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Tyndmyr
2010-03-09, 01:14 PM
So, I was thinking, what exactly do you do to optimize a core fighter? Start with a strength boosting race, get the biggest, most magical spiked chain you can, grab the trip feats and such...

But what interesting tricks do you have in terms of magical items and such? There's the usual buffs, cloak of resistance and so on, but the really great items(belt of battle, etc) tend to be non-core, and running out of feats tends to be an issue(Admittedly, solvable by barbarian dips, but hey).

Vizzerdrix
2010-03-09, 01:36 PM
You won't like this. Best way to optimize a fighter: get out after 4 levels. Honestly, think of fighter not as a class, but as a combat booster shot for everything else.


If you simply must has 20 levels of fighter, I hear tripping is good. take leadership too for a cleric or wizard cohort for your buffs.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-09, 01:40 PM
You won't like this. Best way to optimize a fighter: get out after 4 levels. Honestly, think of fighter not as a class, but as a combat booster shot for everything else.


If you simply must has 20 levels of fighter, I hear tripping is good. take leadership too for a cleric or wizard cohort for your buffs.

I think tyndmyr knows that, but try and still provide helpful advice if you post.
I like the Whirling enchantment on big reach weapons - eliminates the need for a crappy feat chain.

Indon
2010-03-09, 01:46 PM
Depends on what you want to optimize the Fighter to do.

In Core, the Fighter can support tripping, mounted charge tricks, normal charging tricks (which are still not bad for damage even without Shock Trooper), dual wielding (which is more reliant on exploiting weapon enchants such as Wounding), or archery, not counting more esoteric build cheese like trying to jump on your opponents.

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-09, 01:47 PM
So, I was thinking, what exactly do you do to optimize a core fighter? Start with a strength boosting race, get the biggest, most magical spiked chain you can, grab the trip feats and such...

But what interesting tricks do you have in terms of magical items and such? There's the usual buffs, cloak of resistance and so on, but the really great items(belt of battle, etc) tend to be non-core, and running out of feats tends to be an issue(Admittedly, solvable by barbarian dips, but hey).

Well as so many on here are wont to explain fighters are worthless. To them at least. Boosting your UMD is really the best way to challenge casters and makes buffing really nice from any caster class.


To play a fighter effectively one needs to pay more attention to placement on the board(AoO), readied actions, gear, tactics, etc. But the biggest one is gear.

As per tactics... I was once hit with a dimensional anchor playing a fighter and surrounded by the caster's summons. Then I shoved my Portable hole into my bag of holding thereby sending the summons to another plane and thanks to the d-anchor I stayed behind. Quick thinking like that are what is absolutely mandatory to play a fighter. Also dirty tactics like attacking spell component pouches, Ioun stones, familiars, bags of holding, belt's of many pouches, sundering wands and staves, etc. Most players only think of grappling which generally is not that effective considering other options.

Once you get into epic levels a fighter is generally better than any other fighter type due to 'epic prowess' which the fighter can/should take a lot of. You can actually have a 'base attack' that exceeds your level.

Deathslayer7
2010-03-09, 01:49 PM
Monkey grip you might want to consider. Not sure if there's a feat in PHB2 that does the same thing except without the -2 to hit. Let's you use a bigger weapon for more damage. Good with a two handed weapon along with power attack. Shock trooper is optimized but most DM's hate that feat. Shield charge isnt bad, free trip attempt with a shield if you hit.

Sir Homeslice
2010-03-09, 01:50 PM
Monkey grip

Most damage you get from Monkey Grip will not be able to beat a PA for 2 on a two-handed weapon.

Also it bears repeating. Monkey Grip is a bad feat.

lsfreak
2010-03-09, 01:57 PM
Most damage you get from Monkey Grip will not be able to beat a PA for 2 on a two-handed weapon.

Also it bears repeating. Monkey Grip is a bad feat.

It can be okay if you've got enough to support it (powerful build + expansion + fullblade made of gold/platinum, for example), but most of the time it is bad.

But it's not Core, so it hardly matters for this discussion.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-09, 02:01 PM
If UA is considered "core," than the Thug would be a nice add-on to fighter. You keep your Bonus Feats, and gain Skill Points as Rogue at a cost of armor. I mean come on! This is a perfect human class

faceroll
2010-03-09, 02:09 PM
You go both spiked chain & archery tree. I saw a core fighter 20 build that maxed dex and wisdom, used a monk's belt, and, if it won initiative, could solo a balor from range with his bow or cut it to pieces with his sword. Core archery is underrated, I feel.

