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taltamir
2010-03-09, 07:59 PM
I know that wizards have a big ol sack of tricks, meaning most of their foils are completely optionals if they choose to overcome them...

what method could a wizard use to utterly blow through SR?
Assay resistance is a good ol favorite, is there a more efficient way to use it (cheaper always on, etc)
are there any other effective methods of bypassing SR?

Ryumaru
2010-03-09, 08:01 PM
I hear people mention Orbs of [x] a lot, which apparently ignore SR.

sofawall
2010-03-09, 08:01 PM
SR:No spells?

Ernir
2010-03-09, 08:03 PM
Boosting your CL through the roof always works. :smalltongue:

Abd al-Azrad
2010-03-09, 08:05 PM
Almost all conjuration spells ignore SR.

Picking up some classes and abilities that boost your CL work really well- Spell Power is available to a ton of PrCs, including Archmage. Once you have these, pick up Arcane Mastery, which allows you to take 10 on CL checks. Final result: the ability to ignore almost all CR-appropriate spell resistance. You will never roll worse than average, and average should generally give you a roll of 12+Caster Level, exactly the number you need for most foes' SR you'll face.

Geiger Counter
2010-03-09, 08:08 PM
Boosting your CL through the roof always works. :smalltongue:

a cheap way to do this is by taking the first level od wild mage, then take practiced spell caster.

tyckspoon
2010-03-09, 08:16 PM
Pump your caster level (or just caster level-for-purposes-of-SR, if you really have to) and take Arcane Mastery to take 10 on caster level checks. It should be relatively simple to get a static check result high enough to pierce any level-appropriate SR. Level+5 or so should generally do enough and is reasonably easy to attain. (Although you may consider the slots for Assay Resistance/True Casting to be a lesser cost.)

There is always the easy route of simply using summons/conjurations/terrain alterations/other indirect or otherwise SR: No effects, but you know those options already.

Not-really-serious: Acquire a cohort (or convince one of your party members to be) Slayer with a Shattermantle weapon. Slayer 8 reduces power resistance (spell resistance via transparency) by 1/hit. Shattermantle is a +1 property that reduces SR by 2/hit until the attacker's next turn. Let him slap your target around before you cast.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-09, 08:19 PM
Orbs ignore spell resistance. Orb spells also do amazing direct damage with more damage than many other spells of the same levels. Moreover, some of them also have small little nifty goodies attached to their effects.

Oh, and orb spells require attack roles. So those rogues don't get pesky evasion to help them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html).

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-10, 12:22 AM
This might not be completely on topic but a critter has to lower its SR to benefit from spells others cast on it. Standard action to lower it, automatically comes up later.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-10, 12:30 AM
This might not be completely on topic but a critter has to lower its SR to benefit from spells others cast on it. Standard action to lower it, automatically comes up later.

True but most every party ignores that rule.

Eclipse
2010-03-10, 12:32 AM
If you can get minions (followers via leadership perhaps?) to burn some spells for you, the Red Wizard of Thay prestige class will let you pump your caster level pretty dramatically each day. This is an excellent way to break through SR if you don't want to go with using conjuration spells instead. It's great for your spell durations and any spells that don't have a damage cap too. Also, they get some other nifty abilities from minions giving up spell slots for them in addition to better CL, though I forget what they are and don't have access to a 3.5 dmg right now.

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-10, 12:38 AM
True but most every party ignores that rule.

"I can't police the world." *pats his Sig .45* "But I'd like too."

faceroll
2010-03-10, 03:56 AM
This might not be completely on topic but a critter has to lower its SR to benefit from spells others cast on it. Standard action to lower it, automatically comes up later.

Unless it's a (harmless) spell, I think.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-10, 04:17 AM
Consider that there are even spells made to beat SR.

Assay spell resistance give a +10 on checks against a particular target. So, you if have to cast a spell that needs SR, because, say, cast the orb is not the case this time, you have anyway a big help.

Eldariel
2010-03-10, 04:35 AM
Consider that there are even spells made to beat SR.

Assay spell resistance give a +10 on checks against a particular target. So, you if have to cast a spell that needs SR, because, say, cast the orb is not the case this time, you have anyway a big help.

Yeah, Assay notably lasts for a while. True Casting, on the other hand, gives you +10 on your next roll. Totals at +20, which tends to be sufficient for just about anything. Though that's a lot of resources.

taltamir
2010-03-10, 05:41 AM
where is true casting from? I never heard of it before.

Cyclocone
2010-03-10, 05:59 AM
where is true casting from? I never heard of it before.

