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View Full Version : [3.5] The Unarmed Master build challenge - no magic, no equipment



Kensen
2010-03-09, 07:01 AM
Imagine a vast, flat and featureless demiplane created for the sole purpose of unarmed one-on-one fights. The god who created the demiplane wanted the fights to be fair, so he created a permanent effect that negated all magical and psionic energies on the demiplane. He also removed all sorts of objects that could be used as weapons, and punished anyone who tried to use their clothes or food as weapons.

With these restrictions in mind, what classes and feats would you use? Details below:

Level: 10
Point-buy: 25
Equipment: None. You're considered to never have had any equipment, so you cannot qualify for prestige classes or other character options that require the use of any type of object.
Races: only PHB races, no variants of any kind are allowed.
Classes, feats and other options: You may pick base classes, prestige classes, variant class features and feats from any official book published by WotC. You suffer no multiclassing penalties; see Alignment below, however.
You may not use homebrew or third party material, 3.0 sources, anything from the Dungeon and Dragon magazines. Templates cannot be used. Character options that are in fact variant rules (such as flaws) cannot be used.
Roleplaying requirements: If a class or other character option has roleplaying requirements (such as the Fist of the Forest), you are automatically considered to fulfill the requirements.
Alignment: Pick any alignment; you're assumed to have had the same alignment all your life. Thus, you cannot have levels in classes with mutually exclusive alignment restrictions such as monk/barbarian or paladin/blackguard.
No magic: While you may take levels in classes that possess spellcasting ability, or (Su) or (Sp) abilities, you may not use or benefit from these abilities in any conceivable way. The entire demiplane is considered to be affected by a permanent antimagic & null psionics field. Even abilities that specifically state that they work in an antimagic field or null psionics field (such as a Mind Blade) do not work. Only deities and artifacts can defy the field, but that doesn't help you anyhow.

Rules clarifications and errata

One-on-one only: Even though animal companions, cohorts and other little helpers are usually (Ex) in nature, you cannot benefit from another creature or its abilities. The purpose of the fights is to test your unarmed fighting skills.

You can't talk your way out of it: The contestants are not allowed to talk (this is a new rule). The purpose of a fight is to fight, not talk! You can use the Intimidate skill, though, using your kiai/war cry, and any similar mechanics.

No beer: Alcohol is considered an object. You can take levels in Drunken Master if you fulfill the mechanical requirements, but you may not benefit from any ability that requires the use of alcohol.

The only way to modify your race is through feats and class features: If a feat gives you a tail, for example, it's ok to use that feat as long as you fulfill the prerequisites.

Only base classes and prestige classes are allowed: Racial classes or other classes that are neither base classes or prestige classes are not allowed. Racial substitution levels, however, are allowed.

Variant rules are not used unless otherwise mentioned: Campaign-wide variant rules such as fractional bab, taint, sanity, gestalt, flaws, etc. are not used otherwise mentioned. Naturally, you can use new mechanics introduced by a class or feat you use, such as maneuvers.

Psionic and exalted feats don't work: Because they're supernatural in nature.

BoED is not allowed: "True" 3.5 books only.

You can use non-lethal damage to defeat your opponent: Or ability damage, or anything that renders your opponent helpless and unable to recover from the condition within a reasonable amount of time.

Eldariel
2010-03-09, 07:03 AM
...no beer for Drunken Master? *frowntown* Also, point buy, flaws, fractional BAB/Saves?

Kensen
2010-03-09, 07:15 AM
As mentioned above, no flaws.

Point-buy: 25 (I'll add it to the first post)

Fractional saves/bab: This is a variant rule and thus it is not used. Assume that everything works as in a "vanilla" 3.5 game unless otherwise mentioned.

Beer: Hmm, good question. It's reasonable to assume that the god lets the fighters have fun every now and then, so the class is allowed, but you're not allowed to drink during a fight since you'd need a container and that's against the rules.

Flickerdart
2010-03-09, 07:27 AM
Obviously you must capture and wield a demigod in each hand.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-03-09, 07:28 AM
Unarmed Swordsage 20, or maybe Warblade 20 with a club or quarterstaff.

TheCountAlucard
2010-03-09, 07:28 AM
I take it that since this is a flat and featureless plane, there's no sun or running water?

Obviously, vampire wouldn't be eligible for this challenge (since it has 8 LA and a minimum of 5 character levels, making it a minimum ECL of 13). Oddly enough, it would lose its Damage Reduction and ability to create spawn, but it'd keep its fast healing, blood drain, and Spider Climb (though if the plain is indeed flat and featureless, Spider Climb would probably be useless). Still, most of its weaknesses would be negated, considering nobody has any equipment (nobody could stake it or use a holy symbol... but then again, it also wouldn't have a coffin...).

taltamir
2010-03-09, 07:29 AM
unarmed swordsage is your best bet.

Runestar
2010-03-09, 07:38 AM
What about abilities which mimic gear, such as warforged's armour or dragonscale husk (variant from dragon magic)?

Or creatures possessing natural flight + reach?

I would go with warblade with superior unarmed strike. Or warblade1/monk2/warblade+5/swordsage2. Bab takes a dip but without gear, everyone's AC is going to stink anyways.

Eldariel
2010-03-09, 07:39 AM
The "Only PHB races, no variants"-rule pretty much marks all the questions null and void.

Kensen
2010-03-09, 07:41 AM
There's no sun or running water, but the entire demiplane is well-lit (save for the sleeping quarters, but that's not relevant here :smallbiggrin:) and the god sees to that everyone gets enough food and water every day. But vampire is a template, so no vampires. :smallsmile:

No equipment -> no clubs or quarterstaffs. The only equipment you get is a set of simple clothes, and there are no trees to make weapons from. There are some stone buildings where the fighters rest and eat, but they're far far away from where the fights are held, so you cannot benefit from them either.

Character build level: 10 (not 20)

EDIT: No warforged characters, only PHB races. Not sure about the dragonhusk armor (I don't have the book at hand), it depends on whether it functions in an antimagic field and can be taken within the rules I outlined... :smallbiggrin:

Runestar
2010-03-09, 07:46 AM
The "Only PHB races, no variants"-rule pretty much marks all the questions null and void.

Reach can be obtained through feats/abilities (abberation limbs or that 5th lv warblade stance). Natural flight isn't so hard, quite a few templates grant it (not least the flight template from savage species).

I asked because I am not sure if templating a base race counts as making a variant or not.

Good point about the warforged.

Or what if I played a druid and use just his animal companion? Granted, the best I can get at lv10 is a cr5 animal, but they do good damage (dire lion lion can pounce, constrictor can grapple, and no normal PC can hope to beat it in grapple checks).

I take it that cohort-granting feats such as leadership are banned?

TheCountAlucard
2010-03-09, 07:50 AM
But vampire is a template, so no vampires.Well, it had already not qualified for your test; I was just pointing out its advantages/disadvantages. Rambling and whatnot, y'know?

Kensen
2010-03-09, 07:50 AM
If you can get dragonblooded by taking a feat, it's ok. The flight template cannot be used for two reasons: templates are not allowed (as mentioned in my first post) and 3.0 sources are not allowed (also mentioned).

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-09, 07:57 AM
Monk2/Psywar8 Tashalatora. Instant unarmed asskicking.

nvm, unarmed swordsage is your best bet.

Runestar
2010-03-09, 08:02 AM
Dragontouched can be had at a feat, granting the dragonblood subtype.

This paves the way for improved dragon wings, which grants a limited form of flight (the upgraded version doesn't come until lv12, so its okay). Very feat intensive though.

Alternatively, 3 lvs in favoured soul lets you get claws (1d6) and dragontouched feat for free (variant in dragon magic).

Definitely a way of breaking this.

Kensen
2010-03-09, 08:03 AM
Tinydwarfman: The usefulness of a psychic warrior in this exercise may be radically lessened by the permanent null psionics field (see first post).

Runestar: If you can get non-magical flight or reach by taking feats, it's allowed as long as you fulfill the prerequisites of the feats using only PHB races.

Eldariel
2010-03-09, 08:12 AM
On such a limited pb and no Flaws, I can't really see a good option, except:

Dwarf
16 Str (10 points)
8 Dex
20 Con (10 points + 2 level-ups)
8 Int
13 Wis (5 points)
6 Cha


1. Unarmed Swordsage 1
2. Barbarian 1
3. Unarmed Swordsage 2
4. Unarmed Swordsage 3
5. Unarmed Swordsage 4
6. Fist of the Forests 1
7. Fist of the Forests 2
8. Deepwarden 1
9. Deepwarden 2
10. Unarmed Swordsage 5

ACFs:
Whirling Frenzy Rage
Wolf Totem Barbarian
Unarmed Swordsage

Feats:
1. Great Fortitude
B. Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike
3. Power Attack
6. Endurance
9. Adaptive Style


So you have:
To Hit: 8 BAB+3 Str+1 WF = +12 (Full Attack +12/+6)
Damage: 1d10+3
HD: 8+4d12+2d10+3d8+5*10 = 58.5+50 = 108
AC: 10 + 5 Con + 5 Con + 1 Wis = 21


Maneuvers:
Sudden Leap
Emerald Razor
Flashing Sun
Mountain Hammer (prereq retrained)
Wolf Fang Strike
Moment of Perfect Mind
Action Before Thought
Zephyr Dance
Counter Charge

Stances:
Stance of Clarity
Hunter's Sense
Roots of the Mountain

Skills:
Maxed out Jump & Tumble. I guess one could max out Concentration too, and pick up prerequisites.

In reality, the AC will be quite high. With Stance of Clarity and Uncanny Dodge (and thus ability to maintain Total Defense out of combat) and availability of Rage, he'll easily have 30 AC when it counts. His AC is also his Touch AC which helps quite a bit (and Uncanny Dodge means it's also his Flat-Footed AC).

His movement speed is 40' so he's relatively fast and with Roots of the Mountain, he can counter most specialists, be they grapplers, trippers or anything else pestersome. His real attack run can go up to +10/+10/+10/+5 if he so desires. Insightful Strikes: Desert Wind gives him small bonus to damage. Emerald Razor gives tools to hit AC-maxed opponents, though that's not really relevant on an arena like this. Zephyr Dance further allows pumping AC to 34.

