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KingVic
2010-03-09, 09:55 PM
In Dungeonscape, in the factotum advancement section, it says that factotum is made to enter the prestige class of chameleon (races of destiny). I've always wondered if its really worth it or is a straight level 20 factotum better? Any thoughts?

Gametime
2010-03-09, 09:59 PM
Depends. Factotum is a great entry for Chameleon, but a straight factotum gets really nice class features, too. I definitely wouldn't enter Chameleon before level 8, for Cunning Surge.

A rogue can get into Chameleon without much more trouble, and gains a lot more from the class in terms of versatility.

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-10, 01:22 AM
I was playing a character with hopes of entering the Chameleon PrC and when Factotum came around, I couldn't help but feel both classes fill the same role and Factotum does it better and with less of a headache.

obnoxious
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Soranar
2010-03-10, 01:33 AM
The thing is Factotum 20 is better than 10/10 at mimicking classes. His ability let's him mimic any class features at a cost of inspiration points, while a chameleon can do so with less choices.

But chameleon is hardly a bad prestige class, it's just redundant with Factotum. And Factotums gain pretty decent class features that only they can access , unlike a Chameleon.

Draz74
2010-03-10, 01:40 AM
Huh. I'm personally a fan of the Factotum's later class features, but I expected to see this thread full of Chameleon supporters. Because Chameleon is, frankly, more powerful.

Partial arcane and divine spellcasting, with access to any spell list, is kind of amazing.

Zaq
2010-03-10, 02:36 AM
Factotum is a great class. Chameleon is a great class. However, they really don't work well together. Factotum is (at its core) a generalist; Chameleon is a serial specialist.

My favorite entry into Chameleon is a Binder/Incarnate. With so many abilities that you can change every day, you can really be whatever you want to be. It takes some effort to meet the prereqs (Disguise as a class skill is harder to come by than it looks... the feat City Slicker gets the job done, at least), but it's worth it.

Barring that, yeah, rogue always works. Bard gets in easily but gives up a lot. Lurk might be interesting, if not incredibly powerful. Swordsage would be good (also giving up a lot, but there are a lot of maneuvers that stay useful, and Chameleon really is good).

JaronK
2010-03-10, 05:12 AM
The issue you'll have is that Factotum/Chameleon is only better than pure Factotum at certain levels. You probably want to go in at Factotum 8/Chameleon X simply because Factotum 8 is such a great level that gets that much better with casting. Factotum 8/Chameleon 1 is about the same as Factotum 9... it's an extra spell per day vs a host of possible abilities, but Factotum 9 didn't have to waste a feat on Able Learner (which is normally great, but is worthless for Factotums). Also, to be a Chameleon you can't be a Whispergnome which is probably the best Factotum race (free proficiency in Quickrazors + amazing stealth? Yes please!). This means that you've been weaker for those first 8 levels too, though not by a huge amount.

At 10th level Chameleons get that tasty floating feat which is awesome for item creation and many other things. At 11th level the Factotum gets the ability to ignore SR and DR which can be just so very handy, while what the Chameleon gets isn't so hot for a Factotum. For a while after the Chameleon is looking better and better, until the best level for a Factotum/Chameleon is 18, and the F/C is clearly stronger. But level 19 rolls around and the pure Factotum has the ability to do all kinds of insane things that blow the F/C away.

So it's really quite a tossup, depending on when you're playing.

JaronK

Roc Ness
2010-03-10, 07:40 AM
Agreeing with JaronK, it depends on your level. For example, playing a game at level 19+, straight factotum is definitely the greater choice, while level at levels 12-15 you might want Factotum 5 and max Chameleon. Because chameleon caster level is 2x chameleon level, you are casting spells at level 20 at ecl 15. Suceed almost effortlessly on caster level checks, nuke enemies with super high-powered low level spells (empowered wings of flurry?), heal exhorbitant amounts of damage, etc.

Sophismata
2010-03-10, 07:42 AM
Swordsage would be good (also giving up a lot, but there are a lot of maneuvers that stay useful, and Chameleon really is good).

Hah - I just realised that Martial Stance is self-qualifying. Use your floating feat to grab Martial Study (Devoted Spirit Strike), and take Martial Stance (Devoted Spirit Stance) normally. You can change the Study feat, since a stance counts as a maneuver for prerequisites.

Tytalus
2010-03-10, 07:59 AM
JaronK has a good analysis of the power differences by level. Bottom line: for mid-level play the F/C option is looking quite nice, but not overwhelmingly so.

If you want to do both, you end up better at Factorum11/Chameleon9 than with a 10/10 spread.