CMag.derpderpderp

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-10, 06:09 AM
Yeah, Assay notably lasts for a while. True Casting, on the other hand, gives you +10 on your next roll. Totals at +20, which tends to be sufficient for just about anything. Though that's a lot of resources.

Untyped bonuses that stack, I guess :smallamused:

Sigh.. I didn't even remember the second one.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-10, 06:56 AM
Spell Vulnerability is a 95% chance (at high levels) of dropping enemy SR by 15.

Y'see, it allows a save, but they take your CL as a penalty on the save.

Longcat
2010-03-10, 07:30 AM
Polymorph/Divine Power, and whack them in melee?

Teron
2010-03-10, 07:47 AM
Unless it's a (harmless) spell, I think.
Spell resistance applies to harmless spells, except for the caster's own SR (if any).

Optimystik
2010-03-10, 08:07 AM
Your SR never applies to your own spells, harmless or not. This is what keeps "I cast Fireball centered on myself" from working the way you want it to.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-10, 08:08 AM
Yep, this is why Drow favor Cleric class: they can't trust healing each other.

This is also why Golems can cast spells on themselves (SR no apply to self).

Cyclocone
2010-03-10, 08:11 AM
Polymorph/Divine Power, and whack them in melee?

Better yet, use Shapechange instead.

Red dragon --> burninate people.
Ethergaunt --> mindrape people.
Zodar --> teleport people into the Sun.
+The over 9000 others I'm forgetting.

AtwasAwamps
2010-03-10, 09:44 AM
Unless it's a (harmless) spell, I think.

Nope. Harmless still requires lowering.

I make it a swift action to lower/raise it for the drow in our game. It's not like it makes a difference to the casters they face, but its fun to watch her agonize about it.

taltamir
2010-03-10, 07:38 PM
Spell Vulnerability is a 95% chance (at high levels) of dropping enemy SR by 15.

Y'see, it allows a save, but they take your CL as a penalty on the save.

the version I saw in spell compendium drops their SR by 8, and only if they fail a fort save, and they do NOT take your CL as penalty to it... where is your version of this spell from and when was it printed?


Yep, this is why Drow favor Cleric class: they can't trust healing each other.

This is also why Golems can cast spells on themselves (SR no apply to self).

golems do not have SR, they have IMMUNITY to all spells that allow SR. there is a difference.
And only drow female nobles are allowed to be clerics. male nobles are either fighters, or wizards. commoners of both sexes are just commoners.
(According to lore, so it would be pretty stupid if they put cleric as a favorite class for the race)

Volkov
2010-03-10, 07:41 PM
I hear people mention Orbs of [x] a lot, which apparently ignore SR.

I myself think that the orbs of [x] are somewhat unfair, as it lets conjurers steal the shtick of evokers and do it better. Thus making all evokers utter rubbish, or even more so. I'd throw them a bone or two to prevent them from being the unchallenged bottom rung of the wizard schools.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-10, 07:45 PM
I myself think that the orbs of [x] are somewhat unfair, as it lets conjurers steal the shtick of evokers and do it better. Thus making all evokers utter rubbish, or even more so. I'd throw them a bone or two to prevent them from being the unchallenged bottom rung of the wizard schools.

We know, please do not state the obvious.

taltamir
2010-03-10, 07:46 PM
I myself think that the orbs of [x] are somewhat unfair, as it lets conjurers steal the shtick of evokers and do it better. Thus making all evokers utter rubbish, or even more so. I'd throw them a bone or two to prevent them from being the unchallenged bottom rung of the wizard schools.

simple solution... orbs of X are evocation instead of conjuration.
also, "use spells that don't require SR" completely ignores the purpose of this thread. I am well aware that there is CC and self targetted spells and buffs and spells that hurt the enemy without SR... this is completely NOT what I am asking about. I am asking how to make the enemy's SR irrelevant while still using spells that allow SR...

speaking of... are there any class features from PrCs that bypass SR?
for example, force missile mage allows magic missiles to bypass SR, shield, and globes of invulnerability.

tyckspoon
2010-03-10, 07:49 PM
golems do not have SR, they have IMMUNITY to all spells that allow SR. there is a difference.


No, there isn't; the immunity explicitly functions exactly the same as SR. The check to beat it is just infinite, which does not provide immunity to things that don't have to check against SR in the first place. Like spells an SR-bearing creature casts on itself.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-10, 07:52 PM
speaking of... are there any class features from PrCs that bypass SR?
for example, force missile mage allows magic missiles to bypass SR, shield, and globes of invulnerability.