Of course, the sad part is that his To Hit really sucks, but there's little to be done about that without losing...well, anything worth retaining. 25pb is just really harsh with no stat enhancers and no magical boosts. That said, I think 30 AC is sufficient against most opponents and it's probably actually worthwhile to fight defensively at 27 AC most of the time. Unless fighting the mirror, of course.

Yora
2010-03-09, 08:26 AM
I would make a half-orc barbarian and optimize him for grapple. Then Rage and crush the opponent to death.

Runestar
2010-03-09, 08:30 AM
Here's my sample warblade build.

Human warblade10 (using elite array for convenience)
Hp: 10d12+20 (85 average), AC: 12, touch12, flat-footed 12 (see wall of blades).

Stats:
Str: 16, Dex:14, Con:14, Int: 12, Wis: 10, Cha: 8
Saves: Fort+9, Reflex+6, Will+3.
Skills (choose 6 to max out): Concentration+15, Tumble+15, Jump+16, rest???
Feats: improved unarmed strike, adaptive style, superior unarmed strike, snap kick, stormguard warrior, improved initiative (b), ironheart aura (b)

Attack: +11/+11 (single attack + snap kick), +13/+8 (full attack), or +11/+11/+6 (full attack + snap kick), 1d8+3

maneuvers:
5th: elder mountain hammer (+6d6 damage), disrupting blow (DC18 will save on hit, unable to act for 1 round if fail).

4th: white raven's strike (+4d6 damage, foe is flat footed), lightning recovery (reroll one attack at +2 to-hit)

3rd: insightful strike (concentration damage as damage), bonecrushor (+4d6 damage)

2nd: mountain hammer (+2d6 damage), wall of blades (use attack roll in place of AC).

1st: none (all traded out)

General tactic: move+maneuver. The key is to simply slug it out. You should have the advantage on the damage front. Wall of blades can help turn that sure-hit into a miss, adaptive style lets you swap maneuvers as appropriate, snap kick gives you 2 attacks even when moving, disrupting blow can net you 1 extra round (since melees tend to have poor will saves).

Kensen
2010-03-09, 08:31 AM
Pretty impressive build, Eldariel. How would he counter flying combatants who have reach or very mobile spring attackers?

Eldariel
2010-03-09, 08:41 AM
Pretty impressive build, Eldariel. How would he counter flying combatants who have reach or very mobile spring attackers?

Spring Attacker...well, your charge distance is 80'. Chances are nothing on the arena has over 200' movement range and since it's featureless plain, that shouldn't be a problem. Sudden Leap adds extra ~10-20' distance moved as necessary.

Against a Spring Attacker, you should have the advantage in terms of versatility. Readying action to use some manner of Strike could also be rational.

Flying combatants with reach; well, readied actions, probably. Readied action to jump and hope they provoke or something. Honestly, just assume there are no flying combatants with reach and move on. 'cause unless you have reach of your own, you aren't beating them.


Hm, something a bit more offensively efficient:
Half-Orc Warblade 6/Monk 1/Fighter 1/Warblade +2
Str 22 (16)
Dex 11 (3)
Con 14 (6)
Int 6
Wis 8
Cha 6


Feats:
1. PA
3. IBR
6. Shock Trooper
B. IUS, Improved Grapple or whatever
B. Snap Kick
9. Leap Attack

Attack bonus 9 BAB + 6 Str = +15. With Pouncing Charge, gives us full attack of:
+13/+13/+13/+7 for 1d6+6+18 each (or +17/+12)


Max out Jump and...yeah. I guess you can max out Concentration with your excess points.


Not doing maneuvers right now, Pouncing Charge, Rabid Wolf Strike, Sudden Leap, Wall of Blades and Lightning Recovery seem enough. Well, that's about it to be honest. Toss in some Diamond Mind counter, e.g. the Will-one and Roots of the Mountain and LEADING THE CHARGE and that's about it.

Lightning Recovery gives a slightly improved chance of hitting even tough-to-hit targets and having access to the usual Diamond Mind-, Stone Dragon- and Tiger Claw Strikes means your offense overall is rather respectable. Pity the To Hit has to be so low, but c'est la vie.


EDIT: Leading the Charge. +9 damage... Yeah, prolly worth it.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-03-09, 08:48 AM
Human, Unarmed Swordsage 5/ Bear Totem Barbarian (Whirling Frenzy) 5 or something like that, get Jotunbrud, Aberration Blood: Flexible Limbs, Inhuman Reach, Deepspawn, and Starspawn. Be sure to get Crushing Weight of the Mountain. That gets 10 ft. natural reach, limited flight, and an obscene grapple modifier with Constrict, as follows:

+8 BAB
+4 Improved Grapple
+4 Size (Jotunbrud)
+2 Flexible Limbs
+2 Deepspawn
+4 Bear Totem 5 when raging
+6 Strength (16 base, +2 levels, +4 Whirling Frenzy)
= +30 Grapple modifier, gg

Eldariel
2010-03-09, 09:07 AM
Races of Faerun is 3.0. Also, with Roots of the Mountain legal, single-handed Grapple-focus might be a bad idea. Though Starspawn + Aberrant Reach is pretty sick, even if it's only 4 turns. Of course, savvy opp can simply run for those 4 turns before you drop and then hit; Starspawn's lack of speed is appalling.

Macrovore
2010-03-09, 11:20 AM
Has anyone discussed using Vow of Poverty? I think most, if not all, of those abilities are (ex). I know it kind of defeats the entire purpose of the exercise, but it's still technically within the parameters of the challenge. So, I propose to you:
Human Monk 1/swordsage 9, with vow of poverty. The monk level is to get better unarmed strikes and feats right off the bat. Depending on the feat load-out, you might be able to qualify for master of nine, but probably not (the feat requirements for that are annoying. even the sample npc doesn't even technically qualify).

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-09, 12:48 PM
Has anyone discussed using Vow of Poverty? I think most, if not all, of those abilities are (ex). I know it kind of defeats the entire purpose of the exercise, but it's still technically within the parameters of the challenge. So, I propose to you:
Human Monk 1/swordsage 9, with vow of poverty. The monk level is to get better unarmed strikes and feats right off the bat. Depending on the feat load-out, you might be able to qualify for master of nine, but probably not (the feat requirements for that are annoying. even the sample npc doesn't even technically qualify).

There's no reson not to take monk 2 of you take monk 1. more bab, IL, and a free feat I think VoP was assumed banned, 'cos if it weren't it would be taken by everyone.

Kensen
2010-03-09, 01:59 PM
Vow of Poverty is not banned. It appears in an official 3.5 book and it's prerequisites do not seem to violate the rules I have outlined. However, many of the benefits the feat grants are supernatural in nature and thus don't work on the demiplane.

AC Bonus - doesn't work
Bonus Exalted Feats - you get them, but you don't get any benefit from as they are supernatural in nature
Endure Elements - works but is useless since the demiplane is comfortably warm anyway
Exalted Strike - doesn't work
Sustenance - works but is useless since you get enough food anyway
Resistance - you get a +1 bonus on all saves, pretty good if your opponent has maneuvers that involve saves or something like that
Ability Score Enhancement - you get +2 on one ability, pretty good
Natural Armor - you get +1 on AC, quite good
Mind Shielding - it works but is largely useless
Damage Reduction - doesn't work

So basically for two of your precious feats, you get +1 on saves, +2 on one ability score, and +1 on AC. Very good, but not a no-brainer.

EDIT: Well, actually the book says that all exalted feats are supernatural... so I suppose VoP doesn't function within an antimagic field even though some of the benefits it grants are (Ex). Not sure though...

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-09, 02:05 PM
I would have said Warforged (from Eberron), but PHB only kinda kicks me in the groin. Because "technically" a Warforged Monk can have "fullplate" and not suffer for wearing armor ;3

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-09, 02:10 PM
In any event a monk still dominates this as their abilities for the most part are not super natural.


I would have said Warforged (from Eberron), but PHB only kinda kicks me in the groin. Because "technically" a Warforged Monk can have "fullplate" and not suffer for wearing armor ;3

Umm no,


Is a warforged considered to be wearing armor for the
purpose of using special abilities, such as a monk’s fast
movement?
The composite plating of a typical warforged doesn’t count
as armor. Certain warforged feats, such as Adamantine Body
(EBERRON Campaign Setting, page 50) specifically state that the
character is considered to be wearing armor, and thus would
limit use of such abilities.

2xMachina
2010-03-09, 02:11 PM
Slight tangent, but would a VoP warforged (adamantine body) work? Still not belongings right? Or being outfitted with components/grafts.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-09, 02:17 PM
AFB, so I didn't realise that...

Plus I dunno on the Warforged "upgrades" so I'm not the expert on that Ye Grande Olde Can 'O Wyrms

Telonius
2010-03-09, 02:20 PM
Druid7/Rogue3
Animal companion is (Ex).
Druid's Special animal companion: Tiger.

Strategy: Tiger pounces, grapples. Druid advances and uses Rogue levels to Sneak Attack the target (which is denied Dex due to Grapple).

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-09, 02:26 PM
Druid7/Rogue3
Animal companion is (Ex).
Druid's Special animal companion: Tiger.

Strategy: Tiger pounces, grapples. Druid advances and uses Rogue levels to Sneak Attack the target (which is denied Dex due to Grapple).

or Monk 3/Druid 7

Companion: Tiger

Wildshape into a tiger and go Kung-Fu on their sorry keister

Eldariel
2010-03-09, 02:32 PM
In any event a monk still dominates this as their abilities for the most part are not super natural.

Lol, what? Make a quick scan through the thread, see how many of the builds suggested a Monk could beat. Eh, actually, just stat up a 25pb Monk and cringe.



or Monk 3/Druid 7

Companion: Tiger

Wildshape into a tiger and go Kung-Fu on their sorry keister

Wildshape is Supernatural.

