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Mystic Muse
2010-03-09, 01:06 AM
I've heard people on here refer to a certain spell as "the Dragon killer" However I can't seem to find the spell. could somebody point it out please?

Innis Cabal
2010-03-09, 01:08 AM
Chilling Grasp.

Jacob Orlove
2010-03-09, 01:09 AM
Close. Shivering Touch. 3d6 Dex damage. All dragons have 10 dex.

sonofzeal
2010-03-09, 01:16 AM
Close. Shivering Touch. 3d6 Dex damage. All dragons have 10 dex.
And poor Touch AC.
narf

Mystic Muse
2010-03-09, 01:18 AM
And the traditional way to make the spell lethal is to maximize it?

krossbow
2010-03-09, 01:18 AM
And poor Touch AC.
narf

Unless your DM has dracinomicon and turns their Natural AC into touch AC.

Starscream
2010-03-09, 01:19 AM
And the traditional way to make the spell lethal is to maximize it?

Not really necessary. Even average rolls have a good chance of one-shotting it.

Mando Knight
2010-03-09, 01:20 AM
And the traditional way to make the spell lethal is to maximize it?

Empowered is really all you need at most.

Eldariel
2010-03-09, 01:20 AM
And the traditional way to make the spell lethal is to maximize it?

It's on average lethal. Well, 9.5 so it's just barely, but still. That said, Lesser Empower or Maximize Rod is enough; Level 3 spell after all. The bigger problem is delivering it (Reach Spell or Arcane Reach is greatly beneficial there; it's Touch) and penetrating Dragon's magical defenses (Scintillating Scales, etc.). But...yeah. It's brutal. Especially with Dispel. On surprised Dragons.

Mystic Muse
2010-03-09, 01:27 AM
So empower increases it to 4d6?

Masaioh
2010-03-09, 01:31 AM
What book is this spell from?

T.G. Oskar
2010-03-09, 01:32 AM
So empower increases it to 4d6?

Not really. More like "the result of 3d6 times 1.5".

Or, speaking in averages: average normal Shivering Touch is 10.5 (average of a d6 is 3.5) which would be reduced to 10, average empowered Shivering Touch would be around 15, maximized would be 18. Twinned gets the shot, since it would be an average of 21 Dex; by then, any Dragon is utterly paralyzed.

Afterwards, it's your decision on how you wish to kill it. It's helpless, so it won't be capable of recovering (unless, for some reason, it gets a Contingent Greater Restoration of some sort...)

Mystic Muse
2010-03-09, 01:34 AM
Shivering touch is in frostburn.

krossbow
2010-03-09, 01:35 AM
Not really. More like "the result of 3d6 times 1.5".

Or, speaking in averages: average normal Shivering Touch is 10.5 (average of a d6 is 3.5) which would be reduced to 10, average empowered Shivering Touch would be around 15, maximized would be 18. Twinned gets the shot, since it would be an average of 21 Dex; by then, any Dragon is utterly paralyzed.

Afterwards, it's your decision on how you wish to kill it. It's helpless, so it won't be capable of recovering (unless, for some reason, it gets a Contingent Greater Restoration of some sort...)


Try and skin it alive; since it has fast healing, if you do it right, you might be able to skin multiple carapaces off of it, let it regrow, then do it again.
(granted, using dragon scales for armor and items is more RP than crunch, but it still gets some good use out of the thing before you kill it)

Jacob Orlove
2010-03-09, 01:42 AM
You aren't really worried about averages here, you just need to hit 10 dex damage to incapacitate the dragon. Seriously, every dragon in the MM has 10 dex, it never goes up when they increase HD.

On a normal 3d6 roll, you have a 62.5% chance to get a 10 or better. With Empower, you only need a base roll of 7 or higher, which is an 83.8% chance. Maximize has a 100% chance to get above 10, but with Twin there's a (very very) slim chance of failure (0.1339% if I'm doing the math right).

Eloel
2010-03-09, 02:08 AM
I also recommend Energy Substitution (Fire), so against cold-subtype dragons, you can automatically deal 1.5x damage.
Also, normally those guys are immune to Shivering Touch. With Energy Sub, they aren't.

JaronK
2010-03-09, 02:11 AM
Spectral Hand is the usual way to make sure this attack lands, btw.

JaronK

Runestar
2010-03-09, 03:04 AM
Doesn't having 0 dex make you paralyzed?

Just wondering since dragons are immune to paralysis...

Draz74
2010-03-09, 03:07 AM
Doesn't having 0 dex make you paralyzed?

Just wondering since dragons are immune to paralysis...

That has indeed been debated, and I seem to recall the strictest reading of RAW still coming up in favor of "this doesn't count as the kind of Paralysis dragons are immune to, so it still effectively one-shots them."

Zaq
2010-03-09, 03:11 AM
That has indeed been debated, and I seem to recall the strictest reading of RAW still coming up in favor of "this doesn't count as the kind of Paralysis dragons are immune to, so it still effectively one-shots them."

Agreed. Kind of like how being immune to death effects doesn't make you immune to being killed. Paralysis is a status effect, and having 0 dex happens to involve being paralyzed but is not Paralysis. That's my reading, at least.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-09, 03:17 AM
Shivering Touch, banded by every DM in my roleplaying group.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-09, 04:26 AM
Not really. More like "the result of 3d6 times 1.5".
I don't think that's the right way to read it.
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half.
If you take the result x 1.5, you're increasing a constant by one-half, not a variable. I think the right way to do this is to make it 4.5 d6s. Of course there aren't half d6s, so the nearest approximation is 4d6 + 1d3. :smallsmile:

Runestar
2010-03-09, 04:32 AM
That has indeed been debated, and I seem to recall the strictest reading of RAW still coming up in favor of "this doesn't count as the kind of Paralysis dragons are immune to, so it still effectively one-shots them."

That was in fact the response customer service gave me, but considering their track record...


If you take the result x 1.5, you're increasing a constant by one-half, not a variable. I think the right way to do this is to make it 4.5 d6s. Of course there aren't half d6s, so the nearest approximation is 4d6 + 1d3.

I believe the correct way to be to first roll 3d6, then multiply the final result by 1.5. At least, that is the way the magic missile example in the empower spell description does it.

Farlion
2010-03-09, 04:40 AM
If you take the result x 1.5, you're increasing a constant by one-half, not a variable.

The result you are talking about, is indeed the variable part of the spell damage, since it is determined over dice. It is in no way a constant like in 1d6+2 (where 2 would be the constant).

The interpretation to take the result of your die-roll and multiply this by 1.5 is therefore correct.

Cheers,
Farlion

P.s: Failed my spot check, got ninja'ed

Oslecamo
2010-03-09, 04:59 AM
Afterwards, it's your decision on how you wish to kill it. It's helpless, so it won't be capable of recovering (unless, for some reason, it gets a Contingent Greater Restoration of some sort...)

At wich point the illusion ends and the real dragon appears and does a strafing run on you with his breath weapon. Perhaps with a metabreath feat or two on top. Really, if the dragon is just standing there waiting to be be hit, it deserves to die. Real dragons fly. And they do it pretty fast.

Also, shivering touch allows SR.

Soonerdj
2010-03-09, 05:04 AM
Also, shivering touch allows SR.

The best things to do for Shivering Touch are to combine it with Spectral Hand and Assay Spell Resistance (SC).

Note the best user of Shivering Touch for Dragon killing is probably a Factotum as they can cast both spells in one round and then spend an Inspiration Point to have the attack ignore SR. That and their higher dex and 3/4 BAB means they are much more likely to hit on touch AC.

Runestar
2010-03-09, 05:09 AM
The result you are talking about, is indeed the variable part of the spell damage, since it is determined over dice. It is in no way a constant like in 1d6+2 (where 2 would be the constant).

The +2 does in fact benefit from empower, because 1d6+2 is simply shorthand for "any variable whole number between 3 to 8. In other words, it too is a variable component of the spell's effect.

If you will look at the magic missile example in empower spell's desc, it specifically tells you to first roll 1d4+1, then multiply the final result by 1.5. :smallsmile:

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-09, 05:12 AM
The best thing to do for shivering touch is to make it deal a penalty instead of damage(penalties can never reduce a stat to zero), or make it subject to a fortitude save and up it to 4th level.

Really how many DM's do not allow shivering touch because they feel its to powerful.

Oslecamo
2010-03-09, 06:16 AM
Note the best user of Shivering Touch for Dragon killing is probably a Factotum as they can cast both spells in one round and then spend an Inspiration Point to have the attack ignore SR. That and their higher dex and 3/4 BAB means they are much more likely to hit on touch AC.

Well but that's more of the factotum's power than shivering touch power. Extra actions+spellcasting is just brutal, not to mention all the other factorum extras. You can pull out all kind of combos with that class.

Lord Vukodlak:I allow shivering touch in my campaigns. Didn't really ever give me trouble, since it demands so much preparation to make it land that several things can and do go wrong. Why spectral hand an empowered shivering touch with assay spell resistance when you can shoot an arcane thesis twinned empowered enervation with assay spell resistance?

taltamir
2010-03-09, 06:28 AM
shivering touch can take out a lot more than just dragon... Assay resistance + quiickened maximized (rod) shivering touch + maximized (rod) shivering touch can take down a balor too.
the trick is to abuse the turn based mechanic and the very short visibility radius things have. with the right spells (ex: phantom steed) you can travel hundreds of feet per round... and as a wizard you also have celerity...
so quicktravel + maximized (rod) shivering touch, and if needed, celerity + maximized (rod) shivering touch again. you can throw a quickened spell into the mix too... maybe a quickened true strike for your first maximized (rod) shivering touch.

BTW, if you didn't know, celerity is a spell you can as an immediate action (on someone elsees turn), and it makes it your turn.

JaronK
2010-03-09, 06:46 AM
Shivering Touch is also great for taking out Paladins, who usually have high saves and AC but poor Dex and Touch AC. Lots of heavily armored types have the same weakness, but it's really noticable on Paladins.

And yeah, Factotums are probably the best dragon killers. A level 8 Factotum with Darkstalker should have little trouble with most dragons... by level 11 when he can ignore SR there's no reason to ever fear a dragon again. Just sneak up and land the touch, then add your Int to the dex damage (yes, the Factotum ability lets you add your Int to any damage roll). Bam, dead dragon. You can even use Shadow Hands to get the Shadow Teleport manuever, allowing you to teleport up, get an extra standard action to cast Shivering Touch, and kill the dragon. Or use the extra standard action for Spectral Hand. Whatever, you can easily instant kill that dragon with very little trouble.

White Dragons will be annoying of course for obvious reasons.

JaronK

taltamir
2010-03-09, 06:49 AM
not dead dragon... unable to move yet completely aware of his surrounding dragon...

there is a major distinction between the two :)

Optimystik
2010-03-09, 06:56 AM
At wich point the illusion ends and the real dragon appears and does a strafing run on you with his breath weapon. Perhaps with a metabreath feat or two on top. Really, if the dragon is just standing there waiting to be be hit, it deserves to die. Real dragons fly. And they do it pretty fast.

Also, shivering touch allows SR.

Hide From Dragons (SpC) lets you get close enough to land this without trouble.

SR is not hard to overcome. Pump your CL, use Assay Resistance... one of my favorites is to be an Eldritch Theurge and Spellweave a Vitriolic Essence onto my Shivering Touch as well, eating through SR.


Doesn't having 0 dex make you paralyzed?

Just wondering since dragons are immune to paralysis...

These two quotes from the SRD are the source of the controversy:

"Dexterity 0 means the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid and helpless." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityScoreLoss)

"A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDamaged)

The second one gives the DM a bit of leeway - however, a more logical reading is that the first supersedes the second, either by being more specific (a la Rules Compendium - specific trumps general) or by them BOTH being applied whenever a dragon hits Dex 0 (thus, its immunity applies to the second, but it still cannot move due to the first.)

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-09, 06:57 AM
not dead dragon... unable to move yet completely aware of his surrounding dragon...

there is a major distinction between the two :)

And if Dragon's caster level is high enough..

And optionally, bluff is well ranked... just to say.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2010-03-09, 06:58 AM
Dragon Slave? :smallbiggrin:

no really, Shivering Touch has gotten banhammer'd in my game. It is just too powerful. :smallfurious:

Factotums I don't know too much about, but they seem to be the real goddam batman. Isn't that an eberron class? :smallconfused:

Optimystik
2010-03-09, 07:00 AM
Factotums I don't know too much about, but they seem to be the real goddam batman. Isn't that an eberron class? :smallconfused:

They are a class in Dungeonscape, the book that was partially written by our very own Giant. Thus they would have a bit of rockstar status on these boards even without being awesome. :smallcool:

They are also one of the best Gestalt partners known to the gaming table.

Eldariel
2010-03-09, 07:01 AM
Factotums I don't know too much about, but they seem to be the real goddam batman. Isn't that an eberron class? :smallconfused:

You're thinking of Artificer. Factotum is from Dungeonscape; completely un-setting specific.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-09, 07:07 AM
Note that Shivering Touch has a problem in its RAW, because damage can't have a duration.

taltamir
2010-03-09, 07:08 AM
Note that Shivering Touch has a problem in its RAW, because damage can't have a duration.

what do you mean?

Oslecamo
2010-03-09, 07:09 AM
"Dexterity 0 means the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid and helpless." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityScoreLoss)

"A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDamaged)

The second one gives the DM a bit of leeway - however, a more logical reading is that the first supersedes the second, either by being more specific (a la Rules Compendium - specific trumps general) or by them BOTH being applied whenever a dragon hits Dex 0 (thus, its immunity applies to the second, but it still cannot move due to the first.)

Oh, never had noticed that particular line. Wonderfull. Since it's the DM who gets the final saying in rules interpretation, he can rule that by RAW dragons are immune to shivering touch. After all, "rigid, motionless and helpless" could be argued to be just another way of saying "paralyzed":smallbiggrin:

Also, there are better gestalt options than factotum? Really? What could beat extra actions all day long plus all the other goodies?:smallconfused:

taltamir:The spell has a duration. Some parts of frostuburn also sugest it allows a save. This has led to speculation that it was just horribly written and was suposed to be a penalty allowing a save.

Optimystik
2010-03-09, 07:13 AM
Note that Shivering Touch has a problem in its RAW, because damage can't have a duration.

I don't see any such conflict:

"The character has temporarily lost 1 or more ability score points. Lost points return at a rate of 1 per day unless noted otherwise by the condition dealing the damage." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDamaged)

Not to mention Rules Compendium states that a spell or monster's entry is more specific than a general rule.


Also, there are better gestalt options than factotum? Really? What could beat extra actions all day long plus all the other goodies?:smallconfused:

There are other ways to get extra actions, especially if you're not Int-based. A Wis-based gestalt can go with Ardent for instance.

Yora
2010-03-09, 07:13 AM
Every spell that deal moderate amounts of ability damage can be instant kill. My character once got killed from a poison spell. 2d10 Con damage do that to you easily.
Feeblemind allows one Will save. Fail it, and sit down to wait for someone to deliver a dagger to your eye.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-09, 07:16 AM
I don't see any such conflict:

"The character has temporarily lost 1 or more ability score points. Lost points return at a rate of 1 per day unless noted otherwise by the condition dealing the damage." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDamaged)

Not to mention Rules Compendium states that a spell or monster's entry is more specific than a general rule.

Which is to say, that rule is trumped by anything saying that it returns faster. Shivering Touch doesn't say that, it said that the spell has a duration. Which doesn't make any sense, since its effect, the damage, is instantaneous.

Optimystik
2010-03-09, 07:19 AM
Which is to say, that rule is trumped by anything saying that it returns faster. Shivering Touch doesn't say that, it said that the spell has a duration. Which doesn't make any sense, since its effect, the damage, is instantaneous.

I read it differently - that the duration of the spell specifies when the damaged score will return (i.e. when it expires.)

A DM reading it otherwise may as well just ban the spell.

taltamir
2010-03-09, 07:22 AM
Oh, never had noticed that particular line. Wonderfull. Since it's the DM who gets the final saying in rules interpretation, he can rule that by RAW dragons are immune to shivering touch. After all, "rigid, motionless and helpless" could be argued to be just another way of saying "paralyzed":smallbiggrin:

by that interpretation, spells that grant "immunity to death effects" make you immortal.
Paralysis is not Paralysis.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-09, 07:23 AM
I read it differently - that the duration of the spell specifies when the damaged score will return (i.e. when it expires.)

A DM reading it otherwise may as well just ban the spell.

That's the thing though. Damage is always instantaneous and never goes away unless it's explicitly stated otherwise.

If you ignore the duration it's broken, if you read as "penalty" it's not broken, if you read as "damage that goes away" it's slightly less broken, but still broken because if 10 rounds of CdG from a party doesn't kill a monster, there's something weird going on.

taltamir
2010-03-09, 07:28 AM
since dragons are NOT immune to coup de grace, any duration higher then a few rounds is equally lethal.

Optimystik
2010-03-09, 07:28 AM
That's the thing though. Damage is always instantaneous and never goes away unless it's explicitly stated otherwise.

You're thinking of drain, not damage. Ability Damage is always temporary - follow my link.

Shivering Touch is damage, not drain.

