An Owlbears Lunch

[Nidogg]

Recenly My GM or DM, whatever threw me (a halfling cleric of wee jass 1st lvl, waiting to become 2nd in druid) and my freinds a lvl2 sorceror , a Lvl2 rouge and a 1st lvl fighterTo an owlbear. We got slaughtered. Should we? Apparently we SHOULD be able to take it (according to him) but we got wiped, except for the sorceror who fled. Please give some ideas on weather this should have happened.

[ericgrau]

It's only a CR 4 creature. It should have been very difficult for a level 1-2 party but not TPK. The problem is you only have 1 fighter/paladin/barbarian and he's 1st level. None of your caster's save spells do much of anything to it at this level, which leaves them to either do some minor damage with a spell or swing at it like the fighter except much worse. As for the piece of makeup in your party, he's too fragile to get more than 1 swing at it even though his damage might be ok.

[Saph]

Owlbear is CR 4. Your party is two ECL 1s, and two ECL 2s, average party level 1.5.

So the party wiping is below par but still not particularly surprising. An encounter 2.5 levels above your APL is expected to kill off one or two PCs and has the potential for a TPK. A very good 1st-2nd level party would be able to beat it without expecting any deaths, but an average party wouldn't.

[AtwasAwamps]

Your DM is wrong. Yes, with very very clever tactics and impressive optimization at level 1, it could have happened. However, I wouldn't expect it!

[ericgrau]

Eh 4 fighters could have done it easily w/o any optimization, or maybe if his party fighter and cleric were the level 2 guys and the other two were level 1 they would have stood a chance. But yeah, low level casters and a skillmonkey would take a lot of planning to pull it off.

My suggestion is to tell the DM you aren't that good yet and he should give you easier challenges. Or play simpler classes like fighters or barbarians until you become better at spells or until you reach higher levels.

[Kaiyanwang]

Terrain matters. Did the DM put you in the condition to take him by surprise, or at leats have a chance, or did he stroke first?

Luck matters, more at low level. Did you missed a lot, did he critted a a lot?

[Nidogg]

He gave the FREAKING OWLBEAR a chance to surprise. in a temperate forest. No special events (crits, fumbles ect). I asked him how he structured his encounters, he said, "whatever I feel like" hmmmmmm....

[Kaiyanwang]

He gave the FREAKING OWLBEAR a chance to surprise. in a temperate forest. No special events (crits, fumbles ect). I asked him how he structured his encounters, he said, "whatever I feel like" hmmmmmm....

Did you have spot or listen check, or it is the good old "no, you definitively didn't see the Giant Tribe approaching?"

[Thefurmonger]

Ill go against the majority here and agree with the DM. a LVL 1/2 party should be able to take a CR 4 most of the time.

Now mind you I assume that the characters are fairly well built but really I would give over a 50/50 shot.

[Starbuck_II]

What spells does Sorc know?
Color Spray can Stun a Owl Bear 1 rd (5HD).

What did you meaning training to be a Druid?

[Kaiyanwang]

Ill go against the majority here and agree with the DM. a LVL 1/2 party should be able to take a CR 4 most of the time.

Now mind you I assume that the characters are fairly well built but really I would give over a 50/50 shot.

Nobody said "ZOMG it's an impossible challenge". But, you see, if a moster higher in CR starts the fight in advantage, ok, PCs can win anyway, but TPK is not impossible and one cannot be SO surprised.

[Thefurmonger]

I totally agree, I can see it happening.

But the OP asked if they "Should" have been able to take it. my vote is for yes.

Only the OP and his DM know how well built the group was. If they were all out of core, 28 PB and built like the characters in the PHB then no, no they should not have been able to take it.

But assuming a well built party with the Sorc having the good spells should have had a really good shot.

[Rainbownaga]

Did you say that you were a halfling multiclassing druid and cleric? Probably just as well you got killed off early (unless there was some ultimate build you were going for).

[Sinfire Titan]

Did no one prepare Grease when it happened? Because that makes encounters so much easier.

As does Color Spray, but I believe the Owlbear is just barely safe from that spell.

[Starbuck_II]

Nothing is Safe from Color spray: you are thinking of Sleep.
Color Spray is the Cthulhu of 1st level spells. If it breaks your sanity (will save): you lose.

[Saph]

Colour Spray would stun it for a round, but not much else. Grease would knock it down . . . maybe.

In either case, casting and missing with either spell would leave you closer than you'd really want to be.

A highly optimised party could do it fairly safely. I built an ECL 2 combat team for the Test of Might challenges a while back that I'd be confident of beating an owlbear with. A normal party would probably get mauled, though - the first character to be hit and grappled would be a bloody mess by the time the rest of the party managed to take the thing down.

[Thefurmonger]

To The OP

What was the party makeup? you say cleric? what kind? DMM monster, or healbot

What did the Sorc DO? as mentioned Grease, Color spray and sleep are just stupid good.