Kensen
2010-03-09, 02:37 PM
On a demiplane devoid of plant and animal life it would be impossible to find an animal companion not to mention that the god who created the demiplane for the sole purpose of staging one-on-one unarmed fights might consider it cheating if your tiger helped you. :smallsmile:

The same applies to cohorts. While a cohort is technically the product of a feat, it would be hard to explain it to the god why you're allowed to bring your sidekick to the fight but the next guy is not.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, finding an animal companion might be considered to fall within the clause "roleplaying requirements are automatically fulfilled", and I didn't mention the demiplane was devoid of animal life (though it was strongly implied), but having a sidekick means it's no longer a 1-on-1 fight, so animal companions and cohorts are not allowed to help you anyhow, though they are welcome as spectators. :smallbiggrin:

Indon
2010-03-09, 03:02 PM
Hmm. It's possible to get a feint down to a swift action, right? An unarmed Rogue might have a chance here.

Edit: Also, the Marshal! All their abilities are Ex.

Maybe you could take Leadership and have a Marshal cohort. He's just cheering for you really well.

Flickerdart
2010-03-09, 03:02 PM
Human, Unarmed Swordsage 5/ Bear Totem Barbarian (Whirling Frenzy) 5 or something like that, get Jotunbrud, Aberration Blood: Flexible Limbs, Inhuman Reach, Deepspawn, and Starspawn. Be sure to get Crushing Weight of the Mountain. That gets 10 ft. natural reach, limited flight, and an obscene grapple modifier with Constrict, as follows:

+8 BAB
+4 Improved Grapple
+4 Size (Jotunbrud)
+2 Flexible Limbs
+2 Deepspawn
+4 Bear Totem 5 when raging
+6 Strength (16 base, +2 levels, +4 Whirling Frenzy)
= +30 Grapple modifier, gg
Unless you really need that 5th level of Swordsage, going Swordsage 4/Barbarian 6 nets you an extra point of BAB (4 3/4 and 6 1/1 for +9).

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-09, 03:06 PM
For Simplicity's sake:

Monk 5/Initiate of Draconic Mysteries 5/Fist of the Forest 5/Acolyte of the Fist 10

Draz74
2010-03-09, 03:08 PM
I think it's pretty obvious that Tome of Battle should be prominent in this contest. I'm just torn about whether I would go with a ToB Grapple specialist, or a Setting Sun-heavy thrower/tripper, or just try to kill people by punching them really hard.

I'm tempted to try out a variant on some of my favorite Master of Nine builds (warblade-heavy, with dips in other useful classes and a fair amount of Setting Sun), but 25-PB and feat starvation make it difficult.

Yeah, I think I would end up going for

Human Swordsage 6 / Barbarian 2 / Warblade 2
(Swordsage: Unarmed variant)
(Barbarian: Lion Spirit Totem, Wolf Totem, Whirling Frenzy variants)

Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 8
Key Feats: Snap Kick, Adaptive Style, Combat Reflexes
Key Stances: Shifting Defense, Leading the Charge

An interesting question: with the featureless terrain and the lack of magic, is stealth doomed here? Should my build even bother with Hide/Move Silently ranks? And if there is a way to make Stealth work, does that mean some kind of access to Scent or Blindsense is pretty much required?

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-03-09, 03:08 PM
Take Leadership for a Bard Cohort who uses IC + DFI. He's not fighting... honest :smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2010-03-09, 03:08 PM
For Simplicity's sake:

Monk 5/Initiate of Draconic Mysteries 5/Fist of the Forest 5/Acolyte of the Fist 10

FotF is a 3-level class and you have about 15 levels more than the challenge allowed?

Gametime
2010-03-09, 03:52 PM
Hm...I feel like Intimidate cheese should be possible here, but I can't figure out the best way to do it. You can't get move action intimidates from Samurai (too high level) or the armor enchantment, and all the free action ways I can find (mostly involving rage) only seem to work once per encounter.

AtwasAwamps
2010-03-09, 04:05 PM
Hm...I feel like Intimidate cheese should be possible here, but I can't figure out the best way to do it. You can't get move action intimidates from Samurai (too high level) or the armor enchantment, and all the free action ways I can find (mostly involving rage) only seem to work once per encounter.

Zhentarim Fighter should be able to do it. But that means ALL of your levels sans 1 are fighter, as I think it gets it at level 9...

Telonius
2010-03-09, 04:49 PM
Possibly Monk1/Knight5/ReapingMauler4? Monk2/Fighter4/RM4, with Weakening Touch and Intuitive Attack as Fighter Feats?

Nidogg
2010-03-09, 04:53 PM
Maybe Monk5/fighter5? And go for grappling optimization with fighter feats and stunning with monk feats. So disabling foes 1 by 1 and using them as rudimentary sheilds i.e someone cant facepunch you if someone elses face gets in the way....

Gametime
2010-03-09, 05:28 PM
Zhentarim Fighter should be able to do it. But that means ALL of your levels sans 1 are fighter, as I think it gets it at level 9...

Ah, yes, that'll do it. A Half-Orc fighter 9/monk 1 with the Overwhelming Attack monk variant, plus Persuasive, Menacing Demeanor, Skill Focus, and Imperious Command should be able to lock down any one-on-one combatant.

From there, just take your time punching them to death.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-03-09, 05:30 PM
Ah, yes, that'll do it. A Half-Orc fighter 9/monk 1 with the Overwhelming Attack monk variant, plus Persuasive, Menacing Demeanor, Skill Focus, and Imperious Command should be able to lock down any one-on-one combatant.

From there, just take your time punching them to death.

Don't forget Never Outnumbered skill trick and INA for more damage output

Draz74
2010-03-09, 05:53 PM
Ah, yes, that'll do it. A Half-Orc fighter 9/monk 1 with the Overwhelming Attack monk variant, plus Persuasive, Menacing Demeanor, Skill Focus, and Imperious Command should be able to lock down any one-on-one combatant.

From there, just take your time punching them to death.

Hmmm, I was actually thinking of Zhentarim Fighter 9 with a dip in Crusader or Barbarian. You'll have to actually take Improved Unarmed Strike and maybe Snap Kick as feats :smallyuk:, but hey, you're a Fighter, you have Feats to spare. At the very least, this build should probably use Unarmed Swordsage rather than Monk.

On the other hand, I was actually thinking that a classic Human, Wis/Dex-focused Monk could actually be almost viable in this setting:

Your crappy AC is normal
Your nonmagical weapons are normal
Nothing is super resistant to Stunning Fist
You have two important advantages over the Swordsage: 10 uses of Stunning Fist/day, and no DM can argue about whether your Wis-to-AC bonus requires Light Armor to function. :smallamused:

Gametime
2010-03-09, 06:09 PM
Hmmm, I was actually thinking of Zhentarim Fighter 9 with a dip in Crusader or Barbarian. You'll have to actually take Improved Unarmed Strike and maybe Snap Kick as feats :smallyuk:, but hey, you're a Fighter, you have Feats to spare. At the very least, this build should probably use Unarmed Swordsage rather than Monk.



The level in monk was purely for the +2 bonus to Intimidate. If your check is high enough, it doesn't matter how poor your fighting skills; eventually, you'll win. :smallamused:

If this was a level 11 challenge, a level of Exemplar would reduce the need for a lot of the intimidate boosting by allowing us to take 10, but as-is you need a check of +30 to guarantee success against someone with no wisdom bonus.

I was quite annoyed to discover that Snap Kick and Superior Unarmed Strike don't appear to be available as fighter bonus feats, however. Most of your normal feat options are tied up in Intimidate; likely as not, you'll end up just taking Weapon Focus/Specialization.

And just whose idea was it that fighters can't take freakin' Improved Initiative as a bonus feat, anyway?

Kensen
2010-03-09, 06:11 PM
An interesting question: with the featureless terrain and the lack of magic, is stealth doomed here? Should my build even bother with Hide/Move Silently ranks? And if there is a way to make Stealth work, does that mean some kind of access to Scent or Blindsense is pretty much required?

There's absolutely nothing to hide behind, but if you have concealment, you should be able to use Hide. There are some feats that can accomplish that, perhaps some maneuvers too. *shrugs* I'm not a Hide expert, but if you're somehow able to create suitable conditions for Hiding without cover, yes you can use stealth. :smallsmile:

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-09, 06:12 PM
Hmmm, I was actually thinking of Zhentarim Fighter 9 with a dip in Crusader or Barbarian. You'll have to actually take Improved Unarmed Strike and maybe Snap Kick as feats :smallyuk:, but hey, you're a Fighter, you have Feats to spare. At the very least, this build should probably use Unarmed Swordsage rather than Monk.

On the other hand, I was actually thinking that a classic Human, Wis/Dex-focused Monk could actually be almost viable in this setting:

Your crappy AC is normal
Your nonmagical weapons are normal
Nothing is super resistant to Stunning Fist
You have two important advantages over the Swordsage: 10 uses of Stunning Fist/day, and no DM can argue about whether your Wis-to-AC bonus requires Light Armor to function. :smallamused:


I'd still take one or two levels of swordsage - you trade nothing for 3rd level maneuvers, or 4th if you just take the monk to 6th level.

Draz74
2010-03-09, 08:12 PM
The level in monk was purely for the +2 bonus to Intimidate. If your check is high enough, it doesn't matter how poor your fighting skills; eventually, you'll win. :smallamused:
Ah, that makes sense.

It's also nice that it makes Improved Unarmed Strike unnecessary. Because no matter how much you Intimidate them, if you have no way of dealing lethal damage, you won't be able to kill anything.


And just whose idea was it that fighters can't take freakin' Improved Initiative as a bonus feat, anyway?

Odd. The SRD lists it as a Fighter Bonus Feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#fighterBonusFeats), but it certainly doesn't have the "Special: " line in it. Which one wins in this case?


I'd still take one or two levels of swordsage - you trade nothing for 3rd level maneuvers, or 4th if you just take the monk to 6th level.

Yeah, I was thinking that too. You do lose a use or two of Stunning Fist per day, but ... meh, it's worth it for some maneuvers.

Oh, I also noticed that my build earlier actually didn't have high enough Initiator Level to take Shifting Defense. :smallfrown: Barring Imperious Command and similar shenanigans, Shifting Defense and Combat Reflexes is a very powerful combo in this type of contest. So that's an argument in favor of just Swordsage 9 / Barbarian 1 or somesuch.