I think a mounted halfling would be pretty good. The trick is versatility.
Feats (16 total at level 20):

mounted combat
ride by attack
spirited charge
mounted archery

Charge damage with lance: 3d6 + 21 (str) + 15 (weapon enchantment) + 6 (morale bonus) + 12 (power attacking for -2 THF with lance) = avg. 64 damage. Against low ac opponents, damage goes up by 6 for every 1 you power attack for. With ride-by attack, you can move past and out of full attack range, potentially out of charge range if you are on a flying mount (horseshoes of the zephyr).

PBS
Far Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Manyshot
Weapon Focus: comp long bow
Weapon Specialization
Greater Weapon Focus
Greater Weapon Specialization

Longbow damage: 1d6 + 5(str) +5(enchantment) +2(morale) +4(feats)+1(braacers) =avg 17 damage per hit.

To hit: 20 (bab) + 2 (feats) +1 (size) + 5 (enchantment) +2 (morale) +5 (dex) +2 (bracers of archery)= +37

With many shot, you can shoot 5 arrows as a standard action at +27. Against most CR20 opponents, About half the arrows will hit, for about 80 damage per two rounds. You can move and shoot, and avoid the brutality of a pit fiend or dragon's full attack routine.

With 3 feats left over. Tripping would be sub-optimal, due to your size. Picking up quick draw, iron will, and power attack rounds your two styles out nicely, while boosting your weak save.

Quick draw lets you switch between weapon styles without costing actions, and power attack adds a ton of damage to charging.

Leadership (optional)
Using leadership to pick up an intelligent mount, preferably a flyer with bard levels, would be an ideal complement to the fighter's weak points. Getting an 18th level full caster feels like cheating the spirit of this endeavor, though.

Itemization
I am assuming a wizard or bard and a cleric in the party. The wizard/bard puts up a spell or song that gives the fighter a +2 morale bonus. Otherwise, ms. fighter quaffs a potion. I didn't really work out the ability scores. I just assumed through tomes/items she's got 20 strength and 20 dex. I am fairly certain you could get both of these higher without much cost to the other ability scores.

The cleric is putting GMW & magic vestment on the fighter's equipment, and the fighter bought pearls of power to do so. Both those spells a cleric is going to prepare for himself, anyway. The fighter saves 100s of thousands of GP doing so. She gets keen put on her bow, since she makes a lot of attacks with it and the crits will add up. Getting stuff like flaming & shocking isn't really worth it at this level, since even a tiefling or aasimar will ignore about half that damage, thanks to resistances. Instead, she gets a +5 ring of protection, a ring of freedom of movement, a ring of evasion, and an assortment of useful magic items. She can also burn cash on +5 tomes & whatnot. I think if she focuses on getting dex & wisdom very high, and picks up a monk's belt, she will have a higher AC than if she wears armor.

Person_Man
2010-03-09, 02:15 PM
Mounted Combat, Ride by Attack, Spirited Charge, Power Attack (with a lance two handed), Leadership, and that's pretty much it. Or you can go with the standard Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Trip. If you count everything in the SRD as part of core, then you can combine the two thanks to Knock-Down, and improve your abilities a bit more with Hold the Line. You might also want Cleave or Standstill. But for the most part, a core Fighter is made of suck.

Draz74
2010-03-09, 02:19 PM
Core Archery can do some very nice things by having a carefully-stocked, very diverse pile of magic Arrows to choose from. (Mostly Bane arrows of different creature types.)

ericgrau
2010-03-09, 02:20 PM
So, I was thinking, what exactly do you do to optimize a core fighter? Start with a strength boosting race, get the biggest, most magical spiked chain you can, grab the trip feats and such...

But what interesting tricks do you have in terms of magical items and such? There's the usual buffs, cloak of resistance and so on, but the really great items(belt of battle, etc) tend to be non-core, and running out of feats tends to be an issue(Admittedly, solvable by barbarian dips, but hey).

Boots of speed, a source of flight and so on. Utility stuff. Other than that it's all stats.

faceroll
2010-03-09, 02:26 PM
Mounted Combat, Ride by Attack, Spirited Charge, Power Attack (with a lance two handed), Leadership, and that's pretty much it. Or you can go with the standard Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Trip. If you count everything in the SRD as part of core, then you can combine the two thanks to Knock-Down, and improve your abilities a bit more with Hold the Line. You might also want Cleave or Standstill. But for the most part, a core Fighter is made of suck.