Oslecamo
2010-03-09, 07:32 AM
by that interpretation, spells that grant "immunity to death effects" make you immortal.
Paralysis is not Paralysis.

No, because death ward specifically says:

The subject is immune to all death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and any negative energy effects.

This spell doesnít remove negative levels that the subject has already gained, nor does it affect the saving throw necessary 24 hours after gaining a negative level.

So as you can see it specifically only protects you from magic death, not from being stabbed to death by pointy sticks or burned to crisp. The dragon paralysis immunity protects against all paralysis, either mundane or magic.

Plus, death ward even has a clause:

Death ward does not protect against other sorts of attacks even if those attacks might be lethal.

Neither shivering touch or the dragon immunity have such clauses.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 07:35 AM
Summon Angry marine company.

Alternatively, use any spell that lowers more than 10 dexterity. Unless this is a dragon that rolled an eighteen for it's Dex score.

taltamir
2010-03-09, 07:35 AM
So as you can see it specifically only protects you from magic death, not from being stabbed to death by pointy sticks or burned to crisp. The dragon paralysis immunity protects against all paralysis, either mundane or magic.
Then by that definition it grants immunity to fireball, since it is "magic death".

if you take the notion that being "unable to move due to dex 0" is the same as having the paralysis status effect.

Optimystik
2010-03-09, 07:35 AM
As I said, the DM can use the second line as a basis for making ST useless on dragons.

But for the reasons I stated immediately afterward, I think the first line carries more weight.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-09, 07:36 AM
Then by that definition it grants immunity to fireball, since it is "magic death".

Is not a magic death effect.

taltamir
2010-03-09, 07:38 AM
Is not a magic death effect.

That was my point. fireball isn't magic death effect (or a death spell), and dex 0 isn't a paralysis effect. But when you start being creative with your nouns this is what happens.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-09, 07:42 AM
That was my point. fireball isn't magic death effect (or a death spell), and dex 0 isn't a paralysis effect. But when you start being creative with your nouns this is what happens.

Well, in case of the "dex 0 - paralysis" thing there is at least a link.. is not completely unrelated.

Maybe I say this because, as a DM, I ave an advantage for my poor dragons, I always used this interpretation :smalltongue:

More because I enforced it...:smallamused:

2xMachina
2010-03-09, 07:46 AM
But there's also the 1st line

"Dexterity 0 means the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid and helpless."

Volkov
2010-03-09, 07:48 AM
To really destroy a dragon, Reunite the halves of pandorym and flee your campaign setting as fast as possible. Because when Pandorym's through, there won't be enough of your home universe left for a single virus to live on.

taltamir
2010-03-09, 07:53 AM
Well, in case of the "dex 0 - paralysis" thing there is at least a link.. is not completely unrelated.

Maybe I say this because, as a DM, I ave an advantage for my poor dragons, I always used this interpretation :smalltongue:

More because I enforced it...:smallamused:

as a DM, you can just ban it outright using rule 0 because its overpowered. I think that is a better solution then creative reinterpretation of the rules such that the spell is useless, because that not only sets a bad precedent, it also will have unintended consequences.

Oslecamo
2010-03-09, 10:13 AM
as a DM, you can just ban it outright using rule 0 because its overpowered. I think that is a better solution then creative reinterpretation of the rules such that the spell is useless, because that not only sets a bad precedent, it also will have unintended consequences.

But proving that it doesn't work by RAW allows you to stop all the silly "shivering touch ownz dragonz lolz" arguments that appear in every other thread.

If anything, it sets a good precedent (instagib isn't as easy as you would like it to be), because monsters and PCs droping in a single turn is rarely a good thing.

Also, it wouldn't make the spell useless. -5 to AC and reflexes helps the fighter and blastomancer hit the dragon with pointy sticks and ref nukes, so everybody gets happier!

As a final note, half of the "optimization" I see on the net is based on "creative reinterpretation" of the rules, so it's only fair the monsters also play that game.

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-09, 11:00 AM
But proving that it doesn't work by RAW allows you to stop all the silly "shivering touch ownz dragonz lolz" arguments that appear in every other thread.

If anything, it sets a good precedent (instagib isn't as easy as you would like it to be), because monsters and PCs droping in a single turn is rarely a good thing.

Also, it wouldn't make the spell useless. -5 to AC and reflexes helps the fighter and blastomancer hit the dragon with pointy sticks and ref nukes, so everybody gets happier!

As a final note, half of the "optimization" I see on the net is based on "creative reinterpretation" of the rules, so it's only fair the monsters also play that game.

The SRD doesn't say 'paralyzed' for Dex 0. While other books may use the term, it's only in addition to the SRD as the two definitions don't clash. This means in addition to being 'motionless, rigid, and helpless' a creature is also paralyzed. So the dragon may be immune to the paralysis, but not to the helpless condition.

Also, just because the Dex 0 condition shares a definition with paralysis, does not mean that they are identical.

Example:
Bob is allergic to red apples which are a shiny, red, round fruit.
Bob eats a cherry which is a shiny, red, round fruit.

Bob the dragon is immune to paralysis which causes a person to stand rigid, motionless, and helpless.
Bob the dragon has his dexterity reduced to 0 which causes him to stand rigid, motionless, and helpless.

Play by the RAW, die by the RAW.

obnoxious
sig

Scorpions__
2010-03-09, 12:25 PM
Shivering Touch is also great for taking out Paladins, who usually have high saves and AC but poor Dex and Touch AC. Lots of heavily armored types have the same weakness, but it's really noticable on Paladins.

And yeah, Factotums are probably the best dragon killers. A level 8 Factotum with Darkstalker should have little trouble with most dragons... by level 11 when he can ignore SR there's no reason to ever fear a dragon again. Just sneak up and land the touch, then add your Int to the dex damage (yes, the Factotum ability lets you add your Int to any damage roll). Bam, dead dragon. You can even use Shadow Hands to get the Shadow Teleport manuever, allowing you to teleport up, get an extra standard action to cast Shivering Touch, and kill the dragon. Or use the extra standard action for Spectral Hand. Whatever, you can easily instant kill that dragon with very little trouble.

White Dragons will be annoying of course for obvious reasons.

JaronK


And that's when the dragons of the world get upset and send upon you the most uber dragons in the multiverse. I mean, as a Dungeon Master I would make sure there was some sort of retribution...






DM[F]R

Beorn080
2010-03-09, 12:38 PM
Permancied spell turning on your dragons. Congrats, the caster drops from 0 dex. Have the dragon roll over in its sleep. Mmm, pancakes.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 12:39 PM
Unless it's an great wyrm epic force dragon who rolled an 18 for dex, has used wish 5 times on his dex score, has a pair of +12 gloves of dexterity, and a permanancied cats grace. Then your dinky level 11 factorum is dead meat. And yes, I'd toss one at you at level 11 for using that munchkin build. Heck at level 11 or even earlier, I'll ask for your character sheet and build a dragon to kill your character with minimal effort. Just for munchinry, which is a serious crime at my table, punishable by character death, or being shunned by the entire table.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-09, 01:01 PM
Permancied spell turning on your dragons.
Since that's not allowed by Permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm), you might just as well posit an "invulnerability to PCs" ability. Amounts to the same thing if you're going to forget about the rules.

Oslecamo
2010-03-09, 01:02 PM
Bob the dragon is immune to paralysis which causes a person to stand rigid, motionless, and helpless.
Bob the dragon has his dexterity reduced to 0 which causes him to stand rigid, motionless, and helpless.

Play by the RAW, die by the RAW.

Ah, but helpless means either paralyzed, uncoscious, holded, bound or sleeping. Since shivering touch/0 Dex only does the first, then the helpless counts as paralyzed in this case!

Neither rigid or motionless are oficial stated conditions, so they're ignored by RAW.

Bob the dragon burns the puny caster who dared to challenge him.

Volkov:You don't need that much. A CR apropriate dragon with cheesed out meta breath shall be more than enough to one shot the factotum.

Or a dragon with save or die breath and the meta breath feat that allows you to raise the DC in return for waiting more turns. Kindly remember them why dragons are feared.

TaintedLight
2010-03-09, 01:06 PM
Unless it's an great wyrm epic force dragon who rolled an 18 for dex, has used wish 5 times on his dex score, has a pair of +12 gloves of dexterity, and a permanancied cats grace. Then your dinky level 11 factorum is dead meat. And yes, I'd toss one at you at level 11 for using that munchkin build. Heck at level 11 or even earlier, I'll ask for your character sheet and build a dragon to kill your character with minimal effort. Just for munchinry, which is a serious crime at my table, punishable by character death, or being shunned by the entire table.

Those gloves aren't going to stack with the cat's grace effect, but yeah... it's going to take a few Shivering Touches. Meaning you better get them all off in round one.

hamishspence
2010-03-09, 01:19 PM
All dragons have 10 dex.

Technically the MM2's Sapphire Dragon doesn't- but that's because, originally, its psychic powers were based on dexterity, in the 3.0 rules.

While it's been updated to 3.5, its stat array ws never changed- so its Dex still runs from Dex 12 at Wyrmling to Dex 22 at Great Wyrm.

Yuki Akuma
2010-03-09, 01:20 PM
Ah, but helpless means either paralyzed, uncoscious, holded, bound or sleeping. Since shivering touch/0 Dex only does the first, then the helpless counts as paralyzed in this case!

No, helpless means helpless. Those are all ways of causing helplessness, but they are not in and of themselves the definitions of being helpless.

Being helpless is being helpless. It's a status condition, just like being unconscious or being blinded. Many things can cause it.

Draz74
2010-03-09, 01:35 PM
You're thinking of Artificer. Factotum is from Dungeonscape; completely un-setting specific.

Specific to settings that include dungeons? Oh wait ... :smallwink:


Factotums I don't know too much about, but they seem to be the real goddam batman. Isn't that an eberron class? :smallconfused:

Well, they're a multi-talented class that favors Intelligence and therefore planning in advance, so ... yeah, they're actually pretty decent for a D&D approximation of Bruce Wayne.

Oh wait, that probably wasn't what you meant ...

They're a good class, but hardly game-dominating. What you're missing about all these descriptions of dragonslaying Factotums is that the Factotums therein are "going nova" pretty hard. They don't get many spells per day, so, unlike a Wizard or Sorcerer, after these cunning acts of dragon assassination, the Factotums in question will be wanting to rest for the night pretty quickly so they can have some magic again.

2xMachina
2010-03-09, 01:35 PM
This RAW argument isn't going to stop people claiming Shivering Touch is a dragon killer.

As DM, whether you RAW interpret nerf it, or ban it, the effect is the same.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-09, 02:05 PM
Lord Vukodlak:[/B]I allow shivering touch in my campaigns. Didn't really ever give me trouble, since it demands so much preparation to make it land that several things can and do go wrong. Why spectral hand an empowered shivering touch with assay spell resistance when you can shoot an arcane thesis twinned empowered enervation with assay spell resistance?

No it doesn't, fighter provokes AoO when he charges the dragon, I walk up to the dragon, cast Shivering touch, possibly empowered and deal enough dex damage to down the dragon. One round zero preparation.

No preparation required. If I'm worried about SR, assay spell resistance is a swift action. And if were dealing with extra feats I could cast a reach spell Shivering Touch and do it via ray. I could also cast interposing hand giving me cover and thus immunity to AoO.
A twined empowered enervation doesn't instantly down the dragon it could teleport away use some restorative magic then come back. *It also required two feats and a eight(sixth if using split ray) level slot, Shivering Touch can murder things with average dex without preparation at a 3rd level slot.

taltamir
2010-03-09, 02:19 PM
The SRD doesn't say 'paralyzed' for Dex 0. While other books may use the term, it's only in addition to the SRD as the two definitions don't clash. This means in addition to being 'motionless, rigid, and helpless' a creature is also paralyzed. So the dragon may be immune to the paralysis, but not to the helpless condition.

Also, just because the Dex 0 condition shares a definition with paralysis, does not mean that they are identical.

Example:
Bob is allergic to red apples which are a shiny, red, round fruit.
Bob eats a cherry which is a shiny, red, round fruit.

Bob the dragon is immune to paralysis which causes a person to stand rigid, motionless, and helpless.
Bob the dragon has his dexterity reduced to 0 which causes him to stand rigid, motionless, and helpless.

Play by the RAW, die by the RAW.

obnoxious
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exactly


If anything, it sets a good precedent (instagib isn't as easy as you would like it to be), because monsters and PCs droping in a single turn is rarely a good thing.

that has nothing to do with the precedent I was talking about. Each possible reinterpretation of the rules would set a different precedent. Each one of them is bad...
that is, if you set the precedent that a condition that shares a definition with another condition is the same condition, then you get situation as in the above bob case, where bob being allergic to apples makes him also allergic to cherries.

you can have different precedents depending on which fallacious interpretation of the rules you chose to abuse to nerf said spell.

and there is nothing wrong with admitting that WOTC wrote spells that are grossly overpowered and unbalanced. As they say "admitting you have a problem is the first step to solving it". All you are doing is trying to prove how WOTC can do no wrong, how everything must work by the RAW and work perfectly, even if it requires fallacies and reinvention of language and logic to do so. Which in in the end is not a good thing

taltamir
2010-03-09, 02:23 PM
Since that's not allowed by Permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm), you might just as well posit an "invulnerability to PCs" ability. Amounts to the same thing if you're going to forget about the rules.

also, your level 9 wizard CAN cast permanency...
your average dragon (age) can NOT cast permanency...
And if your dragon has it, so will the wizard who cast it on him (read up what happens when a spell is caught between two spell turnings.

Whats next, every fighter has permanent buffs while the wizards who can actually cast them do not?

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-09, 02:42 PM
No, helpless means helpless. Those are all ways of causing helplessness, but they are not in and of themselves the definitions of being helpless.

Being helpless is being helpless. It's a status condition, just like being unconscious or being blinded. Many things can cause it.

This. I might add that the "helpless" condition includes the clause "or otherwise completely at an opponentís mercy".

@Curmudgeon:
Absolutely correct. But I think that any interpretation of the RAW that makes a dragon immune to the helplessness imposed by 0 Dex by virtue of its immunity to paralysis, however, is nothing but a blatant -- if unwitting -- misinterpretation of the RAW. I can't help but feel that it's important to make sure this is clear.

I see nothing wrong with banning shivering touch (or ray of stupidity). To a DM who doesn't want to ban them, I would suggest houseruling in the same limitation that ray of enfeeblement has, limiting the spells to dropping the stat to 1.

My players and I have a standing agreement that they can do most of the cheesy stuff, but they can expect NPCs to retaliate accordingly. There is something of an unstated treaty not dissimilar to international treaties against things such as mustard gas or what appears to me to be a fairly standard treaty against ever casting disjunction.


there is nothing wrong with admitting that WOTC wrote spells that are grossly overpowered and unbalanced. As they say "admitting you have a problem is the first step to solving it". All you are doing is trying to prove how WOTC can do no wrong, how everything must work by the RAW and work perfectly, even if it requires fallacies and reinvention of language and logic to do so. Which in in the end is not a good thing

It's important to keep our discussions based in the RAW though, otherwise we have little common ground for discussion of the rules.

obnoxious
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jiriku
2010-03-09, 02:53 PM
Just for munchinry, which is a serious crime at my table, punishable by character death, or being shunned by the entire table.

Hey Volkov...ahem...killer penguin. Just sayin'...glass houses and all....



I have used shivering touch to kill a dragon. It worked quite well. My DM was inclined to wield the banhammer thereafter, but I persuaded him to simply uprank shivering touch to a 4th level spell, as it is a somewhat less thorough form of incapacitation than the various save-or-x spells available at 5th level. I also used it sparingly as he was very antsy about my shivering touch but oddly had no problem with more powerful effects like evard's black tentacles and polymorph.

Honestly, this spell does not live up to its hype.

IMC, I allow it as written. It's no big deal, really. My NPC wizards pack it too, on occasion. The sky has not fallen. My players keep a wand of lesser restoration to help them recover in the event that they should take 18 Dex damage to the face, and powerful NPCs take measures to guard themselves against ability damage just like they guard themselves from death effects, mind control, and other common attack forms.

For DMs concerned about protecting their dragons specifically, here are some options allowing you to continue using dragons and their ilk without banning shivering touch.

Scintillating scales (SC) converts natural armor bonuses to deflection bonuses, making it more difficult for the attack to connect. Furthermore, a variety of spells and effects exist to improve the dragon's natural armor prior to casting this spell.
The Craft Contingent Spell feat (CA) can be used to protect your dragon with a contingent restoration. Powerful dragons with both arcane and divine casting can simply cast contingency and restoration, without resort to the feat.
Consider also the oak body (XPH) psionic power, or the spells stone body (PGtF), iron body (PHB), or mantle of the icy soul (FB). A ring of spell storing can provide access to these spells for dragons who lack the ability to cast them.
Spell turning and ray deflection are effective if the caster uses some means to deliver the shivering touch as a ray.
If not delivered at range, the Stand Still feat can be used to prevent spellcasters from approaching, while the Spellcasting Harrier epic feat, combined with the Knockback feat or the battering wings ability of the Xorvintaal dragon template, allows an old or older dragon to swat a caster out of touch range when he begins casting the spell within the dragon's threat range.
Crystal, shen-lung, silver, topaz, and white dragons are all immune, as are dragonflesh golems (MM2).
Any of the following templates can be applied to a dragon and will render it immune: dracolich, skeletal dragon, vampiric dragon, zombie dragon (Dcn), dustform (Sand), effigy (CA), ghost (MM1), ghost brute (LM), half-air elemental (MotP), half dragon (crystal, shen-lung, silver, topaz, or white) (MM1), half-golem (MM2), ice beast (FB), revived fossil (LM), sacred watcher (BoED), saint (BoED), spectral (DoF), umbral (LM), or voidmind (MM3).
Further, I urge you to meditate on the power in the following three words: kobold cleric minion.

