Sorcerer Variant [PEACH]

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Had an idea for a Sorcerer variant/fix.

Basically, a Sorcerer is able to take a scroll from the Wiz/Sorc spell list and make it a Spell Known, at the cost of the scroll, and probably some other amount of money/resources/whatever. They can't do this with a spell over half their sorcerer level. Also make it take 1 day per spell level, so it can't just be done on the fly.

Basically, this levels the playing field with Wizard. They can cast spontaneous, but get spells one spell level later.

[JoshuaZ]

Had an idea for a Sorcerer variant/fix.

Basically, a Sorcerer is able to take a scroll from the Wiz/Sorc spell list and make it a Spell Known, at the cost of the scroll, and probably some other amount of money/resources/whatever. They can't do this with a spell over half their sorcerer level. Also make it take 1 day per spell level, so it can't just be done on the fly.

Basically, this levels the playing field with Wizard. They can cast spontaneous, but get spells one spell level later.

That's really broken. You've made a sorcerer with time on their hands effectively into a Beholder Mage. This has the exact same brokenness as a wizard's spell versatility and you don't even need to prepare in advance.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That's really broken. You've made a sorcerer with time on their hands effectively into a Beholder Mage. This has the exact same brokenness as a wizard's spell versatility and you don't even need to prepare in advance.

Not nearly as nasty as a Beholder Mage, who can cast 9 times a round.

It's supposed to match Wizard's spell versatility, so I suppose it works...

[HunterOfJello]

You might want to make it so that they can only do this with spells that are 1/4th of the Sorcerer level. A level 4 Sorcerer can use level 2 Spells. A level 6 Sorcerer can use level 3 spells.



I like the idea behind giving the Sorcerer a greater number of low level spells as they progress. Maybe you should just modify the Spells Known list instead of creating a new mechanic that could be easily exploited by saying "My character spends 3 weeks learning spells in the inn."

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You might want to make it so that they can only do this with spells that are 1/4th of the Sorcerer level. A level 4 Sorcerer can use level 2 Spells. A level 6 Sorcerer can use level 3 spells. The goal is to make the Sorcerer able to significantly compete with a Wizard. However, you have a point, I'll have to re-work the formula


I like the idea behind giving the Sorcerer a greater number of low level spells as they progress. Maybe you should just modify the Spells Known list instead of creating a new mechanic that could be easily exploited by saying "My character spends 3 weeks learning spells in the inn."

Why not? A Wizard can do it much easier and much faster. Also, in 3 weeks, he can learn up to 21 spell levels worth of spells. Not actually all that much. And that's only if the campaign (read: the DM) allows you to have that much downtime.

[HunterOfJello]

If you're just trying to improve spontaneous casters a bit, you could consider giving them the ability to Recharge Magic from Unearthed Aracana. That would improve their spells per day instead of spells known and fit the idea of a Sorcerer a bit better.


I haven't seen any homebrew alternatives to giving Sorcerer's more spells, but i'll keep an eye out for any.

[JoshuaZ]

Not nearly as nasty as a Beholder Mage, who can cast 9 times a round.

It's supposed to match Wizard's spell versatility, so I suppose it works...

Yes, but the "I can cast any spell I want" is clearly better than "I can cast any spell I want as long as I've prepared it before hand." Beholder Mage is broken for two reasons, not one reason.

If you restricted this to lower level spells (scaling with the sorc level) as some have suggested this might be ok.

[lightningcat]

If you're just trying to improve spontaneous casters a bit, you could consider giving them the ability to Recharge Magic from Unearthed Aracana. That would improve their spells per day instead of spells known and fit the idea of a Sorcerer a bit better.


I haven't seen any homebrew alternatives to giving Sorcerer's more spells, but i'll keep an eye out for any.

This is untried so be warned, but I'm planning on continuing the basic pattern laid out in the normal spell advancement (for all spellcasting classes). This could be a very bad idea, but my group is realatively unoptomized, so I'm not too worried.