With 16 feats available, you can go two different combat trees. No reason to go either one or the other when you can go both. Losing out on +1 to hit or +2 damage (skipping weapon focus, etc) isn't that big a deal when you can round your repertoire out to both do massive damage vs. untrippable stuff and lockdown stuff you can trip.

d13
2010-03-09, 02:30 PM
It may not be a Fighter, per se, but Saph's Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415) gets the job done pretty well.

herrhauptmann
2010-03-09, 02:59 PM
+1 to horizon tripper.
Even if you don't go tripping, the second half of horizon walker is very nice.
Flight, dim door, etc

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-09, 03:02 PM
I suggest the following:

Race: Warforged (But you may ask why? Immunities my friend. immunities)
Class: Fighter 4/Barbarian 6/Warforged Juggernaut 10
Feats: Basic Charging Feat Combo

Goal: Warforged Linebacker

herrhauptmann
2010-03-09, 03:11 PM
I suggest the following:

Race: Warforged (But you may ask why? Immunities my friend. immunities)
Class: Fighter 4/Barbarian 6/Warforged Juggernaut 10
Feats: Basic Charging Feat Combo

Goal: Warforged Linebacker

The best part of the charging tree is not core, so no leap attack/combat brute/shock trooper. Those are from the complete series. And warforged I'm pretty sure are world specific, so they wouldn't qualify as core either

d13
2010-03-09, 03:44 PM
Warforged were reprinted in the third Monster Manual, so they're not setting specific.

Not that this makes them core, anyway...

Curmudgeon
2010-03-09, 03:56 PM
I like the Whirling enchantment on big reach weapons - eliminates the need for a crappy feat chain.
Where's that? This is core Fighter optimization, and I don't remember any such magical property in core.

Tyndmyr
2010-03-09, 04:21 PM
Core Archery can do some very nice things by having a carefully-stocked, very diverse pile of magic Arrows to choose from. (Mostly Bane arrows of different creature types.)

This is actually a pretty good point. It's an effective way to get a rather large variety of magic items.

Im mildly amused that roughly 50% of the suggestions involve neither the fighter or core. UA is not core, Im afraid.

Horizon walker is an excellent idea that I've not played with much...I presume power attack and the usual tripping feats can be assumed. In core, there isn't really a huge selection of desirable feats, so there's little reason not to get them. Monkey Grip becomes useful only after you exceed your power attack limit. Without shock trooper, this is reasonably unlikely.

Probably can only pick up one of grappling or tripping if you get archery, though. Probably tripping. Seems generally more useful.

Any in core way to pick up a large race without screwing over your build?

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-09, 04:24 PM
Monkey Grip becomes useful only after you exceed your power attack limit.

Not even then. -2 to hit could be annoying. As stated, can be useful only if you find a way to stack several increase of weapon damage size (say, like heavy weapons in MoF and an expansion).

Better strongarm bracers, but a feat can't be sundered. It depends from your gamestyle I suppose.

Vizzerdrix
2010-03-09, 04:26 PM
Any in core way to pick up a large race without screwing over your build?

A high Str score. :smallcool:

Tyndmyr
2010-03-09, 04:29 PM
Not even then. -2 to hit could be annoying. As stated, can be useful only if you find a way to stack several increase of weapon damage size (say, like heavy weapons in MoF and an expansion).

Better strongarm bracers, but a feat can't be sundered. It depends from your gamestyle I suppose.

Im presuming that with enough +hit that you can happily power attack for max, this might suddenly be worthwhile. However, in core, I don't think such levels of +hit are possible. At least, not unless you accept epic levels as core, where monkey grip is mostly irrelevant anyway.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-09, 04:35 PM
Im presuming that with enough +hit that you can happily power attack for max, this might suddenly be worthwhile. However, in core, I don't think such levels of +hit are possible. At least, not unless you accept epic levels as core, where monkey grip is mostly irrelevant anyway.

I see. And after all, we are talking of monkey grip and core, so it makes no sense anyway.

Tyndmyr
2010-03-09, 04:37 PM
I see. And after all, we are talking of monkey grip and core, so it makes no sense anyway.

This is also true. Pretty much whichever rationale you choose to use, monkey grip is right out.

On the bright side, it's gotten me thinking about how you get +hit in core. Things like weapon focus are....eh, ok. Spells are better. Getting consumable happy might be useful.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-09, 04:48 PM
This is also true. Pretty much whichever rationale you choose to use, monkey grip is right out.

On the bright side, it's gotten me thinking about how you get +hit in core. Things like weapon focus are....eh, ok. Spells are better. Getting consumable happy might be useful.

Maybe you'll have to focus on magic items able to reproduce buffing (Haste) and debuffing (Fear Effects). Maybe not strictly in the core items, but buildable with core rules and core spells.

Glimbur
2010-03-09, 05:27 PM
On the bright side, it's gotten me thinking about how you get +hit in core. Things like weapon focus are....eh, ok. Spells are better. Getting consumable happy might be useful.

