GitP Chess Match: Team White

[Eloel]

Hail, everyone who's supporting Team White, I seem to be the organizer of this team, so let's go :)

If noone has an objection, I'd recommend 1.e4, just for the ease it'll provide to everyone.

[pendell]

Is no one else going to participate? Then I'll sign on with Team White.

I suggest 1d4 to go for a Queen's Gambit opening.

Disclaimer: I am an unrated chess novice whose main experience is beating Battlechess but getting pulverized by GNUChess for years. Haven't played regularly since the early 90s.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Rama]

I'll join white, used to be good though I'm a bit rusty. Also a bit hazy on what's going on; is there a board being played somewhere that we can look at?

I'm a fan of 1. e4 playing into the italian game, although if you want to throw them a loop we could go with the english (1. c4). I've played that a few times with reasonable success.

[Thufir]

Rama, pendell, I'm afraid you don't get to choose your team. It's determined by the last vowel to appear in your name. Yours are A and E, respectively, which puts you both on team black if you want to participate. Now get out of our thread!

I take the general silence as indication that no-one objects to 1. e4. Play it.

[Rama]

Looks to me like white is the side that needs help, since black has 20+ signed up and white has two responders. But I guess I'll just observe then.

[pendell]

Team White,

I must respectfully request an exception to the rule. The rule has so far
generated minimal response from people with the appropriate letters. In the interest of getting this game off the ground, I request admission to Team White.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Thufir]

Technically there are just as many people signed up to Team White, since the lists come from just everyone who posted in the original chess thread, divided according to the last vowel as I said.
Ozgun, maybe you could PM them? I think Lin Bayaseda PMed the black team. The worst they can do is say they won't take part, in which case, we get to have more influence on the course of the game.

[Eloel]

Technically there are just as many people signed up to Team White, since the lists come from just everyone who posted in the original chess thread, divided according to the last vowel as I said.
Ozgun, maybe you could PM them? I think Lin Bayaseda PMed the black team. The worst they can do is say they won't take part, in which case, we get to have more influence on the course of the game.

I'm having trouble finding the exact post. Mind giving me a link/list so I can PM everyone up?
Also, where exactly am I supposed to post the move? I kind of got distracted by RL at the discussion, so couldn't follow.

[Bucky]

I've been assigned to team white (last vowel is 'Y'). I've played maybe two games of chess in the last year, and neither of them were against strong opponents, so I'm a bit rusty and will probably abstain from a bunch of votes.

[KaganMonk]

Chess moderator here, since no one else seemed inclined to do so. The game is posted at the link below, and I suggest that you edit it into your initial post. Your move. Also, if you need an exception to the team split due to lack of participation, let me know.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145137

Also, here's a list of people who were initially assigned to your team
Team White
ozgun92

Mirrinus
Winthur
Thufir
Smiling Knight
Mando Knight
Knaight
Milskidasith
Random Lunatic
Gralamin
Arti3
Zocelot
Faceroll
Player Zero
Rakkoon
Martok

[Vorpal word]

Well, since I'm technically on Team White, and I do play chess...

1. Nf3

It might not be too aggressive, but I like the King's Indian Attack. Or we could transpose into something like the Queen's Gambit or even a King Pawn Opening (after 1. ...Nc6)

[Studoku]

I've just found out about this. I'm with team white, thanks to my username (and we need the manpower).

I'm up for whatever openings people want. I'm tempted to say Danish Gambit, which I play when possible in real life for the shock value but it'll be less effective against multiple people in a postal game.

Still, my vote is for 1. e4 since I'm most familiar with it.

I'm going to be running the game in Chess Titans as a two player game to keep a picture of what the board looks like and posting the caps here. If anyone has a better program for this (which I don't doubt there is), I'll use it instead.

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/7324/chess1.png

[Bucky]

Still, my vote is for 1. e4 since I'm most familiar with it.


Seconded. 1.e4

[Thufir]

Right, we've started.

1. e4 c5

Sicilian. Open (2. Nf3) or Closed (2. Nc3)?
(There are other possibilities, but personally I'm not that fond of them)

[Bucky]

Sicilian. Open (2. Nf3) or Closed (2. Nc3)?
(There are other possibilities, but personally I'm not that fond of them)

Of those two, I would prefer Open.

[Studoku]

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/6180/chess2e.png

I vote Nf3.

[Eloel]

I vote 2.c3, for a twist on usual Sicillian Defense. It's slightly more defensive, but puts more pressure to center, just what we need.

[Studoku]

I vote 2.c3, for a twist on usual Sicillian Defense. It's slightly more defensive, but puts more pressure to center, just what we need.
Followed by 3.d4 depending what happens? I like it.

[Eloel]

Followed by 3.d4 depending what happens? I like it.

Yep, that's the idea. It's moving away from the cutting-edge memorized Sicillian variants like Dragon, into a more 'must.think.now' variant :)

[Studoku]

Yep, that's the idea. It's moving away from the cutting-edge memorized Sicillian variants like Dragon, into a more 'must.think.now' variant :)

I like the idea of moving into something a little more unorthodox.

2.c3 has my vote.

[Thufir]

I personally hate the 2. c3 Sicilian. It bores the hell out of me.

