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LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-09, 12:33 PM
Note: The Riddick concept was KIA, so now I'm forced to improvise and create a concept I've wanted to run: a Gish. Also, I enjoy playing Dwarf. However, I feel like dwarf and spellcasting is almost not meant to be...

However, I'm willing to (hopefully) make it work...

Race: Gold Dwarf (probably the best 0LA dwarf)
Class: No Clue. I want to cast ARCANE whilst wearing fullplate and dual wielding maces or an axe and shield combo

Any Ideas? This will probably enter epic eventually. We are all Lv 10 currently

TaintedLight
2010-03-09, 12:37 PM
After recently tinkering with a sorcadin build, I've sort of become a fan of that particular strategy. Level 10 is about where it comes into its own, so maybe something like that?

unre9istered
2010-03-09, 12:39 PM
For casting in Full plate go at least 1 level Runesmith. It's a dwarven prestige class that trades somatic components for a 0 cost material component that cannot be eliminated with Eschew materials (the runes). You only need the first level to get the worthwhile ability of the class though.

Other ideas:

Get spiked full plate and use the spiked gauntlets as unarmed attacks to deliver touch spells.


Or go with the Strength Devotion for the Slam attack to deliver your spells (get nightstick to allow multiple uses of it per day).


Or go with 3 levels of Duskblade and deliver your spells with a Dwarven Waraxe for extra dwarfy flavor.

Amphetryon
2010-03-09, 12:42 PM
Psychic Warrior/Iron Mind is an option for a Dwarf with gish flavor.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-09, 12:44 PM
do you have access to races of stone. theres a dwarf sorcerer alternate class feature that gives you DR and some other goodies.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-09, 12:45 PM
I have a few more requirements:

No Paly. Due to its limited alignment choices (I really like playing LN ;3)
As high of a BAB as possible without any "gray rule reading"
Up to 8th level spells if possible [note: Or Duskblade's maximum power fully maxed](I, once again, have a party who has an Incubus Bard)
Using either a Gold or better subrace of Dwarf

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-09, 12:46 PM
Psychic Warrior/Iron Mind is an option for a Dwarf with gish flavor.

My dm despises Psionics. So sorry folks, no psigishes (read above for reqs)

CyMage
2010-03-09, 12:52 PM
As someone said, Runesmith is the way to go.

Fighter/Wiz/Runesmith/Abjurant Champion is probably simplest way for level 10. Adjust the levels to taste.

I'm personaly toying with a Wiz/Crusader/Runesmith/JPM idea. Again, levels can be adjusted a bit.

TaintedLight
2010-03-09, 12:53 PM
Well, you might be able to pull something vaguely resembling coherent out of this 30th level gish build I was toying with the other day since you said this campaign might eventually go epic:

Sorcerer 2/Warblade 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Knight Phantom 1/Swiftblade 10/Knight Phantom 7/Warblade 1


It's a mess of PrCs, which appeals to some and disgusts others, but it's functional. 19 BAB by 20th level, sorcerer spells known level of 13, and Abjurant goodness.

I originally drew this up with an idea in mind for a character who used his magical abilities to augment his blinding speed. How does a four-round Time Stop sound to set yourself up with Greater Mighty Wallop, Wraithstrike, a blurstrike weapon, and then Time Stands Still sound to you?

CyMage
2010-03-09, 12:56 PM
Well, you might be able to pull something vaguely resembling coherent out of this 30th level gish build I was toying with the other day since you said this campaign might eventually go epic:

Sorcerer 2/Warblade 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Knight Phantom 1/Swiftblade 10/Knight Phantom 7/Warblade 1


It's a mess of PrCs, which appeals to some and disgusts others, but it's functional. 19 BAB by 20th level, sorcerer spells known level of 13, and Abjurant goodness.

I originally drew this up with an idea in mind for a character who used his magical abilities to augment his blinding speed. How does a four-round Time Stop sound to set yourself up with Greater Mighty Wallop, Wraithstrike, a blurstrike weapon, and then Time Stands Still sound to you?

No need to cast Wraithstrike during the 'time stop'. It's a swift spell and only lasts the round it's cast in. It'll be done before the 'time stop'.

TaintedLight
2010-03-09, 12:58 PM
No need to cast Wraithstrike during the 'time stop'. It's a swift spell and only lasts the round it's cast in. It'll be done before the 'time stop'.

True, but I think the point was well made :smallbiggrin:.