Fighter, Sword and Board (God I hope not), or Chain tripper/controler?

More info pls.

[Kaiyanwang]

Fighter, Sword and Board (God I hope not), or Chain tripper/controler?

More info pls.

1st level. Even if you started it, you cannot have this, that or that build.. it's more a matter of tactics IMHO.

[AslanCross]

Looking at the numbers: The Owlbear gets two attacks at an average of 8 damage. That will most likely kill a party of this level.

You could probably kill it with tactics, but if it surprised you and you weren't able to outsmart it, it would definitely wipe you out.

The first level fighter, assuming he has 18 strength and Weapon Focus, would have a +6 attack bonus and would hit the owlbear on a roll of 9 or higher. The owlbear has 52 HP. If the fighter were wielding a greatsword he would be able to kill the owlbear, but is likely to take fatal damage very quickly.

Nidogg, do you remember how it happened, exactly?

[Mystic Muse]

An owlbear's lunch is the chewy elven center of a Vaarsuvious pop.:smallbiggrin:

[Bibliomancer]

Surprise is easily worth 2 EL, or more. I'm in a rogue-centric party (I'm the arcane support) in RHoD that hasn't taken a casualty yet despite fighting 2 battles of EL = APL + 6, because we used invisibility to gain SA.

If the owlbear was able to sneak up on you (which is rather surprising, and if the DM didn't give you a chance to spot or hear it he's probably doing something wrong), a TPK is hardly surprising, given the circumstances.

[Vizzerdrix]

1st level. Even if you started it, you cannot have this, that or that build.. it's more a matter of tactics IMHO.

This. this this this this this this THIS!

Too often I've seen groups fall from a lack of tactics than anything else.

Caltrops, grease, tfb, nets and the like to hold down a threat. Reach weapons and ranged to soften up the target. Then send in the melee to hit it hard and fast. Fight as a team, not as a group of individuals.

[Bibliomancer]

This. this this this this this this THIS!

Too often I've seen groups fall from a lack of tactics than anything else.

Caltrops, grease, tfb, nets and the like to hold down a threat. Reach weapons and ranged to soften up the target. Then send in the melee to hit it hard and fast. Fight as a team, not as a group of individuals.

Very true. If you have a rogue in the party, make sure that you set up a sneak attack sandwich, preferably with multiple people standing by to act as flankers if the first tank drops.

However, often a direct surprise attack is more effective than using caltrops at the expense of revealing your presence, if you have a way to take the enemy by surprise.

[ericgrau]

To The OP

What was the party makeup? you say cleric? what kind? DMM monster, or healbot

What did the Sorc DO? as mentioned Grease, Color spray and sleep are just stupid good.

Fighter, Sword and Board (God I hope not), or Chain tripper/controler?

More info pls.

You want a 1st level DMM cleric? Everyone mentioned that grease, color spray and sleep fail. Grease and color spray can be negated in only 1 round even if they do land. Sleep straightup fails against 5 HD. 4 SaB fighters would actually laugh at the easy win in this particular scenario. Besides the owlbear having a better trip mod than a fighter with improved trip, a chain tripper takes 3 feats. Maybe if he's human.


This. this this this this this this THIS!

Too often I've seen groups fall from a lack of tactics than anything else.

Caltrops, grease, tfb, nets and the like to hold down a threat. Reach weapons and ranged to soften up the target. Then send in the melee to hit it hard and fast. Fight as a team, not as a group of individuals.
Where does your group play D&D and how can I join? :smallbiggrin:

[Thefurmonger]

You want a 1st level DMM cleric? Everyone mentioned that grease, color spray and sleep fail. Grease and color spray can be negated in only 1 round even if they do land. Sleep straightup fails against 5 HD. 4 SaB fighters would actually laugh at the easy win in this particular scenario. Besides the owlbear having a better trip mod than a fighter with improved trip, a chain tripper takes 3 feats. Maybe if he's human.


Yes, as a human with the right domains you can have DMM at 1st (Most groups I have been in uses Flaws, if his doesnt then no you can't)

The feat "Potent Enchantment" from Dragon Mag raises the HD cap on spells by +3 for enchantments, thus makeing Sleep a good option, Again if no dragon then there you go.

As for a Tripper. At 1st you as a fighter have 3 feats (Flaws again), 4 if Human. Assuming best case scenerio, A water Orc with a 22 Str base, 24 when enlarged. (Enlarged by the Sorc) Can Easily Lock down the Owlbear.

Again, these are Best case scenerio. If not optimised/Cheesed this much it can get rough.

This is why I asked the OP how the group was made.

[Starbuck_II]

You want a 1st level DMM cleric? Everyone mentioned that grease, color spray and sleep fail. Grease and color spray can be negated in only 1 round even if they do land.


You mean end not negated. 1 rd where you can freely sneak attack a foe (lose Dexs from stun) is better than most spells (granted grease is similar but they can still attack with grease.