[Studoku]

I personally hate the 2. c3 Sicilian. It bores the hell out of me.
Try playing in a chess club where most of the players who actually know how to play play Giuoco Piano.:smalltongue:

[Thufir]

Try playing in a chess club where most of the players who actually know how to play play Giuoco Piano.:smalltongue:

Since I play the Sicilian, that wouldn't really cause me difficulty.

[Eloel]

Since I play the Sicilian, that wouldn't really cause me difficulty.

There lies the reason you hate 2.c3, it's nothing theoratical, so black, who's ready for it, doesn't like going out of theory :smallbiggrin:

[Eloel]

If noone else has an objection, c3 seems to be the move by the voting
c3 has 2 votes
Nf3 has 1 vote

I'll post it in an hour or two.

[Thufir]

There lies the reason you hate 2.c3, it's nothing theoratical, so black, who's ready for it, doesn't like going out of theory :smallbiggrin:

I'm... not entirely sure what you're saying here. When I said I hated the c3 Sicilian, I meant from the white side. I have a pretty good record of beating it as black.

[Studoku]

I'm... not entirely sure what you're saying here. When I said I hated the c3 Sicilian, I meant from the white side. I have a pretty good record of beating it as black.

Then it's a good thing you're on our side.

[Thufir]

They've played 2. ..d5.

Are there any decent moves other than 3.exd5 at this point?

[Studoku]

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/6859/chess3.png
I can't see any other good move.

3. e5 intrigued me at first, but it's probably a bad idea. We'd be trading a move for a little extra space and we'd probably have to work to defend the pawn. I just don't like encouraging black to put their queen in the centre.

[Bucky]

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/6859/chess3.png
I can't see any other good move.

3. e5 intrigued me at first, but it's probably a bad idea. We'd be trading a move for a little extra space and we'd probably have to work to defend the pawn. I just don't like encouraging black to put their queen in the centre.

Bb5+ and maybe Qa4+ are also worth examining. I'm not sure how it works out, but we might be able to either (a) pin something in the way of the queen or (b) trade queens. Either one leaves us up a pawn.

[Eloel]

Wait, there are alternatives to 3. exd5 at this point?

I'm voting for;

3. exd5 Qxd5
4. d4 Nc6
5. Nf3

Any objections? :p

[Bucky]

Wait, there are alternatives to 3. exd5 at this point?

I'm voting for;

3. exd5 Qxd5
4. d4 Nc6
5. Nf3

Any objections? :p

4.d4 exd4
5.cxd4

leaves us with a very vulnerable-looking center pawn.

[Eloel]

4.d4 exd4
5.cxd4

leaves us with a very vulnerable-looking center pawn.

That pawn is vulnerablish, but the amount of moves we earn by attacking the queen is worth alot more, I think.

[pendell]

There are indeed.

First of all, thank you, Ozgun, for letting me sign on.

The alternative I can think of would be d4. This would allow us to continue the pressure on the center while freeing up our queen-side bishop. The threat to the queen pawn from C5 is defended against by the queen and our bishop pawn.

Hmm .. correspondance rules allows us the use of books or databases. A quick examination of wikipedia reveals that this is the Alapin Variation of the Sicilian Defense (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Defence,_Alapin_Variation). The recommended moves are the two we have discussed so far: exd5 or d4.

My novice brain thought of a novice move as well: Use the bishop to put the king in check. But unless I miss my guess, this is a bad idea because it is blocked by Nc6. We move a bishop to an unsupportable position while giving the other side a 'free' move to develop the knight -- something they would probably do anyway. Is the reasoning correct?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Bucky]

My novice brain thought of a novice move as well: Use the bishop to put the king in check. But unless I miss my guess, this is a bad idea because it is blocked by Nc6. We move a bishop to an unsupportable position while giving the other side a 'free' move to develop the knight -- something they would probably do anyway. Is the reasoning correct?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

More or less. If they move the knight, we can grab a cheap pawn, but then we lose a lot of tempo.

[Eloel]

Choose one to vote in 3-ish hours, when I'll do our daily move.

a) exd5
b) Bb5

e5 is very weak. See French Opening: Advance Variation (which this would turn exactly into) - the worst of the 4 variants of French for white at that point.


My vote is for exd5

[pendell]

Well, a number of us recommended moving queen pawn to d4 .. that isn't a voting option?

Of the two options, I vote a) exd5.

While I dislike letting the opponent put major pieces in the center of the board, it's too early in the game for them to get much use out of the queen there. We should be able to drive the queen back in the course of development and gain tempo.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Bucky]

exd5.

Note that we're essentially forced to play c4 and/or d3 at some point to develop any of our queenside pieces. This line at least allows us to do so without losing much tempo, by threatening the queen with c4.

[Thufir]

3.exd5

And, in advance, assuming 3. ..Qxd5, 4.d4
I may not like this variation much but I know how it goes.

[Studoku]

3.exd5

10 chars

[Eloel]

Well, a number of us recommended moving queen pawn to d4 .. that isn't a voting option?

Of the two options, I vote a) exd5.