TheCountAlucard
2010-03-09, 08:24 PM
Because no matter how much you Intimidate them, if you have no way of dealing lethal damage, you won't be able to kill anything.Just take a -4 penalty on the attack roll, and you'll do fine. :smalltongue:

Draz74
2010-03-09, 08:30 PM
Just take a -4 penalty on the attack roll, and you'll do fine. :smalltongue:

Oh yeah, duh. :smallredface:

Gametime
2010-03-09, 09:26 PM
Yeah, I was thinking that too. You do lose a use or two of Stunning Fist per day, but ... meh, it's worth it for some maneuvers.

Oh, I also noticed that my build earlier actually didn't have high enough Initiator Level to take Shifting Defense. :smallfrown: Barring Imperious Command and similar shenanigans, Shifting Defense and Combat Reflexes is a very powerful combo in this type of contest. So that's an argument in favor of just Swordsage 9 / Barbarian 1 or somesuch.

...Is the step from Shifting Defense resolved before the attack is? The wording is a little unclear. If so, that's crazy-go-nuts good.

Kensen
2010-03-10, 04:29 AM
About non-lethal damage: In this challenge, non-lethal damage is just as good as lethal damage. The point is not to kill the opponent, just to defeat him. Killing is not forbidden, but it's not a requirement either.

Hmm I wonder if it would be possible to make a super-mobile spring attacker build without using ToB (just to show that you can be effective without ToB). If you're fast enough, it'll be difficult for the opponent to retaliate. Brb 1 / Ftr 4 / Sct 3 / FoF 1 / Forest Reeve 1 would give you a land speed of 70, bab +9, 1d8 unarmed attack damage die, rage and 1d6 skirmish, but it's pretty feat intensive. :smalleek:

H Power Attack
1 Great Fortitude
F1 Dodge
F2 Mobility
F4 Spring Attack
3 Improved Unarmed Attack
6 Track
9 Endurance

maxed out skill: tumble

Oh well, not very impressive. Let's try something else...

6 levels of Cobra Strike monk give you Spring Attack, +20 speed and 1d8 unarmed attack damage die plus other minor benefits. You'll have more feats but worse bab and no skirmish. Maybe Rgr 1 / Mnk 6 / FoF 1 / Forest Reeve 1 / ??? 1

H Fleet of Foot (the Faerun one)
1 Great Fortitude
R1 Track
3 Power Attack
M1, 2, 6 Imp Unarmed Attack, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack
6: Endurance
9: ??? (Maybe a feat that works against charging opponents?)

Speed 80, 1d10 unarmed damage, +2 favored enemy (human?), ...

Tactics: Slow opponents (speed<=30') never get a chance to retaliate, and fast opponents (speed=>40') can only use charge to attack, denying them of most of their options (unless they're also very fast). If you take a level of Fighter and get Combat Reflexes + Hold the Line, you get two attacks per round while your opponent never gets more than one attack. Your bab and damage will suck, but your AC is slightly better than average (+1 from Monk, +2 from Dodge, Wis, Dex & Con to AC).

Wings of Peace
2010-03-10, 04:54 AM
Swordsage 3/Cleric 1/Major Bloodline 3/Ruby Knight Vindicator 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Shadow Sun Ninja 1/
Race: Human

Initiator Level: 18

Taint Score: Severe

Feats:

1. Magical Training, Precocious Apprentice

3. Adaptive Style

6. Improved Unarmed Strike

9. X

Taint Feats:

-Martial Stance: Devoted Spirit (Stance)

-Martial Study: Devoted Spirit (Maneuver)

Strategy: Victory through high level maneuvers.

Kensen
2010-03-10, 09:50 AM
Swordsage 3/Cleric 1/Major Bloodline 3/Ruby Knight Vindicator 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Shadow Sun Ninja 1/
Race: Human

Initiator Level: 18

Taint Score: Severe

Feats:

1. Magical Training, Precocious Apprentice

3. Adaptive Style

6. Improved Unarmed Strike

9. X

Taint Feats:

-Martial Stance: Devoted Spirit (Stance)

-Martial Study: Devoted Spirit (Maneuver)

Strategy: Victory through high level maneuvers.

Bloodlines are racial variants and thus cannot be used. (As mentioned in the first post, only PHB races, no variants).

Taint is a variant campaign option, much like sanity, gestalt, flaws or bell curve rolls; no such variant rules can be used. (As mentioned in the first post, you may pick base classes, prestige classes, variant class features and feats from 3.5 WotC books. It wasn't mentioned, but racial substitution levels are also ok because they are also variant class features. Other options are not available.)

Also, if precocious apprentice was used to fulfill the prereq of a PrC that requires the ability to cast 2nd spells or something like that, I'm not quite sure if it really works... but I'm not familiar with the PrCs so I may be wrong.

Draz74
2010-03-10, 11:44 AM
...Is the step from Shifting Defense resolved before the attack is? The wording is a little unclear. If so, that's crazy-go-nuts good.

No, it's after the attack.

However, since practically every combatant in this contest will have at least Snap Kick, getting to step away from your opponent after he hits you once means you're cutting down his damage output at least in half. More so if he would have pulled off a full attack otherwise.


Hmm I wonder if it would be possible to make a super-mobile spring attacker build without using ToB (just to show that you can be effective without ToB). If you're fast enough, it'll be difficult for the opponent to retaliate.

Ironically, this might lead to dipping 1 level in Psychic Warrior despite the whole "can't manifest any powers" thing. Because I don't think there's anything magical about holding a psionic focus, nor about psionic feats. So a PsyWar level makes you psionic, so that you can take psionic feats; and it also gives you a bonus feat, which can be used for Speed of Thought. +10 speed that stacks with all the others you were working towards.

Kalirren
2010-03-10, 12:07 PM
Hm. Fey heritage feats for the 9 DR/cold iron, Vow of Poverty for the extra exalted feats is one idea. The low point buy and lack of magical equipment means that strategies are really constrained.

Hammer Fist + Power Attack might also be viable.

Draz74
2010-03-10, 12:12 PM
Where's Hammer Fist from?

Kalirren
2010-03-10, 12:15 PM
Oh darn it, it's from Races of Faerun. I forget if that's 3.0 or 3.5. I thought they'd reprinted it in Complete Warrior or something, but I guess not.

Oh, and BoED is effectively 3.25 anyway, so I guess that's out too.

Still, 9 DR/cold iron is nothing to scoff at.

Soranar
2010-03-10, 01:15 PM
even without hammerfist, a dwarf is probably your best bet

STATS (25 pts buy)

Str 15 (+1 at 8)
Dex 8
Con 19 (+1 at 4)
Int 12 (necessary to meet the skill requirements)
Wis 8
Cha 6

BAB: 10 (maximum possible)
AC: 10 (base) + 5 Dex (use Con instead) + 5 Con (Fist of the Forest)=20

hitpoints: (d12 +5) x 7 + (d10+5) x 3= average 107

1 Barbarian (lion totem) power attack
2 Fighter great fortitude
3 Fighter improved unarmed strike, weapon focus unarmed strike
4 Fighter
5 Fighter weapon specialization: unarmed strike
6 Fist of the Forest endurance
7 Fist of the Forest
8 Fist of the Forest
9 Deepwarden bludgeoning weapon mastery
10 Deepwarden

1 level Barbarian, for rage (effectively gives +2 to AC from the Con bonus -AC malus) , skills (to meet the prestige class requirements) and pounce (via lion totem)

4 levels of fighter (dwarven substitution levels, you get d12 hitpoints instead and use the level 8 substitution so you don't lose a feat and you need knowledge dungeoneer)

2 Deepwarden for Con to replace Dex as AC

3 Fist of the forest for Con as a bonus to AC like a monk's Wis, uncanny dodge and unarmed damage (1d10)

rage is an ex ability, the trance is sup so you can't use it, you get run from barbarian and fast movement from fist of the forest so you should be able to catch anything

probably the best I can think of in only 10 levels

Indon
2010-03-10, 01:20 PM
The Kensai self-enhancement ability is Su, right?

Kensen
2010-03-10, 01:26 PM
Ironically, this might lead to dipping 1 level in Psychic Warrior despite the whole "can't manifest any powers" thing. Because I don't think there's anything magical about holding a psionic focus, nor about psionic feats. So a PsyWar level makes you psionic, so that you can take psionic feats; and it also gives you a bonus feat, which can be used for Speed of Thought. +10 speed that stacks with all the others you were working towards.

I did think about it too. I thought that the feat probably doesn't work in a null psionics field because it's a [psionic] feat. Not sure though... If it does work, that's an easy +10. :smallbiggrin:

Reach would also be amazing: more AoO's (two per round vs charging opponents if you have Hold the Line) and it would also be worth 10 feet of movement because you'd have to use two squares less to get within reach and moving away after the attack.

Sir Giacomo
2010-03-10, 03:52 PM
On the other hand, I was actually thinking that a classic Human, Wis/Dex-focused Monk could actually be almost viable in this setting:

Your crappy AC is normal
Your nonmagical weapons are normal
Nothing is super resistant to Stunning Fist
You have two important advantages over the Swordsage: 10 uses of Stunning Fist/day, and no DM can argue about whether your Wis-to-AC bonus requires Light Armor to function. :smallamused:


You are correct, I guess the following build would be quite tough:

8th level human monk, 2nd level fighter 25pt buy

STR 10, DEX 13, CON 8, INT 10, WIS 18 (16 start, 2 stat gains), CHR 8

Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Improved initiative, Ability Focus-Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, Intuitive attack, Improved Trip, Snap Kick, Rapid Stunning, improved natural attack, weapon focus- unarmed strike.

Add in Decisive Strike Alternative Class Feature.

Result: 4 rounds/day this unarmed melee build could do 2 stunning fist attacks/round with DC 22 on top of 4d8 damage/hit.
The typical Dwarf full BAB contestant will have a fort save of just +10, though.

- Giacomo

Soranar
2010-03-10, 10:22 PM
You are correct, I guess the following build would be quite tough:

8th level human monk, 2nd level fighter 25pt buy

STR 10, DEX 13, CON 8, INT 10, WIS 18 (16 start, 2 stat gains), CHR 8

Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Improved initiative, Ability Focus-Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, Intuitive attack, Improved Trip, Snap Kick, Rapid Stunning, improved natural attack, weapon focus- unarmed strike.

