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Rezby
2010-03-09, 01:21 AM
I keep seeing people talking about how cheesy the kobold is as a race... while it really doesn't seem to be so broken to me.

The only real reason I can think of as to why one would play a Kobold Paladin is that their god hates all non-kobolds so its free RP-incentive to go kill everything in sight, but I see no mechanics-wise cheese here.

What am I missing?

chiasaur11
2010-03-09, 01:26 AM
I keep seeing people talking about how cheesy the kobold is as a race... while it really doesn't seem to be so broken to me.

The only real reason I can think of as to why one would play a Kobold Paladin is that their god hates all non-kobolds so its free RP-incentive to go kill everything in sight, but I see no mechanics-wise cheese here.

What am I missing?

Dragonborns and the king of all cheaty deals with the devil.

Separate issues, of course.

Apropos
2010-03-09, 01:28 AM
Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold = Epic level madness at level one.

Rezby
2010-03-09, 01:34 AM
so they have +3 to Int, Wis, and Cha? :/ Yes, stat bonuses are nice. Its a little silly, but not that cheesy.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-09, 02:09 AM
The cheese comes in when you interpret those stat bonuses as "advancement." Under that interpretation dragonwrought kobolds are considered true dragons and as a result qualify for epic feats via a piece of poorly worded rules text in the draconomicon. I personally think that interpretation is ludicrous but some people ascribe to it.

JaronK
2010-03-09, 02:10 AM
so they have +3 to Int, Wis, and Cha? :/ Yes, stat bonuses are nice. Its a little silly, but not that cheesy.

Dragonwrought Kobold with Wyrm of War. Spend one feat, gain 5. Yehaw. I actually made a Kobold Cleric/PrC Paladin like that, and yeah, it's nasty.

JaronK

Rezby
2010-03-09, 02:23 AM
...Thats one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. An old kobold with dragon-blood being a true dragon....

Where's Wyrm of War? It wasn't in any of the Dragon books I have (I don't have any of the magazines, though. Was it from one of those?)

Also how can you prestige class into a normal class? Or is there a very badly named prestige class called paladin?

JaronK
2010-03-09, 02:28 AM
...Thats one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. An old kobold with dragon-blood being a true dragon....

Dragons of Krynn defines true dragons as being any dragon with age catagories. Kobolds have them. Draconomicon agrees with this definition, and Races of the Dragon constantly talks up how Kobolds love the idea of being just like the other true dragons, plus the backstory they give indicates that Kobolds are made of True Dragon god blood. So, not that rediculous at all.


Where's Wyrm of War? It wasn't in any of the Dragon books I have (I don't have any of the magazines, though. Was it from one of those?)

Dragons of Eberron, which is what made the fact that Kobolds are True Dragons something horrifically powerful, instead of just a funny note.


Also how can you prestige class into a normal class? Or is there a very badly named prestige class called paladin?

Unearthed Arcana or SRD will help you there.

JaronK

Rezby
2010-03-09, 02:38 AM
Kobolds aren't true dragons, their a dragonling/dragonoid race, though there are varying definitions of true dragons... its still rather silly.

Do you mean Gestalting?

Edit: holy crud. I never saw those before in Unearthed Arcana.

Melamoto
2010-03-09, 02:57 AM
I'm surprised nobody has specifically mentioned what Kobold Paladins do yet.

So, there's this demon, Pazuzu. He likes corrupting things, especially Paladins, and will answer anyone who calls his name three times. He will give 3 wishes to any Paladins who call on him, in order to make them fall. The Kobold Paladin then uses these 3 wishes to become Pun-Pun (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869366/The_most_powerful_character._EVER.). The Kobold wins D&D.

Edit:
Kobolds aren't true dragons, their a dragonling/dragonoid race, though there are varying definitions of true dragons... its still rather silly.
There has been a lot of debate about this, but I'm pretty sure that in one of the books (Draconomicon I think), it says that a True Dragon is defined as a Dragon who has age categories of advancement. Kobolds have age categories of advancement. Dragonwrought Kobolds are Dragons who have age categories of advancement. Dragonwrought Kobolds are True Dragons.