Resorting to the banhammer may save you time and effort, but with creative thinking you can let players have their toys and still have exciting, epic encounters with powerful solo monsters - even dragons with 10 Dexterity.

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-09, 02:58 PM
Resorting to the banhammer may save you time and effort, but with creative thinking you can let players have their toys and still have exciting, epic encounters with powerful solo monsters - even dragons with 10 Dexterity.

I agree with all of this, except I don't see where it says silver dragons are immune to dexterity damage.

Oh, because of the [cold] subtype. Energy Substitution can be used to get around that, though.

Edit: I'm not doing very well today.:smallannoyed:

obnoxious
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Optimystik
2010-03-09, 02:59 PM
Or just don't run dragons - they've been considered the "bad boys" of D&D so long that authors seem to delight in creating ways to foil them.

Hide From Dragons is so broken in a dragon encounter that it trivializes the entire situation.

Xan_Kriegor
2010-03-09, 03:05 PM
Granted, this only really helps for the higher CR dragons, but wouldn't a fairly reasonable way to help the dragon be trading out a feat for Still Spell so it can still cast spells while having 0 Dex (I refrained from using Paralyzed for some of you :smalltongue:)?

Yuki Akuma
2010-03-09, 03:08 PM
Even if it can cast, it's still helpless and can be coup de graced by every member of the party every round until it dies.

jiriku
2010-03-09, 03:09 PM
Granted, this only really helps for the higher CR dragons, but wouldn't a fairly reasonable way to help the dragon be trading out a feat for Still Spell so it can still cast spells while having 0 Dex (I refrained from using Paralyzed for some of you :smalltongue:)?

Yup. It only takes one stilled lesser restoration to get back in the fight.

Mystic Muse
2010-03-09, 03:11 PM
Yup. It only takes one stilled lesser restoration to get back in the fight.

Then the wizard casts it again.:smalltongue:

Draz74
2010-03-09, 03:12 PM
Oh, because of the [cold] subtype. Energy Substitution can be used to get around that, though.

Really? I thought Shivering Touch explicitly stated that it doesn't work on [Cold] creatures. By RAW, Energy Substitution won't change that.

Vizzerdrix
2010-03-09, 03:12 PM
I thought lesser restoration had a long, long casting time. Or am I thinking of Restoration? :smallconfused:

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-09, 03:18 PM
I thought lesser restoration had a long, long casting time. Or am I thinking of Restoration? :smallconfused:

Lesser Restoration has a casting time of 3 rounds. This seems to be overlooked a lot.

obnoxious
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jiriku
2010-03-09, 03:23 PM
Then the wizard casts it again.:smalltongue:

Exactly. And you have a back-and-forth contest in which the wizard tries to keep the dragon suppressed long enough for his allies to kill it, while the dragon tries to break out of that suppression long enough to generate a body count among the players. This is also known as: lots of fun.:smalltongue:

For that matter, I mostly just addressed blanket immunities before. A dragon with mirror image and displacement up is pretty friggin' hard to hit with a shivering touch in the first place.

IMO, the problem really comes from DMs who try to run a dragon as if it was an ettin or hill giant or some other big, dumb, pile of hit points with a stick. Such opponents always go down quickly, because no matter how tough they seem on paper, they really only have one option in combat: hit it with a stick and hope for the best. Optimizers know why a PC with that sort of build is on a dead-end street, and it doesn't work any better for monsters either.

Any boss monster that can't defend itself against a variety of threats and respond to a variety of different situations will be lucky to live through round 2. DMs who don't get this are the reason people think they have to use the banhammer on every other spell and splatbook, because "it's overpowered". They don't grasp that it's the DM's job to understand the types of threats that a party of adventurers can provide and build boss monsters who can brave that firestorm for at least a few rounds.


Lesser Restoration has a casting time of 3 rounds. This seems to be overlooked a lot.

Good point. However, a sudden stilled restoration is only one level higher and accomplished the same goal even more effectively. Same slow casting time. Cat's grace or bite of the x is better for the purpose.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-09, 03:23 PM
There is no RAW fix for shivering touch even is somehow it was proven a dex zero dragon wasn't helpless. There are plenty of other creatures it crush with out the benefit of a saving throw.

You can list all these possible defenses but that just means the dragon needs to put all this effort into that one protection causing them to neglect other threats. Stuff like mirror image and displacement simply delays a round while the wizard casts true seeing.

The only real solution is ban the spell or nerf it, because it is certainly grossly over-powered forget about its effects on dragons, it can down most PC's no save especially if empowered.

jiriku
2010-03-09, 03:45 PM
You can list all these possible defenses but that just means the dragon needs to put all this effort into that one protection causing them to neglect other threats.
Certainly an opponent who has piled too much of its resources into one defence is under-protected. But which of my suggestions constitute "too much resources"?

Choosing to make your dragon a dracolich, or an awakened fossil dragon, or a topaz dragon, doesn't limit its power at all. Scintillating scales, spell turning, ray deflection, Stand Still, and Knockback are all useful in a variety of situations against a variety of opponents. They'll be valuable even if the PC wizard chose not to prepare shivering touch at all that day. A kobold cleric minion with a few scrolls of restoration handy increases the versatility of the opposition, rather than reducing it: that same kobold can buff his boss with a variety of defensive spells, and can also use battlefield control and blasting magic, or buff himself and enter melee. Paying for a contingent restoration costs gold, but you're simply deducting that from the pile of gold in the dragon's hoard, not sacrificing key pieces of magical gear for it as you would be with a PC.


Stuff like mirror image and displacement simply delays a round while the wizard casts true seeing.
It's true that these spells aren't an ironclad defense. But then, this is D&D - every attack and every defense has a counter. Further, dispelling a spell isn't free - it costs a wizard a 3rd (or higher) level spell slot and a standard (or swift) action. Further still, it isn't guaranteed to work. Now, most PC spellcasters have an edge in caster level against generic CR-appropriate dragons, but me personally, I'm fond of using Practiced Spellcaster on high-HD monsters with limited spellcasting. In addition to the myriad benefits the monster gets from its higher caster level, it tends to make PC casters treat those dispel checks with a little more respect.

And lest we forget, the dragon isn't sitting on his scaly butt waiting to be hit while the PC wizard is dispelling his defenses: he's killing that wizard's allies. Probably with a shivering touch spell that he cast and held as a charge on one of his claws when his kobold minions informed him that adventurers had entered his lair.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 03:46 PM
Those gloves aren't going to stack with the cat's grace effect, but yeah... it's going to take a few Shivering Touches. Meaning you better get them all off in round one.

Congratulations, you just walked into a contigent prismatic spray and contiigent greater restoration. Your factorum is now petrified. The dragon shatters the statue into a million pieces and gates them into the far realm. Roll up a less cheesy character.

Radiun
2010-03-09, 03:47 PM
Stuff like mirror image and displacement simply delays a round while the wizard casts true seeing.

In that round, the wyrmling black dragon (literally the first dragon I found) flew speed of 100ft after using its breath weapon or something (it's a wyrmling, give it a break)
The Wizard already had Fly on? He can fly 60ft in one round
He would need some 40ft to hit the dragon, I imagine reach spell only grants 30.
He can double move to get in the dragon's face, but then the dragon will perform what motorists call a "hit and run".
Playing tag with a dragon isn't always so simple.

jiriku
2010-03-09, 03:58 PM
In that round, the wyrmling black dragon (literally the first dragon I found) flew speed of 100ft after using its breath weapon or something (it's a wyrmling, give it a break)
The Wizard already had Fly on? He can fly 60ft in one round
He would need some 40ft to hit the dragon, I imagine reach spell only grants 30.
He can double move to get in the dragon's face, but then the dragon will perform what motorists call a "hit and run".
Playing tag with a dragon isn't always so simple.

Exactly! Now, not to say that the dragon is going to win this encounter. He's a monster, he's supposed to die, and die he will. Loot will be had by all. But an effectively built dragon will stand up to several rounds of combat, shivering touch notwithstanding, dish out some damage, spring a surprise or two, and generally provide a fun and interesting encounter...which is all you could ask of him.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 03:58 PM
Exactly! Now, not to say that the dragon is going to win this encounter. He's a monster, he's supposed to die, and die he will. Loot will be had by all. But an effectively built dragon will stand up to several rounds of combat, shivering touch notwithstanding, dish out some damage, spring a surprise or two, and generally provide a fun and interesting encounter...which is all you could ask of him.

Ever considered having your PC's lose the campaign? If done well it can be just as fun as them winning.

marjan
2010-03-09, 04:02 PM
Good point. However, a sudden stilled resotration is only one level higher and accomplished the same goal even more effectively.

And still has 3 rounds casting time. Still Dex boosting spell would do the job better.

JaronK
2010-03-09, 04:03 PM
And that's when the dragons of the world get upset and send upon you the most uber dragons in the multiverse. I mean, as a Dungeon Master I would make sure there was some sort of retribution...

Interesting. So when a stealthy killer sneaks up and kills a dragon, the dragons of the world send the most uber of dragons for revenge, but if a group with Fighters and such break down the door and kills one, they don't? Why is that? And how do the dragons of the word of what was done and how? Sounds like a ticked off DM upset that his encounter wasn't hard enough, but why punish the players in such a clearly metagamey way for being creative and playing an assassin character like an assassin?

JaronK

Volkov
2010-03-09, 04:05 PM
Interesting. So when a stealthy killer sneaks up and kills a dragon, the dragons of the world send the most uber of dragons for revenge, but if a group with Fighters and such break down the door and kills one, they don't? Why is that? And how do the dragons of the word of what was done and how? Sounds like a ticked off DM upset that his encounter wasn't hard enough, but why punish the players in such a clearly metagamey way for being creative and playing an assassin character like an assassin?

JaronK

Why? Because the Far realm told them that someone has abused the rules of reality. In that case, not only do dragons attack the factorum, but so do an army of Quaruts.

JaronK
2010-03-09, 04:07 PM
In that round, the wyrmling black dragon (literally the first dragon I found) flew speed of 100ft after using its breath weapon or something (it's a wyrmling, give it a break)
The Wizard already had Fly on? He can fly 60ft in one round

Why isn't he on a phantasmal steed? It's far faster, and has a perfect fly speed.

JaronK

JoshuaZ
2010-03-09, 04:08 PM
Why? Because the Far realm told them that someone has abused the rules of reality. In that case, not only do dragons attack the factorum, but so do an army of Quaruts.

Again that's utterly DM intervention. Nothing that was given in that build was even mildly abusive of weird RAW issues or anything like that. Just fairly simple optimization.

JaronK
2010-03-09, 04:08 PM
Why? Because the Far realm told them that someone has abused the rules of reality. In that case, not only do dragons attack the factorum, but so do an army of Quaruts.

Um, in what way have the rules of reality been abused? A stealthy character snuck up on someone using his class abilities that make him good at that. He then used a spell that someone was vulnerable to, and killed the target, using class abilities that made sure the attack landed home. That's absolutely stock standard in every way.

JaronK

Volkov
2010-03-09, 04:09 PM
Why isn't he on a phantasmal steed? It's far faster, and has a perfect fly speed.

JaronK

Why? Because the Wyrmling's Kobold Cleric accomplice dispelled it.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 04:10 PM
Um, in what way have the rules of reality been abused? A stealthy character snuck up on someone using his class abilities that make him good at that. He then used a spell that someone was vulnerable to, and killed the target, using class abilities that made sure the attack landed home. That's absolutely stock standard in every way.

JaronK

The rules of reality are up to the DM, if the DM so wishes it, RAW can go screw itself. Sure this won't win him many friends and somewhat defeats the purpose of playing a structured game, but still. And most DM's will vehemethly oppose munchinry and in my experience, will bend the rules to prevent it. And if the player in question has used Munchkinry, I fully believe he should be punished quite severely.

JaronK
2010-03-09, 04:11 PM
Why? Because the Wyrmling's Kobold Cleric accomplice dispelled it.

Ah, then the Wizard is in real trouble. He has failed to seize the initiative and ensure that he's the one attacking! He should have been stealthy on the way in so that he flies in quickly with True Seeing on, and can kill the dragon before this pesky Cleric could act. Bad Wizard. Wizards get Celerity and a 240' perfect fly speed for a reason! There's no excuse for waiting until this Cleric can act. He deserves to be in trouble here.

JaronK

Radiun
2010-03-09, 04:12 PM
Why isn't he on a phantasmal steed? It's far faster, and has a perfect fly speed.

JaronK

"The mount has an AC of 18 (-1 size, +4 natural armor, +5 Dex) and 7 hit points +1 hit point per caster level"

It died to a breath weapon / attack / tripping over a stone

JaronK
2010-03-09, 04:14 PM
The rules of reality are up to the DM, if the DM so wishes it, RAW can go screw itself. Sure this won't win him many friends and somewhat defeats the purpose of playing a structured game, but still. And most DM's will vehemethly oppose munchinry and in my experience, will bend the rules to prevent it.

...there was no munchkinery in my scenario at all. That was a stock standard Factotum with Darkstalker, a feat that just lets you hide at high levels (without it, Blindsense and whatnot autodetect you, which is extremely common). Being a munchkin and acting exactly as your class is supposed to are VERY different things. There wasn't even serious optimization there, just a single basic stealth feat that any high level stealther should have.

If a DM got so upset that he sent uber dragons to kill me because I actually assassinated a target with my assassin character, I'd drop the game immediately. I don't like such heavy and obvious versimilitude destroying railroading. If the DM doesn't want me killing something that's obviously set up as a target to kill, he should protect it or let me know that he doesn't want it actually killed so I don't do it. But putting a target right in front of me with a clear "kill this" written on it and then getting ticked off when I successfully do it? Horrifically bad DMing.

JaronK

Vizzerdrix
2010-03-09, 04:14 PM
The rules of reality are up to the DM, if the DM so wishes it, RAW can go screw itself. Sure this won't win him many friends and somewhat defeats the purpose of playing a structured game, but still. And most DM's will vehemethly oppose munchinry and in my experience, will bend the rules to prevent it.


Taking this into account, what sort of douche bag Dm wouldn't give his players a heads up on what spells aren't kosher? Honestly, punishing players for doing something you failed to tell them was a no-no deserves a book to the dome.

JaronK
2010-03-09, 04:15 PM
"The mount has an AC of 18 (-1 size, +4 natural armor, +5 Dex) and 7 hit points +1 hit point per caster level"

It died to a breath weapon / attack / tripping over a stone

Again, you don't give them a chance. Race in and use Celerity to ensure that you get the kill in the surprise round. You generally speaking want to stay back behind the main party, then race forward for the attack.

JaronK

Mystic Muse
2010-03-09, 04:16 PM
Taking this into account, what sort of douche bag Dm wouldn't give his players a heads up on what spells aren't kosher? Honestly, punishing players for doing something you failed to tell them was a no-no deserves a holy hand grenade to the dome.

fixed it for you.:smallbiggrin:

Optimystik
2010-03-09, 04:17 PM
Ever considered having your PC's lose the campaign? If done well it can be just as fun as them winning.

Stealth-nerfing their spellbook and waiting until they are in a difficult encounter to tell them so hardly counts as "done well."

Vizzerdrix
2010-03-09, 04:18 PM
fixed it for you.:smallbiggrin:

Thanks you :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

Volkov
2010-03-09, 04:18 PM
...there was no munchkinery in my scenario at all. That was a stock standard Factotum with Darkstalker, a feat that just lets you hide at high levels (without it, Blindsense and whatnot autodetect you, which is extremely common). Being a munchkin and acting exactly as your class is supposed to are VERY different things. There wasn't even serious optimization there, just a single basic stealth feat that any high level stealther should have.

If a DM got so upset that he sent uber dragons to kill me because I actually assassinated a target with my assassin character, I'd drop the game immediately. I don't like such heavy and obvious versimilitude destroying railroading. If the DM doesn't want me killing something that's obviously set up as a target to kill, he should protect it or let me know that he doesn't want it actually killed so I don't do it. But putting a target right in front of me with a clear "kill this" written on it and then getting ticked off when I successfully do it? Horrifically bad DMing.

JaronK

Dragons are typically very plot important, and killing them off before they were meant to can force a DM to have to scrap hours or even days of hard work. I don't rail-road an awful lot, but the plans I do make are typically very intricate and I don't like major elements of them being disrupted before they were meant to.

However, I'd typically only use a punishment like no snacks for you for the next ten sessions in this case. Which should be enough to discourage it.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 04:20 PM
Stealth-nerfing their spellbook and waiting until they are in a difficult encounter to tell them so hardly counts as "done well."