Add in Decisive Strike Alternative Class Feature.

Result: 4 rounds/day this unarmed melee build could do 2 stunning fist attacks/round with DC 22 on top of 4d8 damage/hit.
The typical Dwarf full BAB contestant will have a fort save of just +10, though.

- Giacomo

Trying to understand your build, but some things don't add up.

Assuming this would be it (although you might start fighter for more hp)

1 Monk stunning fists, improved initiative,ability focus: stunning fists
2 Monk combat reflexes
3 Monk intuitive attack
4 Monk
5 Monk
6 Monk improved trip, snap kick
7 Monk
8 Monk
9 Fighter rapid stunning, improved natural attack
10 Fighter weapon focus unarmed strike

So this is your build, I'm guessing you're using snap kick to do an extra attack while using decisive strike.

Normal monk damage is 1d10 at level 8 + 4 levels from improved natural attack = 2d6 (not 2d8)

Non static damage doesn't double but maybe you hope to land 2 blows so 4d6 damage. No bonus from str.

Your AC is 16 (+1 Dex, +4 Wis, +1 monk, +10 base)

My to hit = 16 = 10 (base)+ 3 (competence) + 3 (Str) so I hit 19/20

My AC is 20 (+ 5 Dex , replaced by Con, +5 Con) , +2 while raging so maybe 22

your to hit = 10 =8 (base) + 1 (competence) + 4 (wisdom) -2 (snap kick) -1 decisive strike

so assuming I'm not raging you land a blow 10/20, you manage to stun me you hit 19/20

My fort Save is either +14 (7 base + 5 from Con +2 great Fort) or +19 depending on whether you fraction the saves or not (every class I have have high Fort saves)

DC 22 (10 + 5 from level + 4 from Wis + 3 from focus)

at +14 I succeed roughly 60% of the time, you land a blow 50% of the time (unless you catch me flatfooted, since you're probably going to win ini it's likely)

so let's say you get lucky and stun me 4 turns in a row (spending all 8 stunning fists you have to do so)

you also land every blow

4d6 damage x 4= 84 damage on average, I'm probably not dead, definitely not if I'm raging

you have 8d8 + 2d10 hitpoints= 42 on average -10 from Con so 32 (probably more since level 1 is full HP but I forgot while doing my count too)

I hit for 1d10+4 (competence)+3 (str) = average 12 damage per attack (+2 if raging) , my second iterative over 50% of the time so let's just add 6 damage on average

18 damage per round , so if I manage to hit you for 2 rounds you're dead. If I'm raging and I hit you with both attacks in 1 round (28 average damage) and get a bit lucky I might just kill you in 1.

All things considered it can really go either way but you need to have reliable luck while I just need 1 good round.

The Shadowmind
2010-03-10, 10:28 PM
Oh darn it, it's from Races of Faerun. I forget if that's 3.0 or 3.5. I thought they'd reprinted it in Complete Warrior or something, but I guess not.

Oh, and BoED is effectively 3.25 anyway, so I guess that's out too.

Still, 9 DR/cold iron is nothing to scoff at.
Fey heritage got reprinted in Complete Arcane.

Pechvarry
2010-03-10, 11:34 PM
Non static damage doesn't double but maybe you hope to land 2 blows so 4d6 damage. No bonus from str.

I don't think that's right. A lance deals double damage on a charge. Not "double static damage bonuses". The DMG specifically discusses that all damage, not just weapon damage, should be multiplied to keep
a critical hit relevant at high levels. These precedents (and D&D's even having rules on stacking multipliers such as a critical hit with a charging lance) should certainly carry over to any other attack mentioned to deal "double damage" such as Decisive Strike.

Non static damage not getting multiplied comes from outside sources -- flaming property, sneak attack, etc.

Soranar
2010-03-10, 11:41 PM
I don't think that's right. A lance deals double damage on a charge. Not "double static damage bonuses". The DMG specifically discusses that all damage, not just weapon damage, should be multiplied to keep
a critical hit relevant at high levels. These precedents (and D&D's even having rules on stacking multipliers such as a critical hit with a charging lance) should certainly carry over to any other attack mentioned to deal "double damage" such as Decisive Strike.

Non static damage not getting multiplied comes from outside sources -- flaming property, sneak attack, etc.

Yeah I think you're right, I just reread the SRD about it. Changes everything and makes both builds roughly equal (depending on how you calculate saving throws)

tyckspoon
2010-03-11, 12:25 AM
T
Normal monk damage is 1d10 at level 8 + 4 levels from improved natural attack = 2d6 (not 2d8)


Improved Natural Attack doesn't grant extra effective Monk levels, it makes you count as 1 size larger. 1d10 Unarmed Strike bumps up to 2d8 for a pseudo-Large Monk. You may have been thinking of Superior Unarmed Strike from Tome of Battle, which does increase Monk level for purposes of Unarmed Strike (and probably would be worth swapping in for Weapon Focus, if possible- I don't recall whether or not it's a Fighter Bonus Feat.)

deuxhero
2010-03-11, 12:43 AM
The "Only PHB races, no variants"-rule pretty much marks all the questions null and void.

The husk is an ACF you trade armor proficiency for.


Hmm. Would it be possible to get a diplmoancer under these conditions...

Akal Saris
2010-03-11, 12:52 AM
I don't think that's right. A lance deals double damage on a charge. Not "double static damage bonuses". The DMG specifically discusses that all damage, not just weapon damage, should be multiplied to keep
a critical hit relevant at high levels. These precedents (and D&D's even having rules on stacking multipliers such as a critical hit with a charging lance) should certainly carry over to any other attack mentioned to deal "double damage" such as Decisive Strike.

Non static damage not getting multiplied comes from outside sources -- flaming property, sneak attack, etc.

This confused the heck out of me when I started playing 2E again, since in 2E double damage (backstab, dwarven throwers, mounted charge with a lance) apparently increases only the weapon damage rather than other modifiers.

dspeyer
2010-03-11, 12:58 AM
Human
Dragon-totem barbarian 1 / fighter 2 / unarmed swordsage 2 / crusader 2 / frenzied berserker 1 / crusader 1 / master of nine 1
Feats: improved initiative, power attack, blindfight (b), dodge (b), cleave (b), destructive rage, improved unarmed strike (b), intimidating rage, adaptive style

Use swordsage for prerequisites (both for MoN and future maneuvers). Then advance crusader with MoN. You get three 4th level maneuvers and three lesser maneuvers with passive refresh. Add rage, frenzy and wis to ac.

Kensen
2010-03-11, 01:54 AM
Hmm. Would it be possible to get a diplmoancer under these conditions...

Sure, why not. Skill ranks (+13), Cha 20 (+5), decent Int to get the synergy bonuses (+6) and any prereq skills, a Marshal dip (+5), skill focus (+3), negotiator (+2), half-elf (+2) etc. can get you a +36 bonus without even breaking a sweat. I'm sure it's possible to crank it up to +50 or more without using magic or equipment if you know the right feats and classes.

But that's just the mechanical side of it.

As I've noted before, some class features (while mechanically acceptable) cannot really be used because of the context in which the fights take place. In this scenario, if you make your opponent "helpful", his response might be the following:

"I am honored to fight you. I will do my very best to defeat you so that you can prove your worth in the eyes of our god."

Moreover, if your opponent is another PC, diplomacy doesn't work.

As an aside, the "bitch them out and then bitch-slap them" technique (i.e. Intimidate + nonlethal unarmed damage that was discussed above :smallbiggrin:) can be used since the effect is a condition, not a vague rp effect.

Draz74
2010-03-11, 02:19 AM
As I've noted before, some class features (while mechanically acceptable) cannot really be used because of the context in which the fights take place. In this scenario, if you make your opponent "helpful", his response might be the following:

"I am honored to fight you. I will do my very best to defeat you so that you can prove your worth in the eyes of our god."

I'm not going to judge how accurate your interpretation of RAW is or isn't, but I can provide some helpfully demonstrative quotes.


"I would sooner destroy a stained-glass window as an artist like yourself. However, since I can't have you following me, either ..."


"I do not envy you the headache you will have when you awake, but in the meantime, sleep well, and dream of large women."

Kensen
2010-03-11, 03:13 AM
I'm not going to judge how accurate your interpretation of RAW is or isn't, but I can provide some helpfully demonstrative quotes.

Regardless of my interpretation of RAW, it would be a bad idea to tell your opponent not to fight properly or at all when your god is watching. This falls within the same category as the pet tiger: good idea, but doesn't work if your DM (playing the god) is awake. :smallbiggrin:

"Can't we all just be friends and quit fighting?" [rolls Diplomacy to influence the attitude of the god]

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-11, 11:19 AM
In Races of Stone, there's a feat that, for Dwarf, Gnome, or Goliath, allows them to strike a foe with both hands. eh? eh?

Pechvarry
2010-03-11, 05:50 PM
Soulknife can technically manifest his blade in anti-magic/null-psionics field. >.>

Just needs to be able to make a Will save DC 20. (Pretty sure he'd still get owned by most of the face-smashing builds presented here)

Kensen
2010-03-12, 03:07 AM
Nope, even the soulknife's mind blade doesn't work as mentioned in the first post. The god has prevented the use of any and all magical and psionic abilities save for artifacts and deities' powers.

Anyway, would anyone be sufficiently interested in playing in a PvP tournament using the rules outlined in this thread? It'd be fun to find out which build would win. Of course, there's a lot of luck involved, but luck is always a factor in D&D.

Kensen
2010-03-12, 05:13 AM
Ironically, this might lead to dipping 1 level in Psychic Warrior despite the whole "can't manifest any powers" thing. Because I don't think there's anything magical about holding a psionic focus, nor about psionic feats. So a PsyWar level makes you psionic, so that you can take psionic feats; and it also gives you a bonus feat, which can be used for Speed of Thought. +10 speed that stacks with all the others you were working towards.