Spells: Sorcerers gain an additional 1st-level spell per day at each even level after 4th; an additional 2nd-level spell per day at each odd level after 7th; an additional 3rd-level spell per day at each odd level after 9th; an additional 4th-level spell per day at each odd level after 11th; an additional 5th-level spell per day at each odd level after 13th; an additional 6th-level spell per day at each odd level after 15th; an additional 7th-level spell per day at 19th; and an additional 8th-level spell per day at 20th level.

Sorcerers gain an additional 0th-level spell known at 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th level; and an additional 1st-level spell known at 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th level; an additional 2nd-level spell known at 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th level; an additional 3rd-level spell known at 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th level; an additional 4th-level spell known at 15th, 17th, and 19th level; an additional 5th-level spell known at 17th, and 19th level; an additional 6th-level spell known at 17th, and 19th level; and an additional 7th-level spell known at 19th level.

In all actuality, They would then lose one of the 9th level spells per day gained at 20th level, but...

[HunterOfJello]

Another option would be to remove the normal maximum spells known by Sorcerers and have them continue to learn a new spell every 2 levels. For instance, Sorcerers usually stop learning 1st level spells at lvl 7. This way, they would continue to gain a new spell known at level 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, and 19.

This way, the Sorcerer gets a continuous increase in his lower level spells known. That would make their Spells Known chart look like this:

Sorcecer Spells Known (without maximums)
{table] |0 |1st |2nd |3rd |4th |5th |6th |7th |8th |9th
1st |4| 2| —| —| —| —| —| —| —| —
2nd |5| 2| —| —| —| —| —| —| —| —
3rd |5| 3| —| —| —| —| —| —| —| —
4th |6| 3| 1| —| —| —| —| —| —| —
5th |6| 4| 2| —| —| —| —| —| —| —
6th |7| 4| 2| 1| —| —| —| —| —| —
7th |7| 5| 3| 2| —| —| —| —| —| —
8th |8| 5| 3| 2| 1| —| —| —| —| —
9th |8| 6| 4| 3| 2| —| —| —| —| —
10th |9| 6| 4| 3| 2| 1| —| —| —| —
11th |9| 7| 5| 4| 3| 2| —| —| —| —
12th |10| 7| 5| 4| 3| 2| 1| —| —| —
13th |10| 8| 6| 5| 4| 3| 2| —| —| —
14th |11| 8| 6| 5| 4| 3| 2| 1| —| —
15th |11| 9| 7| 6| 5| 4| 3| 2| —| —
16th |12| 9| 7| 6| 5| 4| 3| 2| 1| —
17th |12| 10| 8| 7| 6| 5| 3| 3| 2| —
18th |13| 10| 8| 7| 6| 5| 4| 3| 2| 1
19th |13| 11| 9| 8| 7| 6| 4| 4| 3| 2
20th |14| 11| 9| 8| 7| 6| 5| 4| 3| 3
[/table]

instead of this:

Sorcecer Spells Known (normal / with maximums)
{table] |0 |1st |2nd |3rd |4th |5th |6th |7th |8th |9th
1st |4| 2| —| —| —| —| —| —| —| —
2nd |5| 2| —| —| —| —| —| —| —| —
3rd |5| 3| —| —| —| —| —| —| —| —
4th |6| 3| 1| —| —| —| —| —| —| —
5th |6| 4| 2| —| —| —| —| —| —| —
6th |7| 4| 2| 1| —| —| —| —| —| —
7th |7| 5| 3| 2| —| —| —| —| —| —
8th |8| 5| 3| 2| 1| —| —| —| —| —
9th |8| 5| 4| 3| 2| —| —| —| —| —
10th |9| 5| 4| 3| 2| 1| —| —| —| —
11th |9| 5| 5| 4| 3| 2| —| —| —| —
12th |9| 5| 5| 4| 3| 2| 1| —| —| —
13th |9| 5| 5| 4| 4| 3| 2| —| —| —
14th |9| 5| 5| 4| 4| 3| 2| 1| —| —
15th |9| 5| 5| 4| 4| 4| 3| 2| —| —
16th |9| 5| 5| 4| 4| 4| 3| 2| 1| —
17th |9| 5| 5| 4| 4| 4| 3| 3| 2| —
18th |9| 5| 5| 4| 4| 4| 3| 3| 2| 1
19th |9| 5| 5| 4| 4| 4| 3| 3| 3| 2
20th |9| 5| 5| 4| 4| 4| 3| 3| 3| 3
[/table]


*edit*

it sounds exactly what i think lightningcat was trying to achieve, but is simpler in its mechanics.

