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quiet1mi
2010-03-09, 10:03 AM
Hey guys, I am going to play in another campaign and I am Banned from playing anything remotely sneaky (just got done playing a 12 level beguiler and I am a faster thinker than my GM:smallsmile:)

So I was thinking about playing some devout and pious... Paladin came up, and while I like adding CHA to saves, being immune to things and all the basic things they get... The Crusader gets maneuvers... I am not bothered by the honor code for the paladin, I am just curious how a paladin would stack up compared to the crusader... or is the Paladin good for a limited Dip?

I think the base level would be 10... and I think there is going to be level adjustment buy off.

I know my base feats are going to be the following:
Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper... because I can protect people better if the people trying to hurt them are unconscious from my merciful greatsword...

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-09, 10:09 AM
I think it depends on what you want to do.

My sugestion is go 4-5 paladin then the rest crusader.
it realy depends on what you want
if you go a 5 dip i would switch out the mount of charging smite variant.
4 level dip is most optimal i belive.



Though some say a 6th level dip to grab a remove desises... with crusader technicaly you want even number of the non initiator class..

Grumman
2010-03-09, 10:12 AM
If you want a special mount, get out at Paladin 5 and switch to PrCs. Otherwise, get out after Paladin 2.

EDIT:

Though some say a 6th level dip to grab a remove desises... with crusader technicaly you want even number of the non initiator class..
No, if healing diseases is really that important to you, get a cleric. Treating one person per week isn't worth much.

Godskook
2010-03-09, 10:22 AM
It isn't a 'standard' paladin, but how about a Sorcadin? Shocktrooper would be a bit dangerous on such a build as a base feat, but Sorcadins have access to 2+ fighter feats as buffs(More if your Int is decent).

The chasis:
Paladin 2/Sorc 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

Standard feats:
Power Attack
Practiced Spellcaster
Combat Casting(Required)
Arcane Strike

Options:
Monk's Belt + Improved Unarmed Strike + Ascetic Mage = Cha to AC
Arcane Preparation + (Greater) Luminous Armor = full plate protection that works with being an Abjurant Champion
Divine Might + Sacred Excorcist = Cha to damage(ECL 13, though).
Heroics + Mirror Move = 2+ fighter feats as buffs, even if your DM rules that Heroics doesn't stack with itself.

Also, ask your DM if (Greater) Mage Armor works with Abjurant Champion class features. Would still lose 2 AC to GLA, but to free up a feat slot, that's worth it.

lsfreak
2010-03-09, 10:29 AM
See this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144605). It's still active.

If you've got Complete Champion and Spell Compendium available, paladin/ordained champion isn't bad. Law Devotion is basically smite++ without the nova'ing that smite tends to do. A cleric-like paladin (cleric/prestige paladin/ordained champion/knight of the raven, for example) is probably the best for filling the paladin archetype, if you'd prefer not to go ToB.

Yukitsu
2010-03-09, 10:29 AM
Hey guys, I am going to play in another campaign and I am Banned from playing anything remotely sneaky (just got done playing a 12 level beguiler and I am a faster thinker than my GM:smallsmile:)

So I was thinking about playing some devout and pious... Paladin came up, and while I like adding CHA to saves, being immune to things and all the basic things they get... The Crusader gets maneuvers... I am not bothered by the honor code for the paladin, I am just curious how a paladin would stack up compared to the crusader... or is the Paladin good for a limited Dip?

I think the base level would be 10... and I think there is going to be level adjustment buy off.

I know my base feats are going to be the following:
Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper... because I can protect people better if the people trying to hurt them are unconscious from my merciful greatsword...

For the majority of people the majority of the time, the crusader is the better class at being a paladin hands down. In my view however, a paladin well optimized can outdo a crusader in terms of pure damage, defense and more importantly for your build, charging.

If you're going down the charge route, not much is better than a paladin on his special mount.