Looks like it doesn't work:

SRD: "Because psionic feats are supernatural abilities—a departure from the general rule that feats do not grant supernatural abilities—they cannot be disrupted in combat (as powers can be) and generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity (except as noted in their descriptions). Supernatural abilities are not subject to power resistance and cannot be dispelled; however, they do not function in areas where psionics is suppressed, such as a null psionics field. Leaving such an area immediately allows psionic feats to be used."

This probably also means that Vow of Poverty doesn't function in an antimagic/null psionics field because the book says the exalted feats are supernatural in nature. So, it looks like you don't get even the Ex abilities. :smallconfused:

AbyssKnight
2010-03-12, 09:30 AM
I think a dip of PsiWarrior could still be handy to qualify for Warmind. The Chain of Personal Superiority, Chain of Defensive Posture, and DR X/- are all Ex abilities.

Kensen
2010-03-12, 09:37 AM
True, and an extra feat never hurts. The loss of bab is unfortunate, though.

Soranar
2010-03-12, 11:56 AM
Dragon Warrior

Race: human
Alignment: any chaotic

STATS

Str 18 (+4 from Dragon Disciple)
Dex 14
Con 18 (+2 from levels)
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 11 (required for heritage + Dragon disciple requirements)

1 Battle Sorcerer Draconic Heritage, Dragon Tail
2 Fighter (Dragon husk ACF) Dodge
3 Barbarian (lion totem, whirling frenzy) Draconic aura: toughness
4 Fighter Mobility
5 Fighter
6 Dragon Disciple Draconic toughness
7 Dragon Disciple
8 Dragon Disciple
9 Dragon Disciple multiattack
10 Fighter Spring attack

total AC 24 = 12 (base+ dragon disciple) + 9 (dragonhusk armor) + 2 (Dex) + 1 (dodge)

hitpoints 104 on average= 8+5d12+ 4d10+40+6 from dragon toughness
DR 2 from dragon aura (+1 base from aura, becomes +2 if dragonblooded)

you get 2 claws (1d4) and 1 bite (1d6) from dragon disciple and you gain an extra tail attack from dragon tail (1d6)

while raging

14/14/8 for the bite with 1d6 + 6 damage (the +8 attack might not hit so 18 on average)

12/12/12 for the 2 claws and the tail at 1d4 +3 and 1d6 +3 (16 on average)

so around 34 damage a round and spring attack+pounce gives nice options

Draz74
2010-03-12, 12:09 PM
Anyone figured out a way to get wings, Flyby Attack, and Deflect Arrows? That would be a potent combination indeed.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-12, 12:12 PM
Anyone figured out a way to get wings, Flyby Attack, and Deflect Arrows? That would be a potent combination indeed.

I was gonna suggest dragonborn wing aspect monk 2/fighter 4/something 4
BUT i forgot that continuous flying is achieved at level 12 ¬¬

Soranar
2010-03-12, 12:16 PM
I was gonna suggest dragonborn wing aspect monk 2/fighter 4/something 4
BUT i forgot that continuous flying is achieved at level 12 ¬¬

you can't use templates anyway

as for the other flying idea, considering you can't use a weapon I don't see why you need deflect arrows

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-12, 12:17 PM
you can't use templates anyway

as for the other flying idea, considering you can't use a weapon I don't see why you need deflect arrows

OH right I forgot only PB races......

Cieyrin
2010-03-12, 05:25 PM
Anyone figured out a way to get wings, Flyby Attack, and Deflect Arrows? That would be a potent combination indeed.

Dragontouched (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Dragontouched), Dragon Wings (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Dragon_Wings), Improved Dragon Wings (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Improved_Dragon_Wings)?

2 levels of Monk to pick up Deflect Arrows and use your 9th level feat for Flyby Attack. Fill in rest of build. EDIT: No point having Deflect Arrows, since there's no equipment and thus no ranged attacks, anyways, so fill build in as you see fit.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

Soranar
2010-03-12, 05:50 PM
Dragontouched (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Dragontouched), Dragon Wings (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Dragon_Wings), Improved Dragon Wings (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Improved_Dragon_Wings)?

2 levels of Monk to pick up Deflect Arrows and use your 9th level feat for Flyby Attack. Fill in rest of build.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

you still can't fly permanently, guy on the ground can just wait you out (by running away), until you're exhausted

Cieyrin
2010-03-12, 05:56 PM
you still can't fly permanently, guy on the ground can just wait you out (by running away), until you're exhausted

Improved Dragon Wings says you can glide between rounds of flying, with maximum fly time of 10 minutes. I hope that you can beat somebody in that 10 minutes, as 100 rounds of plinking at something should grind down most things, you'd think.

Soranar
2010-03-12, 05:59 PM
Improved Dragon Wings says you can glide between rounds of flying, with maximum fly time of 10 minutes. I hope that you can beat somebody in that 10 minutes, as 100 rounds of plinking at something should grind down most things, you'd think.

you can't use a ranged weapon, so the ground guy can always ready an action to grapple you to the ground , or just punch you in the face

either way you gain nothing from it

Cieyrin
2010-03-12, 06:05 PM
you can't use a ranged weapon, so the ground guy can always ready an action to grapple you to the ground , or just punch you in the face

either way you gain nothing from it

Plink doesn't necessarily refer to ranged attack, i just mean chip at 'em till dead, as per Flyby Attack. As for dealing with the grapple or punch to the face, there are methods of gaining reach so you do a kick to the face without retribution in kind. Readying to grapple or punch somebody you can't reach ain't exactly useful, y'know?

Kensen
2010-03-12, 06:11 PM
Flying gets better if you have reach. Not sure if there are many valid ways to get reach, though. Paragon classes cannot be used in this challenge, so the feat in Lords of Madness cannot be obtained so easily. There's a maneuver or stance that gives you reach, maybe it can be used.

Also, you're limiting your opponent's options. If your opponent relies on multiple attacks, charging or something else that doesn't work as a readied action (as opposed to a single strong attack or grappling), so you do gain something from it.

If each battle begins with both fighters on the ground, a set number or squares apart, it possible to attack you before you can reach a safe altitude. This hasn't been outlined in the rules, but it is a reasonable assumtion for an arena match. But if you can be airborne when the fight begins, you effectively win initiative, because the other guy cannot do anything meaninful.

Soranar
2010-03-12, 06:40 PM
I think you can still jump at them pretty easily

since jumping is a Barbarian skill, and it's a requirement for Deepwarden, and considering you gain run from lion totem barbarian (which most builds use so far, except the human monk)

with 5 skills in jump, + Str (from +3 to +7 depending on the build, again except the human monk) let's say +3, and another +4 from having run

thats +12 (with only 5 skills, if you intend to use leap attack or the like you'd put more, or if you wanted the pouncing jump from ToB)

a 2 ft jump in the air is a DC 4 (or 8 if stationary) , a medium creature has 8ft reach vertically so you can still Shōryū-ken a character to death (although a jumping grapple would be more effective)

Kensen
2010-03-12, 07:03 PM
I think you can still jump at them pretty easily

since jumping is a Barbarian skill, and it's a requirement for Deepwarden, and considering you gain run from lion totem barbarian (which most builds use so far, except the human monk)

with 5 skills in jump, + Str (from +3 to +7 depending on the build, again except the human monk) let's say +3, and another +4 from having run

thats +12 (with only 5 skills, if you intend to use leap attack or the like you'd put more, or if you wanted the pouncing jump from ToB)

a 2 ft jump in the air is a DC 4 (or 8 if stationary) , a medium creature has 8ft reach vertically so you can still Shōryū-ken a character to death (although a jumping grapple would be more effective)

True, it's easy to get a Jump modifier high enough to reach the opponent. But you can only ready one action, and jumping + attacking would require a move action + standard action if I'm correct. And the rules don't really cover attacking under such an unusual circumstance that well anyway. Does the opponent get an AoO when you fall down and leave his threat range? And so on.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-12, 07:10 PM
I think you can still jump at them pretty easily

since jumping is a Barbarian skill, and it's a requirement for Deepwarden, and considering you gain run from lion totem barbarian (which most builds use so far, except the human monk)

with 5 skills in jump, + Str (from +3 to +7 depending on the build, again except the human monk) let's say +3, and another +4 from having run

thats +12 (with only 5 skills, if you intend to use leap attack or the like you'd put more, or if you wanted the pouncing jump from ToB)

a 2 ft jump in the air is a DC 4 (or 8 if stationary) , a medium creature has 8ft reach vertically so you can still Shōryū-ken a character to death (although a jumping grapple would be more effective)

Actually, I'd wager that most of these builds are talking about the lion totem from CC not the one from UA. It gives you pounce for your fast movement, not run.

Soranar
2010-03-12, 08:00 PM
Actually, I'd wager that most of these builds are talking about the lion totem from CC not the one from UA. It gives you pounce for your fast movement, not run.

true, doesn't change anything (DC 8 jump at best is still quite easy to do even without any skillpoints in it) but I got my wires crossed on that one

Demons_eye
2010-03-12, 08:38 PM
Is meldshaping allowed? If so my vote goes to totemist 10.

Sophismata
2010-03-12, 10:01 PM
It's a shame there's no partial BAB.

Ardent 1 gives Weapon Focus and +10ft speed. (Conflict and Freedom mantles).
Psychic Warrior 1 gives a feat, which can give Speed of Thought.

KellKheraptis
2010-03-12, 10:58 PM
Anyone thought of exploiting the "considered a manufactured and natural weapon" clause yet to create a mini-Goku out of a Monk/Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade?

EDIT : Here's a sample.