I only do that to munchkins. Which my group has a similar opinion of, which would be Vile, loathsome beasts who are most certainly not welcome at the table or anywhere where we may gather. Standard cheese gets a snack deduction or has to pay for the next amount of orders.

Radiun
2010-03-09, 04:21 PM
Again, you don't give them a chance. Race in and use Celerity to ensure that you get the kill in the surprise round. You generally speaking want to stay back behind the main party, then race forward for the attack.

JaronK

And why is the dragon a idiot who will not notice an entire party of V.I.P.s (as we're presuming high level due to celerity) trotting into his lair?
I mean the darkstalker is one thing, but this is now apparently a group of people. I'm willing to be not all of them are stealth-buffs

Radiun
2010-03-09, 04:22 PM
Dragons are typically very plot important, and killing them off before they were meant to can force a DM to have to scrap hours or even days of hard work. I don't rail-road an awful lot, but the plans I do make are typically very intricate and I don't like major elements of them being disrupted before they were meant to.

However, I'd typically only use a punishment like no snacks for you for the next ten sessions in this case. Which should be enough to discourage it.

Would you say you are a flexible DM? (Just curious, you come off as stiff)

Mystic Muse
2010-03-09, 04:23 PM
Thanks you :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

welcome. In return you must find us

A SHRUBBERY!

Tyndmyr
2010-03-09, 04:25 PM
The rules of reality are up to the DM, if the DM so wishes it, RAW can go screw itself. Sure this won't win him many friends and somewhat defeats the purpose of playing a structured game, but still. And most DM's will vehemethly oppose munchinry and in my experience, will bend the rules to prevent it. And if the player in question has used Munchkinry, I fully believe he should be punished quite severely.

Sneaking /= Munchkinry.

Using a spell for it's intended purpose /= Munchkinry.

Im pretty sure this ends up being DM fiat punishment, and any attempts to justify it as "breaking the rules of reality" come across as rather implausible justifications for the crime of "not doing what the DM wanted".

Volkov
2010-03-09, 04:25 PM
Would you say you are a flexible DM? (Just curious, you come off as stiff)

I don't plan much outside of overarching storylines. The little to medium-large sized plot....things are made up on the fly. I prefer sandboxing in moderation.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-09, 04:26 PM
Dragons are typically very plot important, and killing them off before they were meant to can force a DM to have to scrap hours or even days of hard work. I don't rail-road an awful lot, but the plans I do make are typically very intricate and I don't like major elements of them being disrupted before they were meant to.

However, I'd typically only use a punishment like no snacks for you for the next ten sessions in this case. Which should be enough to discourage it.

So now in game behavior results in out of game punishments concerning food?

Frankly, if a player screws up your planning by doing a totally in character activity then that indicates you didn't plan very well.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 04:27 PM
So now in game behavior results in out of game punishments concerning food?

Frankly, if a player screws up your planning by doing a totally in character activity then that indicates you didn't plan very well.

Typically, and going through a 6-12 hour session without anything to eat is very brutal.

Oslecamo
2010-03-09, 04:29 PM
Sneaking /= Munchkinry.

Using a spell for it's intended purpose /= Munchkinry.

Im pretty sure this ends up being DM fiat punishment, and any attempts to justify it as "breaking the rules of reality" come across as rather implausible justifications for the crime of "not doing what the DM wanted".

On the other hand, a dragon that lives in an easy to find and reach cave and doesn't fill it with traps and minions is also rather inplausive. If the dragon can't afford those, then he swallows his pride and hides untill he can do so.

traps/= DM fiat

smart monsters using their abilities smartly/= DM fiat

Volkov's examples may be a little exagerated, but a dragon standing and drooling in the open naked and unbuffed for anyone to sneak near him isn't much more realistic.

JaronK
2010-03-09, 04:35 PM
Dragons are typically very plot important, and killing them off before they were meant to can force a DM to have to scrap hours or even days of hard work. I don't rail-road an awful lot, but the plans I do make are typically very intricate and I don't like major elements of them being disrupted before they were meant to.

Then you should have made it clear that dragon wasn't a target in advance, or defended it well in game. Your fault as a DM, not mine as a player.


However, I'd typically only use a punishment like no snacks for you for the next ten sessions in this case. Which should be enough to discourage it.

That's nice, you don't get to control such things. You're sounding like a horrific control freak. Multiplanar uber dragons or "you can't eat, HAHA!" either way I'm leaving and going to a better group (which I already have two of, so that's fine).

JaronK

JaronK
2010-03-09, 04:38 PM
On the other hand, a dragon that lives in an easy to find and reach cave and doesn't fill it with traps and minions is also rather inplausive. If the dragon can't afford those, then he swallows his pride and hides untill he can do so.

Well yeah. A dragon, especially one that's supposed to be an uber boss, should be well defended. I have far more objections to "you killed my monster, I make you starve in real life!" than "the dragon was better protected than you thought, here's what's in your way."


traps/= DM fiat

Won't stop a Factotum for obvious reasons.


smart monsters using their abilities smartly/= DM fiat

This one, for sure. I actually made a Red Dragon that used Hallucinatory Terrain to make his lair look icey, and kept up illusions to look like a White Dragon. That alone was amazing defense (though he had more than that). No one thought to use Shivering Touch on him, and they all underestimated his intelligence.


Volkov's examples may be a little exagerated, but a dragon standing and drooling in the open naked and unbuffed for anyone to sneak near him isn't much more realistic.

No, that would be silly too. I'd expect some minions, some traps, some deception, perhaps spies in the local towns who inform him if anyone asks about the dragon, and so on. Dragons aren't idiots.

JaronK

Volkov
2010-03-09, 04:39 PM
Then you should have made it clear that dragon wasn't a target in advance, or defended it well in game. Your fault as a DM, not mine as a player.



That's nice, you don't get to control such things. You're sounding like a horrific control freak. Multiplanar uber dragons or "you can't eat, HAHA!" either way I'm leaving and going to a better group (which I already have two of, so that's fine).

JaronK

I am very popular with my own group because my policies keeps away the hated munchkins, and I make very good stories. Plus, I own my house, so I do think I possess a good deal of control over that.

But each to his own.

Godskook
2010-03-09, 04:40 PM
Unless it's an great wyrm epic force dragon who rolled an 18 for dex, has used wish 5 times on his dex score, has a pair of +12 gloves of dexterity, and a permanancied cats grace. Then your dinky level 11 factorum is dead meat. And yes, I'd toss one at you at level 11 for using that munchkin build. Heck at level 11 or even earlier, I'll ask for your character sheet and build a dragon to kill your character with minimal effort. Just for munchinry, which is a serious crime at my table, punishable by character death, or being shunned by the entire table.

The hell? I need to figure out what the RP-equivalent of a munchkin is.

Is that your same reaction to a Psion dropping a maximized ego whip on the same dragon?

Tyndmyr
2010-03-09, 04:42 PM
On the other hand, a dragon that lives in an easy to find and reach cave and doesn't fill it with traps and minions is also rather inplausive. If the dragon can't afford those, then he swallows his pride and hides untill he can do so.

Agreed. If your plot-centric dragon is easily killable, and you get pissed when the players actually do so....well, you're a crappy DM. Players tend to kill things. A lot.


traps/= DM fiat

True. I doubt a factotum cares.


smart monsters using their abilities smartly/= DM fiat

Which has nothing to do with withholding snacks, and sending a swarm of dragons to punish the player.


Volkov's examples may be a little exagerated, but a dragon standing and drooling in the open naked and unbuffed for anyone to sneak near him isn't much more realistic.

Shivering Touch is situational, yes. Many "overpowered" options are merely quite handy when DMs opt to use a more complex, layered encounter.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-09, 04:42 PM
Typically, and going through a 6-12 hour session without anything to eat is very brutal.

Ugh. Very glad I don't play with you.

Punishing people in real life for roleplaying exactly as their character reasonably would and claiming that a fairly weak, situational feat is "muchkinry"? Yeah. Count me out.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 04:44 PM
The hell? I need to figure out what the RP-equivalent of a munchkin is.

Is that your same reaction to a Psion dropping a maximized ego whip on the same dragon?

I'm not quite familiar with ego whips, what do they do exactly?

Vizzerdrix
2010-03-09, 04:47 PM
welcome. In return you must find us

A SHRUBBERY!



http://www.highhatstudios.com/imgs_ext/lolrats/macros/shrubbery.jpg

JoshuaZ
2010-03-09, 04:47 PM
I'm not quite familiar with ego whips, what do they do exactly?

Ego Whip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/egoWhip.htm), every psion's favorite charisma damage power. The really nice thing is that it still does half damage on a failed save.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-09, 04:54 PM
Ever considered having your PC's lose the campaign? If done well it can be just as fun as them winning.

Lose != Kill. You don't have to kill the party to make them feel like they've lost the game (crap).


Why? Because the Far realm told them that someone has abused the rules of reality. In that case, not only do dragons attack the factorum, but so do an army of Quaruts.

DM Fiat. Why would the Inevitables bother informing the Dragons? And why would Quaruts (beings specifically designed to mess with people who seek godhood)? This just reeks of bad DMing skills.


The rules of reality are up to the DM, if the DM so wishes it, RAW can go screw itself. Sure this won't win him many friends and somewhat defeats the purpose of playing a structured game, but still. And most DM's will vehemethly oppose munchinry and in my experience, will bend the rules to prevent it. And if the player in question has used Munchkinry, I fully believe he should be punished quite severely.

OK, now I know for sure you're a bad DM. Shivering Touch isn't Munchkinery, it's a Save or Die. There are ways to defend against the spell without even having to cast anything (having the Cold subtype, something an entire subset of Dragons have).

Secondly, Your Experience != The Law of Averages.


You honestly sound like a knee-jerker to me. If a PC used Shivering Touch in my campaign, I'd just shrug it off and throw something else at him, something that may or may not be able to defend against it.

If it so happens that the creature they killed was plot-relevant, I simply don't tell them and rewrite things so they either get the plot done (if they want) or are free to do as they please. I don't go out of my way to punish people, especially OOC for IC actions. That's something my little brother does.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 04:56 PM
Ego Whip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/egoWhip.htm), every psion's favorite charisma damage power. The really nice thing is that it still does half damage on a failed save.

Isn't cha one of the stats a dragon is going to buff a lot? Given it's sorcerer casting powers.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-09, 04:58 PM
Isn't cha one of the stats a dragon is going to buff a lot? Given it's sorcerer casting powers.

Yes. One of the nice things about Ego Whipping dragons is in fact how they lose the ability to cast higher level spells pretty quickly.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-09, 04:59 PM
Isn't cha one of the stats a dragon is going to buff a lot? Given it's sorcerer casting powers.

Well, assuming he tooks the whip, likely after a good debuff by the party, is not a good new for him have its save DC lowered and all the things.

Maybe he melees and only has buffs, buf if the Cha damage is high, he could have lost the access to high level tricks.

Mystic Muse
2010-03-09, 05:03 PM
http://www.highhatstudios.com/imgs_ext/lolrats/macros/shrubbery.jpg

Yay! A shrubbery!:smallbiggrin:

I present to you A cookie! or you can has cheezburger.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 05:04 PM
Lose != Kill. You don't have to kill the party to make them feel like they've lost the game (crap).



DM Fiat. Why would the Inevitables bother informing the Dragons? And why would Quaruts (beings specifically designed to mess with people who seek godhood)? This just reeks of bad DMing skills.

Quaruts deal with reality warpers.

OK, now I know for sure you're a bad DM. Shivering Touch isn't Munchkinery, it's a Save or Die. There are ways to defend against the spell without even having to cast anything (having the Cold subtype, something an entire subset of Dragons have).

Secondly, Your Experience != The Law of Averages.


You honestly sound like a knee-jerker to me. If a PC used Shivering Touch in my campaign, I'd just shrug it off and throw something else at him, something that may or may not be able to defend against it.

If it so happens that the creature they killed was plot-relevant, I simply don't tell them and rewrite things so they either get the plot done (if they want) or are free to do as they please. I don't go out of my way to punish people, especially OOC for IC actions. That's something my little brother does.
Nothing plot essential to the plot ever dies unless I want it to, ever. I ensure it is protected with everything within reason. Munchinry and cheese are almost never done in IC, Ic screw ups are dealt with by Ic punishments. But if the line is crossed too much and you can't be reasoned with by me or the others, me and the other players will decide on whether or not to outright ban you and forevermore exclude you from our social circle. Never to return or be forgiven.

Oslecamo
2010-03-09, 05:04 PM
Well, assuming he tooks the whip, likely after a good debuff by the party, is not a good new for him have its save DC lowered and all the things.

Maybe he melees and only has buffs, buf if the Cha damage is high, he could have lost the access to high level tricks.

That's for what breath weapons are for. They're con based, so even if the spellcasting is crippled, he can still incinerate the party.

Plus dragons have a lot of HD and all good saves, so debuffing them to make way for a save or die is no easy task.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-09, 05:09 PM
Ego Whip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/egoWhip.htm), every psion's favorite charisma damage power. The really nice thing is that it still does half damage on a failed save.

Of course Shivering Touch has no save, and deals 3d6 damage while ego whip is only a 1d4+1d4 per 4P.P. You need to be a decently high level psion for your ego whip to match the damage done by shivering touch.

Ego Whip is good, but it doesn't hold a candle to Shivering touch

As for debuffing a dragon for a save or die, split rayed, empowered enervation.
1d4x1.5, then a finger of death.
Though still not as efficient as a single empowered shivering touch.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-09, 05:10 PM
That's for what breath weapons are for. They're con based, so even if the spellcasting is crippled, he can still incinerate the party.

Plus dragons have a lot of HD and all good saves, so debuffing them to make way for a save or die is no easy task.

Sometimes you debuff them just to no die horribly. :smalltongue:

But, even if I ruled ST as above, I generally agree on the fact that a Dragon is definitively too badass to be screwed quickly, barring extreme cases.

So, built them with care (they deserve it) and the fight will be memorable.

Recently, I had a blast with my players exactly with breath weapons: the Dragon was optimized about his BW, and players were scarce in resource: they had to be smart about the use of bows, alchemical items, bluff checks, an approaching "full towershielded" charger, the corrideor between four large rooms, a passwall and an AMF combined with prepared actions to make himss "waste" his breath weapon and start the fight without sure death.

Really memorable.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-09, 05:10 PM
Nothing plot essential to the plot ever dies unless I want it to, ever. I ensure it is protected with everything within reason. Munchinry and cheese are almost never done in IC, Ic screw ups are dealt with by Ic punishments. But if the line is crossed too much and you can't be reasoned with by me or the others, me and the other players will decide on whether or not to outright ban you and forevermore exclude you from our social circle. Never to return or be forgiven.

You still haven't explained how a factotum doing what they do well IC is somehow munchkinry.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 05:14 PM
You still haven't explained how a factotum doing what they do well IC is somehow munchkinry.

Killing my main villain long before the final encounter is going to screw up my plan, and a level 11 character taking out a CR 20+ monster is most certainly munchkiining. And I'd have you need to get by a kobold cleric cohort, and a lizardfolk cleric minion. Both of whom have several levels above you.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-09, 05:14 PM
Nothing plot essential to the plot ever dies unless I want it to, ever. I ensure it is protected with everything within reason. Munchinry and cheese are almost never done in IC, Ic screw ups are dealt with by Ic punishments. But if the line is crossed too much and you can't be reasoned with by me or the others, me and the other players will decide on whether or not to outright ban you and forevermore exclude you from our social circle. Never to return or be forgiven.

And I'm officially convinced, I'm done with this thread.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 05:17 PM
Of course Shivering Touch has no save, and deals 3d6 damage while ego whip is only a 1d4+1d4 per 4P.P. You need to be a decently high level psion for your ego whip to match the damage done by shivering touch.

Ego Whip is good, but it doesn't hold a candle to Shivering touch

As for debuffing a dragon for a save or die, split rayed, empowered enervation.
1d4x1.5, then a finger of death.
Though still not as efficient as a single empowered shivering touch.

Your factorum gets hit with heighthened destruction from the kobold cleric cohort. What's your saving throw? Is it 32? No? Well then you're dead.

AslanCross
2010-03-09, 05:20 PM
I still think Shivering Touch is only going to kill a badly played dragon.

If every DM plays every dragon in their campaign like Smaug--that is, sleeping on a pile of treasure in a cave too small to fly in--then they deserve to get their dragons whacked by a spell like this, and this spell is crazy broken.

However, if the dragon, having cast scintillating scales before hand, repeatedly strafes the party, blasting the caster with its breath until he stops moving, then I don't think Shivering Touch is such an issue. I prefer to run dragons that fight on their terms, using terrain to their advantage and casting spells that will actually protect them from the tricks they've heard mortals use.

Of course, that doesn't mean WOTC actually thought about the repercussions of a spell like this. :smallannoyed:

(I believe this is known as the Oberoni Fallacy, if we were to stick to the realm of pure argument. Rules in D&D are meant to be put into practice, however.)

The spell is poorly edited besides.

Oslecamo
2010-03-09, 05:21 PM
As for debuffing a dragon for a save or die, split rayed, empowered enervation.
1d4x1.5, then a finger of death.
Though still not as efficient as a single empowered shivering touch.