People say to jump out after 5, but only do so if you take something that will advance your steeds HD, otherwise it'll die like any other chump mount.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-09, 10:30 AM
If you want a special mount, get out at Paladin 5 and switch to PrCs. Otherwise, get out after Paladin 2.

EDIT:

No, if healing diseases is really that important to you, get a cleric. Treating one person per week isn't worth much.

your right about the disease thing. though i still stand that for a paladin esc build with crusdaer paly 4 is where to go. as you will have turn undead attempts. and a few other goodies.

subject42
2010-03-09, 10:38 AM
See if you would be allowed to use the Rebalanced Paladin or the Pathfinder Paladin. Both of them are a substantial step up from the 3.5 stock version.

Volkov
2010-03-09, 11:26 AM
Ask your dm for rolls instead of point buy and pray for good rolls on Wis, Cha, Int, Str, and Con. (Int for combat expertise and skill points). If you're lucky, this can fix the MADness of the paladin somewhat.

Critical
2010-03-09, 11:33 AM
Paladin of Tyranny 3/Hexblade 4/Blackguard 3. Cha to saves thrice! If you can, add half-dragon template to that, and get 4x Cha to saves. Also, debuffs greatly using the Dark Companion ACF, Paladin of Tyranny Aura, Blackguard Aura, Intimidating and Improved Binding(Bind Focolor). Make sure to get some weapon with DC/Poisons.

Petrocorus
2010-03-09, 12:08 PM
The chasis:
Paladin 2/Sorc 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

Arcane Preparation + (Greater) Luminous Armor = full plate protection that works with being an Abjurant Champion
Heroics + Mirror Move = 2+ fighter feats as buffs, even if your DM rules that Heroics doesn't stack with itself.


What are Heroics and mirror move? Spells?

Have you tried to use another PrC in place of Sacred Exorcist?

lsfreak
2010-03-09, 12:21 PM
What are Heroics and mirror move? Spells?

Have you tried to use another PrC in place of Sacred Exorcist?

Yes, they're spells that let you imitate fighter feats.

There's no reason to take something other than Sacred Excorcist - full spellcasting progression, d8HD, a cleric's BAB, turn undead for tasty Divine feats, and more church-based fluff than a typical sorcerer has. The only better PrC for a gish is Abjurant Champion, which of course is already used.

Petrocorus
2010-03-09, 12:27 PM
Yes, they're spells that let you imitate fighter feats.

Where can i find those?



There's no reason to take something other than Sacred Excorcist - full spellcasting progression, d8HD, a cleric's BAB, turn undead for tasty Divine feats, and more church-based fluff than a typical sorcerer has. The only better PrC for a gish is Abjurant Champion, which of course is already used.
I don't know all the PrC, that why i asked.
I was thinking maybe to take 2 more lvl in spellsword or to try Fist of raziel / Knight of the Raven, but i forgot that they all have you lose a critical caster level.

lsfreak
2010-03-09, 12:42 PM
Mirror Move (http://69.8.198.251/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20000901a)
Heroics is in SpC. I don't know if it's in another book as well or not.

Sacred Exorcist is in Complete Divine. It gets you most of what Knight of the Raven does - you keep an extra caster level and get turning 2 levels earlier, but go from full BAB to 7/10. Thanks to Abjurant Champion and your paladin levels, though, you still end up with 4 attacks if you're going all the way to 20.

dspeyer
2010-03-10, 12:08 AM
Another option is to play a melee-focused cleric and call yourself a paladin. You can pick up a level or three in prestige paladin if you want smite evil, or use avenging strike if you fight fiends. If you can dmm persist divine power, you don't need to worry about BAB. You can go straight with ever-improving buffs or mix in ToB and take Ruby Knight Vindicator (or, if minimal homebrew is allowed bright champion vindicator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7759975)).

Agrippa
2010-03-10, 12:54 AM
No, if healing diseases is really that important to you, get a cleric. Treating one person per week isn't worth much.