EDIT: And, I should mention, this build does achieve a sorcerer spells-known level of 20 by 30th. If you get that far.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-09, 01:57 PM
My DM gave me literally 2 options: Battle/Stalwart Sorcerer or the full caster version of Warmage. I'll take 3/4 BAB for full casting over full BAB and crippled casting, so I pick "Warmage"

However, I like Runesmith Dip and definately Abj Champ.

So Here's my concept (hope it works ;3)

Race: Gold Dwarf or other Dwarf Subrace
Class: Warmage 8/Fighter 2/Runesmith 1/Abjurant Champ 5/Knight Phantom 4
Feats (minus required for PrCs): Practiced Spellcaster, Arcane Strike, Improved Shield Bash, Armored Caster (+1 to max armor [ie: If none than light, ect. Plus Shields], Battle Caster
Flaws: Alcoholic, Murky Eyed
Weapons: Throwing Hammers (DM gives dwarves porf for free), Dwarven Waraxe, Heavy Spiked Shield
Armor: Fullplate
Other Items: Waist-Wineskin filled with alcoholic beverage

Human Paragon 3
2010-03-09, 02:02 PM
Fighter 4? Noooo!

Way too big a loss in caster level. I know feats are great and all, but 2 levels of fighter MAX preferably 1. If you want more full BAB class in there, take more levels of knight phantom, or at least Eldritch Knight.

If you take Wizard instead of Warmage, you can trade your wizard feats for fighter feats thanks to unearthed arcana. Specialize in Evocation and grab some of the evoker alternate class features while you're at it and you'll be plenty blasty.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-09, 02:07 PM
Fighter 4? Noooo!

Way too big a loss in caster level. I know feats are great and all, but 2 levels of fighter MAX preferably 1. If you want more full BAB class in there, take more levels of knight phantom, or at least Eldritch Knight.

If you take Wizard instead of Warmage, you can trade your wizard feats for fighter feats thanks to unearthed arcana. Specialize in Evocation and grab some of the evoker alternate class features while you're at it and you'll be plenty blasty.

but running around with a spellbook is SOOOOOO undwarfly ;3

and I'll drop fighter alltogether

unre9istered
2010-03-09, 02:13 PM
You need a level of something with heavy armor proficiency for Rune Smith and martial weapon proficiency for Abjurant Champion.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-09, 02:14 PM
You need a level of something with heavy armor proficiency for Rune Smith and martial weapon proficiency for Abjurant Champion.

Thanks for telling me that.

I thought Runesmith gained Martial Proficiency...

unre9istered
2010-03-09, 02:15 PM
Also, where's Knight Phantom 4. Building a dwarven gish myself and want to check it out.

Human Paragon 3
2010-03-09, 02:16 PM
If it does, you're all set.

A single fighter level (or perhaps a duskblade level) will get you that armor prof.

If I'm not mistaken, Runesmith trades the spellbook away for cool dwarfly runes. You can refluff your spellbook as a master scroll of different runes if you wanted to.

unre9istered
2010-03-09, 02:18 PM
Runesmith unfortunately gives no proficiencies at all, but if you're taking just about anything (except cleric) for the armor you'll get the weapons too.
Unless you need the feat I like Warblade. More skills, hp, and cool maneuvers. What more could you want?

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-09, 02:21 PM
to unre9istered: It's out of Eberron (for the life of me, I forgot which book) It's Eldritch Knight with Class Features

to Juris: I modded it for 2 levels of Fighter. Plus, I never use martial weapons with this build (I use a Spiked Shield, Dwarven Waraxe, and Dwarven Throwing Hammers)

To All: So do i have the concept, or do I need to bring it back to the anvil and hammer out the kinks a little?

Draz74
2010-03-09, 02:21 PM
Maybe I'm too late, but ... what's wrong with simple Dwarf Duskblade?

INT-based casting, so no stat penalty regardless of subrace. Built-in Gish abilities, including armor use (eventually heavy armor). Easy to run, reasonably powerful.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-09, 02:22 PM
Runesmith unfortunately gives no proficiencies at all, but if you're taking just about anything (except cleric) for the armor you'll get the weapons too.
Unless you need the feat I like Warblade. More skills, hp, and cool maneuvers. What more could you want?

Well, considering it'd be a 2 level dip, I need to reinvent him for ToB. Maybe remove a few Warmage levels and the Knight Phantom levels for JPM, then top it off with Abjurant Champion

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-09, 02:23 PM
Maybe I'm too late, but ... what's wrong with simple Dwarf Duskblade?

INT-based casting, so no stat penalty regardless of subrace. Built-in Gish abilities, including armor use (eventually heavy armor). Easy to run, reasonably powerful.