While I dislike letting the opponent put major pieces in the center of the board, it's too early in the game for them to get much use out of the queen there. We should be able to drive the queen back in the course of development and gain tempo.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

3.d4 loses the pawn on e4 for no gain - it's not like we're earning any moves either with Nc6 attacking our d4 pawn, and f3 being threathened by the new pawn there, blocking our Nf3, we'd either lose our d4 pawn or the ability to castle (by queen exchange) on top of that one pawn.

Either way, exd5 has been played

[pendell]

Well, that didn't take long (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8097206&postcount=11)

My initial thought is to do c4 as noted earlier, threatening the queen with a pawn protected by a bishop, pretty much forcing her to retreat and gaining tempo.

Thufir wishes to play d4. Educate me; why is this a better move? I'm willing to be persuaded.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Eloel]

Well, that didn't take long (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8097206&postcount=11)

My initial thought is to do c4 as noted earlier, threatening the queen with a pawn protected by a bishop, pretty much forcing her to retreat and gaining tempo.

Thufir wishes to play d4. Educate me; why is this a better move? I'm willing to be persuaded.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
d4 also sounds better to me, so I'll try my luck at persuasion :)

Here is the most likely scenario if we play c4...

4. c4 Qe4+
5. Qe2 (Be2 loses g2, Ne2 loses c4) Qxe2+
6. Bxe2 (Nxe2 blocks the bishop, Kxe2 is out of question) Nc6
Black has a more active position - not really something desirable for us.


Also, see Scandinavian Opening
1. e4 d5
2. exd5 Qxd5
3. c4?!

Black's arguably in a better position (with the c4). Now add to that another move for Black - any doubts?

[pendell]

I am persuaded. I vote d4 unless someone can come up with a better alternative. I confess I don't see one.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Studoku]

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/3793/chess4.png

I can't see any alternatives to c4 or d4. I'll go with d4 since c4 has been proven to be a poor idea.

[Studoku]

Is anyone there?

I'm going to vote d4 if nobody else is.

[pendell]

We're here. I had voted d4 as well, 3 posts up, and it has been played. The fools of Team Black have no chance to survive our wrath!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[pendell]

And ... we're off! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8113046&postcount=13) Black moves NC6.

It appears the knight will threaten our d4 pawn.

Hmm ... we can pin the knight with Bb5. They can counter by moving a bishop in position to block the pin.

Other moves ...

We can play Be3, double protecting the d4 pawn while blocking the rank to our king and developing a minor piece. Problem is that e3 seems a little bit of a defensive deployment, and if we want to maintain tempo we have to be a bit aggressive.

I suppose we can play Nf3, but I don't see how that helps put pressure on black.

White queen needs to stay where she is, protecting the d pawn.

...

I think I'd play Be3. That way if black makes a play for the d-pawn, we can (as play stands) bag a pawn and a knight. It won't happen that way, of course, but we at least have a chance of maintaining tempo.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Eloel]

Bb5 is countered easily by Bd7, leaving us where we started.
Be3 isn't the brightest idea either, since from there we continue play with one bishop down for some time - it'd effectively be a glorified pawn.

Nf3 defends the pawn, defend e5 from further threats, gets us one step closer to castling, and develops a piece of our own - win all around.

So, my vote is Nf3

[Studoku]

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/1057/chess5s.png
Nf3 sounds good.

Pinning the knight doesn't work- it leaves us open to Qxg2 and it gets worse from there.

[pendell]

I will change my vote NF3 also.

I have also changed my avatar temporarily to something more befitting Team WHite. Sorry, Stu, for the copycat, but WhiteWizardGirl doesn't fit me at all.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Thufir]

Play 5. Nf3.

[Studoku]

I will change my vote NF3 also.

I have also changed my avatar temporarily to something more befitting Team WHite. Sorry, Stu, for the copycat, but WhiteWizardGirl doesn't fit me at all.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
I'll use it then.

[Studoku]

They've played Bg4, pinning our knight.

I'd play Be2- it's similar to what they'd have done if we pinned them.

EDIT: Was worried for a second about black exchanging the knight and doing the mass exchange on d4, but this works. ...Bxf3 followed by Bxf3 threatens Bxd5 if the black queen doesn't get out of the way, so ...cxd4 isn't going to happen.

[pendell]

Thereby deploying our king bishop and making castling all that much more a reality -- which would also free up a rook on that file in one move. I like it.

Hmm ... are there any plausible alternatives? We can counter-pin at B5. If we take that knight, we can force black to
waste a move re-capturing the bishop, and if we had some other
plausible high-value capture while they are doing that ..

.. and even if we didn't, we would still force black to waste move
blocking the pin with the bishop the same way.

I'm noting that as an alternative. I'm not voting for it. Do we have
any other alternatives?

Another possible alternative, I suppose, might be Bg5, bishop guarded by knight, offering queen-and-bishop sacrifice for queen-and-bishop, then pick up the pawn at C5, giving us a 1-point material advantage while forfeiting castling.

I have an overriding concern about our play, and that is that we
seem to be playing predictably, reacting to black rather than vice
versa. We want THEM on the defensive, reacting to US. Black is seizing the initiative. Am I wrong?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Bucky]

I'm noting that as an alternative. I'm not voting for it. Do we have
any other alternatives?


We could play a greedy c4, forcing his queen to relocate and changing focus to the white squares.