Flanking. Attacking from surprise can help, depending on the opponent. Aid Another. Haste, as has been mentioned. Throw a net on them, nonproficiency scarcely matters unless you want to refold it mid-combat. There are fewer options in core, but that doesn't mean you should just run at the other guy while screaming and hope it works.

AslanCross
2010-03-09, 05:30 PM
In core, you lose a lot of the weapon enhancements that will help you do the cheesiest thing you can do (Spiked Chain tripping).

You run out of feats really quickly, so ultimately you end up with a bunch of Weapon Focus feats.

I'd think the best thing you can do is multiclass to Barbarian after completing your Tripping feats so you can at least get a bigger bonus to strength.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-09, 05:37 PM
Where's that? This is core Fighter optimization, and I don't remember any such magical property in core.

Whoopsie daisy, I'm sorry, it's just been so long since I've played core, I thought in was in the DMG.:smallredface:

Rhyvurg
2010-03-09, 05:49 PM
One of the best ways I've found to optimize a full progression Fighter is to cheat, in a sense. By level 20, a Fighter has 7 feats that aren't class bonus feats. Use them for psionic feats. Greater/Psionic Weapon, Deep Impact, Up The Walls, Psionic Body, etc. Just Deep Impact alone does a lot for him, it would let him make Power/Leap Attacks that use all his BaB for bonus damage and still have a decent chance of hitting. And the class feats are still enough for the Wep. Supremacy feat tree.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-09, 06:04 PM
One of the best ways I've found to optimize a full progression Fighter is to cheat, in a sense. By level 20, a Fighter has 7 feats that aren't class bonus feats. Use them for psionic feats. Greater/Psionic Weapon, Deep Impact, Up The Walls, Psionic Body, etc. Just Deep Impact alone does a lot for him, it would let him make Power/Leap Attacks that use all his BaB for bonus damage and still have a decent chance of hitting. And the class feats are still enough for the Wep. Supremacy feat tree.

Are you spending another feat to get Wild Talent, or being a psionic race?

Volkov
2010-03-09, 06:14 PM
It's not that the fighter is bad, it's that he's underwhelming. Compared to a barbarian with heavy armor proficiency, he can't really hope to deal as much damage without some cheese. And the barbarian easily outclasses him as a tank. The fighter's main strength is his Full BAB, his d10 hit points, his relatively little MADness, and the fact that he gets lots of feats.

Rhyvurg
2010-03-09, 06:20 PM
Are you spending another feat to get Wild Talent, or being a psionic race?

Well, that's a matter of prefference. If you use a psionic race, it may have other benefits, but taking Wild Talent with a human essentially gives you the feat for free and skill points to boot. So, whichever floats your boat really.

Ecalsneerg
2010-03-09, 07:10 PM
Although psionics is debateably Core. Depends if you define Core as the DMG/PHB/MM, or the SRD.

Petrocorus
2010-03-09, 08:39 PM
Has someone tried to build something around Two-weapon fighting / Improved critical?

tyckspoon
2010-03-09, 08:47 PM
Although psionics is debateably Core. Depends if you define Core as the DMG/PHB/MM, or the SRD.

It's.. not debatable at all. Psionics is not Core. Core is Core Rulebooks I, II, III. The PHB, DMG, and MM. They actually say "D&D Core Book I/II/III" on them. The OGL material in the SRD functions similarly to Core- it's source material that anybody who plays the game can access- but it's very definitely not Core as defined by the game and the books themselves.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-09, 08:55 PM
Has someone tried to build something around Two-weapon fighting / Improved critical?

TWF is considered sub-par due lack of damage (barring extra damage from sources such as SA or skirimish and even then the concensus is that THF is far better than TWF) and focusing on crit is a very bad idea since at higher levels (and mid levels to an extent) everyone and his grandman is immune to them.

Having said that I would love to build an elf warblade/blood claw master(why did this class doesn't have full BAB I don't now)/ revenant blade...

Pluto
2010-03-09, 09:18 PM
For damage, ranged combat's nice for a number of reasons:

Full attacks are trivial.
Appropriate Bane Arrows with appropriate special materials resolve many melee woes.
Weapon Specialization sucks less with more and more reliable attacks.
THF is less good without things like Wraithstrike, Law Devotion, Deep Impact, Headless Charge, etc.
Manyshot gives movement and multiple attacks as a Standard action (so you can worry less about Wind Wall).

Even with Weapon Focus chain, Archery leaves 8 feats for, say, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Power Attack, Leadership, Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack, Spirited Charge and Skill Focus (UMD).