You use your action so everyone can curb stomp the thing.

[Bibliomancer]

You mean end not negated. 1 rd where you can freely sneak attack a foe (lose Dexs from stun) is better than most spells (granted grease is similar but they can still attack with grease.

You use your action so everyone can curb stomp the thing.

Given that you can cast 3 1st level spells per day as a focused specialist wizard (4 if you're a grey elf), and owlbear has a large space, you could probably incapacitate it for a few rounds, assuming it fails the will saves. That might give a low level party a fighting chance.

[Vizzerdrix]

Where does your group play D&D and how can I join? :smallbiggrin:

You are mistaken good sir. The group I used to play with did the opposite of what I said should be done. They constantly failed to work with any type of cohesion. Rogues got no flanking. Casters got no cover. Plans and tactics went ignored. Heck, I'd have to fight just to get them to hold still long enough to heal up between fights. In retrospect I felt more like a babysitter than a player. :smallfrown:

[ericgrau]

You mean end not negated. 1 rd where you can freely sneak attack a foe (lose Dexs from stun) is better than most spells (granted grease is similar but they can still attack with grease.

You use your action so everyone can curb stomp the thing.
1 party member can for an underwhelming +1d6 damage with little or no strength bonus... if he hits (50% chance, 35% without weapon finesse at level 1 house rule). The rest of the party benefits from its -1 AC. After that the owlbear drops the rogue with 1 full attack. Or he charges the wizard/sorcerer who got within 15 feet to cast color spray and drops him with 1 single attack. Or both the wizard and rogue spend their full turns after the stun retreating in which case he's still within charge range of the rogue while they both wasted their turns.

The owlbear has the AC and HP to continue for rounds to come after this underwhelming round, while the rogue and sorcerer/wizard do not. Really the fighter and cleric were the party's best shot in such a low level group and they were the level 1 guys in the OP's party. Besides being far more survivable, they each do decent damage regardless of strategy, not one helping the other merely to hit "almost par".

[sofawall]

If the owlbear gets the surprise round and the first initiative, someone is going down. Three attacks for ~6 each is going to mess with a level 1 party. Especially with that grapple mod. Even the wizard grappler would have a bit of trouble with one of those at level 1.

[Starbuck_II]

1 party member can for an underwhelming +1d6 damage with little or no strength bonus... if he hits (50% chance, 35% without weapon finesse at level 1 house rule). The rest of the party benefits from its -1 AC. After that the owlbear drops the rogue with 1 full attack. Or he charges the wizard/sorcerer who got within 15 feet to cast color spray and drops him with 1 single attack. Or both the wizard and rogue spend their full turns after the stun retreating in which case he's still within charge range of the rogue while they both wasted their turns.

The owlbear has the AC and HP to continue for rounds to come after this underwhelming round, while the rogue and sorcerer/wizard do not. Really the fighter and cleric were the party's best shot in such a low level group and they were the level 1 guys in the OP's party. Besides being far more survivable, they each do decent damage regardless of strategy, not one helping the other merely to hit "almost par".

With extreme planning and not an ambush scenario like the OP described, I could see 1 sorcerer + 3 fighters (or clerics or paladins or barbarians) work with color spray. The fighters engage it first so that he must eat 3 AoOs to reach the sorcerer. Then the sorcerer color sprays over and over again until it either eats them or gets pissed and charges the sorc in spit of AoOs. Then the sorc dies but at least he gave the fighters 3 more attacks in the process.

Stun ends just before Sorcerors turn so you it doesn't get a turn to attack till after the Sorceror's second spell.

[Mastikator]

Can we confirm that the sorcerer even have color spray? If not then it's moot.

[ericgrau]

Stun ends just before Sorcerors turn so you it doesn't get a turn to attack till after the Sorceror's second spell.

Ya... that's in there.

A caster could get in maybe 2-3 color sprays (or w/e spell he has ready) if he stands there and accepts his immenant death. Which isn't bad, but only if the rest of the party has some decent damage and can survive after his death. Otherwise it's merely delaying the inevitable. The rogue OTOH is worse than a real martial class even with his sneak attack damage... and he's fragile.

And yeah, the preceding was assuming color spray. If it was grease then it does little more than make the rogue suck a little less compared to the real martial classes and then the party is more screwed. Heck, unlike the rogue, a magic missile would actually hit and thus probably do more damage. But it'd still be pretty meh, as would most spells.

[Rezby]

Can we confirm that the sorcerer even have color spray? If not then it's moot.

Sorcerers have access to all the same arcane spells wizards know.

Unless you mean the sorcerer PC from OP's party.

[Slayn82]

Well, i played last weekend with my friends, with a party of 1 fighter, 1 ranger, 1 factotum, 1 druid and 1 sorcerer. All lvl 1, vs. an Owlbear that also surprised us. And the druid and the sorcerer had no spells remaining and didnt enter the battle.