A big advantage of the Chameleon is it's unique caster level progression, which gives you a caster level of 20 (or more, if you add cheese) as early as level 15. If you do go Factorum 8 first, as JaronK suggested (it's a good idea, don't get me wrong), you loose out on that quite a bit. It's still a decent combination.

T.G. Oskar
2010-03-10, 08:24 AM
It also depends on what you can do with the Chameleon's magic compared to the Factotum's Cunning Brilliance.

Factotum's level 19th class ability is a bit restrictive, and it causes you to know exactly which Extraordinary class abilities are worthwhile. Even then, they last for about a minute, and IIRC, you can't repeat the used class abilities. So, you can have Sneak Attack as a 15th level Rogue, but only for a minute a day.

Chameleon spellcasting, on the other hand, requires you to know which spells are more effective for preparing at lower levels. Going Divine and using, say, Greater Magic Weapon and Divine Power, you can do a good Fighter without even trying.

If you know spellcasting, the Chameleon option can definitely overcome Factotum's 19th level ability. Otherwise, the Factotum's Cunning Brilliance becomes far more relevant (as well as the 7th level spells). If you consider spellcasting to apply as part of the 19th level class ability, you're a cheater and you know it.

And yes, 10/10 isn't a good entry choice. Factotum 8/Chameleon 10 is very good, and allows for two other levels of anything (Binder is particularly tasty). Able Learner + Factotum (even a dip) is brutal; all skills are class skills for Factotum, so the restriction on cross-class is blown out of the water IIRC. The difference between Whisper Gnomes and non-Whisper Gnomes is one feat; Master of Masks 1 solves that, and still remains within the F/C 8/10 range of goody goodness. Then there's floating feat + Heroics, just in case. That way, you can be...I dunno, a human and have an extra feat (and be Medium) or Silverbrow Human and have an extra feat plus Featherfall (and still qualify for Able Learner), or Azurin for an extra feat and Incarnum support (and still qualify for Able Learner). Or a Changeling, which...doesn't get an extra feat, but I'm pretty sure it qualifies for Warshaper which is pretty sick...and you get Morphic Immunities at 1st level which means immune to critical hits (free Fortification!) plus Morphic Body (free +4 to Strength and Constitution) at 2nd level which apply while the Changeling is transformed, which may be 24 hours a day. Plus...natural attacks; then again, you can get (Greater) Magic Fang.

But yeah...7th level spell-like abilities from Sorc/Wiz (which I reckon count for using scrolls and wands as if you knew the spells) plus three daily chances of treating yourself as a 15th level character in another class? Priceless.

So yeah...it's your pick. I'd still go Factotum 8/Chameleon 10, if only because you can do a lot with 6th level arcane and divine spells. Now, if you could only qualify for Sublime Chord via Factotum...

Amphetryon
2010-03-10, 08:40 AM
IIRC, Factotum 18/Chameleon 2 is fairly tasty at most non-epic points.

KingVic
2010-03-10, 05:09 PM
Thanks alot guys that's all I needed to know but I've always wondered if the chameleon gets TWO level 6 spell slots if he picks Arcane and Divine magic at the same time (via double aptitude); one for his arcane and one for his divine (effectively doubling his spells per day).

Coplantor
2010-03-10, 05:23 PM
So yeah...it's your pick. I'd still go Factotum 8/Chameleon 10, if only because you can do a lot with 6th level arcane and divine spells. Now, if you could only qualify for Sublime Chord via Factotum...

Factotum spells wont do? Because facotum 8, bard 1, sublime chord 1 Ur Priest 2, mystic theurge 8 is build I had in mind. For a villian actually. 9th lvl arcane and divine spells plus that 8th level facotum ability.

Draz74
2010-03-10, 05:29 PM
Factotum spells wont do? Because facotum 8, bard 1, sublime chord 1 Ur Priest 2, mystic theurge 8 is build I had in mind. For a villian actually. 9th lvl arcane and divine spells plus that 8th level facotum ability.

Technically, the Factotum does not "cast spells" at all. He has spell-like abilities.

Pluto
2010-03-10, 05:44 PM
Thanks alot guys that's all I needed to know but I've always wondered if the chameleon gets TWO level 6 spell slots if he picks Arcane and Divine magic at the same time (via double aptitude); one for his arcane and one for his divine (effectively doubling his spells per day).
Definitely.

The real question is whether he can get two sets of level 6 spellcasting by 1) taking two focuses including Arcane Focus, 2) memorizing spells, then 3) shifting to two focuses including Divine Focus and 4) praying for a second set of spells.

(The answer probably relies on the rest of the party's builds.)

FMArthur
2010-03-10, 09:01 PM
The Chameleon prestige class advertises itself as a jack-of-all-trades sort of class, but in play you'll find it to be just a Mystic Theurge with a few other useful but not game-changing perks, since its spellcasting foci are so much more useful than its other ones, and not just because spellcasting is overpowered in general; the other foci really are seriously underwhelming.