JaronK
2010-03-09, 03:18 AM
Yeah, it's actually pretty straight forward when you look at the relevant information (Draconomicon, page 4 or 6, and Dragons of Krynn in the feat section). Those are the only two straight forward "this is what a True Dragon is" sections found anywhere, and they're both in agreement. There are a few other areas that are less useful. Monster Manual has a section on it but it's "here's what known True Dragons generally are" which isn't an exclusive definition (and that definition doesn't apply to the majority of True Dragons, including White Dragons, Gem Dragons, Lung Dragons, and Planar Dragons). Races of the Dragon is useful as well, as that's the book that talks most about Kobolds (and is the one that establishes that they have age catagories). Plus that book gives the Dragonwrought feat, makes darn sure every aspect of True Dragon is covered by that feat, and then goes on to talk about how much Kobolds want to be True Dragons anyway ("The dragon scale toughens our skin. The dragon bone adorns our skull. The dragon heart flames our sorcery. We are the dragon, and for the dragon we live. Long live the dragon."). They have rituals for being more dragon like (Searching for the Dragon). Then there's lines like this one in their relations to other races section: "True Dragons: The body and soul of any kobold is dedicated to dragons, whether literally or figuratively. Kobolds search for the dragon in themselves, and they pledge themselves to the dragon in their rites of passage." And so on. And the Kobold origin? "There, the true dragons did as Io instructed, each severing a single limb... Furthermore, wherever the dragons' blood had spilled, little creatures began to emerge out of the ground with alert, crimson eyes, already looking up at their creators for guidance. Thus were kobolds born..." Yeah, Kobolds are actually formed entirely out of true dragon blood, a result of Io's direct command.

So it's pretty hard to claim that the fact that Races of the Dragon made a feat that in every way makes a Kobold a True Dragon is an accident. There's TONS of fluff pointing them in that direction. Why else would they remove aging penalties from dragonwrought kobolds while giving them the dragon type and making it clear that they have age catagories? Why else state that all Dragonwrought Kobolds are either chromatic or metallic? The accident was in Dragons of Eberron making the fact that something's a True Dragon actually powerful.

JaronK

Roderick_BR
2010-03-09, 10:17 AM
I keep seeing people talking about how cheesy the kobold is as a race... while it really doesn't seem to be so broken to me.

The only real reason I can think of as to why one would play a Kobold Paladin is that their god hates all non-kobolds so its free RP-incentive to go kill everything in sight, but I see no mechanics-wise cheese here.

What am I missing?
That a racist/speciecist that kill stuff just because it's not the favored specie doesn't really spell "paladin"?
If you go variant paladin and get one of the evil ones, go ahead.

Dyllan
2010-03-09, 10:45 AM
So it's pretty hard to claim that the fact that Races of the Dragon made a feat that in every way makes a Kobold a True Dragon is an accident. There's TONS of fluff pointing them in that direction. Why else would they remove aging penalties from dragonwrought kobolds while giving them the dragon type and making it clear that they have age catagories? Why else state that all Dragonwrought Kobolds are either chromatic or metallic? The accident was in Dragons of Eberron making the fact that something's a True Dragon actually powerful.

And I think it's safe to assume that the designer intent for the material in Dragons of Eberron was *not* for it to apply to Kobolds. I find it hard to believe that any DM would allow that, unless they were intentionally trying to make the PCs massively overpowered.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-09, 04:50 PM
The bottom line on the whole "Kobolds are True Dragons" thing is this: under a certain interpretation of RAW it's true, but don't ever expect to fly that interpretation past any DM and get anything but laughter in all but the most brokenly powerful games.

Zeta Kai
2010-03-09, 05:53 PM
The bottom line on the whole "Kobolds are True Dragons" thing is this: under a certain interpretation of RAW it's true, but don't ever expect to fly that interpretation past any DM and get anything but laughter in all but the most brokenly powerful games.

I see no reason to say that kobolds (especially DW kobolds) aren't True Dragons. But I also see no reason for that to mean much mechanically.

TaintedLight
2010-03-09, 05:59 PM
Yeah, it's crap like Dragonwrought that's specifically designed to be abused that makes me reject pretty much all characters with Kobold written anywhere on their cover page (except maybe as favored enemies). If you want the fluff of being descended from a dragon, that's great. You're descended from a dragon. That does not entitle you to freely abuse the rules however you like.

Rezby
2010-03-09, 06:09 PM
And I think it's safe to assume that the designer intent for the material in Dragons of Eberron was *not* for it to apply to Kobolds. I find it hard to believe that any DM would allow that, unless they were intentionally trying to make the PCs massively overpowered.