*edit2*

oh it is what he was trying to do, except he was adding an extra spell known at each time a spell level's # known would hit 3. and then more at other levels beside

[Lysander]

What if a sorcerer added any spell they cast from a scroll (or discarded from a scroll) to their spell list for 24 hours? Say casting the spell temporarily added it to their arsenal.

[Temotei]

What if a sorcerer added any spell they cast from a scroll (or discarded from a scroll) to their spell list for 24 hours? Say casting the spell temporarily added it to their arsenal.

That...could be a great class feature. Hm. Nice. :smallamused:

[Fizban]

Might I suggest looking up the Erudite in the back of Complete Psionic? It's the psionic version of what you want. Casts spontaneously and can learn as many spells as it wants, the only catch is you have a very short number of effects available each day. There's a lot of argument on just how to read it, but it's plain as day to me and it's just a starting point if you're homebrewing anyway.

Here's an alternate idea: how about 1/day, maybe 1/day/5 levels or so, you can commit a scroll or other magical writing to memory, and treat is as a spell known for the rest of the day. So say you don't have any cold spells and you fight some fire giants, so the next day you borrow the wizard's spellbook and read up on Cone of Cold, and it becomes a known spell for the rest of the day.

Edit: heh, looks like Lysander beat me to it. That's what I get for not reading the thread.

[Temotei]

Edit: heh, looks like Lysander beat me to it. That's what I get for not reading the thread.

Lysander's version is better, since it doesn't have a level-limit, per-day limit, or any other limit. Yours is less prone to abuse though. I'd make it 1/day at 1st, 2/day at 4th, 3/day at 8th, 4/day at 12th, 5/day at 16th, and 6/day at 20th.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

What if a sorcerer added any spell they cast from a scroll (or discarded from a scroll) to their spell list for 24 hours? Say casting the spell temporarily added it to their arsenal.

I like this...

Also, the expanded Spells Known list table, basically not capping the Spells Known, so they know quite a few lower level spells...

[Lysander]

As a way of limiting that scroll memorization power what about requiring that they temporarily lose to ability to cast one spell they know of equal level? So a sorcerer is still limited to a small number of spells known, this just lets them temporarily swap their spells for new ones.

[Volthawk]

What if a sorcerer added any spell they cast from a scroll (or discarded from a scroll) to their spell list for 24 hours? Say casting the spell temporarily added it to their arsenal.

Hell, that be a class if modified.

A class that powers it's spells with scrolls....

I might try making that.

[Lysander]

Hell, that be a class if modified.

A class that powers it's spells with scrolls....

I might try making that.

Hmm...what about a caster that can attune themselves to scrolls, allowing them to cast from the scroll once a day without expending it? They'd have to pick which scrolls to attune to in the morning each day. They wouldn't have spell slots, instead they would have a maximum about of spell levels they could attune to a day, allowing them to attune to many lower levels scrolls or just a few higher level ones. Overall they'd cast much fewer cumulative spell levels in a day than a wizard or sorcerer, but they'd have flexibility in what to cast. And of course their spell list is endlessly mutable and expandable, though they'd need multiple copies of a spell in order to cast it more than once in a single day.

[Volthawk]

Hmm...what about a caster that can attune themselves to scrolls, allowing them to cast from the scroll once a day without expending it? They'd have to pick which scrolls to attune to in the morning each day. They wouldn't have spell slots, instead they would have a maximum about of spell levels they could attune to a day, allowing them to attune to many lower levels scrolls or just a few higher level ones. Overall they'd cast much fewer cumulative spell levels in a day than a wizard or sorcerer, but they'd have flexibility in what to cast. And of course their spell list is endlessly mutable and expandable, though they'd need multiple copies of a spell in order to cast it more than once in a single day.

