn't Cindy a child too?

randomhero00
2010-03-10, 03:41 PM
Up until the early 1900s kids used to work full time jobs in factories and on farms. In medieval times you started squire/knight training when you were 6-8. Its a modern invention that we treat kids like kids. They used to be treated like little adults. Which is messed up of course, but there's no question that if trained young enough a decent percentage of kids can be just as good as many adults in combat.

Youtube Richard Sandrak or Little Herecules. Its kind of creepy but there's videos of him with abs and looking like a mini body builder since he was 8 or so all the way up to current age (17.) And he's not even the best, just the most popular kid I could think of, there's an even better example (a much better martial artist prodigy) but I can't think of his name atm.

Considering that there are real life kids that are stronger/faster/smarter/etc than many adults, its hardly a stretch at all to roleplay one as a hero in a fantasy game. Heroes/adventurers by definition are already quite special/way above normal.

Mordokai
2010-03-10, 03:45 PM
I haven't read all the thread completely, so it may have already been mentioned, but:
Has your friend already thought about getting inspired by the Lyra character from Pullman's "His Dark Materials" series?
There is plenty of stuff in there that fits into this child sorcerer theme, including the small animal/daemon that is empathically linked to the child, as well as the affinity for "Dust" magic/energy.

And, of course, she would have a maxed bluff skill. :smallbiggrin:

A Lyra character could have feats like able learner (reflecting her good education), persuasive and skill focus- bluff.

- Giacomo

Now see, I like this. His Dark Materials could be a good source of inspiration :smallsmile:

taltamir
2010-03-10, 07:25 PM
Wait I think we all forgot that girls hit puberty well before boys. At age eleven or twelve, she'd definitely be an adolescent and started to ahem...develop quite a bit in the chest area and start experiencing hormone induced moodswings. If she hit puberty at eight or nine (which can in fact happen) she would have had a good deal of experience with magic and.....development in certain parts of the body.

while it CAN happen, it is EXTREMELY RARE to hit puberty THAT early (either years old that is).


Wasn't Cindy a child too?

cindy is a child. 5 years old. cindy is a wizard educated by mind rape. (her memories and personality have been erased and rewritten by magic to be that of an experienced wizard). She was chosen to be a child for the mechanical advantages. But since its tippyverse, she can be mass produced. (aka, you can make multiple cindys by rewriting the personality and memory of people of various ages, genders, and racfes to be that of an experienced wizard)


Up until the early 1900s kids used to work full time jobs in factories and on farms. In medieval times you started squire/knight training when you were 6-8. Its a modern invention that we treat kids like kids. They used to be treated like little adults. Which is messed up of course, but there's no question that if trained young enough a decent percentage of kids can be just as good as many adults in combat.

first of all, a kid working in a farm or a factory is not doing adult jobs. They are doing menial tasks that require little thinking OR strength.

Second of all, squires usually didn't become knight, a knight was a noble who was trained all his life to be a fighter, a squire was the person who carried his stuff, washed his armor (they had to piss and **** in it because it took too long to take off), etc.

Third of all, knights and longbowmen and many other special combat units did start training at childhood, but they were not effective fighters WHILE still children. their lack of development greatly hampered them.

fourth, its not a "modern invention" to treat children like children. sweatshops are COMPLETELY different than farms first of all. Sweatshops were never universal, they occurred in some places for a short amount of time (and still do in some countries), but it was a short lived institute, not something that dates to the dawn of humanity. While children in farms had to help around the house, it was more similar to chores (milk the cow, etc), and was done out of necessity (everyone must help or we starve in the winter), not as a matter of exploitation... technology made it so children don't have to do much today (loading the dishwasher and vacuuming their room and other such chores take significantly less time than hand washing the dishes, hand washing the clothes, etc etc). They still could play and were not treated entirely as adults, even though they had to spend more hours per day washing dishes and clothes and cleaning the house and peeling potatoes and help momma cook and other chores that are normally assigned to children even today (just in greatly reduced manner due to automatation).

Cisturn
2010-03-11, 02:07 AM
while it CAN happen, it is EXTREMELY RARE to hit puberty THAT early.

Actually anywhere from 10-13 would be normal for a girl to hit puberty, and if it is around puberty when a sorcerer gains their powers, it wouldn't be that hard to see a twelve year old girl spontaneously casting. Her being level 5 though might be harder to explain.

Omegonthesane
2010-03-11, 02:40 AM
Actually anywhere from 10-13 would be normal for a girl to hit puberty, and if it is around puberty when a sorcerer gains their powers, it wouldn't be that hard to see a twelve year old girl spontaneously casting. Her being level 5 though might be harder to explain.

Then you refluff her as having sorcerer spells at birth, and explain level 5 as a short lifetime's worth of experience with sorcery.

taltamir
2010-03-11, 04:33 AM
Actually anywhere from 10-13 would be normal for a girl to hit puberty, and if it is around puberty when a sorcerer gains their powers, it wouldn't be that hard to see a twelve year old girl spontaneously casting. Her being level 5 though might be harder to explain.

Reread what he said, 10-13 is indeed normal (although 10 is still relatively rare). He said as early as 8 years old. Technically, there are super rare cases of people entering puberty before their first birthday, and babies having a period. This is a hormonal problem and should not normally happen and is super rare and unlikely.


Then you refluff her as having sorcerer spells at birth, and explain level 5 as a short lifetime's worth of experience with sorcery.

yap... although you need not refluff, I am pretty sure it says "usually" in puberty, not "always" in puberty. She can be one of the few who manifested their powers much earlier then puberty.