We won, thanks to the fighter going over it with good AC (20), defensive fighting and moving around to not have to contend with multiple attacks. While the ranger and the factotum attacked with arrows. After 3 turns it was over. The fighter was hurt, but still on positives. So, yes, its doable.

[Lapak]

Ya... that's in there.

A caster could get in maybe 2-3 color sprays (or w/e spell he has ready) if he stands there and accepts his immenant death. Even that is iffy. Assuming the caster has a +4 modifier, it still makes its save on a 13 or better. Yes, it's likely to fail one save, but only 36% likely to fail two in a row. There's just not enough oomph in terms of crowd control spells at level 1 to stop a CR4 threat.

[awa]

ninja
that assumes that the owl bear fails every save if he makes one save the sorcer is in trouble, at level 2 he does not have the hit points to survive many attacks from a bruiser like the owl bear particularly if he doesn't have any defensive spells up becuase he was saving the slots for color spray.
An that's assuming he even has color spray sorcorers don't get all that many spells known

[tyckspoon]

Even that is iffy. Assuming the caster has a +4 modifier, it still makes its save on a 13 or better. Yes, it's likely to fail one save, but only 36% likely to fail two in a row. There's just not enough oomph in terms of crowd control spells at level 1 to stop a CR4 threat.

Grease or Entangle and then run the frak away. If you're set on trying to actually fight the thing, then yeah, I agree. Might be better off trying a Ray of Enfeeblement to de-fang it a little.


An that's assuming he even has color spray sorcorers don't get all that many spells known

It's a staggeringly effective low-level spell that can be readily traded out, guilt-free, for something with more general utility later on. Probably one of the first spells I would choose for a Sorcerer, especially if you have a limited source pool to comb through.

[ericgrau]

Even that is iffy. Assuming the caster has a +4 modifier, it still makes its save on a 13 or better. Yes, it's likely to fail one save, but only 36% likely to fail two in a row. There's just not enough oomph in terms of crowd control spells at level 1 to stop a CR4 threat.

Yeah, I meant he might be able to cast 2 color sprays, maybe 3. Landing them is another story. Probably something like "Oh frack the 2nd one didn't land! He's coming right for me!! Blaaarrgh."

As for grease and running away, the problem is that grease does almost nothing to him, except make the rogue realize that he's still less effective than a fighter (or barbarian/etc.). Like I said magic missile is better, and that's not saying much.

Sofawall's party strategy sounds nice, though I wonder how the fighter avoided AoO's from moving (or did he simply eat them?) and why the owlbear didn't then switch targets. Normally the fighter's and allies' AoO's makes that worth it for the PCs, but not at at -4 to hit and the rest of the party using ranged attacks. Hmm, avoidng full attacks could be a decent application of the mobility feat.

[TheMadLinguist]

Grease + iaijutsu factotum could work.

[awa]

couldn't the owl bear just crawl out of the greased area?
Also it has a decent reflex save

[Stubbed Tongue]

Let's do the math shall we people...+1 (Dex) -4(size)= a hide modifier of -3.
It seems the DM might have made a mistake on this one by having it surprise unless of course it was legit. Just seems wrong.

Don't forget low level parties can extend their lives much longer using 'total defense' and 'fighting defensively'.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I think it's pretty clear from the OP that this is not a heavily optimized group. They may or may not be at a basic level of optimization picking decent feats but, I think we can assume they aren't water orc gattling chain trippers in training. I also think it's safe to assume that nobody has the perfect feat from Dragon Magazine which most groups don't aloow or allow only on a ask for one thing at a time basis.

So let's look at a likely scenario.

Level one fighter since he will most likely not be a tripper capable of tripping this beast lets give him a spear he can set against a charge. Likely most of his feats are taken up with prereqs that will have little effect on this battle so benefit of the doubt he has weapon focus and toughness and something that won't effect the outcome.

*Warning Big wall'o text with mathmatical break down of 5 rounds of combat.*

So fighter
15 AC 16 hp +5 to hit and does 1d8+4 damage avg 8.5
(assuming 16 str 16 con 12 dex)

rogue probably has weapon focus (since he can't have finesse and has 0 BAB and mediocre str) and a ranged feat lets say point blank shot
17 AC12 hp +3 hit rapier 1d6+1(1d6 SA) avg 4.5(8) short bow +4 hit 1d6(1d6 SA) avg 3.5(7)
(assuming 16 dex, 12 str, 12 con

Halfling Cleric
19 AC 10 hp +0 hit 1d6+0 damage avg
(assuming 14 dex, 10 str, 14 con)

Sorceror
16 AC 12 Hp +1 hit 1d6+0
(assuming 14 dex, 14 con, 10 str , 16 cha)
spells known mage armor and color spray

vs owlbear
52 hp
AC 15
+9/+9/+4 hit damage 1d6+5/1d6+5/1d8+2 avg 8.5/8.5/6.5
Will save +2 improved grab

Alright it’s bull for the owl bear to surprise the party unless they were arguing loudly or something for a huge circumstance penalty to listen and spot the owl bear has good senses to though so a straight initiative roll is fair. Initiative goes.