So a Dragonwrought Kobold wouldn't be horribly-overpowered if the DM just banned Dragons of Eberron.

Roderick, that just seems to me to be a "DERP DERP, I'M A PALADIN WHO CAN KILL OTHER GOOD CREATURES IN THE NAME OF MY DEITY SINCE I'M MORE LAWFUL THAN GOOD DERP DERP."

Delcan
2010-03-09, 09:40 PM
I'm not too familiar with the more intricate elements of v3.5 minmaxing, so I can't speak for any overpowered kobold builds.

However, I can say that a kobold paladin is strangely good at what they do in a non-powergamey game. If you manage to make up for the low strength, playing a paladin that can effectively stealth is an excellent take on the class. Not to mention that being able to have a war dog and take your Mounted Combat feat tree into a dungeon is really, really useful.

Not to mention that making Labyrinth jokes (http://muppet.wikia.com/wiki/Sir_Didymus) almost never gets old.

Pluto
2010-03-09, 11:01 PM
Bah.

It turns out I can't get a decent single-classed Dragonfire Inspiration Paladin to work before higher levels without... shenanigans.




I guess there's always the Kobold Sorcadin...

JaronK
2010-03-09, 11:07 PM
And I think it's safe to assume that the designer intent for the material in Dragons of Eberron was *not* for it to apply to Kobolds. I find it hard to believe that any DM would allow that, unless they were intentionally trying to make the PCs massively overpowered.

Agreed entirely.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-10, 07:22 AM
:sigh:

I didn't really want to get into this argument again.

Dragonwrought Kobolds are Dragons. This is obvious.

The definition of a True Dragon in Draconomicon, the relevant primary source, is as follows:


For the most part, this book concerns itself with the ten
varieties of true dragon described in the Monster Manual—
the five chromatic dragons (black, blue, green, red, white) and
the five metallic dragons (brass, bronze, copper, gold, silver).
True dragons are those creatures that become more powerful
as they grow older.
A number of other true dragons are described in Chapter 4
of this book. In addition, Appendix 2: Index of Dragons provides
a complete list of all true dragons that have been presented in
official sources.

Because power, officially, (I'd be a fool were I to claim practically) is entirely defined by CR, ECL, and/or HD, Dragonwrought Kobolds do not fit this definition.

Now let's look at the definition of Lesser Dragons.


Other creatures of the dragon type that do not advance
through age categories are referred to as lesser dragons (which
should not be taken to mean that they are necessarily less
formidable than true dragons).
The three kinds of lesser dragon described in the Monster
Manual are the dragon turtle, the pseudodragon, and the
wyvern. Chapter 4 of this book contains a number of descriptions
of other lesser dragons, and Appendix 2 lists every lesser
dragon that has been described in a DUNGEONS & DRAGONS rulebook
or accessory.

There are two obvious interpretations of the "do not advance through age categories" clause. The one JaronK is using is the general sense, ie, that lesser dragons do not advance in age. This interpretation, however, contradicts the very appendix referenced, because there are non-immortal lesser dragons. By reductio ad absurdum, this interpretation must be wrong.

The other interpretation uses the defined D&D meaning of "advance", that is, to advance in CR through age categories. All true dragons that I know of gain CR by age category, all lesser dragons do not, supporting this interpretation.

Dragonwrought Kobolds do not gain CR as they increase in age category. Hence, they are Lesser Dragons.

You can debate RAI both ways, but the RAW, or at least RAMS, appears clear on this point.

Skaven
2010-03-10, 08:59 AM
I keep seeing people talking about how cheesy the kobold is as a race... while it really doesn't seem to be so broken to me.

The only real reason I can think of as to why one would play a Kobold Paladin is that their god hates all non-kobolds so its free RP-incentive to go kill everything in sight, but I see no mechanics-wise cheese here.

What am I missing?

Kobolds alone aren't cheesy: in fact they're very weak for an LA0 / standard race.

The cheese just comes from things like Dragonwrought + splatbooks. In fact, Dragonwrought alone and its intended in-book stuff isn't too bad either I don't think... I could be wrong though.