Crow
2010-03-09, 11:26 PM
It's.. not debatable at all. Psionics is not Core. Core is Core Rulebooks I, II, III. The PHB, DMG, and MM. They actually say "D&D Core Book I/II/III" on them. The OGL material in the SRD functions similarly to Core- it's source material that anybody who plays the game can access- but it's very definitely not Core as defined by the game and the books themselves.

SRD isn't core unless we're asking about core wizards.

Fighters get the shaft because we hate them here.


*In all seriousness, I love fighters. But some people really do hate them, and that makes me sad*

ryzouken
2010-03-09, 11:39 PM
I've found that the best way of optimizing a core fighter is to convert it to gundam before launching it from the White Base. Of course, you may not have time to perform this conversion before the Zeon launch their attack, so you may have to do a mid-air conversion. Doing so however will cost you between 10-14 seconds of combat time at minimum (more if you're not as preternaturally good a pilot as Amuro Ray) and requires a larger crew allocation than simply converting in the hangar and launching. One wonders why the White Base crew bothers converting the gundam into its constituent components after each and every battle given the superiority of the gundam over the core fighter, but ultimately this must have something to do with maintenance requirements or ordinance stowage conventions.

wait.... wrong forum. Er... combat maneuver focused fighters appear best in core. Beyond core, spring attack weapon supremacy mage slayers are pretty cool. If you have access to dragon magazine, you can build a crazy good retaliation attacker, getting 3+ Attacks of Opportunity anytime someone takes a swing at you before taking a five foot step.

Sorry, the core fighter joke was too good to pass up.

Frosty
2010-03-09, 11:44 PM
The core fighter is there so that Sayla has something to pilot?

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-10, 12:04 AM
SRD isn't core unless we're asking about core wizards.

Fighters get the shaft because we hate them here.


*In all seriousness, I love fighters. But some people really do hate them, and that makes me sad*

LOL, yep. Totally agree. But all the classes are really just choices. A little of this, a little of that. Come to think of it I don't know anyone who min/maxes one class. Except myself.

Akal Saris
2010-03-10, 12:20 AM
As others have said, there are 3 good trees for fighters in core:

1. Archery
2. Spiked chain tripping and AOO
3. Mounted charger

Combine any 2 of the above 3 and you'll have a decent enough character.

For example:

Half-Orc Fighter 20 (Or full Orc if allowed, that would be +2 Str/-2 Wis)
32 PB: Str 20, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 6.

1: Mounted Combat
1: Ride-By Attack
2: Spirited Charge
3: Combat Expertise
4: Improved Trip
6: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain
6: Power Attack
8: Combat Reflexes
9: Improved Critical (Lance)
10: Improved Critical (Spiked Chain)
12: Cleave
12: Improved Initiative
14: Blind-fight
15: Improved Disarm
16: Improved Bull Rush
18: Improved Sunder
18: Iron Will
20: Quick Draw

There. One feat tree finished by 2nd level, another feat tree finished by 8th level, with 5 different combat options by 20th (though trip and mounted charging are the best).

JaronK
2010-03-10, 12:34 AM
In core, you really should be an archer/tripper/charger. You might as well... what else would you spend feats on? I'd do what the last poster did, except I'd add in Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, and Rapid Shot, dropping Improved Disarm, Improved Bull Rush, and Improved Sunder. Also, Quickdraw should come earlier in the build, as you may lose a lot of Spiked Chains mid fight due to failed trips.

Get a Permanent Enlarge Person ASAP. And be an Orc instead of Half Orc. Orcs are still core.

Your primary weapons would be Spiked Chains and Lances. Ride the best mount you can find.

JaronK

Eclipse
2010-03-10, 01:16 AM
Some item suggestions:

Helm of Teleportation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#helmofTeleportation): Teleport 3/day - Great for getting out of sticky situations. Also available as boots if you have your heart set on another helm.

Cube of Force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#cubeofForce): Most notably, blocks magic - Laugh at the foolish wizards.

Wings of flying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#wingsofFlying): Gives flight. Fighters need flight to compete with casters, who can hurl spells from above well out of the range of even an archer.

Scarab of protection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#scarabofProtection): Prevents death effects, negative energy effects, and energy draining effects 12 times before being destroyed. Also provides SR 20 while still functioning. Doesn't take up an item slot. Great magic defense against the big things, and you might get lucky with the SR. Certainly doesn't hurt.

Gem of Seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#gemofSeeing): True seeing for 30 minutes a day, divided up as you choose.

Naturally, bonuses to whichever stats you need for your build are also something to be on the lookout for. Dex if you're going the archer route, str if you're meleeing, and con for everyone.