[Eloel]

We could play a greedy c4, forcing his queen to relocate and changing focus to the white squares.

c4 could simply be answered by a Qxd4 - not really a fun idea, is it?
Qe4+ would also get our d4 pawn dawn easily.

I vote Be2, since Bb5 would be answered by Bxf3, which would end up with a 'very' screwed pawn structure with f2-f3 pawns. (their c-pawns are not as screwed, since they have the time to go cxd4.)

[Studoku]

Bb5 is answered by Nxf3. gxf3 is the only response (we can exchange queens first but it still happens) and I don't like the idea of having isolated double pawns in the f file and a hole in our kingside that'd make castling there useless.


I have an overriding concern about our play, and that is that we seem to be playing predictably, reacting to black rather than viceversa. We want THEM on the defensive, reacting to US. Black is seizing the initiative. Am I wrong?
I think we have to be a bit defensive while black's queen is marauding around the centre of the board.

If we move the bishop this turn and castle next turn, we will have more options. dxc5 should be fun once we have a rook protecting the queen instead of our king.

[Eloel]

I think we have to be a bit defensive while black's queen is marauding around the centre of the board.

If we move the bishop this turn and castle next turn, we will have more options. dxc5 should be fun once we have a rook protecting the queen instead of our king.
See it as this:
Black has to keep threathening stuff, or they'll get screwed faster than they can see they are screwed. If we can block the threats all the way, we win.

[pendell]

Well, I vote Be2 because my objections have been answered. Yes, we must play defensively while black's queen is at the center of the board, and with luck they'll make a rash mistake of some kind we can capitalize on, then seize the initiative back.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Thufir]

I have an overriding concern about our play, and that is that we
seem to be playing predictably, reacting to black rather than vice
versa. We want THEM on the defensive, reacting to US. Black is seizing the initiative. Am I wrong?

I think the error we made in this regard was playing 2. c3. This is just how the line goes.

Be2.

[pendell]

So what will black do once we make that play? Looking at the board, would a black move pe7-e5, freeing their black-square bishop and threatening our d-pawn four times which we defend thrice,be unreasonable?

Or might they move the rook to d8, thereby having a rook and a queen on that file?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Thufir]

..e5 loses a pawn to dxe5.
..Rd8 they could do, in which case we defend again with Be3, at which point their c5 pawn is under genuine threat which they must do something about, probably by playing 6. ..cxd4 7. cxd4, setting us up to drive their Q away with Nc3, also we're ready for O-O.

[Studoku]

They might take the d pawn with cxd4 anyway.

At this point, all hell breaks loose and we may end up having to move our king.

EDIT: Just had a quick look through using a board. It doesn't end too badly for us.

I'm guessing they'll play Rd8 too, which gets a little worrying.

EDIT: Actually, we can respond to that, or several other moves with dxc5. We end up taking the initiative or winning material.

[Thufir]

6. ..cxd4 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8147648#post8147648)

7. cxd4

[Studoku]

cxd4

EDIT:
Actually, I'm going to suggest Nxd4.

cxd4 is followed by 0-0-0 and we have an isolated pawn with multiple things threatening it that will cost a lot to defend.

EDITEDIT: Nevermind, that leads to Qxg2. This is why I hate letting my opponent develop his queen early.

Still thinking- now I'm tempted to leave the pawn for now- it's not like it's easy for black to defend.

EDITEDITEDIT:How do people feel about c4? (The move- not the explosive).

[Eloel]

cxd4, obviously. 0-0-0 is 'very' weak, due to Nc3 leaving us superior.

[pendell]

cxd4

We can't let the black gain any material advantage if we can help it.

I'm frankly surprised black did this. But to my novice mind , it looks like they're going to force us to forfeit castling. I see the line proceeding
cxd4 Nxd4
Nxd4 Bxe2

so we either sacrifice our knight in the center of the board by Qxe2, or we forfeit castling by Kxe2. That leaves us up 2 points (we have 1 extra knight but 1 less pawn), and we can pseudo-castle in a couple moves, but that's a lot of tempo to eat. Meanwhile, the black queen is still at the center of the board. In either scenario.

I have no way to judge our relative strengths. I suspect a truly good player could sacrifice a minor piece for a positional advantage, then proceed to win the game. Knights aren't so useful in an open game, and an extra pawn advantage is killer in the endgame. But *I* wouldn't try such a thing, because I frankly stink. I don't have the skill to deliberately incur a material disadvantage and then win. Doesn't mean they don't , of course.

Since I am a novice, I welcome correction by those more experienced.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Thufir]

cxd4 Nxd4
Nxd4 Bxe2
Qxd4 Qxd4
Nxd4

Leaves us a piece up. So, not really going to happen.

[pendell]

So what will black do now, do you think? Aside from moving the queen rook to reinforce the queen file, I can't think of anything they can do that won't either A) sacrifice tempo or B) put them in a bad position.

Black's king-side seems awfully cramped, don't you think?

Hmm .. how about this ...

... Bxf3
Bxf3 Qxd4

forcing the queen exchange, black is a pawn up.

black also threatens N-c2, forking the king and rook
in a most horrible manner.

so we move B-e4, preventing the fork. Result:
we're down a pawn.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Eloel]

e6 is played. I think it's time for Nc3, threathening the queen while developing a piece.