Ok, empowered shivering touch demands level 9. At that level a young adult black dragon can fly at speed 150 feet and his breath weapon has 80 feets reach. Even with spectral hand, the dragon can breath you from outside your shivering touch range. Maximized empowered deals 60 damage. Your average wizard at level 9 has 43 HP.

Of course, it could be something like a silver dragon, that has a save or die breath and you cannot save if he uses metabreath. And can outrange spectral hand.

TaintedLight
2010-03-09, 05:22 PM
Unless it's an great wyrm epic force dragon who rolled an 18 for dex, has used wish 5 times on his dex score, has a pair of +12 gloves of dexterity, and a permanancied cats grace. Then your dinky level 11 factorum is dead meat. And yes, I'd toss one at you at level 11 for using that munchkin build. Heck at level 11 or even earlier, I'll ask for your character sheet and build a dragon to kill your character with minimal effort. Just for munchinry, which is a serious crime at my table, punishable by character death, or being shunned by the entire table.

I think there's a reasonable difference between munchkinry and careful planning. I wholeheartedly agree that roleplaying is more important than crunch or cheese (I presume you feel this way?), but killing somebody for employing effective tactics is overkill in my opinion.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-09, 05:22 PM
Killing my main villain long before the final encounter is going to screw up my plan, and a level 11 character taking out a CR 20+ monster is most certainly munchkiining. And I'd have you need to get by a kobold cleric cohort, and a lizardfolk cleric minion. Both of whom have several levels above you.

And he sneaks by the two of them fine. Moreover, there are a lot of ways for a level 11 character to kill a CR 20 monster. Some of them are just more likely to work than others. Slay Living for example is a 5th level spell. I isn't that likely to kill someone but it can do so.

How are you defining munchkin? Most people define munchkining as involving either deliberate rule abuse, cheating, or focus on ridiculous power builds using lots of different books without any attention to RPing.

In the case given with the factotum, the factotum did exactly what he should have done in character, with a single low level spell and a single feat.

How are you defining munchkinry?

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-09, 05:25 PM
How are you defining munchkinry?

Does this give you a clue?


Killing my main villain long before the final encounter is going to screw up my plan

Optimystik
2010-03-09, 05:27 PM
factorum


factorum

FYI, the class is called "Factotum."

And if you and your players find yourselves in an arms race, it's a good time to stop playing and talk things out, no?

Volkov
2010-03-09, 05:27 PM
And he sneaks by the two of them fine. Moreover, there are a lot of ways for a level 11 character to kill a CR 20 monster. Some of them are just more likely to work than others. Slay Living for example is a 5th level spell. I isn't that likely to kill someone but it can do so.

How are you defining munchkin? Most people define munchkining as involving either deliberate rule abuse, cheating, or focus on ridiculous power builds using lots of different books without any attention to RPing.

In the case given with the factotum, the factotum did exactly what he should have done in character, with a single low level spell and a single feat.

How are you defining munchkinry?
Deliberatly lying to the DM for your own gain, rule abuse, doing something that really shouldn't happen at your level, cheating, abusing certain spells or feats, and the manipulation of other players OOCly for your own gain.

AslanCross
2010-03-09, 05:27 PM
I don't think this argument about Volkov's DMing style is going to get us anywhere. :P

Foryn Gilnith
2010-03-09, 05:28 PM
Based on what Volkov has posted, I wouldn't want to play D&D with him. But there's no need to be so harsh. Shivering Touch is pretty clearly munchkinry (IMO). As is Incantatrix or Tainted Scholar. All require only a single book, all are rules-legal in their "abuse", and all can be easily justified in-character. But they press heavily on the boundaries of system balance.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-09, 05:28 PM
Deliberatly lying to the DM for your own gain, rule abuse, doing something that really shouldn't happen at your level, cheating, abusing certain spells or feats, and the manipulation of other players OOCly for your own gain.

How is casting Shivering Touch on one Dragon abusing the spell?

Radiun
2010-03-09, 05:29 PM
I don't think this argument about Volkov's DMing style is going to get us anywhere. :P

pish posh, if we stay in character and get our RP experience, it might get us to level 3. Skill Focus[Farming] here I come!

Mystic Muse
2010-03-09, 05:29 PM
rule abuse, doing something that really shouldn't happen at your level, abusing certain spells or feats,

all of these are subjective and from what I've read of you in this thread I don't think I trust you enough to make a reasonable judgement.

In other words, I'm not going to be playing in one of your games anytime soon.

EDIT: what about incantatrix is broken again?

Volkov
2010-03-09, 05:31 PM
FYI, the class is called "Factotum."

And if you and your players find yourselves in an arms race, it's a good time to stop playing and talk things out, no?

I rarely need to do so because my table regulars are far more likely to resort to unsavory means to deal with those they perceive as munchkins, I do prefer to talk, but I am much too afraid of my regulars to interrupt them if they're having a bad day.

TaintedLight
2010-03-09, 05:32 PM
Deliberatly lying to the DM for your own gain, rule abuse, doing something that really shouldn't happen at your level, cheating, abusing certain spells or feats, and the manipulation of other players OOCly for your own gain.

Some spells are just hard not to abuse. Shivering Touch is one of those, since it just does a preposterous amount of Dex damage. There are a lot of things that aren't dragons that will fall to it.

As for "things that shouldn't happen at your level"? I disagree with the idea that this should be in any way a concrete thing. A clever party that comes up with an ingenious solution (that doesn't involve rules abuse or broken infinite combos and the like) to a difficult problem should be rewarded, not TPK'd for their trouble. If you had no intention of them being able to overcome the challenge in the first place, you're just being unfair to them by forcing them to fight it out. Really, they either have a chance and could do something clever or they were doomed because you wanted to kill them from the start.

Lying and cheating shouldn't ever be part of the game, and those are a whole different issue. I'd definitely warn a player who I found to be cheating to stop, but it's not really grounds for being booted from my social circle forever.

jiriku
2010-03-09, 05:32 PM
And still has 3 rounds casting time. Still Dex boosting spell would do the job better.

Ack. I should really play clerics more often. I'm going to go with your Dex-boosting spell.


@ Sinfire Titan: ST, I'm noticing that your head-desk count is really going up rather quickly. I hope you have at least a felt-covered wrist-rest in front of your keyboard to pound your head on, or I fear for the comfort and safety of your noggin.


@ Volkov: It seems the real issue for you is not so much that shivering touch is a good spell, or that dragons must be optimized to defend against it effectively, but that it constitutes power, and when players gain power, you lose control.

For everyone reading this thread who is nodding along and thinking "I DM just like Volkov does", I'd recommend borrowing a simple tool from the Mutants and Masterminds RPG. In M&M, when the DM wants to railroad the players, he simply declares it to be so and gives each player a Plot Point, which they can later use to automatically succeed at one task.

So, for example, if the assassin tries to shivering touch the dragon at an inappropriate point in the plot, the DM responds with "powerful magic deflects your spell, and it fails. You cannot defeat this foe at this time. Gain one plot point." Or perhaps "as you prepare to cast, the dragon breathes a cone of sleep gas on the party. Everyone falls asleep. When you awake, you are all imprisoned in the basement of a gladiatorial arena. Everyone gains one plot point."

This system allows the DM to move the plot along predetermined rails without fear of disruption from the players. However, because you establish a formal system for railroading ahead of time, in which the players get something back whenever you auto-fail their actions, everything happens aboveboard and its easy to get buy-in from your players. No banhammer. No hurt feelings. No fuss.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-03-09, 05:32 PM
How is casting Shivering Touch on one Dragon abusing the spell?

The same way consuming drugs like cocaine (the intended and intuitive use of such) counts as drug abuse. Shivering Touch is questionably balanced, regardless of whether or not the user is looking for spells to break in half (like Planar Binding, for example), and using it at all when the campaign isn't at an appropriate power bracket may constitute abuse.

TaintedLight
2010-03-09, 05:33 PM
what about incantatrix is broken again?

Essentially the whole everything. Every level of incantatrix is excellent win basically, giving you four bonus MM feats in 10 levels, a global metamagic cost reduction of one, and the ability to steal spells from other casters. You're like a wizard, but better in every single way.

Mystic Muse
2010-03-09, 05:36 PM
Essentially the whole everything. Every level of incantatrix is excellent win basically, giving you four bonus MM feats in 10 levels, a global metamagic cost reduction of one, and the ability to steal spells from other casters. You're like a wizard, but better in every single way.

ah. Well the class doesn't fit my character concept so I don't really care how good it is.

Superglucose
2010-03-09, 05:42 PM
It is worth noting that a lot of spells are overpowered, at least for their level. At level 3 shivering touch is too good because you have access to it at level 5. Yes, when you're against the CR 15 dragon you have troubles getting it off, but it does absurd things to not-dragons as well as dragons.

Banning it or soft-banning it (by changing its rules slightly) isn't "bad GMing" (nor do I think anyone was trying to claim it was), but I think the issue here is to keep in mind that Shivering Touch isn't 9th level spell powerful, but it is almost certainly better than a level 3 spot should be.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-09, 05:42 PM
Ok, empowered shivering touch demands level 9. At that level a young adult black dragon can fly at speed 150 feet and his breath weapon has 80 feets reach. Even with spectral hand, the dragon can breath you from outside your shivering touch range. Maximized empowered deals 60 damage. Your average wizard at level 9 has 43 HP.

Of course, it could be something like a silver dragon, that has a save or die breath and you cannot save if he uses metabreath. And can outrange spectral hand.

If your fighting a dragon like that, at that level your DM needs to be smacked for trying to overwhelm the party with a challenge well above there level. Forget CR, If the dragon can kill you that easily it shouldn't be sent against you. I say a grown dragons CR is two or three points higher if encountered in an area where it can manuveer. And most of the stuff from Draconomicon makes dragons grossly over powered for there CR fairly easily.

And the idea that a dragon will have room in its lair to maneuver to well is ridiculous as the cavern required would be massive. Which is why you never ever fight a dragon in open air. Unless you have a sure fire way to eliminate its ability to fly.

When ever your fighting a dragon your going to have to deal with its defenses and tactics, but once those are overcome Shivering Touch is MUCH more powerful and option then finger of death, beating its hit points down or just about any other option.
Remember the defenses to Shivering Touch apply to just about EVERYTHING the party can throw at him.

As I said before dragons are beside the point Shivering Touch can kill most non dex based NPC's with ease. No amount of posturing about defenses will change the fact Shivering Touch is grossly overpowered for its level.

Flickerdart
2010-03-09, 05:43 PM
You're like a wizard, but better in every single way.
The same goes for any full casting PrC, because Wizards just don't get anything for staying in-class. Incantatrix forces the player to either specialize or give up schools, I forget which, so it's not like it's free. It's powerful, but it's nowhere near Tainted Scholar powerful.

jiriku
2010-03-09, 05:43 PM
EDIT: what about incantatrix is broken again?

Incantantatrix isn't inherently broken, in the sense that it doesn't automatically break a game like a persistent time stop would or an unlimited gate with no xp cost. But it greases the wheels of the most powerful class in the game, exaggerating the power imbalance between classes.

Imagine a party with a wizard in it, and several unoptimized low-tier characters. Now give the wizard two more metamagic feats, make all his metamagic cheaper, and give him a way to use metamagic without paying for it at all.

If everyone else in the party is using a highly optimized character, the incantatrix blends in well. But in most parties I've played in (and I've played two incantatrices to high levels in different groups) the incantatrix's player must use his power very carefully and very selectively, or the other characters are rendered irrelevant and their players don't have a good time.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-09, 05:44 PM
Deliberatly lying to the DM for your own gain, rule abuse, doing something that really shouldn't happen at your level, cheating, abusing certain spells or feats, and the manipulation of other players OOCly for your own gain.

So using shivering touch on a dragon falls into which of these categories?


Deliberatly lying to the DM for your own gain

Don't see that here. I'm incidentally curious if lying to DM for someone else's gain is somehow more ok.


rule abuse

You mean like a commoner railgun or drowning yourself to restore hitpoints?
Don't see that here.


doing something that really shouldn't happen at your level

I suspect this is what you are talking about. So I need to ask what does that mean? For example, if first level players manage to trick a high level monster into a tunnel they've set to collapse on it, would that be ok or not ok?

In general is clever behavior inherently munchinry under your definition?


cheating,

Not relevant here.


abusing certain spells or feats

What constitutes abuse? And what constitutes "certain" spells? Moreover, if certain spells specifically are problems why are they not just banned?


and the manipulation of other players OOCly for your own gain.

Ok. Not relevant to our example.

So I guess we need to focus on what constitutes doing things that you shouldn't eb able to do at your level, what that means and why you think it is munchkinry. A definition of abuse would also be helpful.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-03-09, 05:44 PM
I am very popular with my own group because my policies keeps away the hated munchkins, and I make very good stories.

It seems that your policies may keep away people other than "the hated munchkins", and strongly offend people who are having their behavior characterized as munchkinry.
But to each his own, I suppose. Given the sort of stories you tell about your group, it's rather deviant anyway (what level were the characters that were fighting that penguin?), so no great loss to anyone who couldn't fit in.


Forget CR, If the dragon can kill you that easily it shouldn't be sent against you.
What if the DM isn't the one initiating the altercation?




I rarely need to do so because my table regulars are far more likely to resort to unsavory means to deal with those they perceive as munchkins, I do prefer to talk, but I am much too afraid of my regulars to interrupt them if they're having a bad day.

So I guess we need to focus on what constitutes doing things that you shouldn't eb able to do at your level, what that means and why you think it is munchkinry. A definition of abuse would also be helpful.
I think that these would be defined as "whatever Volkov's group feels like". DM isn't the only person at the table with authority. Peer pressure and all that.

TaintedLight
2010-03-09, 05:47 PM
The same goes for any full casting PrC, because Wizards just don't get anything for staying in-class. Incantatrix forces the player to either specialize or give up schools, I forget which, so it's not like it's free. It's powerful, but it's nowhere near Tainted Scholar powerful.

Boo frickety hoo? Seriously, it's such a meaningless difference in power at that point. The Tainted Scholar thing can also be DM Fiat'd rather easily. "You've racked up massive taint? Oh, too bad you're insane now and an NPC."

Foryn Gilnith
2010-03-09, 05:48 PM
Boo frickety hoo?


Well, that's an interesting new expression. :smalltongue:

jiriku
2010-03-09, 05:50 PM
It is worth noting that a lot of spells are overpowered, at least for their level. At level 3 shivering touch is too good because you have access to it at level 5. Yes, when you're against the CR 15 dragon you have troubles getting it off, but it does absurd things to not-dragons as well as dragons.

Banning it or soft-banning it (by changing its rules slightly) isn't "bad GMing" (nor do I think anyone was trying to claim it was), but I think the issue here is to keep in mind that Shivering Touch isn't 9th level spell powerful, but it is almost certainly better than a level 3 spot should be.

You sigged me! I'm so proud. Would you please edit your sig to read "DMs who don't get this are the reason people think they..." This will hide my typing error from the masses. :smalltongue:

Also, I would concur: while not stupid-good-powerful like polymorph, shivering touch is still a good bargain as a 4th level spell, although I don't think I'd have much use for it if it were 5th level. Moving it up to 4th level is a reasonable nerf for DMs who desire lower-power campaigns.

TaintedLight
2010-03-09, 05:52 PM
Well, that's an interesting new expression. :smalltongue:

Alas, it is not of my own creation. I first heard that one from my dad :p.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 05:54 PM
It seems that your policies may keep away people other than "the hated munchkins", and strongly offend people who are having their behavior characterized as munchkinry.
But to each his own, I suppose. Given the sort of stories you tell about your group, it's rather deviant anyway (what level were the characters that were fighting that penguin?), so no great loss to anyone who couldn't fit in.


What if the DM isn't the one initiating the altercation?





I think that these would be defined as "whatever Volkov's group feels like". DM isn't the only person at the table with authority. Peer pressure and all that.
Back in the days of the killer penguin, I wasn't a DM, me and some of my best friends did a series of campaigns for seven years with the same DM. Saiid DM being my closest friend. After the last campaign we broke up to DM our own games, but we all used the setting he used for all the campaigns.

Icewraith
2010-03-09, 05:55 PM
Just wanted to mention someone's expounding on the usefulness of shivering touch by casting it multiple times.

IIRC, going off basic spell stacking rules, if you hit a target twice with shivering touch, only the spell with the higher damage will apply, much in the same way you can use resist energy to resist fire or cold, but not both at once. If you wanted to deal more dex damage to the target you'd need to find a different spell to cast, since the spell description doesn't say the effects stack (unlike Ennervation or Ray of Exhaustion, for example)

So yes, the spell still probably one-shots an unprepared, unaware dragon sitting in the middle of a field with no detection spells, no guards, and no minions. And if you manage to get it off against a prepared dragon, odds are in your favor the dragon is reduced to 0 dex. But rod of quicken/maximize and then rod of maximize again cheese will not one-shot a balor, but you will have sufficiently hindered the demon by dropping its dex score a maximum of 18 points.

Arcane thesis empowered twinned ennervation followed up by unluck followed by save-or-lose of your choice is a still cheesy, but far more rules-legal way of accomplishing the job. And costs somewhat more appropriate spell slots as well.