Obviously, which items you can get ahold of will depend on the level you're playing at and the gameworld you're in, but I would suggest these as some good ideas for a start... unless there's something else that better compliments your build for those slots.

Akal Saris
2010-03-10, 01:20 AM
For the record I agree with just about everything JaronK said (the extra combat feats vs. ranged attack feats is a toss-up in my view, either option is pretty much filler at that point). Permanent Enlarge Person is excellent for tripping, though not so great if you don't have a huge mount. Orc is better than Half-Orc if allowed (as I noted earlier).

Funnily enough, I always thought Improved Trip removed the chance for the opponent to trip you back. Quick Draw should probably come before improved critical then. And Leadership is a broken feat if it's allowed and you don't want to spend money on a good mount (or if you want a 2nd party member, etc....)

Regarding mounts, I'd get a heavy warhorse at 2nd level, and upgrade to a griffon as soon as realistically possible (affordable by 5th or 6th level if you're spending money on other things as well). Griffons are pouncing fliers that remain quite solid for the mid-levels. At high levels, I'd recommend having the party spellcaster cast phantom steed for you, or binding a nightmare, or doing whatever else they can do to keep you mobile.

As for weapons, also grab a heward's handysack, and fill it with the following:

Lance for charging, spiked chain for battlefield control, greatsword for melee damage early on and for untrippable/non-chargeable situations, a heavy flail for blunt damage and tripping, a heavy pick for coup-de-graces, a guisarme for tripping before 6th and for reach, a long sword and tower shield for tanking, a dagger for utility, an axe for utility, a composite longbow for range, javelins for range early on, and spiked armor/spiked gauntlets for grappling.

Draz74
2010-03-10, 01:44 AM
Lance for charging, spiked chain for battlefield control, greatsword for melee damage early on and for untrippable/non-chargeable situations, a heavy flail for blunt damage and tripping, a heavy pick for coup-de-graces, a guisarme for tripping before 6th and for reach, a long sword and tower shield for tanking, a dagger for utility, an axe for utility, a composite longbow for range, javelins for range early on, and spiked armor/spiked gauntlets for grappling.

Yo dawg, we heard u lik weppunz with ur weppunz ...

faceroll
2010-03-10, 02:37 AM
As Akal points out, tower shield are useful. Being able to break LoS is REALLY helpful. Every party should carry tower shields from level one, regardless of anyone's proficiency.


Flanking. Attacking from surprise can help, depending on the opponent. Aid Another. Haste, as has been mentioned. Throw a net on them, nonproficiency scarcely matters unless you want to refold it mid-combat. There are fewer options in core, but that doesn't mean you should just run at the other guy while screaming and hope it works.

Attacking from higher ground is another nice +1, and is quite easy to get when everyone's flying. The majority of flying creatures will have average or below maneuverability, to you can always stay above them.


It's not that the fighter is bad, it's that he's underwhelming. Compared to a barbarian with heavy armor proficiency, he can't really hope to deal as much damage without some cheese. And the barbarian easily outclasses him as a tank. The fighter's main strength is his Full BAB, his d10 hit points, his relatively little MADness, and the fact that he gets lots of feats.

But a barbarian just hits stuff. If the barbarian can't get close enough to hit it, he's not doing much.


TWF is considered sub-par due lack of damage (barring extra damage from sources such as SA or skirimish and even then the concensus is that THF is far better than TWF) and focusing on crit is a very bad idea since at higher levels (and mid levels to an extent) everyone and his grandman is immune to them.

Having said that I would love to build an elf warblade/blood claw master(why did this class doesn't have full BAB I don't now)/ revenant blade...

Well, TWF with weapon spec wouldn't be HORRIBLE. At level 20, compared to straight rogue, your attacks are going to be hitting more than 25% more often thanks to +5 BAB and weapon focus/greater weapon focus. You will also have one extra attack. Unfortunately, power attack isn't a very efficient way to boost damage. You'll have the feat to burn on ewp: bastard sword, though.

Killer Angel
2010-03-10, 03:01 AM
Some item suggestions:
Helm of Teleportation
Cube of Force
Wings of flying
Scarab of protection
Gem of Seeing

Other items suggestion:

I like boots of flying more than boots of speed: fly is better than haste, and leave free the slot for the mantle: cape of the mountebank?