[pendell]

Concur with Nc3 They may respond with Bb4, pinning the knight against the king. We respond by castling king-side.

What other responses could black reasonably come back with?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Thufir]

Nc3 filler

[Studoku]

Nc3- I can't see any alternatives.

[Eloel]

They played Qa5.

Anyone against playing 0-0?

[pendell]

Concur with 0-0.

I don't understand black's move. They gave up tempo in order to force us to do a move we've been wanting to do for awhile anyway. What do they hope to achieve?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Thufir]

I don't understand black's move. They gave up tempo in order to force us to do a move we've been wanting to do for awhile anyway. What do they hope to achieve?

You mean other than not losing their queen?

O-O.

[pendell]

You mean other than not losing their queen?

O-O.

Yes; Of course even a novice like me will avoid losing the queen. I was wondering if there was a move that would indeed save the queen while *also* prevent us from gaining tempo.

You saw the way I was thinking several moves ago: Black's queen in the center of the board could have resulted in a queen exchange and the gain of a pawn. I'd have accepted that; give me a 1 pawn advantage and I'll ruthlessly exchange the rest away , then overpower in the endgame with my material advantage. I guess it's not what black wanted to do.

And as defensive moves go, their queen is still out on the 5th rank and dangerously exposed.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Studoku]

0-0 is a valid move, but I'm somewhat partial to Bd2, setting up a potential discovered attack on black's queen.

It also gives us the opportunity to put our rook on the open c-file once the queen is away from the a-pawn.

[pendell]

Thinking ahead ...
After we castle, what do you think of an eventual
Nb5, setting up a move
to Nc7, forking rook and king?
If they move the rook to C8,
we can go Nd6, again forking rook and king.

I don't suppose they'll give us such an opportunity,
but it's worth thinking about.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Studoku]

I'm going to pitch another suggestion.

d5

The isolated pawn is weak and is going to cause problems. This way, it threatens things. Assuming black goes for the mass exchange, we end up with:

http://www.chessvideos.tv/bimg/g50mblmqt5sg.png (http://www.chessvideos.tv/chess-diagram-generator.php?fen=r3kbnr/pp3ppp/2n5/3N4/6b1/5N2/PP2BPPP/R1B1K2R)

[pendell]

I'm beginning to really like Bd2. The move deserves more comment. Coupled with the possibilities I outlined with the queen side knight -- the discovered attack gives us time to make one more move, which could very well be a fork or what not.

Note that this is a call for discussion. My vote remains 0-0 for the present, but the possibility deserves discussion, perhaps.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Studoku]

Definately. Forcing the queen to move also makes stuff with the d-pawn easier.

My vote is back to Bd2.

[Eloel]

Bd2 Bxf3
Bxf3 Nxd4
Bxb7 Rb8

That doesn't end too well for us.

The point is, they don't have the move the queen - we have no 'double-threat' move with our knight.

[Studoku]

Fair enough.

I'm going back to d5 or 0-0

[Eloel]

I'll move in 1 hour, if no drastic change in votes occur.

Its
3x 0-0
1x d5
right now.

[pendell]

They've moved Nf6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8198175&postcount=25).

I'm out of ideas. All I can think to do is develop our queen bishop -- perhaps to g5 -- thereby putting a bit more pressure on black while opening our queen rook up a bit. I don't see there's much we can do with the knights at this point -- sending them up to the 5-rank would cause mutual annihilation, any where else relinquishes the center.

We still have the option of Bb5 to pin the queen knight. I suppose we can also play Nb5 as well, but we've already discussed that option and didn't like how it ended.

I'm wondering how much longer this can go on before a general massacre occurs in the center of the board.

Option remains to play Bd2, allowing a discovered attack on the queen.

It looks to me as if black is preparing to castle king-side. That will take at least two moves. Can we capitalize on the mandatory loss of tempo they will incur?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Eloel]

Be3 looks useful to me, with the 'develop a piece' idea, 'defend the weak point' idea and 'get Rooks into the game' idea (opens up C file) combined.

Before anyone suggests, I thought on a few moves.

Ne5 is answered by Bxe2. At that point, there are 3 courses of play.

a) Qxe2. Answered by Nxd4 - loss.
b) Nxe2. Answered by Nxe5, losing a pawn there. We gain some attacking capabilities, but nothing significant.
c) Nxc6. Answered by Qxc3.

We have 2 alternatives at that point:
c1) bxc3. After Bxd1 Rxd1 bxc6, we're a knight down.
c2) Qxe2. After Qxc6, we're a knight down.

So, it doesn't really play out well.

Bb5's a good looking move that has one let-down, after Rd8 followed inevitably by e5, we can't defend the d4 pawn.

Bf4 suffers from that same problem.

Bg5 is suicidal, since it'll be followed by either
a) Bxf3 Bxf3 Qxg5, netting them a knight.
or
b) Bxf3 Bxf6 Bxe2 gxf6, netting them a bishop.