My DM said, due to how he set up the campaign, I have to have full casting.

Perhaps...

I can run a Divine Gish????

2xMachina
2010-03-09, 02:30 PM
Divine Gish?

Cleric with DMM Persist Divine Strength. Use War/Str/whatever domains.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-09, 02:32 PM
Divine Gish?

Cleric with DMM Persist Divine Strength. Use War/Str/whatever domains.

So hypothetically, a:

Cleric of Moradin 6/Prestige Paladin 1/Knight of the Raven 5/Contemplative 1/War Priest 7
works?

Draz74
2010-03-09, 02:34 PM
So hypothetically, a:

Cleric of Moradin 6/Prestige Paladin 1/Knight of the Raven 5/Contemplative 1/War Priest 7
works?

Doesn't Warpriest lose caster levels? If so, you're better off with just more Cleric levels.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-09, 02:36 PM
Doesn't Warpriest lose caster levels? If so, you're better off with just more Cleric levels.

AFB at the current time...

However, if It is, then I need Full BAB and full divine casting

Eldariel
2010-03-09, 02:40 PM
Frankly, you could just go Wizard 5/Runesmith 1/Abjurant Champ 5/Spellsword 1/Sacred Exorcist -> for full casting gishery. MWP: Dwarven Waraxe (Dwarves treat is as a martial weapon, etc.) or just Militia; & armor proficiencies picked would be necessary evil, but it'd be doable with Martial Wizard in the mix. Learn Divine Power through Arcane Disciple and go to town. 20/20 casting, 15 BAB without Divine Power, yadda yadda yadda.

DSCrankshaw
2010-03-09, 02:42 PM
Well, it looks like you have it well in hand. Personally, I go for Fighter 1/Wizard X/Runesmith 5. Make your first level fighter and get Con as high as possible (if you can get it all the way up to 18, do so). I like some of the later abilities, and if I remember correctly, it's full casting. Anyway, it's hard to go wrong with a class that lets you cast in full plate with no spell failure with just 1 level.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-09, 02:43 PM
Frankly, you could just go Wizard 5/Runesmith 1/Abjurant Champ 5/Spellsword 1/Sacred Exorcist -> for full casting gishery. MWP: Dwarven Waraxe (Dwarves treat is as a martial weapon, etc.) or just Militia; & armor proficiencies picked would be necessary evil, but it'd be doable with Martial Wizard in the mix. Learn Divine Power through Arcane Disciple and go to town. 20/20 casting, 15 BAB without Divine Power, yadda yadda yadda.

*hisses at sacred exorcist* It burns usssssssssss....It BURNSSSSSSS

Can I at least ditch Sacred Exorcist in favor of 8 Levels of Eldritch Knight

Eldariel
2010-03-09, 02:46 PM
*hisses at sacred exorcist* It burns usssssssssss....It BURNSSSSSSS

Can I at least ditch Sacred Exorcist in favor of 8 Levels of Eldritch Knight

You need full casting?

Draz74
2010-03-09, 02:46 PM
*hisses at sacred exorcist* It burns usssssssssss....It BURNSSSSSSS

Can I at least ditch Sacred Exorcist in favor of 8 Levels of Eldritch Knight

:smallconfused: You were already talking about being a Paladin. Don't know why Sacred Exorcist would bother you if that didn't.

But I suppose Eldritch Knight is fine too, if you don't mind a lost caster level and no class features. :smalltongue:

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-09, 02:47 PM
:smallconfused: You were already talking about being a Paladin. Don't know why Sacred Exorcist would bother you if that didn't.

But I suppose Eldritch Knight is fine too, if you don't mind a lost caster level and no class features. :smalltongue:

I only had a single level dip on Prestige Paly for that Divine feat thingy

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-09, 02:50 PM
And a quick question:

Is there a way for a wizard to cast spells without the spellbook? I mean, I'm a fricken dwarf gish...Why in hells' name would I carry a fricken book into combat? I mean, I'd almost take anything in favor of the book...

Eldariel
2010-03-09, 02:54 PM
And a quick question:

Is there a way for a wizard to cast spells without the spellbook? I mean, I'm a fricken dwarf gish...Why in hells' name would I carry a fricken book into combat? I mean, I'd almost take anything in favor of the book...

1) Extradimensional storage. You aren't carrying anything into battle. You just read a book in the morning to recharge your arcane powers.
2) I guess Geometer gets some abilities to that effect. There are also rules for tattooing spells on your body in CArc, among others.