If you don't go for a charger (which must count on a single powerful hit), I recommend the ring of blinking: you'll lose 20% of your attacks, but in exchange you gain a lot: not only you'll be hit considerably less, but gain useful protection Vs area attacks, the ability to pass through doors, barriers, etc., escaping from grapple, gain bonus to to hit (yeah more PA)

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-10, 03:09 AM
As Akal points out, tower shield are useful. Being able to break LoS is REALLY helpful. Every party should carry tower shields from level one, regardless of anyone's proficiency.
Tower shields are absolutely horrible. -10 armor check penalty in exchange for a +4 to AC, and the full cover only works against other fighters, really. Anyone else can target you by targeting your shield.

Killer Angel
2010-03-10, 03:11 AM
Although psionics is debateably Core. Depends if you define Core as the DMG/PHB/MM, or the SRD.

Could we stay with the definitions in our official stickyed thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18512)?

In this way, Core = PhB, DMG, MM1, PsiHB, XPH

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-10, 03:17 AM
Could we stay with the definitions in our official stickyed thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18512)?

In this way, Core = PhB, DMG, MM1, PsiHB, XPHThe Psionics Handbook should NEVER be Core, even in 3.0. Play with the XPH instead (yes, it's more compatible with 3.0 than the PsiHB was).

faceroll
2010-03-10, 03:20 AM
Tower shields are absolutely horrible. -10 armor check penalty in exchange for a +4 to AC, and the full cover only works against other fighters, really. Anyone else can target you by targeting your shield.

If your DM is fond of throwing encounters of 100% wizards at you, yeah, they won't work. But if he uses even one of the many monsters in the monster manual that is a "fighter", they help big time. It's a move action to get out instance protection vs. anything that's not a spell. Which is quite a lot. Can you name anything else in core that takes only a move action, is virtually free, and offers the same degree of protection?

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-10, 03:23 AM
If your DM is fond of throwing encounters of 100% wizards at you, yeah, they won't work. But if he uses even one of the many monsters in the monster manual that is a "fighter", they help big time. It's a move action to get out instance protection vs. anything that's not a spell. Which is quite a lot. Can you name anything else in core that takes only a move action, is virtually free, and offers the same degree of protection?Moving behind a rock/pillar/phallic statue?

faceroll
2010-03-10, 03:38 AM
Moving behind a rock/pillar/phallic statue?

Sometimes they're trapped, for hilarious results. Portable cover is spectacular. It makes retreating and regrouping, flanking, maneuvering, virtually all combat movement, really safe. At higher levels, it's far less effective, granted, but for the first 3 levels, it's almost godmode, and stays pretty good for the next 10. By then, WBL gets you neat tricks, and dragon breath/mindblasts pew pew you.

Petrocorus
2010-03-10, 06:59 AM
TWF is considered sub-par due lack of damage (barring extra damage from sources such as SA or skirimish and even then the concensus is that THF is far better than TWF) and focusing on crit is a very bad idea since at higher levels (and mid levels to an extent) everyone and his grandman is immune to them.

Having said that I would love to build an elf warblade/blood claw master(why did this class doesn't have full BAB I don't now)/ revenant blade...

What about at mid-low lvl, something like 6-8? TWF + Oversized TWF + improved critical wouldn't do something?

And what if we try to build this as a thematic build, for example, for building a wood elf wardancer from Warhammer old world?

Eldariel
2010-03-10, 07:16 AM
Other items suggestion:

I like boots of flying more than boots of speed: fly is better than haste, and leave free the slot for the mantle: cape of the mountebank?

Boots of Speed are better though; Haste stacks for fly-speed giving you a respectable 90' Fly and the extra attack and to hit and AC are all very, very strong for a Fighter. Wings of Flying are also online 24/7 saving you an action in the beginning of each fight (Winged Boots are Command-activated, unfortunately; Boots of Speed are a free action activation on the other hand).

Of course, this doesn't help the fact that by Core-rules, Wings of Flying are mutually exclusive with Cloak of Resistance which is somewhat obligatory for a Fighter and his poor saves. Also, Wings of Flying are damn expensive. Still, I definitely maintain that Boots of Speed are something you should have even on level 20. It's just such a huge difference to gain an extra attack at highest attack bonus, and increasing your Fly-speed to such that you actually have some say in aerial combat is also equally key (as is increasing your charge distance to 60' on the ground without Wings of Flying).



What about at mid-low lvl, something like 6-8? TWF + Oversized TWF + improved critical wouldn't do something?

And what if we try to build this as a thematic build, for example, for building a wood elf wardancer from Warhammer old world?

In Core, no. You still fall behind THF even on full attacks and when you don't full attack, your entire feat tree is dead. Oh, and you need higher stats and have -2 on all attacks and have spent 2 extra feats the two-hander has spent on increasing his damage to just be proficient in this crap and...well, I'm sure you get the point. If you wanted a Wardance, well:
1) Fighter is probably the wrong base class anyways.
2) You want out-of-Core sources. With Core+Completes, Dervish accomplishes this. With ToB, Warblade and Swordsage can both do this, depending on whether you want a magical hint in there (á la Desert Tempest) or not.