Frosty
2010-03-09, 05:55 PM
How is casting Shivering Touch on one Dragon abusing the spell?

It's not. The spell itself is just too powerful for its level. Now if it were a level 9 spell it'd be fine. As a level 3 spell, it ought to be 3d6 Dex Penalty (not damage), Fort Save for half.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-09, 05:57 PM
What if the DM isn't the one initiating the altercation?

As I said it shouldn't be sent against you, as in a planned encounter for the adventure where your suppose to fight it. If the PC decides to pick a fight with something way more powerful then it, well they deserve what ever happens to them.

Years ago in my first D&D campaign I ran, I had this PC playing a chaotic neutral gnome druid I think. The gnome loved to hit people over the back of the head with chairs, so at 5th level he walks into the bar looking for a target.

He chose the Lizardman Fighter Zorr who I had said five minutes ago was a legendary warrior and considered one of the most powerful fighters in the entire world. The gnome spent the remainder of the day tied to a flag pool. Well not so much a flag pool, Zorr tied him to a spear and simply impaled it in the castle wall.

It's not. The spell itself is just too powerful for its level. Now if it were a level 9 spell it'd be fine. As a level 3 spell, it ought to be 3d6 Dex Penalty (not damage), Fort Save for half.

Yep Shivering Touch is actually best use as a standard encounter spell, where the enemies won't have good piles of defenses. A very useful no save and die for many mooks.

The Glyphstone
2010-03-09, 05:58 PM
Just wanted to mention someone's expounding on the usefulness of shivering touch by casting it multiple times.

IIRC, going off basic spell stacking rules, if you hit a target twice with shivering touch, only the spell with the higher damage will apply, much in the same way you can use resist energy to resist fire or cold, but not both at once. If you wanted to deal more dex damage to the target you'd need to find a different spell to cast, since the spell description doesn't say the effects stack (unlike Ennervation or Ray of Exhaustion, for example)

So yes, the spell still probably one-shots an unprepared, unaware dragon sitting in the middle of a field with no detection spells, no guards, and no minions. And if you manage to get it off against a prepared dragon, odds are in your favor the dragon is reduced to 0 dex. But rod of quicken/maximize and then rod of maximize again cheese will not one-shot a balor, but you will have sufficiently hindered the demon by dropping its dex score a maximum of 18 points.

Arcane thesis empowered twinned ennervation followed up by unluck followed by save-or-lose of your choice is a still cheesy, but far more rules-legal way of accomplishing the job. And costs somewhat more appropriate spell slots as well.

That's like saying if you cast two Fireballs at a target, it would only take damage from one of them...damage is damage in most cases, whether it's to HP or ability scores.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 05:58 PM
It's not. The spell itself is just too powerful for its level. Now if it were a level 9 spell it'd be fine. As a level 3 spell, it ought to be 3d6 Dex Penalty (not damage), Fort Save for half.

How about the target get's to use it's best saving thhrow and on success they aren't affected at all, in addition to it only giving a penalty. And it's subject to SR.

Superglucose
2010-03-09, 05:59 PM
You sigged me! I'm so proud. Would you please edit your sig to read "DMs who don't get this are the reason people think they..." This will hide my typing error from the masses. :smalltongue:

I mostly did it to point out to a GM I have that letting me alter self into a Troglodyte isn't horribly game-maiming, it just makes the wizard that he wasn't attacking anyways slightly more resistant to stray arrows.

In the meantime he's throwing a party of level 4 against creatures that auto-drain two levels on a successful melee attack. I kind of feel like pointing to those encounters and saying, "THAT IS WHY I'M USING THIS SPELL!!!!!!"

JoshuaZ
2010-03-09, 05:59 PM
Just wanted to mention someone's expounding on the usefulness of shivering touch by casting it multiple times.

IIRC, going off basic spell stacking rules, if you hit a target twice with shivering touch, only the spell with the higher damage will apply, much in the same way you can use resist energy to resist fire or cold, but not both at once. If you wanted to deal more dex damage to the target you'd need to find a different spell to cast, since the spell description doesn't say the effects stack (unlike Ennervation or Ray of Exhaustion, for example)


Incorrect. This would be true if shivering touch was just a penalty. But it deals damage. So multiple uses are just fine.

If shivering touch was just a penalty that would go a long way to nerfing it (although could potentially lead to other problems, like making some spells to get rid of the dex damage no longer be helpful).

It should probably just be a 4th level spell. That would solve most issues.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-09, 06:01 PM
That's like saying if you cast two Fireballs at a target, it would only take damage from one of them...damage is damage in most cases, whether it's to HP or ability scores.


Incorrect. This would be true if shivering touch was just a penalty. But it deals damage. So multiple uses are just fine.

If shivering touch was just a penalty that would go a long way to nerfing it (although could potentially lead to other problems, like making some spells to get rid of the dex damage no longer be helpful).

It should probably just be a 4th level spell. That would solve most issues.

Fireball, poison, or even ego whip are instantaneous,
Shivering Touch has a duration of 1/round a level until the damage expires, thus its an on going effect and stacking rules apply.

Penalties can't ever reduce a stat below zero, and say a potion of lesser restoration would eliminate shivering touch completely if it was a penalty and not damage.

TaintedLight
2010-03-09, 06:02 PM
How about the target get's to use it's best saving thhrow and on success they aren't affected at all, in addition to it only giving a penalty. And it's subject to SR.

Then you may as well be casting something more like Ray of Enfeeblement or Ray of Clumsiness. Not only do you not have to get up close to it, it's a lower level spell with a reasonably close EV.

Making the spell worse may not be what's necessary. I personally just dump it from my games. When something is just too good and there exist plenty of other not-broken options to accomplish a similar goal, just dump the broken one. It works well in my games, at least.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-09, 06:03 PM
Fireball, poison, or even ego whip are instantaneous,
Shivering Touch has a duration of 1/round a level until the damage expires, thus its an on going effect and stacking rules apply.

Except that it calls it damage. It isn't called a penalty or a bonus. RAW is that the duration is relevant.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-09, 06:10 PM
Except that it calls it damage. It isn't called a penalty or a bonus. RAW is that the duration is relevant.



SRD on stacking
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths
In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies.

Because the damage of Shivering Touch is limited by the duration and doesn't require it be healed on its own, it falls under this rule. If it was instantaneous then it stack, but as is If your hit by two Shivering touches, your under the effect of two identical spells operating at the same time. So the above rule applies.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-09, 06:17 PM
Because the damage of Shivering Touch is limited by the duration and doesn't require it be healed on its own, it falls under this rule. If it was instantaneous then it stack, but as is
If your hit by two Shivering touches, your under the effect of two identical spells operating at the same time at different strengths

Oh. Hmm. That's a good point. I guess one issue here is whether the duration of the spell actually lasts that long or whether it is just that the damage itself lasts that long. The spell isn't very well-edited. Generally, damage isn't something spells do once.

If the spell really is continuing to be active then one could also read it as doing the dex damage every round until the duration goes away. That's clearly ridiculous though.

Your interpretation of RAW seems to make the most sense.

Vizzerdrix
2010-03-09, 06:18 PM
Poorly written spell is poorly written :smallmad:


Honestly, what is the wording on lesser ST? can we use that to clear up the wording on ST, or am I thinking silly thoughts?

Also, Volkov, I'm somewhat of a powergamer and am of the opinion that I'd not fit well with your group, however if the way you play works for you and your friends than more power to you.

jiriku
2010-03-09, 06:20 PM
I mostly did it to point out to a GM I have that letting me alter self into a Troglodyte isn't horribly game-maiming, it just makes the wizard that he wasn't attacking anyways slightly more resistant to stray arrows.

In the meantime he's throwing a party of level 4 against creatures that auto-drain two levels on a successful melee attack. I kind of feel like pointing to those encounters and saying, "THAT IS WHY I'M USING THIS SPELL!!!!!!"

I feel you, man. My last DM felt that any game session where a PC didn't die was a bad one. He'd regularly hit us with stuff 5-8 levels above our EL, and cheated when rolling their saves. He drove me to the playground looking for ever-higher levels of optimization to keep my character alive, and then groused and complained when I found ways to tear his encounters apart in a round or two. Apparently the fact that the monsters could one-shot us and hit on a roll of 2+ wasn't sufficient reason for me to try to end the encounters quickly or seek ways to prevent the monsters from attacking.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 06:23 PM
Poorly written spell is poorly written :smallmad:


Honestly, what is the wording on lesser ST? can we use that to clear up the wording on ST, or am I thinking silly thoughts?

Also, Volkov, I'm somewhat of a powergamer and am of the opinion that I'd not fit well with your group, however if the way you play works for you and your friends than more power to you.

I am okay with power gaming to a certain extent, as long as you can role play well. My player's have stricter standards and I know they sometimes resort to physical violence in real life to deal with what they deem to be problems and quite frankly they've been my friends for too long for me to just dump them and painstakingly screen a group of compatible people for another table group.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-09, 06:24 PM
Oh. Hmm. That's a good point. I guess one issue here is whether the duration of the spell actually lasts that long or whether it is just that the damage itself lasts that long. The spell isn't very well-edited. Generally, damage isn't something spells do once.

If the spell really is continuing to be active then one could also read it as doing the dex damage every round until the duration goes away. That's clearly ridiculous though.

Your interpretation of RAW seems to make the most sense.

This actually applies in other situations if you stack two walls of fire ontop of one another only the higher of the two damages applies, the same goes for say acid fog or cloud kill.

While the spell Shivering Touch has a duration nothing in the description says they take on going damage, so simply put the damage has a duration.

jiriku
2010-03-09, 06:38 PM
One might also reasonably interpret the duration as a limit on how long the caster can hold the charge. However, I'd agree that it's poorly written.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-09, 06:43 PM
This actually applies in other situations if you stack two walls of fire ontop of one another only the higher of the two damages applies, the same goes for say acid fog or cloud kill.


Yeah, but that's a very different situation since in those cases the effects which overlap are ongoing damage.


One might also reasonably interpret the duration as a limit on how long the caster can hold the charge. However, I'd agree that it's poorly written.

Actually, that makes even more sense. Since that's consistent with how damage normally works. Otherwise the spell is very weird.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-09, 06:45 PM
One might also reasonably interpret the duration as a limit on how long the caster can hold the charge. However, I'd agree that it's poorly written.
Umm no...
You can hold the charge on touch spell on shocking grasp or any touch spell for hours as long as you avoid and accidental discharge or casting something else. The same applies to Shivering Touch, its duration is for the damage,

If the spell allowed for multiple touches(it doesn't) then it be how long the caster could hold the charge..

The spell is supposed to work by sucking the heat from the body causing dexterity damage because its numb. I would presume numbness from cold wears of faster then poison.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-09, 06:49 PM
Umm no...
You can hold the charge on touch spell on shocking grasp or any touch spell for hours as long as you avoid and accidental discharge or casting something else. The same applies to Shivering Touch, its duration is for the damage.

SRD says (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm):



Touch

You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch as many willing targets as you can reach as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

So you have to use a touch spell in the same turn you cast it. Some other forms of touches allow you to hold the charges, and some specific spells say you can, but if they don't, they don't allow it.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-09, 06:55 PM
SRD says (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm):



So you have to use a touch spell in the same turn you cast it. Some other forms of touches allow you to hold the charges, and some specific spells say you can, but if they don't, they don't allow it.


If you continue reading you will find,

Touch Spells and Holding the Charge
In most cases, if you donít discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.


Thank you come again.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-09, 07:00 PM
If you continue reading you will find,


Thank you come again.

Ok. I'll go back into my little teapot now. Hopefully no one will notice my damaging the signal to noise ratio.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-09, 07:03 PM
Ok. I'll go back into my little teapot now. Hopefully no one will notice my damaging the signal to noise ratio.

Sorry if I came off to harsh, I thought I was being funny.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-09, 07:05 PM
Sorry if I came off to harsh, I thought I was being funny.

I was being stupid. My remark was an attempt to humorously acknowledge my very wrong nature.

Grrr,

Text only media are so bad for getting nuance across.

Yuki Akuma
2010-03-09, 07:21 PM
The spell says damage. Ergo, it's damage.

The duration doesn't actually say what it's for. So, going by how all of the rules going together to make the spell work, uh, work... the duration is utterly meaningless and measures nothing.

The spell is very badly written. I point you towards that one monster with Shivering Touch as a spell-like ability with a saving throw DC listed.

But, RAW, it's a touch attack that deals 3d6 Dexterity damage, and can be spammed because that's how ability damage works.

Broken? Hell yes. But them's the RAW. Houserule it, by all means, but don't try to convince anybody that it's not a horribly edited piece of garbage.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 07:27 PM
The spell says damage. Ergo, it's damage.

The duration doesn't actually say what it's for. So, going by how all of the rules going together to make the spell work, uh, work... the duration is utterly meaningless and measures nothing.

The spell is very badly written. I point you towards that one monster with Shivering Touch as a spell-like ability with a saving throw DC listed.

But, RAW, it's a touch attack that deals 3d6 Dexterity damage, and can be spammed because that's how ability damage works.

Broken? Hell yes. But them's the RAW. Houserule it, by all means, but don't try to convince anybody that it's not a horribly edited piece of garbage.

It should be for the duration of the damage, otherwise it's so poorly written it should simply be heavily edited or discarded outright if it is ever to be used.

TaintedLight
2010-03-09, 07:28 PM
It should be for the duration of the damage, otherwise it's so poorly written it should simply be heavily edited or discarded outright if it is ever to be used.

I know a lot of folks who do just toss it. It's a stupidly powerful spell that is very confusingly templated.

Yuki Akuma
2010-03-09, 07:29 PM
It should be for the duration of the damage, otherwise it's so poorly written it should simply be heavily edited or discarded outright if it is ever to be used.

"Should be" nothing. You have no idea what the authors were thinking when they made that spell.

Houserule however you want. But don't tell us what the spell obviously is supposed to do, because it's so badly written it's not obvious at all. :smalltongue:

Volkov
2010-03-09, 07:34 PM
"Should be" nothing. You have no idea what the authors were thinking when they made that spell.

Houserule however you want. But don't tell us what the spell obviously is supposed to do, because it's so badly written it's not obvious at all. :smalltongue:

I never said the word obvious once. The spell is borked and dumb. It's like using ray of stupidity on an Ally's T-rex animal companion (I had a really trigger happy wizard in my group who attacked everyone not of his party because he though they were all enemies in disguise, and he did just this...during a major battle...and thus caused the party to lose the battle, which meant I had to take out a secondary plotline that I prepared just in case the party lost somehow.) It kills the drama of what should otherwise be a reasonable challenge.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-09, 07:35 PM
The spell says damage. Ergo, it's damage.

The duration doesn't actually say what it's for. So, going by how all of the rules going together to make the spell work, uh, work... the duration is utterly meaningless and measures nothing.

The spell is very badly written. I point you towards that one monster with Shivering Touch as a spell-like ability with a saving throw DC listed.

But, RAW, it's a touch attack that deals 3d6 Dexterity damage, and can be spammed because that's how ability damage works.

Broken? Hell yes. But them's the RAW. Houserule it, by all means, but don't try to convince anybody that it's not a horribly edited piece of garbage.
No thats not RAW, ignoring components of the spell is a houserule.

By your logic the duration of ray of enfeeblement is meaningless because it doesn't say what the duration is for. But according to the actually rules for how spells works the duration applies to the spells effect. Thus the penalty lasts for 1 min/level.
We never question that, we just assume the duration must apply to the dex penalty. So there is NO reason not to believe the same applies to Shivering Touch.
If the spell dealt a penalty there would be NO question as to what the duration applies to but because its damage and temporary damage is weird so some people get confused, but there is no reason. No where is it stated in the rules that damage can't be temporary.

So unless you can provide evidence to to show otherwise the duration on Shivering Touch applies to the dex damage just like the duration on ray of enfeeblement applies to its penalty.

"Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths"

If your going to claim RAW back it up.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 07:37 PM
No thats not RAW, ignoring components of the spell is a houserule.

By your logic the duration of ray of enfeeblement is meaningless because it doesn't say what the duration if for. But according to the actually rules for how spells works the duration applies to the spells effect. Thus the penalty lasts for 1 min/level.
With Shivering Touch it doesn't matter that it deals damage instead of a penalty,
The spell does only one thing, dexterity damage and it does it once, so that's what the duration is for and nothing you can say changes the RAW on that. No where is it said that damage can't be temporary.

IT doesn't matter that the spell deals damage for stacking in this purposes, its an on going effect and thus falls under the rule
"Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths"

If you put to acid fogs in the same area it doesn't deal 8d6 damage. You roll 4d6 damage twice and use the higher of the two numbers. Shivering Touch is no different

The spell isn't a poison or life draining, its a numbing cold. I'd assume a numbing cold wears off fairly quikly.
Unless you're in a siberian winter, then the numbing cold stays for quite a while, even after you get inside. But even then, as long as you were dressed warmly enough, it should go away after a few minutes.

TaintedLight
2010-03-09, 07:37 PM
I never said the word obvious once. The spell is borked and dumb. It's like using ray of stupidity on an Ally's T-rex animal companion (I had a really trigger happy wizard in my group who attacked everyone not of his party because he though they were all enemies in disguise, and he did just this...during a major battle...and thus caused the party to lose the battle, which meant I had to take out a secondary plotline that I prepared just in case the party lost somehow.) It kills the drama of what should otherwise be a reasonable challenge.