The Glyphstone
2010-03-10, 09:47 AM
Pretty much - the dogged insistence of people that Dragonwrought Kobolds are not True Dragons to prevent Loredrake/Wyrm of War shenanigans is like amputating a person's arm to treat a sprained wrist. All the fluff supports it, the rules support it, and it's not significantly gamebreaking.
-Kobolds are weak.
-Dragonwrought kobolds are high-optimization powerful, but not broken.
-Dragonwrought Kobolds with Epic feat access are overpowered, but not terribly so (mainly because the number of Epic feats you can actually qualify for pre-Epic is small). Should probably still be banned.
-Dragonwrought Kobolds with Sovereign Archtypes are broken, and should be banned.

hamishspence
2010-03-10, 12:58 PM
All the fluff supports it, the rules support it, and it's not significantly gamebreaking.

Aside from the iffy stuff (epic feats early, Sovereign Archetypes) just how much True-Dragon-Only stuff is there that isn't broken and is fun to play with?

magic9mushroom
2010-03-10, 04:44 PM
Pretty much - the dogged insistence of people that Dragonwrought Kobolds are not True Dragons to prevent Loredrake/Wyrm of War shenanigans is like amputating a person's arm to treat a sprained wrist. All the fluff supports it, the rules support it, and it's not significantly gamebreaking.
-Kobolds are weak.
-Dragonwrought kobolds are high-optimization powerful, but not broken.
-Dragonwrought Kobolds with Epic feat access are overpowered, but not terribly so (mainly because the number of Epic feats you can actually qualify for pre-Epic is small). Should probably still be banned.
-Dragonwrought Kobolds with Sovereign Archtypes are broken, and should be banned.

The fluff can be interpreted either way - Dragonwrought Kobolds are similar to the True Dragon form they represent, but this does not necessarily mean they are True Dragons themselves. The rules do not support it unless you read them in a way that makes a Wyvern Sorcerer also a True Dragon, as I said above. And there is very little coming from being a True Dragon specifically that is not gamebreaking.

If you disagree with my interpretation of the rules, please refute it instead of ignoring it.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-10, 04:52 PM
So a Dragonwrought Kobold wouldn't be horribly-overpowered if the DM just banned Dragons of Eberron.

Roderick, that just seems to me to be a "DERP DERP, I'M A PALADIN WHO CAN KILL OTHER GOOD CREATURES IN THE NAME OF MY DEITY SINCE I'M MORE LAWFUL THAN GOOD DERP DERP."

Right, but Kobold Paladin=Auto Ban because it opens the easiest route to Pun Pun.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-10, 04:57 PM
Right, but Kobold Paladin=Auto Ban because it opens the easiest route to Pun Pun.

Why not just ban the Sarrukh?

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-10, 04:59 PM
Why not just ban the Sarrukh?

Because it can unban itself!

Ravens_cry
2010-03-10, 05:11 PM
Kobold Paladin,eh?
Core, it would be fairly weak, though I like the idea just because I do. Cause Kobolds are just adorable (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG161b.jpg). Might make a workable Pathdfinder ranged paladin, something I want to try, as Pathfidner Smite bypasses ALL damage reduction and works on ranged.

Coplantor
2010-03-10, 05:11 PM
I keep seeing people talking about how cheesy the kobold is as a race... while it really doesn't seem to be so broken to me.

The only real reason I can think of as to why one would play a Kobold Paladin is that their god hates all non-kobolds so its free RP-incentive to go kill everything in sight, but I see no mechanics-wise cheese here.

What am I missing?

Only if you are an evil paladin variant, if the kobold becamed a paladin I hardly believe that he worships the kobold god, and in generic DnD paladins are not tied to a god, thatīs FR stuff, I think.

Bucky
2010-03-10, 05:13 PM
Right, but Kobold Paladin=Auto Ban because it opens the easiest route to Pun Pun.

If anyone were to try that in one of my games, they would just attract the attention of something extremely powerful that knows what they are attempting and does not approve. If I am feeling particularly ironic, the being in question is itself a former Kobold who has performed the same ritual and doesn't want rivals. The PC might be able to survive by fast-talking, but their cheese most certainly would not.

I encourage all DMs out there to do likewise.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-10, 05:16 PM
If anyone were to try that in one of my games, they would just attract the attention of something extremely powerful that knows what they are attempting and does not approve. If I am feeling particularly ironic, the being in question is itself a former Kobold who has performed the same ritual and doesn't want rivals. The PC might be able to survive by fast-talking, but their cheese most certainly would not.

I encourage all DMs out there to do likewise.

I do that myself. Pun-Pun was the first Kobold to figure this out, and he's now patrolling the multiverse to ensure no one else does the same thing (he's also responsible for creating the Eberron 'verse).