Oh, and Sacred Exorcist; you need to introduce yourself to refluffing, my friend. Sacred Exorcist or Phantom Lord? All up to you; same class, different alignment.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-09, 02:56 PM
1) Extradimensional storage. You aren't carrying anything into battle. You just read a book in the morning to recharge your arcane powers.
2) I guess Geometer gets some abilities to that effect. There are also rules for tattooing spells on your body in CArc, among others.


Oh, and Sacred Exorcist; you need to introduce yourself to refluffing, my friend. Sacred Exorcist or Phantom Lord? All up to you; same class, different alignment.

Wouldn't the version of Warmage my DM said, which is full caster with 3/4 BAB

CyMage
2010-03-09, 02:57 PM
For people suggesting Martial Wizard, you need to remember that Runesmith does require Scribe Scroll. So unless you pick it up with a regular feat, Martial Wizard might not be the way to go for once.

Also Warblade is not proficient in Heavy Armor so you'd have to use a feat as well for that.

As for carrying a book into combat... You don't. You hide the book very carefully, pull it or a copy out in the morning, prepare your spells and put it back.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-09, 02:59 PM
For people suggesting Martial Wizard, you need to remember that Runesmith does require Scribe Scroll. So unless you pick it up with a regular feat, Martial Wizard might not be the way to go for once.

Also Warblade is not proficient in Heavy Armor so you'd have to use a feat as well for that.

As for carrying a book into combat... You don't. You hide the book very carefully, pull it or a copy out in the morning, prepare your spells and put it back.

I reiterate the Full Casting version of Warmage...

Plus I take a dip or two into Fighter for Armor/Weapons

And then I burn a feat on Scribe Scroll

unre9istered
2010-03-09, 03:01 PM
My mistake on the warblade, thought it got heavy armor proficiency.
For abjurant champion the dwarven weapon proficiency won't work, you need proficiency in all martial weapons.

Too bad about Knight Phantom, my DM has banned all Eberron material, saying it doesn't exist in Faerun.

Eldariel
2010-03-09, 03:02 PM
Wouldn't the version of Warmage my DM said, which is full caster with 3/4 BAB

Warmage doesn't have any of the spells you'd normally want on a Gish so using that is pretty much gonna torpedo your entire character. Warmage's list is focused on blasting, not self-buffing and mobility which are usually Gish's biggest gains from magic.

That's why I'm suggesting Wizard-list; you can easily enough fluff around the spellbook. I mean, that's all fluff; get creative! Just because you gain power from memorizing complex formulae and understanding arcane secrets doesn't diminish your potential one bit. Indeed, you are more powerful than people born with arcane power simply because of your inherent versatility.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-09, 03:03 PM
My mistake on the warblade, thought it got heavy armor proficiency.
For abjurant champion the dwarven weapon proficiency won't work, you need proficiency in all martial weapons.

Too bad about Knight Phantom, my DM has banned all Eberron material, saying it doesn't exist in Faerun.

He can't ban the races. They are all in Monster Manual (forgot which 1)

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-09, 03:04 PM
Warmage doesn't have any of the spells you'd normally want on a Gish so using that is pretty much gonna torpedo your entire character. Warmage's list is focused on blasting, not self-buffing and mobility which are usually Gish's biggest gains from magic.

That's why I'm suggesting Wizard-list; you can easily enough fluff around the spellbook. I mean, that's all fluff; get creative! Just because you gain power from memorizing complex formulae and understanding arcane secrets doesn't diminish your potential one bit. Indeed, you are more powerful than people born with arcane power simply because of your inherent versatility.

there's a version my DM made where you lose your familair in favor of spontaneous casting using the wizard's spellcasting.

In which case, which school should I pick?

Eldariel
2010-03-09, 03:05 PM
He can't ban the races. They are all in Monster Manual (forgot which 1)

MM3. That said, it's perfectly within DM's rights to ban whatever the hell he wants. Of course, at the point when it isn't in the best interests of the game anymore, it's time to revoke his DM permits.

Eldariel
2010-03-09, 03:06 PM
there's a version my DM made where you lose your familair in favor of spontaneous casting using the wizard's spellcasting.

In which case, which school should I pick?

Transmutation is the De Facto buffing school. Illusion is a good alternative and Abjuration has few interesting ones too. Conjuration would be great for all the teleportation, on the other hand. It's a tough choice; Trans for buffs, Ill for protections, Abj for more buffs and protections or Conjuration for teleportation, offense & stuff.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-09, 03:07 PM
MM3. That said, it's perfectly within DM's rights to ban whatever the hell he wants. Of course, at the point when it isn't in the best interests of the game anymore, it's time to revoke his DM permits.