Nb5 is equally suicidal, with the following options after their Bxf3 on our part:
a) Bxf3 Qxb5. Dead knight, dead game.
b) gxf3. Come one come all to the revealed King!
c) Bd2 Bxe2

c1) Qxe2 Qb6, knight down.
c2) Bxa5 Bxd1

c2a) Rxd1 Nxa5 Nc7 Kd7 Nxa8 Bd6. A rook vs 2 Knights & a Bishop. NO!
c2b) Nc7 Kd7 Nxa8 Nxa5 Rxd1 Bd6. A rook vs 2 Knights & a Bishop. NO!

Any other alternatives to Be3?

[Studoku]

Qd3? (that's a question mark- not a bad move symbol of course)

It makes Bd2 possible and, if black castles, allows Nb5, potentially threatening Qxh7.

[Thufir]

We could also consider simply h3 - to try and resolve the situation with the Bg4 and the Nf3.

Be3 may well be the best option though.

[Eloel]

Qd3 Rd8 Be3 (gotta defend the pawn) e5. Bye d4, it was nice knowing you.
h3 looks useful, I have no problem with it if it comes out as the vote.

[Studoku]

Qd3 Rd8 Be3 (gotta defend the pawn) e5.

Followed by R(f)d1?

If black exchanges everything at that point, we don't come out too badly. Besides, I'm sick of the goddamned d-pawn.

[Eloel]

Followed by R(f)d1?

If black exchanges everything at that point, we don't come out too badly. Besides, I'm sick of the goddamned d-pawn.

I missed b7 being free to grab. I change my vote to Qd3, however experimental that might be.

This is what I foresee, if they attack and eventually grab the d4 pawn.
http://www.chessvideos.tv/bview.php?id=eu5afg17ezso

[Studoku]

Looks like fun.

Qd3 is my official vote

[Thufir]

I missed b7 being free to grab. I change my vote to Qd3, however experimental that might be.

This is what I foresee, if they attack and eventually grab the d4 pawn.
http://www.chessvideos.tv/bview.php?id=eu5afg17ezso

So, let's see, you're assuming:
10. Qd3 Rd8
11. Be3 e5
12. Rfd1 Bxf3
13. Bxf3 Nxd4
14. Bxd4 Rxd4
15. Qb5+ Qxb5
16. Nxb5 Rxd1+
17. Rxd1

OK, you're right, that looks reasonable for us. So, why would they play it again?
On move 12, they have nothing solid to gain by making the exchange, they can just keep piling up pressure, by for example ..Bb4 (Threatening ..Bxc3 bxc3 e4) or ..Bc5, continuing to pile up on the d-pawn.

My vote is for Be3. We need to get the d-pawn protected so we can move the Q somewhere else and avoid these problems.

As a sidenote, I'm also kind of sick of the d-pawn. But the isolated d-pawn is basically inevitable in the c3 sicilian. Indeed the fact it leads to defensive positions like this is why I don't play it.

[Eloel]

It's 2-1 to Qd3 by my count, an hour or two and I'll post that, we're running out of schedule.


On move 12, they have nothing solid to gain by making the exchange, they can just keep piling up pressure, by for example ..Bb4 (Threatening ..Bxc3 bxc3 e4) or ..Bc5, continuing to pile up on the d-pawn.

As soon as they don't 'directly' attack the pawn, we move our queen out of the pin. From there, we exchange the pawns, and we're in a superior position (due to the development of our pieces)

[pendell]

I vote Qd3. While I am no expert, my intuition says that defensive, 'safe' play will sacrifice tempo and eventually cost us the game. Let's get a little aggressive.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Thufir]

It's 2-1 to Qd3 by my count, an hour or two and I'll post that, we're running out of schedule.

No, we're not. We don't have a schedule. And given the slow rate of discussion on here, I don't think we should impose any kind of restriction on that


As soon as they don't 'directly' attack the pawn, we move our queen out of the pin. From there, we exchange the pawns, and we're in a superior position (due to the development of our pieces)

A) Where specifically do we move the Q to?
B) And if they do directly attack the pawn? By say, Bc5, as I just pointed out they could?


While I am no expert, my intuition says that defensive, 'safe' play will sacrifice tempo and eventually cost us the game. Let's get a little aggressive.

Being aggressive does not work so well if you're in a position which calls for defence. You're liable to gain your activity at the cost of losing whatever it was you should've been defending. This generally leaves your opponent in a somewhat advantageous position.

[Eloel]

No, we're not. We don't have a schedule. And given the slow rate of discussion on here, I don't think we should impose any kind of restriction on that
Was talking about the 'one move a day' schedule...




A) Where specifically do we move the Q to?
B) And if they do directly attack the pawn? By say, Bc5, as I just pointed out they could?

A)Qb5 looks good to me.
B) Ditto. Qb5 pins the knight so the pawn is not in immediate danger, and if they exchange the queens, our knight is now in a defending position to the pawn. After a few exchanges at that point (if they don't exchange directly, we force it with dxe5), it's us who has a more active position, thanks to them not having castled at all.

http://www.chessvideos.tv/bimg/xttmccqwyz4.png (http://www.chessvideos.tv/chess-diagram-generator.php?fen=3rk2r/pp3ppp/2n2n2/qQb1p3/3P2b1/2N1BN2/PP2BPPP/R2R2K1)



Being aggressive does not work so well if you're in a position which calls for defence. You're liable to gain your activity at the cost of losing whatever it was you should've been defending. This generally leaves your opponent in a somewhat advantageous position.