Not that I'm aware of, but you can use the Wild Mage PrC and Practiced Spellcaster to boost your CL. If you lose a level of spell progression, it actually improves your CL by 1d6.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-10, 07:54 PM
golems do not have SR, they have IMMUNITY to all spells that allow SR. there is a difference.
And only drow female nobles are allowed to be clerics. male nobles are either fighters, or wizards. commoners of both sexes are just commoners.
(According to lore, so it would be pretty stupid if they put cleric as a favorite class for the race)

Still, if they were immune to SR spells and you couldn't bypassyour own SR : golems would be unable to use their own abilities.

Volkov
2010-03-10, 07:55 PM
No, there isn't; the immunity explicitly functions exactly the same as SR. The check to beat it is just infinite, which does not provide immunity to things that don't have to check against SR in the first place. Like spells an SR-bearing creature casts on itself.

Demiliches have a different form of spell immunity, perhaps due to a holdover from 3.0, they are completely immune to all spells except the ones that are specifically listed as being able to affect them. Meaning that wizards who aren't expecting to fight a demilich are royally screwed.

taltamir
2010-03-10, 07:55 PM
Still, if they were immune to SR spells and you couldn't bypassyour own SR : golems would be unable to use their own abilities.

speaking of... how does a golem cast spells on itself? it is a mindless construct... sure you can use awaken, but awaken has SR so golems are automatically immune to it... (or maybe, does awaken construct specifically not allow SR unlike the other awakens?)

taltamir
2010-03-10, 07:57 PM
Demiliches have a different form of spell immunity, perhaps due to a holdover from 3.0, they are completely immune to all spells except the ones that are specifically listed as being able to affect them. Meaning that wizards who aren't expecting to fight a demilich are royally screwed.

ANYONE who isn't expecting a fight with a demilich is royally screwed... they are also immune to most forms of physical damage, and can use at will save or have your soul stolen and consumed until they have stolen a max of 6 (IIRC) souls per day.

tyckspoon
2010-03-10, 08:00 PM
speaking of... how does a golem cast spells on itself? it is a mindless construct... sure you can use awaken, but awaken has SR so golems are automatically immune to it... (or maybe, does awaken construct specifically not allow SR unlike the other awakens?)

Make it wear a Spell Storing Ring, maybe. If you want it to use it you command it to perform *trigger action* a few times before starting to smash things.

Abd al-Azrad
2010-03-11, 01:55 AM
I am well aware that there is CC and self targetted spells and buffs and spells that hurt the enemy without SR... this is completely NOT what I am asking about. I am asking how to make the enemy's SR irrelevant while still using spells that allow SR...

Fine. Aside from the numerous methods listed above to defeat enemies with ridiculous/unbeatable SR, as well as the methods to consistently defeat regular SR by boosting your checks to ridiculous levels, I can think of precisely one class ability that bypasses SR entirely.

Beguiler level 20 can use Cloaked Casting to automatically bypass an enemy's SR with a successful feint. Yay.


I myself think that the orbs of [x] are somewhat unfair, as it lets conjurers steal the shtick of evokers and do it better. Thus making all evokers utter rubbish, or even more so. I'd throw them a bone or two to prevent them from being the unchallenged bottom rung of the wizard schools.

The Orb spells are single target only. How does this never come up? Sure Evocation is frequently panned as a weak school, but if you're using Conjuration to deal damage, you might as well be throwing Save or Lose effects. Evocation does damage with ridiculous efficiency, far better than most other schools. The Orbs are neat for certain limited effects, but they don't beat a Fireball for what Fireball can do in any way, and a level sooner at that. If damage is your thing, Evocation is still, without a doubt, the best school.

It's just, damage shouldn't be your thing at all, as an arcanist. Winning should.

taltamir
2010-03-11, 04:43 AM
1. fireball starts at 5d6 @ CL5, and caps at 10d6 @ CL10; orb starts at 6d6 @ CL7 and caps at 15d6 @ CL15. That is a clear advantage. (and earlier you have the lesser orbs)
2. fireball allows reflex for half/none.
3. the area is not all that great on fireball
4. friendly fire.
5. orbs have secondary SOS effects.

Very very rarely you will come across a group of enemies huddled together for an AoE. even more rarely could you hit all of them and not your friends. when you do, an AoE CC is probably better then lots of unfocused damaged.

that being said, fireball being level 3 means you can use a lesser rod of maximize with it. Which certainly improves it a whole lot; and doesn't work for the orbs.

fireball is also the least sucky evocation DD spell.