Rouge
Halfling Cleric
Sorceror
Fighter
Owlbear

The rouge fires his short bow + 4 hit not within 30 ft 45% chance to hit times 3.5 avg damage =1.6
Cleric casts Bless
Sorceror readies color spray
Fighter moves to block charge agaist rogue and sets spear against charge.
Owlbear charges Fighter
Fighter attacks with spear for double dagage +5 hit vs. AC 13(charging) 65% chance to hit times avd damage 16 = 10.4
Sorceror casts color spray DC 14 vs. +2 Will 60% chance of working will save fails.

Owlbear has taken 12 damage

Round 2

Rogue Point blank shot SA +5 hit vs. AC 12(charging denied dex) 70% hit times 8 avg damage 5.6
Cleric charges to a corner where he could 5 ft step back to heal the fighter and attacks +2 hit vs. AC 12 50% chance to hit times 3.5 avg damage=1.8
Owlbear dazed
Sorcerer casts color spray DC 14 vs. +2 will sure it succeeds again
Fighter attacks +6 hit vs. AC 14 60% X 8.5 = 5.1


Owlbear has taken 24.5 damage

Round 3

Rogue moves into flank +6hit vs. 14 AC 60% X 8 =4.8
Cleric attacks +1 vs. AC 14 35% X 3.5 = 1.2
Owlbear dazed
Sorcerer casts color spray DC 14 vs. +2 will owl bear makes it’s save
Fighter +8 hit vs. AC 15 65% X 8.5 =5.3

Owlbear has taken 36

Round 4

Rouge Flanking SA +6 hit vs. AC 15 55% X 8 =4.4
Cleric +1 hit vs. AC 15 30% X 3.5 =1.1
OwlBear Full Attack on fighter +9 vs. AC 15 70% X 8.5 = 6 /+9 vs. AC 15 70% X 8.5 = 6/+4 vs. AC 15 45% X 6.5 = 3
Sorceror casts his last lvl 1 spell (mage armor was precast) color spray DC 14 vs. +2 will save owl bear makes his save again (with a 40% chance to make each save the odds are in favor of 2 passes 2 fails though the odds of 1 pass three fails isn’t bad either, I’m trying to balance things by giving the owl bear his two passes which is slightly in his favor while making the passes occur after the fails giving the party a big advantage)
Fighter attacks +6 hit vs. AC 15 55% X 8.5 = 4.7

Owlbear has taken 46.2
Fighter is at 1 hp a fighter without toughness or with a 14 con would be in negatives and would not have made it’s last attack.

Round 5

Rogue flanking SA +6 hit vs. AC 15 55% X 8 =4.4
Cleric 5ft step casts clw on fighter for 5.5
Owlbear full attack +9 vs. AC 15 70%X 8.5 = 6/+9 vs. AC 15 70%X 8.5 = 6 fighter is at negative 5.5 +4 vs. AC 10 70% X 6.5=4.6 fighter is dead

At this point this get kinda messy the bugbear has only 1.4 hp left an avg attack form the rouge would kill it though if it missed a second PC death would be a strong possibility. Also if that fighter had 1 less hp he would have gone unconscious to the first full attack and would have lost an attack and then provoked an AoO when he got up after the cleric healed him which could very easily have taken him down again his claw damage his stronger than a 1st lvl cleric’s clw. This was definatly a very excessive fight something this tough should have some build up or plot around while an owl bear is a classic random encounter and it seems to have been used as such in this game.

[Nidogg]

Wow. thanks guys having awsered my question and given great advice on how to kick owlbear next time. To awnser qu's
No sorceror did not know colour spray.
"Training to be a druid" we encountered the owlbear on a side q to find a druid circle to give me druid training. (I made the wrong 1st lvl choice)
It was a straight inititive Dm gave us spot and listen to spot owlbear which we passed.

[Starbuck_II]

Round 3

Rogue moves into flank +6hit vs. 14 AC 60% X 8 =4.8
Cleric attacks +1 vs. AC 14 35% X 3.5 = 1.2
Owlbear dazed
Sorcerer casts color spray DC 14 vs. +2 will owl bear makes it’s save
Fighter +8 hit vs. AC 15 65% X 8.5 =5.3

Owlbear has taken 36


You forget It is Stun not Daze so you can Sneak attack it. You didn't need flank.

[Stubbed Tongue]

Wow. thanks guys having awsered my question and given great advice on how to kick owlbear next time. To awnser qu's
No sorceror did not know colour spray.
"Training to be a druid" we encountered the owlbear on a side q to find a druid circle to give me druid training. (I made the wrong 1st lvl choice)
It was a straight inititive Dm gave us spot and listen to spot owlbear which we passed.If you are still in the vicinity look for some owlbear eggs, it would be a good animal companion at lower levels for you guys. It's worth a try despite what the MM says.