Qd3 is not an 'aggressive' move. It's trying to escape the pin(s), while freeing up spaces for more defense (Rd1).

Also, one thing that has bothered me forever. Is it Defence or Defense?

[Eloel]

They played 0-0-0. Anyone else think this is a 'major' blunder?

Still, we need to defend d4, and now. So, Be3?

[pendell]

No, we're not. We don't have a schedule. And given the slow rate of discussion on here, I don't think we should impose any kind of restriction on that


I respectfully disagree. If we take a long time, then black will likewise take a long time, then the game dies for lack of interest, as have most of the roleplaying games in the games folders.

I think turning around a move in 24 hours is not unreasonable, especially since it's a lot more time than tournament chess ever offers.


They played 0-0-0. Anyone else think this is a 'major' blunder?


They ... they forfeited their castling privilege by moving their king to an open file?

Their queen side is almost completely exposed.

Yes, I'd call it a 'blunder'. *IF* we wind up winning, then 0-0-0 should be marked 0-0-0?? on the annotation. If they win and this is some clever gambit, it gets 0-0-0!? -- a bold and risky move that few can pull off successfully.



Still, we need to defend d4, and now. So, Be3?
[/quote]

Agree with Be3 . There's precious little else we can do to add to the defense, and this frees up both our rooks for movement on the 1-rank.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Thufir]

I respectfully disagree. If we take a long time, then black will likewise take a long time, then the game dies for lack of interest, as have most of the roleplaying games in the games folders.

I think turning around a move in 24 hours is not unreasonable, especially since it's a lot more time than tournament chess ever offers.

Tournament chess only has one person playing each side. We have to consult, share analysis, and so on. In general, thus far it's been reasonable enough. But if/when we arrive at a more complicated position which requires more carfeful consideration, I don't want us to lose because half the votes happen before a crucial piece of analysis.

Be3.

[Studoku]

Be3

It protect the pawn and allows Rc1- potentially doing some damage to black's king's position.

[Eloel]

Be3 played

[pendell]

They've played Nd5 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8232684&postcount=29) .

Thoughts:

1) We can move our king rook to an open file. The queen-side rook has to
stay where it is or Black's queen may gobble the queen rook pawn.

2) We can accept the exchange NxN. That square is now attacked 3 ways. Are they hoping to eventually double up on that file?

3) We can play a3. Those queen side pawns are becoming more and more exposed. Starting to move them up could pressure the queen on the 5-rank.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Eloel]

Stuff that needs noting:


That knight is worthless. One exchange, and we've a pawn defending our pawn, no longer isolated.
Bf5 can be answered by Qb5, and grabbed with bishop eventually, since the knight is no longer threathened.
Nxd5 should be avoided. After Rxd5, the attack on d4 only increases.
h3 should be avoided. King-side should remain unmoved, since pawns at their starting places are the hardest to attack.
Rac1 looks interesting, since after Nxc3 Rxc3, Qxa2 is a ?? move, since Ne5 destroys black at that point. If they don't go Nxc3, the pseudo-pin is useful for gaining tempo AND open lines.

[pendell]

Stuff that needs noting:


That knight is worthless. One exchange, and we've a pawn defending our pawn, no longer isolated.
Bf5 can be answered by Qb5, and grabbed with bishop eventually, since the knight is no longer threathened.
Nxd5 should be avoided. After Rxd5, the attack on d4 only increases.
h3 should be avoided. King-side should remain unmoved, since pawns at their starting places are the hardest to attack.
Rac1 looks interesting, since after Nxc3 Rxc3, Qxa2 is a ?? move, since Ne5 destroys black at that point. If they don't go Nxc3, the pseudo-pin is useful for gaining tempo AND open lines.


I notice you didn't address my thoughts on moving the queen side pawns. You mentioned the king-side, but I agree those should stay where they are. Feedback?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Eloel]

I notice you didn't address my thoughts on moving the queen side pawns. You mentioned the king-side, but I agree those should stay where they are. Feedback?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I don't see the point of moving queen-side pawns. Pawns are easy to block, and there's a bunch of resistance on the way, along with the fact that it'd take tens of moves to actually be able to get pawns going securely.

[Studoku]

Rac1 then?

[Thufir]

I think you mean Rac1.

[Studoku]

Editted. Thanks.

[pendell]

It doesn't appear that we have any other moves in contention beside Rac1.


Thus, I vote Rac1 unless someone has a better idea in the next few hours.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[pendell]

Black has played Kb8 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8251087&postcount=31). Seems a bit passive.

Let's see ..
... we can't move the bishops because they are pretty
well fenced in by our own pieces, although I suppose we could move Bd2, threatening a discovered attack on the queen if we move the knight.

There's no point in moving the pawns.

... we already decided against NxN. We can also move Ne4, but
I don't think that gives us anything.

.. Qc4 would increase the pressure on the C file, doubling up rook
and queen.

Other thoughts? Black has given us tempo. We must find
a way to capitalize on it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Studoku]

The C file doesn't seem that important now that black's king has moved. The knight is in the way.