In what way is a dragon 10 CRs ahead a reasonable challenge? Or an epic dragon, for that matter?

Yes, Shivering Touch is stupid. No, nobody really knows what the heck is supposed to happen when you cast it. But that is not a good reason to toss your party encounters that are horribly overpowered for their capabilities sans one bad egg of a spell.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 07:39 PM
In what way is a dragon 10 CRs ahead a reasonable challenge? Or an epic dragon, for that matter?

Yes, Shivering Touch is stupid. No, nobody really knows what the heck is supposed to happen when you cast it. But that is not a good reason to toss your party encounters that are horribly overpowered for their capabilities sans one bad egg of a spell.

It should be a TPK and I disapprove of Hopeless boss fights. So I'd never use it anyway.

JaronK
2010-03-09, 07:41 PM
Killing my main villain long before the final encounter is going to screw up my plan, and a level 11 character taking out a CR 20+ monster is most certainly munchkiining.

That would be called railroading. Hard core. Tell your players if you're doing a cutscene so they know they're not allowed to control their characters.

It's not the players fault that you put a monster out there in a vulnerable position without realizing how vulnerable that position was. That's your mistake for putting out such an opening, not theirs for taking it. In fact, taking said openings is what they're supposed to do... it's called playing intelligently. Why don't you just go ahead and tell them how many rounds it's supposed to take for them to kill a target? And what they're allowed to attack, and when, and what tactics they have to use? In fact, why don't you just play by yourself, then you never have to worry about anyone contributing to and altering your story at all?

The responsibility of the DM is to make the game fun for players... not to make their own story. That's a novelist, not a DM. Punishing players for doing exactly what their (not even optimized!) character should do by calling them munchkins, denying them food, or sending unrealistic swarms of monsters after tham is not making the game fun for them. It's throwing a tantrum. It sounds like it's just lucky that your group doesn't set off your buttons.


And I'd have you need to get by a kobold cleric cohort, and a lizardfolk cleric minion. Both of whom have several levels above you.

Neither of whom have spot as a class skill. No worries for a Factotum.

This situation is much like a Terrasque showing up when the party has an archer character on a flying mount that does a lot of damage at level 12. Eventually, the archer is going to win, because the Terrasque can't fly. I suppose you'd take away his food too, because he did exactly what his character would do and there was an obvious vulnerability in the monster that he was set up to attack? If a Cleric casts Overland Flight to get the whole party up high to attack this thing, would you lock the whole party in your basement for a week while screaming "munchie munchie munchkin die?"

JaronK

Volkov
2010-03-09, 07:43 PM
That would be called railroading. Hard core. Tell your players if you're doing a cutscene so they know they're not allowed to control their characters.

It's not the players fault that you put a monster out there in a vulnerable position without realizing how vulnerable that position was. That's your mistake for putting out such an opening, not theirs for taking it. In fact, taking said openings is what they're supposed to do... it's called playing intelligently. Why don't you just go ahead and tell them how many rounds it's supposed to take for them to kill a target? And what they're allowed to attack, and when, and what tactics they have to use? In fact, why don't you just play by yourself, then you never have to worry about anyone contributing to and altering your story at all?

The responsibility of the DM is to make the game fun for players... not to make their own story. That's a novelist, not a DM. Punishing players for doing exactly what their (not even optimized!) character should do by calling them munchkins, denying them food, or sending unrealistic swarms of monsters after tham is not making the game fun for them. It's throwing a tantrum. It sounds like it's just lucky that your group doesn't set off your buttons.



Neither of whom have spot as a class skill. No worries for a Factotum.

This situation is much like a Terrasque showing up when the party has an archer character on a flying mount that does a lot of damage at level 12. Eventually, the archer is going to win, because the Terrasque can't fly. I suppose you'd take away his food too, because he did exactly what his character would do and there was an obvious vulnerability in the monster that he was set up to attack? If a Cleric casts Overland Flight to get the whole party up high to attack this thing, would you lock the whole party in your basement for a week while screaming "munchie munchie munchkin die?"

JaronK
Regeneration kind of gets in the way of actually killing the tarrasque. Because as you lack wish or miracle, there's no way you have any chance of actually keeping it down. It's just going to keep on getting back up until you are all out of arrows and your horsie is completely exhausted. Then it will munch on you both.

JaronK
2010-03-09, 07:45 PM
For those trying to figure out the spell, Lesser Shivering Touch sounds like the damage only lasts for one round per level. It says "causing it to shiver uncontrollably for the duration of the spell. Shivering characters take 1d6 points of Dexterity damage." It doesn't say "dexterity damage per round" so that option is out (and that would be nuts) but the wording seems to indicate they only have the damage while shivering, which lasts for CL rounds. Shivering Touch itself does not cause shivering (it makes people numb), but it's a related spell, so maybe it was supposed to do the same thing.

JaronK

taltamir
2010-03-09, 07:46 PM
I go to school for half a day, and this thread goes from 3 pages to 7 T_T... how am I to catch up?

Volkov
2010-03-09, 07:47 PM
For those trying to figure out the spell, Lesser Shivering Touch sounds like the damage only lasts for one round per level. It says "causing it to shiver uncontrollably for the duration of the spell. Shivering characters take 1d6 points of Dexterity damage." It doesn't say "dexterity damage per round" so that option is out (and that would be nuts) but the wording seems to indicate they only have the damage while shivering, which lasts for CL rounds. Shivering Touch itself does not cause shivering (it makes people numb), but it's a related spell, so maybe it was supposed to do the same thing.

JaronK

Hopefully the answer would be yes. If not...

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-09, 07:51 PM
As I stated in by edited post above,

The spell ray of enfeeblement doesn't say what the duration applies to the penalty, just assume the strength penalty right.

The only real difference between ray of enfeeblement is one deals damage the other a penalty.
If Shivering Touch dealt a penalty instead of damaging there would be no argument as to what the duration applies to. But we swap penalty with damage and suddenly its an issue, but the rules don't say damage can't be temporary.
If I rewrote ray of enfeeblement and changed penalty to damage everyone would know the duration applies to the damage.
The spell isn't badly written its just weird we aren't used to temporary ability damage.

tyckspoon
2010-03-09, 07:53 PM
I go to school for half a day, and this thread goes from 3 pages to 7 T_T... how am I to catch up?

Here's the Cliff Notes:
Shivering Touch is broken-
Yeah, but it'd be ok at a higher level-
But Dragons! -
Ok, sure, but really it's not the Omega Spell; if you run your dragons as big stupid beasts they'll die like big stupid beasts -
*long wandering argument about people's DMing styles*
Hey guys, it doesn't work the way you think it does -
*long wandering argument about people's rules readings intertwined with previous argument about DMing styles*

You are now caught up.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 07:54 PM
As I stated in by edited post above,

The spell ray of enfeeblement doesn't say what the duration applies to the penalty, just assume the strength penalty right.

The only real difference between ray of enfeeblement is one deals damage the other a penalty.
If Shivering Touch dealt a penalty instead of damaging there would be no argument as to what the duration applies to. But we swap penalty with damage and suddenly its an issue, but the rules don't say damage can't be temporary.
If I rewrote ray of enfeeblement and changed penalty to damage everyone would know the duration applies to the damage.
The spell isn't badly written its just weird we aren't used to temporary ability damage
Oh yes it is most certainly badly written, because it could mean how long you can hold onto the spell, how it can screw over most monsters in the game while being a 3rd level spell, and outside of pumping your saving throws, there's not much you can do to stop it if you can't see the caster coming.

taltamir
2010-03-09, 07:55 PM
Here's the Cliff Notes:
Shivering Touch is broken-
Yeah, but it'd be ok at a higher level-
But Dragons! -
Ok, sure, but really it's not the Omega Spell; if you run your dragons as big stupid beasts they'll die like big stupid beasts -
*long wandering argument about people's DMing styles*
Hey guys, it doesn't work the way you think it does -
*long wandering argument about people's rules readings intertwined with previous argument about DMing styles*

You are now caught up.

you sir, win an internet cookie.
thanks for the summary.

JaronK
2010-03-09, 07:56 PM
Saving throws have no effect. You need SR, a high touch AC, or the cold subtype. Dragons generally would want the "Shimmering Scales" spell that lets them apply their natural armor to their touch AC, but they can't have it always up... they have to know they're under attack. Still, a contingent spell would do it. "If a touch range spell targets me and I haven't said "artichoke" in the last six seconds, cast Shimmering Scales on me."

JaronK

JoshuaZ
2010-03-09, 07:58 PM
Regeneration kind of gets in the way of actually killing the tarrasque. Because as you lack wish or miracle, there's no way you have any chance of actually keeping it down. It's just going to keep on getting back up until you are all out of arrows and your horsie is completely exhausted. Then it will munch on you both.

There are a lot of ways to handle a Tarrasque after it is injured to the point where it needs to regenerate. For example, the necrotic cyst line of spells could be quite helpful. Need just a 2nd level spell and then a 4th level spell and the Tarrasque does exactly what you tell it to do. Now you just need a casting of 4th level spell to keep it in check and just need to do that every few days.

If you don't have those spells, and have a 13th level wizard then you can do the same thing with two limited wishes. Sure it will drain your xp a bit but should give you the time to pool gold together to get a scroll of wish to kill it, or simply find a high-level caster to kill it for you. Or find a psion who can microcosm it.

And that's only one method of dealing with it. You don't actually need to even kill the big T to render it permanently not a problem. It can be transported to other planes (both the positive and negative energy planes are not bad locations) where it is extremely unlikely to come back.

TaintedLight
2010-03-09, 07:59 PM
That would be called railroading. Hard core. Tell your players if you're doing a cutscene so they know they're not allowed to control their characters.

It's not the players fault that you put a monster out there in a vulnerable position without realizing how vulnerable that position was. That's your mistake for putting out such an opening, not theirs for taking it. In fact, taking said openings is what they're supposed to do... it's called playing intelligently. Why don't you just go ahead and tell them how many rounds it's supposed to take for them to kill a target? And what they're allowed to attack, and when, and what tactics they have to use? In fact, why don't you just play by yourself, then you never have to worry about anyone contributing to and altering your story at all?

The responsibility of the DM is to make the game fun for players... not to make their own story. That's a novelist, not a DM. Punishing players for doing exactly what their (not even optimized!) character should do by calling them munchkins, denying them food, or sending unrealistic swarms of monsters after tham is not making the game fun for them. It's throwing a tantrum. It sounds like it's just lucky that your group doesn't set off your buttons.



Neither of whom have spot as a class skill. No worries for a Factotum.

This situation is much like a Terrasque showing up when the party has an archer character on a flying mount that does a lot of damage at level 12. Eventually, the archer is going to win, because the Terrasque can't fly. I suppose you'd take away his food too, because he did exactly what his character would do and there was an obvious vulnerability in the monster that he was set up to attack? If a Cleric casts Overland Flight to get the whole party up high to attack this thing, would you lock the whole party in your basement for a week while screaming "munchie munchie munchkin die?"

JaronK

Y'know, I don't see a good reason why the Tarrasque couldn't just rip a tree out of the ground and hurl it at flying pests...

Volkov
2010-03-09, 08:01 PM
That would be called railroading. Hard core. Tell your players if you're doing a cutscene so they know they're not allowed to control their characters.

It's not the players fault that you put a monster out there in a vulnerable position without realizing how vulnerable that position was. That's your mistake for putting out such an opening, not theirs for taking it. In fact, taking said openings is what they're supposed to do... it's called playing intelligently. Why don't you just go ahead and tell them how many rounds it's supposed to take for them to kill a target? And what they're allowed to attack, and when, and what tactics they have to use? In fact, why don't you just play by yourself, then you never have to worry about anyone contributing to and altering your story at all?

The responsibility of the DM is to make the game fun for players... not to make their own story. That's a novelist, not a DM. Punishing players for doing exactly what their (not even optimized!) character should do by calling them munchkins, denying them food, or sending unrealistic swarms of monsters after tham is not making the game fun for them. It's throwing a tantrum. It sounds like it's just lucky that your group doesn't set off your buttons.



Neither of whom have spot as a class skill. No worries for a Factotum.


JaronK
High wisdom scores make that irrelevant. Not to mention the hundreds of Lackeys, Followers, and Undead you'd have to go through. Possibly thousands actually. How many spells do you have? Is it enough to wade through entrances that are all completely clogged with guards, thus making sneaking impossible? Please return at a higher level. Just like in many so called "Open-ended" video games, you will need more power to be able to get to the final opponent. Which is how metroid handles it's open ended world, to fully explore it, you will need every ability in the game, or essentially, max power. I handle sandbox worlds in a similar way. Most of it is open to you, but certain areas will need to wait for higher levels simply because they are beyond your current ability to reach.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 08:02 PM
There are a lot of ways to handle a Tarrasque after it is injured to the point where it needs to regenerate. For example, the necrotic cyst line of spells could be quite helpful. Need just a 2nd level spell and then a 4th level spell and the Tarrasque does exactly what you tell it to do. Now you just need a casting of 4th level spell to keep it in check and just need to do that every few days.

If you don't have those spells, and have a 13th level wizard then you can do the same thing with two limited wishes. Sure it will drain your xp a bit but should give you the time to pool gold together to get a scroll of wish to kill it, or simply find a high-level caster to kill it for you. Or find a psion who can microcosm it.

And that's only one method of dealing with it. You don't actually need to even kill the big T to render it permanently not a problem. It can be transported to other planes (both the positive and negative energy planes are not bad locations) where it is extremely unlikely to come back.
Unless a wizard/cleric/psion/druid/whatever wants it back and brings it back with gate. And uses magic to add the half-fiendish template to it.

JaronK
2010-03-09, 08:04 PM
Y'know, I don't see a good reason why the Tarrasque couldn't just rip a tree out of the ground and hurl it at flying pests...

Range increments on improvised weapons untrained aren't exactly impressive. A flying archer would be at least 100' above the terrasque, likely a good bit more than that (my last archer used a Splitting Large Greatbow of Distance, for example). There are ways to make it work, though eventually you'll need a scroll of Wish.

JaronK

JoshuaZ
2010-03-09, 08:05 PM
Unless a wizard/cleric/psion/druid/whatever wants it back and brings it back with gate. And uses magic to add the half-fiendish template to it.

Sure that's a worry. But that's an eventual worry not a current worry. And why someone would want to do that is beyond me. The point is that you can *defeat* the Tarassque with a bit of planning at level 12 with minimal work.

Note also that the using the Necrotic Cyst trick doesn't even require that. You get a free Tarassque pet for using a spell slot every few days. Doesn't even require dropping off on another plane.

TaintedLight
2010-03-09, 08:05 PM
Range increments on improvised weapons untrained aren't exactly impressive. A flying archer would be at least 100' above the terrasque, likely a good bit more than that (my last archer used a Splitting Large Greatbow of Distance, for example). There are ways to make it work, though eventually you'll need a scroll of Wish.

JaronK

This is the part where I'd rule an object that large (substitute a house if you like) is not a ranged attack, but rather an area attack. Reflex saves, anyone?

Volkov
2010-03-09, 08:06 PM
Range increments on improvised weapons untrained aren't exactly impressive. A flying archer would be at least 100' above the terrasque, likely a good bit more than that (my last archer used a Splitting Large Greatbow of Distance, for example). There are ways to make it work, though eventually you'll need a scroll of Wish.

JaronK

That spell is going to wear off sooner or later. Also, as perhaps the greatest symbol of the animal kingdom. Many a druid or cleric of a nature deity would try to bring the big T back to life. Or get revenge, or both.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 08:07 PM
Sure that's a worry. But that's an eventual worry not a current worry. And why someone would want to do that is beyond me. The point is that you can *defeat* the Tarassque with a bit of planning at level 12 with minimal work.

Note also that the using the Necrotic Cyst trick doesn't even require that. You get a free Tarassque pet for using a spell slot every few days. Doesn't even require dropping off on another plane.

If you have the tarrasque as a bargaining chip, the world's nations would be far more likely to give into your demands. Plus, it would make a kick-ass bodyguard.

tyckspoon
2010-03-09, 08:07 PM
Y'know, I don't see a good reason why the Tarrasque couldn't just rip a tree out of the ground and hurl it at flying pests...

Rules-wise? It would be an improvised throwing weapon, which is limited to 5 range increments at range 10. As soon as it takes aim at anything farther than 50 feet away it becomes utterly incapable of hitting.


... How the heck did 3 sentences get ninja'd that hard??

JoshuaZ
2010-03-09, 08:09 PM
That spell is going to wear off sooner or later. Also, as perhaps the greatest symbol of the animal kingdom. Many a druid or cleric of a nature deity would try to bring the big T back to life. Or get revenge, or both.

Again, essentially railroading. And would still take time for them to do so. The point is that a level 12 or 13 party can defeat a Tarassque. A problem of baddies resurrecting it is as much of a problem for the level 20 party as it is for the level 13 party. But it sounds like you'd only have it get resurrected if it fell to the level 13 party. That's a problem.

And of course, it doesn't matter much at all with Necrotic Cysts since the Tarassque is still around. Just nicely controlled or asleep.