[Octopus Jack]

If you are still in the vicinity look for some owlbear eggs, it would be a good animal companion at lower levels for you guys. It's worth a try despite what the MM says.

That is a nice idea for a side quest, it wasn't a random encounter it was planned.

[One Armed Ninja]

Here's a quickie from the skill monkey...

Initiative went (something like):
Rogue
Owlbear
Fighter
Sorc
Cleric

Rogue(2) -> Has 2-wep fight + defense. Longsword and shortsowrd (hp 11 (second level roll was 1, AC 18)
Fighter(1) -> Armed with pick/spiked armour and spiked sheild (hp 13, AC 17)
Cleric(1) -> Some random spells, including doom and cause fear (/facepalm) Only 1 cure light. (hp 11, AC 17)
Sorceror(2) -> Mainly uses mage armour (and a mwk cold iron greatsword we picked up), dont think has colour spray (hp 15 (toughness 16 con) Ac 12)

First turn, rogue delayed to try and flank, but fighter fled after being charged so started to move around the owlbear. Sorcerer did something and cleric did just about nothing, might've tried to sling.

Second trun Rogue gets behind owlbear, (large circle) Owlbear turns and charge rogue, when others are closer and in front tsk tsk. Hits with claw, grapple - rogue about 3 hp.
Fighter tries to attack, cleric runs in uses inflict llight wounds...
Sorcerer stays back i think uses mage armour.

Third turn, when trying to break out, owlbear gets to attack rogue, down to -4. Drops rogue whistles round and smashes in the cleric, dropping him unconciouss (-8)
Fighter takes only potion in party out of rogues pocket and force feeds it, back up to 3 or so hp. Sorcerer stabalises cleric.

Rogue tries once mroe in vain to kill owlbear, does some(little) damage, owlbear attacks rogue crits with one claw, down to -9. Fighter and sorcerer stay one more round, doing stuff but to little effect.

Rogue manages to not die. Owlbear then knocks fighter to 1hp, fighter and sorcerer flee.

Owlbear chases sorcerer (not quite reaching), suicidal fighter then charges owlbear while sorcerer get a little further away.

Owlbear Knocks fighter down to -6 or so, sorcerer throws a rock and keeps running, back into a village where owlbear is gang banged

Pretty much how it went I think...

[Akal Saris]

Eh, I think it was just poor luck and poor tactics against a challenging fight.

In hindsight, round 1 was pretty much a disaster. You probably should have thrown something at the owlbear for SA dmg and moved back behind the fighter. The fighter should have tanked while fighting defensively, and the cleric should have cast doom or cause fear rather than slapping ineffectively. The sorcerer should have done something useful rather than wasting a round to buff.

It doesn't help that nobody in the party was particularly optimized (greatsword sorcerer? Fighter with a pick? Rogue took two-weapon defense and had poor luck with HPs? Cleric with melee inflict spells?), so you had both average builds and poor tactics working against you, as well as a string of misses early on and a crit from the owlbear.

Final judgment: I think the DM was well within his rights to throw the owlbear at the party, it was a challenging encounter that just went very poorly for the party.

[ericgrau]

Nah, that was horribly played, regardless of builds. All in all 3 out of the 4 party members each took only 1 swing at the owlbear after 4 rounds. I dunno what kind of tactics your party thinks they were setting up, but you could have done much better if all of you blindly rushed it and started swinging until your deaths... without healing or stabilizing eachother at all.

Just about every other action was time wasting. You have defensive actions that are far weaker than offensive ones and moving around to get such a minor advantage that you'd get more damage from taking another attack instead.

EDIT: Here's what you could have done:

Round 1: Rogue wins initiative and fires a crossbow for sneak attack. If he doesn't carry a ranged weapon, then shame on him. Okay, then charge the owlbear for a sneak attack instead. Notice how he's already a mile above what actually happened. Owlbear's turn: if the rogue went into melee then the owlbear quickly drops him to the negatives with a full attack, but a melee rogue would have had to melee it some day so it's not like he could have done better. If he's at range, then the owlbear charges him in annoyance, hurts him and grapples him, but the rogue is still up. The fighter and cleric immediately charge the owlbear and do some damage. Out of the rogue and fighter, 1 hits for 7 damage, plus maybe another 5.5 from ILW. The sorcerer may not have the perfect spell available, but hopefully he at least has something that's actually usefuly like a damage spell or a ray of enfeeblement. Now we're up to 12ish damage out of 52.

Round 2: With everyone crowding the owlbear gets full attacks from here on out, averaging 13.5 damage per round against AC 17. Grappling is actually a disadvantage for him now since it only disables 1 foe and gets a -4 to hit. The rogue makes one last attempt to stab the owlbear and probably misses, before the owlbear finishes him off. He directs his remaining 1 or 2 attacks at the cleric or fighter. They and the sorceror do another 10 damage. Nobody bothers with the rogue since they still have the owlbear to deal with. The owlbear didn't finish off the rogue b/c he still has PCs to deal with (though if he did that'd save the PCs some damage).