I agree. I once had a DM who actually banned the base classes

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-09, 03:08 PM
Transmutation is the De Facto buffing school. Illusion is a good alternative and Abjuration has few interesting ones too. Conjuration would be great for all the teleportation, on the other hand. It's a tough choice; Trans for buffs, Ill for protections, Abj for more buffs and protections or Conjuration for teleportation, offense & stuff.

So, I should go transmuter, ditch Enchantment and Necromancy and have a few Evocations to play with (hullo Fireball, my old friend)

Eldariel
2010-03-09, 03:11 PM
So, I should go transmuter, ditch Enchantment and Necromancy and have a few Evocations to play with (hullo Fireball, my old friend)

I'd consider keeping Enchantment around for Heroism-line buffs if you don't have a handy Bard nearby. Necromancy has some nice buffs in False Life and the like, but you won't likely miss 'em if you're performing. Decisions, decisions.

But yeah, that sounds good for a baseline.

CyMage
2010-03-09, 03:13 PM
I reiterate the Full Casting version of Warmage...

Plus I take a dip or two into Fighter for Armor/Weapons

And then I burn a feat on Scribe Scroll

I believe I was making sure the other people making suggestions about Runesmith had the right pre-requisites in mind. I have been thinking about a Runesmith character on and off for a while and have also considered the same suggestions they made.

As for the re-designed Warmage, that's going into house-rule territory and we can't help much unless we know all the information which we're only getting piece at a time.

unre9istered
2010-03-09, 03:14 PM
In this case the thing he's specifically banned is anything not mentioned somewhere as existing in faerun. So most of the races have made it back in, except for warforged. He flat out denied Renegade Mastermaker when I suggested it.

Speaking of that Renegade Mastermaker might work in your build if you're willing to give up a couple of caster levels.

Draz74
2010-03-09, 03:14 PM
I agree. I once had a DM who actually banned the base classes

... Banned Core base classes? Or all base classes, as in, the only way to level was to start out as a Monster who qualifies for a Prestige Class? :smallconfused:

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-09, 03:16 PM
For the spell-book thing, there are some interesting alternatives in the back of complete arcane. For example, you could have all of your key spells tattooed onto your body. It costs the same as a normal spell book, but your DM sure won't be sundering it. Limited pages is a drawback for that option though. There were a couple others, but that's the one that sticks out in my mind.

unre9istered
2010-03-09, 03:22 PM
Use the inside of your armor as your spell book. As a burly dwarf you should have plenty of surface area there. You have to take it off to sleep any way.
There was a dragon shard in one of the Eberron book that functioned like a Blessed Book, would using a magic rock to store your spells be cool enough?

Vizzerdrix
2010-03-09, 03:38 PM
mystic ranger + whatever the feat is that lets you prepare wizards spells.
add in some Abjurant champion and you're all set. Maybe see if you can shoe horn a few levels (3 or 4)of mage of the arcane order for versatility and top it all off with your gish of choice (eldritch knight, RKV, Swiftblade, Knight Phantom, etc...)

EDIT: as for spell books, use your body. Tattoos are a great way to prevent loosing key spells, and can take lending your spellbook to a whole new level :smallwink:

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-11, 11:15 AM
I actually considered the following:

Crusader of Moradin 6/Divine Crusader of Moradin 5/Contemplative 1/Divine Oracle 1/Prestige Paladin 1/Sacred Exorcist 2/Deepstone Setinal 4

Domains from Classes: War (DC), Force (Con)

Use a warhammer and a spiked shield, wear fullplate, and be a healer/tank

Cyclocone
2010-03-11, 11:25 AM
Needs moar Ordained Champion.

Superglucose
2010-03-11, 11:27 AM
However, if It is, then I need Full BAB and full divine casting
So, um...

Cloistered Cleric then? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinepower.htm)

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-11, 11:34 AM
Needs moar Ordained Champion.

There are no class features for an Ordained Champ of Moradin.

And y I chose the Force Domain is for two spells: Mage Armor and Arcane Armor

Cyclocone
2010-03-11, 11:38 AM
There are no class features for an Ordained Champ of Moradin.

I'd say "fluff is mutable", but Eldariel hyper-ninja'ed my by a couple of days:


you need to introduce yourself to refluffing, my friend.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-11, 11:44 AM
I'd say "fluff is mutable", but Eldariel hyper-ninja'ed my by a couple of days:

I built it so I get 20th level spells (Divine Crusader gets full casting in 10 levels and is the polar opposite of Ur Priest) and a lot of Martial maneuvers