I'm starting to make it now as a prestige class (9 levels), and I've sort of got an idea that they can 'drain' scrolls and get that amount as a sort of 'point' system. Spells can be cast with those points at a higher spell level than usual, with restrictions based on your levels in the class (I'm thinking max spell level castable as Prc level, so up to 5th level). Ideas?

EDIT: Actually, no +1 to castable spells.

[Analytica]

You probably prefer your solution, but here is what I would do:

Feat: Improved Arcane Preparation
Prerequisites: Arcane Preparation, Scribe Scroll, Spellcraft 4 ranks, Knowledge: Arcane 4 ranks, Decipher Script 4 ranks
You may prepare one or more spells ahead of time, just as with Arcane Preparation (spell slot is locked to that spell until it is cast), but you may prepare these spells from a spellbook, provided the spells are on your class spell list, rather than merely from spells you know. You must have an Intelligence score equal to 10 + the level of the spell to prepare it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You probably prefer your solution, but here is what I would do:

Feat: Improved Arcane Preparation
Prerequisites: Arcane Preparation, Scribe Scroll, Spellcraft 4 ranks, Knowledge: Arcane 4 ranks, Decipher Script 4 ranks
You may prepare one or more spells ahead of time, just as with Arcane Preparation (spell slot is locked to that spell until it is cast), but you may prepare these spells from a spellbook, provided the spells are on your class spell list, rather than merely from spells you know. You must have an Intelligence score equal to 10 + the level of the spell to prepare it.

The problem is that this turns you into a Wizard who gets spell levels a level later...

[Roderick_BR]

Just increase the number of spells a sorcerer gains. It sucks greatly that at every time he gains a new spell level (that is 1 class level late), he gains only 1 spell known.
Sorcerer: Whee I'm level 6 finally, I can learn.... one 3rd level spell.
Wizard: I learned two 3rd levle spells last level, and gained 2 more now. And I can prepare at least 2 spells a day, while you can cast 1 spell 3 times a day. My net gain is still better.

My suggestions: Have sorcerer get Schew Material at 1st level for free, allow him to "prepare" spells in advance (in effect, he can "lock" a spell slot with a prepared spell, meaning that everyday he can choose between flexibility and metamagic power), and increase each spells known list in 1. It'll add a few more options to a sorcerer, and I doubt he'll be more powerful than a wizard.

If you want to go further, allow sorcerers to learn cleric spells (not domains/paladin/ranger/druids-only spells). This way you can forget the Mystic Theurge mess with a single class that is still limited on spells known.

[Maroon]

Hmm...what about a caster that can attune themselves to scrolls, allowing them to cast from the scroll once a day without expending it? They'd have to pick which scrolls to attune to in the morning each day. They wouldn't have spell slots, instead they would have a maximum about of spell levels they could attune to a day, allowing them to attune to many lower levels scrolls or just a few higher level ones. Overall they'd cast much fewer cumulative spell levels in a day than a wizard or sorcerer, but they'd have flexibility in what to cast. And of course their spell list is endlessly mutable and expandable, though they'd need multiple copies of a spell in order to cast it more than once in a single day.
I think I saw something like that somewhere. If memory serves, it was called the wizard. Only this one has filing problems. As a player, I'd just play a wizard. As a referee, I'd remove the distinction between scrolls and spell books entirely (and bring back the endgame, and just play OD&D...)

I don't think you'll fix sorcerers with scrolls. They're too linked to wizards. How about sorcerers can learn spells from other sorcerers? You'd have to find a sorcerer of a higher level than you, who knows the spell you want and is willing to teach it to you. You'd have to pay for expensive initiation rituals and magical substances. You'd probably have to sit out an adventure and miss out on XP, but then wizards are throwing away XP all the time. It's much more limited and complicated than wizards, who can just nick their spells, but then sorcerers are more versatile in what they can cast at any given moment. It also fits much better with the fluff of sorcerers being the liberal arts majors of arcane magic.

I'd also require clerics to seek out a higher-level cleric to learn new spells, but that's besides the point.