One of the powers atributed to just and rightful kings was the ability to cure disease by touch. That's why paladins get it as an actual class feature. maybe if they could cure disease more often it might be a more useful class ability.

HunterOfJello
2010-03-10, 12:58 AM
the Prestige Class Paladin is always a nice alternative

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-10, 01:03 AM
For a more RP optimization here's something to keep in mind after playing sneaky guys.
I am sworn to valor
My heart only virtue
My words speak only truth
My might upholds the weak
My blade defends the helpless
My wraith undoes the wicked.

Yes I know shamelessly ripped off from dragonheart but its a great thing for a Paladin to say.

Godskook
2010-03-10, 01:06 AM
Have you tried to use another PrC in place of Sacred Exorcist?

No, I haven't. I'm unaware of any PrC that fits the Sorcadin as well as the Sacred Exorcist does that isn't already used to its fullest. A sorcerer gish with 9th spell access may only sacrifice 2 levels of spellcasting over the course of its progression. A sorcadin gives both to Paladin 2 for Cha to saves. That means that the only options left that still get the spells are full-casting classes. Spellsword isn't after 1st, which is why it is only dipped. AbChamp is fully progressed cause its awesome-sauce. 1 level of Sacred Exorcist is almost required for turning, and 4 is pretty much a given. If I could find a full BAB + full casting PrC for the last 4 levels, I'd think about not finishing it out in SacEx, but 90% of them give up a caster level at first level.

Now, if you're a dragon-wrought kobold, the whole evaluation changes, but then again, every topic changes when you put a dragon-wrought kobold into the equation.

Yorrin
2010-03-10, 01:16 AM
If for some crazy reason you go deep enough into Paladin to get lvl3 spells, Find the Gap allows you to target touch AC. Combine with Divine Metamagic(Persistent Spell) and you're attacking vs Touch AC all day long for the price of one feat and 6 turn undead attempts.

Godskook
2010-03-10, 01:29 AM
If for some crazy reason you go deep enough into Paladin to get lvl3 spells, Find the Gap allows you to target touch AC. Combine with Divine Metamagic(Persistent Spell) and you're attacking vs Touch AC all day long for the price of one feat and 6 turn undead attempts.

Not bad advice.

For a Sorcadin that's using DMM(Persist) *ANYWAY*, though, persisting wraithstrike is much more viable, since it doesn't require any additional paladin levels to use, and accomplishes the same thing.

Petrocorus
2010-03-10, 06:18 AM
Not bad advice.

For a Sorcadin that's using DMM(Persist) *ANYWAY*, though, persisting wraithstrike is much more viable, since it doesn't require any additional paladin levels to use, and accomplishes the same thing.

So it's possible to use DMM with arcane spell. By RAW?

Do you have tried to use reserve feats with a Sorcadin?

Does Arcane Strike really worth a spell?

What would build the best race for that build? Human, Aasimar, other?

Optimystik
2010-03-10, 08:39 AM
the Prestige Class Paladin is always a nice alternative

This. Be a Cleric/Favored Soul with a 1-level dip in Prestige Paladin (for access to their spell list, Detect Evil and MWP) and just call yourself a paladin.

quiet1mi
2010-03-10, 10:46 AM
Cruchwise, I would say cleric...

Fluffwise, I would say Favored Soul... as Paladins, in the climax of most games, do not see eye to eye with their patron church.

Mongoose87
2010-03-10, 10:57 AM
This. Be a Cleric/Favored Soul with a 1-level dip in Prestige Paladin (for access to their spell list, Detect Evil and MWP) and just call yourself a paladin.

That second level is so tempting... Divine grace? Yes, please!

Roderick_BR
2010-03-10, 11:05 AM
Paladin of Tyranny 3/Hexblade 4/Blackguard 3. Cha to saves thrice!
As a general rule, "Cha to saves" doesn't stack. Also, if you use a variant alignment paladin, one of the adjusts a DM may make is not allow Blackguards, since the evil paladins already cover this role. Not sure on the exact wording of Hexblade, though, even if his archetype already sounds a bit like a evil paladin type.