1)Unarmed Swordsage 1-Quick to Act +1, Unarmed Strike, Discipline Focus (Weapon Focus : Iron Heart), Improved Natural Attack, Point Blank Shot
2)Unarmed Swordsage 2-AC Bonus
3)Unarmed Swordsage 3-Power Attack
4)Barbarian 1-Pounce, Rage 1/day
5)Barbarian 2-Uncanny Dodge
6)Bloodstorm Blade 1-Returning Attacks, Throw Anything, Weapon Aptitude, Reckless Rage
7)Bloodstorm Blade 2-Martial Throw, Thunderous Throw
8)Bloodstorm Blade 3-Bonus Fighter Feat : Far Shot
9)Bloodstorm Blade 4-Lightning Ricochet, Leap Attack
10)Unarmed Swordsage 4-Discipline Focus (Insightful Strike : Stone Dragon)

Bloodstorm Blade 4
Unarmed Swordsage 4
Barbarian 2

Base
BAB +9
Fort +8
Ref +5
Will +5

[Stats
Str 18 24 raging
Dex 14
Con 14 20 raging
Int 8
Wis 11
Cha 8


Better saves than a straight Warblade, Barb, or Crusader. Plenty sturdy with 8d12+4d8 HD, and thanks to rage not precluding readying actions, we're not too worried about fliers, since they have to come to us, and our fist has a 20 ft range. All of this is without really selecting maneuvers, which of course will ramp this up considerably, such as a few counters to swat away telling blows, and also to further bolster saves. Dex could be dropped to 10 (since we're gonna be hittable anyhow from Reckless Rage) to add more Con. Race is human. I'm tempted to work in Knowledge Devotion, as we know we're fighting humanoids, so only one knowledge needed. Though we DID dump Int...so I dunno. Also, with access to Tiger Claw tech, we further have a weapon against fliers when they get close. Now if I were to rebuild this without BSB, it would look more like an unarmed Dragoon, since Leap Attack tech seems to rule supreme here (and in fact, I'm going to edit it in in place of Snap Kick). I'll see what else I can come up with later.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-13, 01:11 AM
I don't have a specific build but I do have this: drunken masters can make ranged attacks in this setup. Because of his improvised weapon class feature, he can rip a dirt clod out of the ground and hurl it at the enemy to do his unarmed strike damage +1D4. :smallbiggrin:

Sophismata
2010-03-13, 02:11 AM
Anyone thought of exploiting the "considered a manufactured and natural weapon" clause yet to create a mini-Goku out of a Monk/Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade?

I was selecting maneuvers for him when I realised that the build posted isn't legal. You're a Swordsage, but BSB requires an Iron Heart strike and an Iron Heart stance.

That said, "Throw Anything" is worded thusly:

"You can throw a melee weapon you are proficient with as if it were a ranged weapon."

The Unarmed Strike is a light, simple melee weapon, and should qualify for throw anything. However, as a light weapon we cannot really power attack with it, so our damage suffers. Nevertheless, the build works when you take Warblade instead of Swordsage.

I'm not sure if bite attacks qualify for a 2-handed power attack (they are 1.5 str, after all), but they would at least qualify for a 1-handed power attack. If we could grab one, it should help with damage.

1) Warblade 1- Battle Clarity, Weapon Aptitude, Improved Unarmed Strike, Point Blank Shot
2) Barbarian 1 - Pounce, Rage 1/day
3) Barbarian 2 - Uncanny Dodge, Superior Unarmed Strike
4) Warblade 2 - Improved Uncanny Dodge
5) Warblade 3 - Battle Ardour
6) Bloodstorm Blade 1 - Returning Attacks, Throw Anything, Weapon Aptitude, Reckless Rage
7) Bloodstorm Blade 2 - Martial Throw, Thunderous Throw
8) Bloodstorm Blade 3 - Bonus Fighter Feat : Far Shot
9) Bloodstorm Blade 4 - Lightning Ricochet, Feat
10) Warblade 4 - Level 3 stance, 4th level maneuver

The 4th level maneuver should probably be Mind Strike or Ruby Nightmare Blade. Not sure about the stance.

KellKheraptis
2010-03-13, 02:46 AM
I was selecting maneuvers for him when I realised that the build posted isn't legal. You're a Swordsage, but BSB requires an Iron Heart strike and an Iron Heart stance.

That said, "Throw Anything" is worded thusly:

"You can throw a melee weapon you are proficient with as if it were a ranged weapon."

The Unarmed Strike is a light, simple melee weapon, and should qualify for throw anything. However, as a light weapon we cannot really power attack with it, so our damage suffers. Nevertheless, the build works when you take Warblade instead of Swordsage.

I'm not sure if bite attacks qualify for a 2-handed power attack (they are 1.5 str, after all), but they would at least qualify for a 1-handed power attack. If we could grab one, it should help with damage.

1) Warblade 1- Battle Clarity, Weapon Aptitude, Improved Unarmed Strike, Point Blank Shot
2) Barbarian 1 - Pounce, Rage 1/day
3) Barbarian 2 - Uncanny Dodge, Superior Unarmed Strike
4) Warblade 2 - Improved Uncanny Dodge
5) Warblade 3 - Battle Ardour
6) Bloodstorm Blade 1 - Returning Attacks, Throw Anything, Weapon Aptitude, Reckless Rage
7) Bloodstorm Blade 2 - Martial Throw, Thunderous Throw
8) Bloodstorm Blade 3 - Bonus Fighter Feat : Far Shot
9) Bloodstorm Blade 4 - Lightning Ricochet, Feat
10) Warblade 4 - Level 3 stance, 4th level maneuver

The 4th level maneuver should probably be Mind Strike or Ruby Nightmare Blade. Not sure about the stance.

True, substitute 4th level in Swordsage for 1st in Warblade. As for Power Attack, it's also a Natural Weapon, remember? We can power attack just fine with those.

Kensen
2010-03-13, 05:22 AM
Demons_eye: Meldshaping classes are allowed, but they're pretty much useless as few of their better abilities are (Ex). No (Su) and (Sp) abilities function in an area where magic and psionics are suppressed, so totemists are little more than glorified commoners. :smallbiggrin: Psionic classes, spellcasters, binders, etc. face the same problem.

Sophismata: A PsyWar dip may be useful for the bonus feat, but as was discussed above, all psionic feats are supernatural and don't work in an area where psionics are suppressed. It's specifically mentioned in the book/srd.

The ardent mantles do indeed work if they grant extraordinary abilities. I presume they're much like a cleric's domains. Most domain powers are either (Su) or related to spellcasting, but there are a few (Ex) ones out there, such as the Luck domain power.

Kell: You give "throwing a punch" a new meaning. :smallwink: The Throw Anything feat doesn't enable throwing weapons unsuited for throwing, it only removes the -4 penalty. It's possible to throw your unarmed strike without the feat:

"It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet. "

Also note that nowhere in the rules text is it mentioned that the weapon thrown must be a manufactured weapon (and as always, RAW > common sense). Thus, next time you encounter a desperate bear, be careful, it might attempt an improvised ranged bite attack.

If someone tells you that it doesn't work, rebuke them for making up silly house rules that don't make sense. :smallbiggrin:

It should also be noted that "A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." (Emphasis mine.)

For any other purpose, it's neither a natural weapon or manufactured weapon.

Soranar
2010-03-13, 12:13 PM
Demons_eye: Meldshaping classes are allowed, but they're pretty much useless as few of their better abilities are (Ex). No (Su) and (Sp) abilities function in an area where magic and psionics are suppressed, so totemists are little more than glorified commoners. :smallbiggrin: Psionic classes, spellcasters, binders, etc. face the same problem.

Sophismata: A PsyWar dip may be useful for the bonus feat, but as was discussed above, all psionic feats are supernatural and don't work in an area where psionics are suppressed. It's specifically mentioned in the book/srd.

The ardent mantles do indeed work if they grant extraordinary abilities. I presume they're much like a cleric's domains. Most domain powers are either (Su) or related to spellcasting, but there are a few (Ex) ones out there, such as the Luck domain power.

Kell: You give "throwing a punch" a new meaning. :smallwink: The Throw Anything feat doesn't enable throwing weapons unsuited for throwing, it only removes the -4 penalty. It's possible to throw your unarmed strike without the feat:

"It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet. "

Also note that nowhere in the rules text is it mentioned that the weapon thrown must be a manufactured weapon (and as always, RAW > common sense). Thus, next time you encounter a desperate bear, be careful, it might attempt an improvised ranged bite attack.

If someone tells you that it doesn't work, rebuke them for making up silly house rules that don't make sense. :smallbiggrin:

It should also be noted that "A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." (Emphasis mine.)

For any other purpose, it's neither a natural weapon or manufactured weapon.

*cough* The removing of fists (unless you happen to be a construct, undead or a warlock using an invocation) is usually considered a life-threatening wound.

seems to me like this would definitely qualify as an Sp or Su effect.

With that said, Goldorak technique for the win!

Kensen
2010-03-13, 12:29 PM
*cough* The removing of fists (unless you happen to be a construct, undead or a warlock using an invocation) is usually considered a life-threatening wound.

seems to me like this would definitely qualify as an Sp or Su effect.

With that said, Goldorak technique for the win!

I know, I was joking. I would never allow that in my games. :smallbiggrin: Just saying that the rules don't explicitly say you cannot throw your unarmed strike or natural weapon.

Anyway, looks like no-one wants to try their build in a PvP tournament. :smallfrown:

KellKheraptis
2010-03-13, 01:19 PM
I should most definitely think that being able to attack at range with a hook kick is an improvement. It spells out a target melee weapon, which an unarmed strike qualifies as so long as you are a class/creature that considers it's unarmed strikes as natural or manufactured weapons. I'm 100% RAW legal. Cheesy as hell sending globs of compressed air at fliers, but still legal :P

Haven
2010-03-13, 01:37 PM
No (Su) and (Sp) abilities function in an area where magic and psionics are suppressed, so totemists are little more than glorified commoners.

This got me all set to work out a Chicken Infested build for this until I remembered that it was a Flaw, printed in Dragon...so yeah.

Anyway: I note that Steely Resolve is (Ex), along with all of the other Crusader class features. Considering how many of these fights probably devolve into slugging it out to see who drops first, there's probably a pretty viable path there.

Kensen
2010-03-13, 02:24 PM
I should most definitely think that being able to attack at range with a hook kick is an improvement. It spells out a target melee weapon, which an unarmed strike qualifies as so long as you are a class/creature that considers it's unarmed strikes as natural or manufactured weapons. I'm 100% RAW legal. Cheesy as hell sending globs of compressed air at fliers, but still legal :P

Oh well, I'll disprove this "myth".

Is the unarmed strike normally a melee weapon?

SRD: "Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following: ..."

Apparently not. But is a monk's unarmed strike a melee weapon?