Round 3: Fighter or cleric drops, the other swings, sorc takes another shot, and now we're up to about 30-32 damage. There's no point to the fighter fleeing since his armor slows him down. The sorc might flee.

Round 4: The owlbear drops the remaining melee. The sorcerer flees if he hasn't already.

Yeah, the party still didn't have much chance, but at least you could have taken him down to half health instead of the single digit damage that you did. Or maybe if the fight started from farther away you could have peppered it with arrows before getting into the above melee, and then you might have won. FWIW a ray of enfeeblement could have bought the party another swing or two at it, for 3-4 more damage vs. a damage spell. Really it was a combination of builds, party makeup, strategy and a difficult fight.

[AslanCross]

Other suggestions:

1. The rogue could do some scouting ahead, with the others within 1 full round action's worth of running behind him.

2. At this point the rogue signals the sorcerer to cast Mage Armor---it has a very long duration even at Lv 1, so it's very helpful.

3. Use a cantrip (if he has Ghost Sound or Dancing Lights or whatever) to distract the owlbear and make it move up to you while you hide.

4. At this point, the Owlbear is going to smell you, so the ruse won't last long. It is also likely to hear or spot you, as it has a +8 modifier.

5. Charge it blindly, as above. Prevent it from moving around. You're more likely to get somewhere there. Alternatively the sorcerer could give the fighter his greatsword and have him hack it to bits. (The sorcerer isn't even proficient with greatswords and should have a negative attack bonus on that thing.)

[sofawall]

Sofawall's party strategy sounds nice,<snip>

Er, that was Slayn, not me.

[Icewraith]

What did we learn today, kids?

1 opponent over CR is much, much riskier than multiple under-CR opponents in terms of character survival. If you absolutely must run an over-CR encounter against a party this low level, make sure they get some advance warning.

Also @ your party sorcerer: Caltrops as you're running away in case the beast is faster than you!

[Stubbed Tongue]

That is a nice idea for a side quest, it wasn't a random encounter it was planned.

Thank you for your kind words.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

You forget It is Stun not Daze so you can Sneak attack it. You didn't need flank.

No, 8 average damage is with sneak attack.

rogue probably has weapon focus (since he can't have finesse and has 0 BAB and mediocre str) and a ranged feat lets say point blank shot
17 AC12 hp +3 hit rapier 1d6+1(1d6 SA) avg 4.5(8) short bow +4 hit 1d6(1d6 SA) avg 3.5(7)
(assuming 16 dex, 12 str, 12 con

[ericgrau]

(owlbear dazed twice in a row)
As said, there's only a 36% chance of this happening. There were also some other big assumptions like giving the fighter fairly decent stats and toughness, making sure he was the one charged, and so on. Not only was this party built very specifically for this one particular fight, the circumstances given are also heavily in their favor. And a PC or two still dies. I think what this shows is that with their particular classes and levels there's almost no way he could have won. EDIT: Well, at least w/o special tactics. Somehow trapping it or delaying or w/e and arrowing it half to death first could work, for example.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Agreed and I pointed out I was doing that in the parties favor. I'm sorry if anyone misinterpretted my scenario. I meant to show that this was too powerful for a moderately optimized party was out of it's league and I repeatedly mentioned that the benifit of the doubt went to the party alot like when the fighter had one hp after a full attack because he had toughness rather than a prereq feat that wouldn't have helped much.

I wanted to make a point to everyone saying how the OP should have used strategy or with better builds, that's not the game they were playing and the DM should have known better. Just because 2-3 Harry Potters( a lvl 1 sorc build with mount, power word pain and several sudden meta magic feats) could take it with 0 chance of casualty for that matter 1 Draco Malfoy (same concept as Harry but instead of Powerword pain and sudden meta magic he has precocios apprentice and the orb of acid reserve feat so even though he can't kill things nearly as fast which is bad he has even more ability to wear down big ground based enemies with no ranged attack)

or you could have all climbed trees I guess.

[ericgrau]

Oic that's what I get for skimming.

[faceroll]

What did we learn today, kids?

1 opponent over CR is much, much riskier than multiple under-CR opponents in terms of character survival. If you absolutely must run an over-CR encounter against a party this low level, make sure they get some advance warning.

Also @ your party sorcerer: Caltrops as you're running away in case the beast is faster than you!

No, it looks like the owlbear was played too smartly. Owlbears are supposed to be played like animals. They shouldn't charge-grapple flanking rogues outside of melee range, imo.

[ericgrau]

Nah, I think all the tests so far show that the party was still pretty screwed. No one even comes close to winning. The one that does has a lot of contrived assumptions which are only there to show how hopeless it is with those 4 classes at this level.