Optimystik
2010-03-10, 11:10 AM
As a general rule, "Cha to saves" doesn't stack.

That depends on how it is worded.

"You get a Charisma bonus to saving throws" would not stack with similarly worded bonuses.
"You get a bonus to your saving throws equal to your Charisma bonus" would stack, because the bonus itself is untyped. It just happens to use your Cha modifier to calculate the number.

Divine Grace (Pal) uses the second wording, Dark Blessing (BG) uses the first, and Arcane Resistance (Hex) uses the second, therefore all three do indeed stack.

Amphetryon
2010-03-10, 11:17 AM
That depends on how it is worded.

"You get a Charisma bonus to saving throws" would not stack with similarly worded bonuses.
"You get a bonus to your saving throws equal to your Charisma bonus" would stack, because the bonus itself is untyped. It just happens to use your Cha modifier to calculate the number.

Divine Grace (Pal) uses the second wording, Dark Blessing (BG) uses the first, and Arcane Resistance (Hex) uses the second, therefore all three do indeed stack.

This is technically true. I have never had a DM rule it worked like that in a campaign, though.

Petrocorus
2010-03-10, 11:32 AM
That second level is so tempting... Divine grace? Yes, please!

Combined with the Favoured Soul's saves, that's awesome.

But qualifying for Pr Paladin with favoured soul need to dip (and qualify ) in Sacred exorcist first, for the turn undead ability. Or a dip in Cleric which also grant the domain powers.

Someone know an optimal build?

Amphetryon
2010-03-10, 12:18 PM
DaveTheMagicWeasel made a Favored Soul-zilla back in the day on WotC.

Eldariel
2010-03-10, 02:32 PM
I'd probably just go Cleric with 3 levels of Prestige Paladin to pick up Special Mount with Holy Mount if necessary. Then go to town with full+3 Mount-progression, 19/20 casting and 15/20 BAB (18/16 with fourth PrC Paladin-level).

JaronK
2010-03-18, 10:27 PM
A DMM:Persistant Cloistered Cleric 7/PrC Paladin 2/Any appropriate PrC 1 with Holy Mount is going to be pretty much strictly better than a pure Paladin 10, so you might want to consider that. It has all the same class features, after all... just make sure to persist Divine Power. Knowledge Devotion would also be wise.

And if your DM will let you combine Ruby Knight Vindicator with Cloistered Cleric, Crusader, and PrC Paladin, then awesome.

JaronK

Petrocorus
2010-03-18, 10:41 PM
I have looked on this since you gave me this build, and i pondered:
Cloistered Cleric 4/Church Inquisitor 3/PrC Paladin 2/Sacred Exorcist 10/Contemplative 1

That allows to qualify for Pr Paladin without using DMM: Persist for meeting the BAB prerequisite, i find this more "DM-friendly".
You also gain a bonus domain and some class features, + 3 HP on average, that cost you only 6 skill point.

jiriku
2010-03-18, 11:04 PM
You can make a nice caster-killing paladin with the right selection of ACFs. Swap your turn undead for divine counterspell (assuming your DM interprets it to allow counterspelling without a readied action, and lets you use the counterspell attempts interchangeably with effects that check for turn undead attempts), your mount for the underdark knight set of abilities, and your remove disease for remove curse. Swap your spellcasting for pally feats, and take the mageslayer line. Your end result is mobile combatant who can suppress casters, dispel some of their debuffs, hack through their defensive magic and defensive casting, and shrug off most of their save-based spells. Further, you're a solid front-line combatant even when there are no spellcasters around to harry.

One of my players used this sort of paladin build from levels 6-8 in a recent campaign, and was quite pleased with the effect. He was the anchor of the team and more than carried his weight.