"A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

Apparently not. But it counts as one for the purpose of certain spells and effects. We're discussing the possibility of using the unarmed strike for the purpose of throwing it. Is throwing a melee weapon a spell or effect that enhances or improves natural or manufactured weapons?

No. Making a ranged attack with a melee weapon is an action that you can do anyway, whether you have the feat or not. The feat doesn't make the unarmed strike a melee weapon, it simply removes the penalty associated with throwing melee weapons that don't have a range increment.

KellKheraptis
2010-03-13, 02:35 PM
Oh well, I'll disprove this "myth".

Is the unarmed strike normally a melee weapon?

SRD: "Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following: ..."

Apparently not. But is a monk's unarmed strike a melee weapon?

"A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

Apparently not. But it counts as one for the purpose of certain spells and effects. We're discussing the possibility of using the unarmed strike for the purpose of throwing it. Is throwing a melee weapon a spell or effect that enhances or improves natural or manufactured weapons?

No. Making a ranged attack with a melee weapon is an action that you can do anyway, whether you have the feat or not. The feat doesn't make the unarmed strike a melee weapon, it simply removes the penalty associated with throwing melee weapons that don't have a range increment.

Still a houserule though, as it is explicitly called out as a weapon when related to an effect, which all aspects of BSB are. That aside, I was being nice using an all-arounder. Let me stop by the Initiative thread and post a Dragoon on go-first crack :)

Cieyrin
2010-03-13, 02:53 PM
1)Unarmed Swordsage 1-Quick to Act +1, Unarmed Strike, Discipline Focus (Weapon Focus : Iron Heart), Improved Natural Attack, Point Blank Shot

Another problem with your build is Improved Natural Attack has a BAB requirement of +4, so not available at 1st level. :smallannoyed:

KellKheraptis
2010-03-13, 02:56 PM
Another problem with your build is Improved Natural Attack has a BAB requirement of +4, so not available at 1st level. :smallannoyed:

Feat placement can be worked around. I also haven't added the 2 bonus feats from selling my soul, nor the (I believe 3 at this level) for devotion to an elder evil.

Kensen
2010-03-13, 03:15 PM
Still a houserule though, as it is explicitly called out as a weapon when related to an effect, which all aspects of BSB are. That aside, I was being nice using an all-arounder. Let me stop by the Initiative thread and post a Dragoon on go-first crack :)

They are considered as natural and manufactured weapons for the purpose of effects that enhance or improve weapons, not all effects related to weapons. A feat that allows you to do something with a weapon does not enhance a weapon anyhow, it only enhances your ability to use it. The weapon itself remains unchanged.

To make it easier to understand, here's a parallel. A character owns a short sword. He takes Weapon Focus (Short sword). Is it a spell of effect that enhances or improves the weapon? No, while his ability to hits things with it is enhanced, it's still the same sword, absolutely nothing about the sword has changed. The character also takes the Throw Anything feat. Now he can throw the short sword. (He was able to do it before, mind you, but now there's no penalty involved.) Is the sword enhanced or improved anyhow? No, it's still the same old sword.

Does that feat improve or enhance weapons other than short swords? No, as far as I can see it, the weapons remain the same. You can even throw a dead hamster, but your feat doesn't make it a Dead Hamster of Throwing, i.e. enhance it.

Another thing to consider. How many spare Unarmed Strikes do you have? If you throw a melee weapon, it's no longer equipped. It lands in the square your target is in. Being un-unarmed is a scary thought. :smalltongue:

EDIT: Actually, I didn't find a rule that says a thrown weapon ever leaves your hand. It is not mentioned if the thrown weapon lands in the square your target is in, if it continues on its path past the target, or if it remains in your hand. If you can find this rule, please give me a link. The Returning ability, however, suggests that a thrown weapon does leave your hand.

Kensen
2010-03-13, 03:16 PM
Feat placement can be worked around. I also haven't added the 2 bonus feats from selling my soul, nor the (I believe 3 at this level) for devotion to an elder evil.

How do you sell your soul and what do you get from it?

Cieyrin
2010-03-13, 03:24 PM
Another thing to consider. How many spare Unarmed Strikes do you have? If you throw a melee weapon, it's no longer equipped. It lands in the square your target is in. Being un-unarmed is a scary thought. :smalltongue:

Well, considering you can unarmed strike with anything, not just your fists, I'd say quite a bit. Though, generally, you'd want Detach (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Detach) if you want to do that on any type of frequency, as well as not to die of blood loss while doing so. :smalltongue:

KellKheraptis
2010-03-13, 03:25 PM
Up to two feats, and Fiendish Codex IIRC. And we're going to have to agree to disagree on BSB and unarmed strikes, as you're hung up on failing to see BSB's class features as an effect. Using Weapon Focus as an example is pathetic in this case, as it is specific to one weapon and the ability bestowed by BSB is general to all weapons. As stated before though, in an already houserule heavy thread, I'm busting out Dragoon tech and letting BSB go by the wayside in lieu of things getting ugly.

Kensen
2010-03-13, 03:49 PM
Throw Anything doesn't enhance a weapon. It doesn't matter whether the feat applies to all weapons or not. It cannot, it will not enhance any weapon. It gives the character the ability to throw melee weapons without penalty. But the weapon itself isn't enhanced. Only that is relevant. It is relevant because the monk treats the unarmed strike as a natural/manufactured weapon for only that one purpose. If an effect doesn't enhance the unarmed strike, there's no point in arguing about it.

Umm, I also have to disagree on this thread being houserule heavy. :smallconfused:

Pretty much everything works exactly the same as in a "vanilla" campaign. I've specifically stated that variant rules are not used. Most of the restrictions are circumstancial. Demiplanes are covered in the official WotC books. Antimagic is covered in the rules (and the antimagic/antipsionic effect is an Epic spell).

Just how many houserules do you see in this thread?

Sophismata
2010-03-13, 08:36 PM
Wait, wait, I'm lost now.

AFAIK, Kensen agreed with the silly awesome 'throwing unarmed strike' thing, because unarmed strikes are a melee weapon, and you may throw any melee weapon at a -4 penalty (and full-round action for 2-handers). The feat Throw Anything removed these two penalties, allowing you to "throw any melee weapon as if it were a ranged weapon".

We cannot, and never could, use Power Attack with unarmed strike, or any other ability that relies on it being a natural attack, because it's not. It is treated as a natural attack and/or manufactured weapon only when casting spells on it, which is irrelevant for the purposes of this thread.


Unarmed Strike
A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike. A Small character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, at her option. The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike.


It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

There is, upon reconsideration, some issue with the fact that unarmed strike is an "unarmed weapon" rather than a "melee weapon". However; given that it is specifically called out as "always considered a light weapon", with no qualifiers, we should be able to ignore this.

Draz74
2010-03-13, 09:17 PM
We cannot, and never could, use Power Attack with unarmed strike, or any other ability that relies on it being a natural attack, because it's not. It is treated as a natural attack and/or manufactured weapon only when casting spells on it, which is irrelevant for the purposes of this thread.

People never seem to be able to remember this rule nor where it comes from ...


You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies.

So you most certainly can Power Attack with an unarmed strike. And even whether you're a Monk is totally irrelevant.

Haven
2010-03-13, 10:45 PM
It is treated as a natural attack and/or manufactured weapon only when casting spells on it, which is irrelevant for the purposes of this thread.

I think the problem with saying that is that it assumes that the repeatedly-quoted
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons

adds in an "only" which is not in the text: it doesn't say that it's treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon only for those purposes. The purpose of the line is, IMO, to ensure that it would count as a manufactured weapon for those effects, without excluding effects that work on its usual type (a natural weapon).

The definition of Natural weapon is "Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature"--which the Monk's unarmed strike is.

Further, there's the text of Magic Fang (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicFang.htm): it affects natural weapons, and fists and unarmed strikes are grouped in among them.

Sophismata
2010-03-14, 12:38 AM
So you most certainly can Power Attack with an unarmed strike. And even whether you're a Monk is totally irrelevant.

Thankyou. Now that you've posted it, I remember it being there. Guess I thought it was just wishful thinking before :smallfrown:.

Kensen
2010-03-14, 02:17 AM
If the unarmed strike was a natural attack, you'd never get more attacks with it for a high bab. Thus, in this respect it is not considered a natural attack. The unarmed strike is not considered a natural weapon for all purposes.

In a RAW discussion, the monk's description means just what it says. There's no "only" in the description, but if we start discussing the writer's intent (i.e. RAI vs RAW), I don't see why we are even discussing the possibility of throwing something that is an intrinsic part of your body. Moreover, as I successfully proved in my earlier paragraph, the unarmed strike is not a natural attack because you can get more attacks with a high bab. This supports my opinion on the intent of the writer. "Only" is strongly implied.

The magic fang does call it a natural attack, but then again, the spell enhances a natural weapon, which is just what the monk's unarmed strike counts as a natural weapon for. The wording is poor as it may give you the idea that all unarmed strikes are natural weapons for all purposes.

The weapons table proves that the unarmed strike is not a melee weapon. It's listed in a category separate from melee and ranged weapons. While it's always considered a light weapon, it's not considered as a light melee weapon, because it is not listed as a light melee weapon.

Also, in the combat section of the PHB, under standard actions -> attack, Melee Attacks and Unarmed Attacks are two separate categories. The unarmed attack is not a melee attack even though it is much like a melee attack.

EDIT: Oh and I did admit earlier that there's nothing in the rules that prevents you from throwing a natural attack. They count as melee weapons. But since unarmed strikes are not natural attacks for purposes other than what's said in the monk's description, you cannot throw them.

EDIT2: Actually, I re-read the section about natural weapons, and noticed they're not defined as melee weapons although you can make melee attacks with them. So, I was wrong about that. You cannot throw natural weapons or unarmed attacks. Only melee weapons.

And one last thing: None of the abilities that the martial adept prestige class lets you do improve or enhance the weapon you use. Theoretically speaking, you could enhance your fists with the Throwing special ability if you took levels in the Kensai class. But even then, you'd not benefit from the enhancement because for the purpose of throwing, your fists are not manufactured / melee weapons.

Anyway, back to the original topic...