JaronK
2010-03-09, 08:12 PM
High wisdom scores make that irrelevant.

Have you even looked at Factotums? Dex + Int to hide, hide as a class skill, add your Factotum level once per day to your hide skill... vs untrained with a high Wis skill. No worries.


Not to mention the hundreds of Lackeys, Followers, and Undead you'd have to go through. Possibly thousands actually. How many spells do you have? Is it enough to wade through entrances that are all completely clogged with guards, thus making sneaking impossible?

Is that really how you run things? Exits so clogged with guards that no one can even squeeze through? Do your dragons hang out in conference centers all day long? My god if it's that populated a disguise check means you can just walk right in (or teleport past the guards and pop out of a bathroom disguised as on of the lackies) as not everybody can know everyone with your thousands of lackies. That just makes him even more vulnerable. How's he going to spot the one disguised (at very high skill level) Factotum among your "thousands" of people?

At least you're now starting to think about actually defending the dragon instead of punishing the player for breaking through your defenses.

Now try reasonable and solid defenses. How about instead of swarms of bad guys, try having the dragon disguise himself as a white dragon so people that come against him are prepped for the wrong kind and don't think of Shivering Touch? What about the dragon using Permament Images of itself so that someone attacking might attack a fake dragon, thus raising the alarm? Contingent teleports and shimmering scales, perhaps? A system of teleporters that you have to use to get from place to place, but which are unlabeled and some of which lead to certain death? Rooms that can only be entered via very large stone doors that make a lot of noise when they open, so you always know when someone's coming? There's plenty of options out there other than playing petty tyrant with your players and trying to deny them food or kill their characters with uberdragons when you screw up.

JaronK

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-09, 08:12 PM
Oh yes it is most certainly badly written, because it could mean how long you can hold onto the spell, how it can screw over most monsters in the game while being a 3rd level spell, and outside of pumping your saving throws, there's not much you can do to stop it if you can't see the caster coming.
Lets not confuse overpowered with badly written.

No IT CAN'T be to how long you hold the charge by RAW you can hold the charge on a touch spell indefinitely I already quoted that rule from the SRD, so the duration can't apply there unless the spell says it does.

Looking what the spells says, It deals on a successful melee touch attack 3d6 points of damage to dexterity. It also has a listed duration of 1/round a level. There is nothing else in the spell for the duration to apply to but the damage. So stop inventing things that the spell doesn't say.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-09, 08:16 PM
Even accepting the duration as applying to how long the damage lasts the essential problem remains. The spell is still very powerful for a 3rd level spell. It just means that if the first use doesn't work there's some small chance the second doesn't either.

And I suppose it means that you have a limited amount of time to doodle all over the dragon before you have to actually kill it.

JaronK
2010-03-09, 08:16 PM
That spell is going to wear off sooner or later.

Hour/CL on Overland Flight. Not an issue here. And in the case of a guy on a flying mount, it never wears off.


Also, as perhaps the greatest symbol of the animal kingdom. Many a druid or cleric of a nature deity would try to bring the big T back to life. Or get revenge, or both.

It's not an animal, so it's probably not the greatest symbol of animals. Besides, I wouldn't part with my nifty terrasque corpse if I slew it. Gonna need to try and find a scroll of Plague of Undead... Once I've got my rediculous HD Terrasque Skeleton, I'm totally building a fortress inside it and romping around (taking care not to step on the lawn of anyone particularly dangerous).

Ain't no party like an inside-the-skeletal-terrasque party!

JaronK

Volkov
2010-03-09, 08:19 PM
Have you even looked at Factotums? Dex + Int to hide, hide as a class skill, add your Factotum level once per day to your hide skill... vs untrained with a high Wis skill. No worries.



Is that really how you run things? Exits so clogged with guards that no one can even squeeze through? Do your dragons hang out in conference centers all day long? My god if it's that populated a disguise check means you can just walk right in (or teleport past the guards and pop out of a bathroom disguised as on of the lackies) as not everybody can know everyone with your thousands of lackies. That just makes him even more vulnerable. How's he going to spot the one disguised (at very high skill level) Factotum among your "thousands" of people?

At least you're now starting to think about actually defending the dragon instead of punishing the player for breaking through your defenses.

Now try reasonable and solid defenses. How about instead of swarms of bad guys, try having the dragon disguise himself as a white dragon so people that come against him are prepped for the wrong kind and don't think of Shivering Touch? What about the dragon using Permament Images of itself so that someone attacking might attack a fake dragon, thus raising the alarm? Contingent teleports and shimmering scales, perhaps? A system of teleporters that you have to use to get from place to place, but which are unlabeled and some of which lead to certain death? Rooms that can only be entered via very large stone doors that make a lot of noise when they open, so you always know when someone's coming? There's plenty of options out there other than playing petty tyrant with your players and trying to deny them food or kill their characters with uberdragons when you screw up.

JaronK

My answer is zombies and a very high sense motive skill for the clerics and dragon.

Plus, the dragon will be sitting in lava most of the day. He'll also have hundreds of captured human children who will be dropped into the lava the instant he is killed. They will be arranged so that you cannot possibly save them all at your current level. Of course, if you're character is evil, or neutral with evil tendencies, he won't care. Also, I'll have several followers and lackeys with spot as a class skill patrolling the area. Creatures with scent. A Called and perma-dominated Balor. And to enter the dragon's personal chamber, you must pass through some very noisy doors that will alert everyone in the lair and automatically cast permanent glitterdust on you, and that chamber is a fraud, the dragon is actually in a different, far more well guarded room that is hidden by many, many illusions and solid stone walls.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 08:20 PM
Hour/CL on Overland Flight. Not an issue here. And in the case of a guy on a flying mount, it never wears off.



It's not an animal, so it's probably not the greatest symbol of animals. Besides, I wouldn't part with my nifty terrasque corpse if I slew it. Gonna need to try and find a scroll of Plague of Undead... Once I've got my rediculous HD Terrasque Skeleton, I'm totally building a fortress inside it and romping around (taking care not to step on the lawn of anyone particularly dangerous).

Ain't no party like an inside-the-skeletal-terrasque party!

JaronK
The mount will tire sooner or later. And druids and clerics of nature gods will be very pissy that you killed it regardless. Because it's still a member of the animal kingdom. We are listed as humanoids, but we are still members of the animal kingdom.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-09, 08:20 PM
Even accepting the duration as applying to how long the damage lasts the essential problem remains. The spell is still very powerful for a 3rd level spell. It just means that if the first use doesn't work there's some small chance the second doesn't either.

And I suppose it means that you have a limited amount of time to doodle all over the dragon before you have to actually kill it.

I'm not saying the spell isn't over powered, non-stacking and having a limited duration its still overpowered for 3rd level. But not AS over powered and some people thing it is.
I'm just saying the duration applies to the dex damage which in turn prevents the spell from stacking.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-09, 08:21 PM
automatically cast permanent glitterdust on you

Not doable.

JaronK
2010-03-09, 08:21 PM
Even accepting the duration as applying to how long the damage lasts the essential problem remains. The spell is still very powerful for a 3rd level spell. It just means that if the first use doesn't work there's some small chance the second doesn't either.

It's really good against a few specific sorts of enemies, namely those with poor touch ACs and low dexterity and poor SR, but usually with good saves. That basically means lower level dragons, and higher level dragons once you can deal with SR. Also, Paladins, and maybe Clerics. It's not very good against many others, just situationally amazing.


And I suppose it means that you have a limited amount of time to doodle all over the dragon before you have to actually kill it.

You had that idea too, huh?

JaronK

Volkov
2010-03-09, 08:22 PM
Not doable.

Eh, it still alerted the entire lair to your presence. And awakened Max hit dice Iron golems will then emerge from lava lake in the false chamber and immediately charge at you.

ericgrau
2010-03-09, 08:23 PM
Question I've still been wondering about shivering touch: Being reduced to 0 dex paralyzes you. Dragons are immune to paralysis. Are they affected?

JoshuaZ
2010-03-09, 08:23 PM
The mount will tire sooner or later. And druids and clerics of nature gods will be very pissy that you killed it regardless. Because it's still a member of the animal kingdom. We are listed as humanoids, but we are still members of the animal kingdom.

Where are you getting this notion that druids and nature deities care about the big T?

Also, you didn't address the earlier question: would you have the druids do this if a level 20 party killed it? If not, why is it ok for that to happen when a level 13 party deals with it?


I'm not saying the spell isn't over powered, non-stacking and having a limited duration its still overpowered for 3rd level. But not AS over powered and some people thing it is.
I'm just saying the duration applies to the dex damage which in turn prevents the spell from stacking.

Fair enough.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 08:23 PM
Question I've still been wondering about shivering touch: Being reduced to 0 dex paralyzes you. Dragons are immune to paralysis. Are they affected?

Oh gods, not this again....

Volkov
2010-03-09, 08:24 PM
Where are you getting this notion that druids and nature deities care about the big T?

Also, you didn't address the earlier question: would you have the druids do this if a level 20 party killed it? If not, why is it ok for that to happen when a level 13 party deals with it?



Fair enough.

They would still try to revive it. And killing the Big T would screw up the Ecosystem, which has evolved for it's periodical cleansings. Without them, what was once kept in check by the big T will grow out of control, and nature gets wrecked.

JaronK
2010-03-09, 08:25 PM
The mount will tire sooner or later.

Not for a VERY long time. You start having issues after what, 8 hours? And it's not like the mount is straining itself. It just slowly circles.


And druids and clerics of nature gods will be very pissy that you killed it regardless. Because it's still a member of the animal kingdom. We are listed as humanoids, but we are still members of the animal kingdom.

Uh huh. And would you have all those Druids and Clerics coming after the party if it killed them at level 20?

Honestly, I'd expect a heck of a lot of Clerics to be quite happy about the party saving the countryside from a roving death menace. Maybe a few kings too. The party might get a castle for their services!

JaronK

JaronK
2010-03-09, 08:27 PM
They would still try to revive it. And killing the Big T would screw up the Ecosystem, which has evolved for it's periodical cleansings. Without them, what was once kept in check by the big T will grow out of control, and nature gets wrecked.

D&D doesn't have evolution. It has gods that get bored and make stuff. But if necessary, I'll run around with my skeleton terrasque and crush some stuff every 1000 years or so, just to fix the ecosystem.

Meanwhile, they can't revive it, it's my new mobile base. It's wearing awesome spikey armor and inside the skeleton where the organs used to be is a castle with lots of shiny lights.

JaronK

Volkov
2010-03-09, 08:27 PM
Not for a VERY long time. You start having issues after what, 8 hours? And it's not like the mount is straining itself. It just slowly circles.



Uh huh. And would you have all those Druids and Clerics coming after the party if it killed them at level 20?

Honestly, I'd expect a heck of a lot of Clerics to be quite happy about the party saving the countryside from a roving death menace. Maybe a few kings too. The party might get a castle for their services!

JaronK
Yes they would still revive it and come after those responsible. And clerics to gods of neutral or evil nature deities couldn't give two ****s about civilization.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 08:28 PM
D&D doesn't have evolution. It has gods that get bored and make stuff. But if necessary, I'll run around with my skeleton terrasque and crush some stuff every 1000 years or so, just to fix the ecosystem.

Meanwhile, they can't revive it, it's my new mobile base. It's wearing awesome spikey armor and inside the skeleton where the organs used to be is a castle with lots of shiny lights.

JaronK
Greyhawk does in fact have evolution. And greyhawk is the core world. Of course, greyhawk's universe is hundreds of millions of years old. And the setting I use is at a reasonable 25 billion years old, and has evolution in full-force.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 08:30 PM
D&D doesn't have evolution. It has gods that get bored and make stuff. But if necessary, I'll run around with my skeleton terrasque and crush some stuff every 1000 years or so, just to fix the ecosystem.

Meanwhile, they can't revive it, it's my new mobile base. It's wearing awesome spikey armor and inside the skeleton where the organs used to be is a castle with lots of shiny lights.

JaronK
You will need to fight an angry circle of evil druids for those remains for daring to defile nature.

tyckspoon
2010-03-09, 08:31 PM
My answer is zombies and a very high sense motive skill for the clerics and dragon.

Plus, the dragon will be sitting in lava most of the day. He'll also have hundreds of captured human children who will be dropped into the lava the instant he is killed. They will be arranged so that you cannot possibly save them all at your current level. Of course, if you're character is evil, or neutral with evil tendencies, he won't care. Also, I'll have several followers and lackeys with spot as a class skill patrolling the area. Creatures with scent. A Called and perma-dominated Balor. And to enter the dragon's personal chamber, you must pass through some very noisy doors that will alert everyone in the lair and automatically cast permanent glitterdust on you, and that chamber is a fraud, the dragon is actually in a different, far more well guarded room that is hidden by many, many illusions and solid stone walls.

Or you could just go ahead and say "the hand of God prevents your level 11 character from trying to sequence-break my campaign. If you want to press on anyway, he is dead. Your choice." It'd save you a lot of time.

ericgrau
2010-03-09, 08:32 PM
Oh gods, not this again....
Lol, searched the thread and read the relevant sections. However, there was a fatal flaw at the end of the argument. Dragons are in fact Paralyzed when they reach dex 0, by RAW, using the exact word "Paralyzed". The fact that another part of RAW gives the definition of paralyzed instead of saying "Paralyzed" does not negate this fact.

Immunity to death effects not protecting against a fireball does not contradict this, since the spell death ward specifically says that it does not provide immunity to such things.

So... same question. Are dragons immune to dex 0 induced paralysis? :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Oh, FWIW I think the spell is crazy broken whether they are immune or not.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 08:33 PM
Or you could just go ahead and say "the hand of God prevents your level 11 character from trying to sequence-break my campaign. If you want to press on anyway, he is dead. Your choice." It'd save you a lot of time.

I don't believe in god. And nor do my players. Plus, the metroid series never killed you for attempting to sequence break, it was just very, very hard to do and typically not done on the first run-through. And since you no longer have the element of surprise, the Dragon handily beats you, but it does not feel that you are a worthy opponent and lets you run away.

JaronK
2010-03-09, 08:36 PM
Yes they would still revive it and come after those responsible. And clerics to gods of neutral or evil nature deities couldn't give two ****s about civilization.

So basically we're back to "if you kill something I didn't want dead, or otherwise diverge from my story, a bunch of overpowered (compared to you) guys come in and kill you." In other words, hard core railroading. Players can't change your story. Lame.

JaronK

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-09, 08:38 PM
Question I've still been wondering about shivering touch: Being reduced to 0 dex paralyzes you. Dragons are immune to paralysis. Are they affected?

Dragons are immune to paralysis effects, they are also immune to sleep effects but he still sleeps.

Shivering Touch is not a paralysis effect, it deals dex damage and if your dex is damaged to zero you are paralyzed. Its not a paralysis effect, like say hold monster is.
You need at least a dex score of 1 to move/

Dexterity
Any creature that can move has at least 1 point of Dexterity. A creature with no Dexterity score canít move. If it can perform actions (such as casting spells), it applies its Intelligence modifier to initiative checks instead of a Dexterity modifier.

At most the dragon could still cast spells, with out somatic components. (which would require moving). He still can't move and is utterly helpless.

AT MOST the dragon would be capable of casting spells

Volkov
2010-03-09, 08:39 PM
So basically we're back to "if you kill something I didn't want dead, or otherwise diverge from my story, a bunch of overpowered (compared to you) guys come in and kill you." In other words, hard core railroading. Players can't change your story. Lame.

JaronK

The railroading the main storyarc, the rest is sandbox. However, in my actual games, I have many contigencies for every situation, if the player does kill a plot important (not plot essential, if those guys die the entire plot needs to be rethought, because as per their name, the plot needs them to work.) I have twenty back-up plans. If a plot-essential person dies, I remind the PC's of what they have done and look for any contigency plans I might have.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-09, 08:46 PM
The railroading the main storyarc, the rest is sandbox. However, in my actual games, I have many contigencies for every situation, if the player does kill a plot important (not plot essential, if those guys die the entire plot needs to be rethought, because as per their name, the plot needs them to work.) I have twenty back-up plans. If a plot-essential person dies, I remind the PC's of what they have done and look for any contigency plans I might have.

And what does remdinding the PCs consist of? And how in character are they supposed to know that killing a specific NPC is somehow more of a problem than killing another?

Starbuck_II
2010-03-09, 08:46 PM
Lol, searched the thread and read the relevant sections. However, there was a fatal flaw at the end of the argument. Dragons are in fact Paralyzed when they reach dex 0, by RAW, using the exact word "Paralyzed". The fact that another part of RAW gives the definition of paralyzed instead of saying "Paralyzed" does not negate this fact.

If using SRD Conditions summary yes.

The DMG pg 289, however, is what all the text in the book refers in Conditions Summary:
And I quote: Dexterity 0 means the character cannot move at all. He stand motionless, rigid, and helpless.

Using term paralyzed is just the easiest way to sum that up: it isn't the official Paralyzed condition.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 08:47 PM
And what does remdinding the PCs consist of? And how in character are they supposed to know that killing a specific NPC is somehow more of a problem than killing another?

I OOCly remind them that this being is needed for the current plot and I'm going to have to take out a sheet to remind me on what to do in case he dies.