Really, that's one of the biggest strikes against all-Core games IMHO; so many concepts really want non-Core sources to realize.



EDIT: Oh yeah, Core Fighter? I'm assuming we have to go Fighter 20? I'd pick Weapon Focus-line; it's more powerful than Yet Another Pile of Distractions. After Tripping, Mounted Charging and Archery, you're pretty much set feat-wise so you can start picking up WF-line and improve your Lance or Spiked Chain.


Equipment gets a bit hairy as you have so many overlapping needs. You want the basic numeric buffs, of course, to match up to game challenges. Then you want flight, teleportation & some consumables like Potions and Rod of Cancellation (never leave home without one).

Oh, and a highly magical stick with which to hit enemies. Preferably the Spiked Chain as your Lance doesn't really care about bonuses other than +X, which comes just fine from Greater Magic Weapon; they aren't multiplied on a Charge so they're rather trivial. Chain, on the other hand, does a lot of hitting and thus makes good use of the bonuses.

Should go without saying to get a Luckblade and Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone, of course. Iridescent Spindle Ioun Stone is nice too.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-10, 07:20 AM
Are you sure you cannot relocate slots in core?

Eldariel
2010-03-10, 07:23 AM
Are you sure you cannot relocate slots in core?

Well, you "can"; or the DM is suggested to do such at any rate. But the rules support for that is flimsy at best. So purely by RAW, the reslots get hairy. Tho Vest of Resistance honestly solves so much.

greenknight
2010-03-10, 07:29 AM
You go both spiked chain & archery tree. I saw a core fighter 20 build that maxed dex and wisdom, used a monk's belt, and, if it won initiative, could solo a balor from range with his bow or cut it to pieces with his sword. Core archery is underrated, I feel.

Ah - Sir Giacomo's build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2243796&postcount=388). The guy gets a lot of flack around here, but credit where it's due, he does know how to think outside the box and comes up with some interesting builds.

The real problem with the fighter isn't that it can't do damage in combat (it can), it's that fighters generally aren't so good when it comes to other things. So if you have the choice between having a Fighter in the party (who is good at physical combat) and having a Druid or Cleric (both of whom can also be good at physical combat, and good at many other things as well), the Fighter loses out simply by not being good enough at other stuff.

Akal Saris
2010-03-10, 12:49 PM
Here's another build, this one is two-weapon fighting and archery based. Basically focus on using a composite longbow, but if the situation calls for it (protection from arrows, windwall, high DR, DR/Piercing but not slashing, no room to maneuver, out of arrows, cover...), then it can also do the two-weapon fighting thing.

It's not that optimized because two-weapon fighting is generally weaker than just using a 2-handed weapon, but I know a lot of people enjoy the style anyhow. If the DM houserules quick draw to allow you to stow your items as a free action, this build is slightly better, since I hate the idea of dropping my +4 Bow to draw my short swords or whatever.

Wild Elf Fighter 20
32 PB: Str 16, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 6, Wis 8, Cha 8.

1: Point Blank Shot
1: Precise Shot
2: Rapid Shot
3: Quick Draw
4: Two-weapon fighting
6: Improved two-weapon fighting
6: Weapon finesse
8: Improved Critical (Composite longbow)
9: Improved Critical (Short sword)
10: Power Attack
12: Improved Precise Shot
12: Greater two-weapon fighting
14: Weapon focus (Composite longbow)
15: Weapon specialization (Composite longbow)
16: Greater weapon focus (Composite longbow)
18: Greater weapon specialization (Composite longbow)
18: Iron Will
20: Improved Initiative

And because we're mixing styles, here's an archer/mounted combat character. Not really as synergistic as the mounted combat/spiked chain build, but again it has the versatility of changing styles depending on what's more appropriate.

Wild Elf Fighter 20
32 PB: Str 18, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 8.

1: Point Blank Shot
1: Precise Shot
2: Mounted Combat
3: Ride-by Attack
4: Spirited Charge
6: Quick Draw
6: Rapid Shot
8: Improved Critical (Composite longbow)
9: Mounted Archery
10: Power Attack
12: Improved Precise Shot
12: Improved Critical (Lance)
14: Weapon focus (Composite longbow or lance)
15: Weapon specialization (Composite longbow or lance)
16: Greater weapon focus (Composite longbow or lance)
18: Greater weapon specialization (Composite longbow or lance)
18: Iron Will
20: Improved Initiative