Anyhoo, the 4 SaB fighter scenario is below. Unlike some of the above no special tricks like toughness are used nor any special combat strategy. It also assumes that the owlbear goes straight for the weakest fighters, which gives him a big advantage. Note again that grappling a fighter would only give said fighter a great opportunity to tank the owlbear's lower damage output (from -4 AB) while his friends wail on the owlbear. Not grappling likewise gives the owlbear an advantage. It's a rather simple setup too; ideally there'd be 2 bow fighters with rapid shot and 2 melee.

Fighter 1: +4 AB, 1d8+2 damage, 12 HP, 18 AC, 3.25 DPR (improved init, dodge, weapon focus)
Fighter 2: +6 AB, 1d8+2 damage, 19 HP, 20 AC, 4.25 DPR (1 unused feat)
Owlbear: 2x +9 1d6+5 / +4 1d8+2 damage, 52 HP, 15 AC, 5.1/4.25 or 12.5/10 DPR

Round 1: 3 of the fighters open with slings for about 6 damage. The owlbear moves up to attack a weaker fighter and does about 5 damage. The last fighter swings for 3 more damage for a total of 9.
Round 2: 3 fighters draw swords and swing for about 12 damage. The owlbear finishes off the weak fighter and attempts to bite another one for minor damage. The last fighter swings for 3 more damage for a total of 24 so far.
Round 3: 2 fighters swing for 8.5 damage. The owlbear takes down another weak fighter.
Round 4: 2 fighters swing for 8.5 damage. The owlbear wounds but does not kill 1. 41 damage so far.
Round 5: 2 fighters swing for 8.5 damage. The owlbear drops 1. 49.5 damage so far.
Round 6: The last remaining fighter drops the owlbear. He is at full HP.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Oic that's what I get for skimming.

Understandable it was a huge f'ing wall o' text.

I like what you did above. Now I kinda want to try winning with the smallest level one group possible without resorting to an "I win" button like Harry Potter or a Fighter with EWP: Harpoon that solo's it with ease then maybe I'll move on to giant crab.

[tyckspoon]

No, it looks like the owlbear was played too smartly. Owlbears are supposed to be played like animals. They shouldn't charge-grapple flanking rogues outside of melee range, imo.

That is in fact a highly animalistic tactic. Turn on the thing that is acting threatening (by trying to get to your blind side), pin it down, and disembowel. You may argue if it's fully appropriate for an Owlbear, but cats hunt and fight like that, at the least- it's the tactic represented by their Rake attacks.

[taltamir]

AFAIK A CR4 encounter means a party of 4 level 4 players should be able to able to reliably defeat about 3 of such encounters a day with no losses.
defeating an encounter several levels above you is tough, it is extremely tough at level 1 where you are playing rocket tag (1 hit kill); because 1 hit kills you, but the enemy has enough HP to take multiple hits to take down.

People here are mentioning taking flaws (ironically, they make you significantly more powerful) and min maxing up the wazoo (DMM cleric; chain tripper fighters, etc)... I doubt the OP even knows what those options mean.

A cleric 1 that wants to multiclass into druid? a fighter (extremely bad class; at least be a barb... or swordsage, etc)? a sorcerer (instead of wizard)? and a rogue? plus he just joined the forums too so he hasn't had time to see some of the crazier charop experiments (nothing wrong about it, I didn't know them either when I just joined and had to be taught)

Basically, its a 1st level party that has no min maxing experience (or desire) being thrown to an owlbear at level 1... and the owlbear gets surprise... yea they are toast. As for tactics, most of the things it will be totally immune to. They have to catch it by surprise, exploit the terrain, and use consumables if they want to stand a chance. I doubt they have the right consumables.

Even if the party knew about some of the powergaming / minmaxing and charop tricks, they shouldn't have to resort to those just to survive. I think it was a bad encounter for the DM to spring on you.

[faceroll]

That is in fact a highly animalistic tactic. Turn on the thing that is acting threatening (by trying to get to your blind side), pin it down, and disembowel. You may argue if it's fully appropriate for an Owlbear, but cats hunt and fight like that, at the least- it's the tactic represented by their Rake attacks.

Read the stat block on owl bears. They're rageholics with binocular vision. I just see that sort of behavior out of character for the rampaging creatures.

[Volthawk]

That is in fact a highly animalistic tactic. Turn on the thing that is acting threatening (by trying to get to your blind side), pin it down, and disembowel. You may argue if it's fully appropriate for an Owlbear, but cats hunt and fight like that, at the least- it's the tactic represented by their Rake attacks.

Erm, they don't have Rake attacks. Improved Grab, but not Rake.

[tyckspoon]

Erm, they don't have Rake attacks. Improved Grab, but not Rake.

'twas in reference to D&D's stats for larger hunting cats, which near-universally have Pounce+Rakes.

[Volthawk]

'twas in reference to D&D's stats for larger hunting cats, which near-universally have Pounce+Rakes.

Oh, yeah. Just reread your post.