I was thinking Ng5, threatening the fork on f7.

[pendell]

Erm .. .guys? It's been four days. We need to move fairly soon, I think.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[pendell]

Gentles,

it has now been nearly a week since the last move. If we haven't heard from anyone by Friday of this week, we have to decide whether to put the game on hiatus, or whether I will make Stuh's move on behalf of Team White, since I have no better ideas.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[pendell]

Guys? I will move Ng5 at 5 PM Eastern Time on Friday, 16 APR, unless I hear a reason not to. I know that Ozgun is team captain, but it's been a full week.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[pendell]

I have moved Ng5 per Stu's suggestion. Sorry guys, but it's been 8 days.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Bucky]

I have completely lost track of the state of the game. What's going on?

[pendell]

Hi, Bucky.

Kagan has thoughtfully provided a diagram of the current state of the board two moves ago in the first thread here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145137). If you read the last page, you can see the moves we've made since Kagan updated the board, if you understand algebraic notation.

You can also find a chess diagramming tool here (http://www.chessvideos.tv/chess-diagram-generator.php) and elsewhere on the web. You can re-enact the moves. We are currently in mid-game and it looks like we're about to have a massacre in the center of the board.

The 13th move of the game has been played thus:

13. Ng5 Bxe2

I haven't even set up my board yet to see what's going to happen there yet, but it looks like the general massacre at the center of the board we've been setting up for awhile is about to occur. Thoughts?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Thufir]

14. Qxe2 is the way to go here.
Then 14. ..Nxe3 15. Qxe3 Rxd4 16. Nxf7 Rg8 17. Rfd1 looks reasonable, or
14. ..Nxc3 15. bxc3 opens the b-file for attack, sets up a potential central pawn advance and defends a2 with the Q, also we're still threatening Nxf7.

[pendell]

You think so? Why not use the knight to take the bishop, instead? I wonder if pulling the queen off the d-file would not surrender the file to them.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Thufir]

We want our queen off the d-file, out of the path of their rook. The knight is well placed where it is.

[pendell]

You have persuaded me. I also vote Qxe2 and will so move at 5 PM EDT Friday unless Ozgun comes and does it first. Has anyone seen him?


In any case, this is what I see happening next:

Qxe2 NxB
QxN Nxd4
Putting them a pawn up, since if we re-take
we'll lose the queen.

How do we avoid that?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Bucky]

Qxe2 NxB
QxN Nxd4
Putting them a pawn up, since if we re-take
we'll lose the queen.

How do we avoid that?


Probably with a counterattack:

Qxe2 NxB
Nxf7

[Thufir]

In any case, this is what I see happening next:

Qxe2 NxB
QxN Nxd4
Putting them a pawn up, since if we re-take
we'll lose the queen.

How do we avoid that?


14. ..Nxe3 15. Qxe3 Rxd4 16. Nxf7 Rg8 17. Rfd1

If they take on d4 with the knight, as you suggest, it's even better for us, since we fork their rooks.
@Bucky: No, we recapture on e3 first, because our own rook is under attack.

[pendell]

They've played Nxe3 .

I'm tired and almost out of ideas, but we want to do Qxe3, yes?. What do you think?

Respectfully,

Brian p.

[Bucky]

They've played Nxe3 .

I'm tired and almost out of ideas, but we want to do Qxe3, yes?. What do you think?

Respectfully,

Brian p.

The other option is to go for the fork at Nxf7 right away and make the rook for rook, knight, pawn exchange.

[Thufir]

If Nxf7, Nxf1:
a) Kxf1 they move the bishop and whichever rook we take they come out with an extra piece for a pawn.
b) Nxd8 Qxd8 piece for pawn again.
c) Nxh8 Nxh2 Kxh2 Qc7+ followed by moving the bishop will trap the knight, leaving them just a piece up.

So Qxe3.

[pendell]

Very well; we've had three votes but I'm hoping for more discussion. But if no more is forthcoming we will move at 5 PM Wednesday, Eastern Time.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[pendell]

Qxe3 played.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[pendell]

They've played Qf5

1. e4 c5
2. c3 d5
3. exd5 Qxd5
4. d4 Nc6
5. Nf3 Bg4
6. Be2 cxd4
7. cxd4 e6
8. Nc3 Qa5
9. 0-0 Nf6
10. Qd3 0-0-0
11. Be3 Nd5
12. Rac1 Kb8
13. Ng5 Bxe2
14. Qxe2 Nxe3
15. Qxe3 Qf5

Thus blocking our fork.

I'm puzzling over what to do ... I'm thinking we could move our queen knight to d4, opening up the C-file for our rook.

They have an open d-file.

They have a bishop and knight while we have two knights. This is a slight advantage for black in open game like this, I think.

Another possibility might be to move our king rook to e1, doubling our strength on that file with the queen.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[pendell]

*Bump*. We still haven't decided on our next move.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[pendell]

Gentles, it's been nearly a month. I propose Rd1.

That's probably a lousy move, but we've had this on hold for long enough, don't you think?

Or shall we just forfeit?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[pendell]

Doesn't matter anymore. Black has decided we forfeited. The game is over.

Respectfully,

Brian P.