So it's sort of nice between ECL 6 and 11, where you get to be any arcane or divine spellcaster you want to, with okay HD, skills and BAB and probably 5 levels of some skillmonkey class or another generalist class. From 12-15 you are a Mystic Theurge with more abilities and overall better stats, which is not really a bad thing (unless you've got a Mystic Theurge in your party)... but that's it. Also, it's nice that you have the option to choose others, but it's unlikely that you'll ever choose to use spell lists other than the Wizard/Sorceror list for Arcane Focus and Cleric for Divine Focus.

I guess that's my main gripe: the options presented to you are: fail utterly at being a rogue, fail utterly at being a fighter, fail utterly at being a ranger, be most of a wizard, be most of a cleric; choose any two.

I used to love this class so much (and even homebrewed a base class version with better noncasting foci), but to be honest it's not what it pretends to be (which is all kinds of ironic).

T.G. Oskar
2010-03-10, 10:16 PM
The Chameleon prestige class advertises itself as a jack-of-all-trades sort of class, but in play you'll find it to be just a Mystic Theurge with a few other useful but not game-changing perks, since its spellcasting foci are so much more useful than its other ones, and not just because spellcasting is overpowered in general; the other foci really are seriously underwhelming.

So it's sort of nice between ECL 6 and 11, where you get to be any arcane or divine spellcaster you want to, with okay HD, skills and BAB and probably 5 levels of some skillmonkey class or another generalist class. From 12-15 you are a Mystic Theurge with more abilities and overall better stats, which is not really a bad thing (unless you've got a Mystic Theurge in your party)... but that's it. Also, it's nice that you have the option to choose others, but it's unlikely that you'll ever choose to use spell lists other than the Wizard/Sorceror list for Arcane Focus and Cleric for Divine Focus.

I wouldn't deem that as bad. In fact, recall that:
--Clerics have Divine Power, which allows them to be better fighters when needed
--Wizards have Heroics, which allows them to have any needed bonus feat they desire, if only for a while
--Since it allows any spellcasting list, you can get arcane spells you want but cannot have as divine spells through the Shugenja list. You are treated as having no focus, so that allows you to get from the entire Shugenja list.
--Some spells from Paladin and Ranger are useful, and in earlier levels than in Cleric and Druid; Swift Haste comes to mind as useful Ranger spell, Mark of Doom comes to mind as useful and earlier-gotten Paladin spell.
--You have access to the Druid spell list as well. There are spells from the Druid list that the Cleric list doesn't have.
--If you wanna get acquainted: you know all those limited-spell lists of other classes? Open to you, as well.

When using the Divine or Arcane focus, you cannot think as Mystic Theurge or as a pure Cleric or Wizard. You should think a bit between the Archivist and the Sorcerer; Archivist for the amount of spells you can work out using divine spell lists from arcane spell lists (and viceversa) and Sorcerer for maximum utility spells.

Certainly...the other foci are weak; the main spellcasting foci pretty much cover what you need, and ignore what you don't (Find Traps for Stealth, full BAB for Combat).

Then, there's Use Magic Device. If you don't know how to use that properly...


I guess that's my main gripe: the options presented to you are: fail utterly at being a rogue, fail utterly at being a fighter, fail utterly at being a ranger, be most of a wizard, be most of a cleric; choose any two.

Again, if you use it as presented. We're speaking of what happens when you mix it with Factotum. Does Factotum+Chameleon do the Rogue well? Int focus + all class skills means you can get UMD from the start, UPD, Autohypnosis, Iaijutsu Focus, Tumble, and still have at least one to five extra skills to max. With human, you get six more (assuming you get an Int of 18 for both). That does the Rogue partly well: with Cunning Strike, Assassin's Stance, Nightstalker's Transformation, Hunter's Insight (IIRC; it's a Ranger spell that grants temporary sneak attack) you can work Sneak Attack well, and Find Traps + Divine Insight + Disable Device (from Factotum) + Knock, you can do the trap abilities well. Does it do a Fighter well? Floating feat + Divine Power + Transformation (as a last-ditch effort) + heavy armor proficiency (no, seriously, look at the Factotum; it has heavy armor proficiency) + Heroics, you can get to be a very basic but useful Fighter. Floating feat (Track) + Divine Insight (Survival) + ability to become invisible covers some of the stuff with Ranger, but then again you probably don't want to cover up a Ranger.

If used correctly (such as Factotum 5/Chameleon 10 or Factotum 8/Chameleon 10) you can make good work covering a lot of grounds that you couldn't cover as Factotum or Chameleon alone. You could argue that going with classes that can boost themselves well (Binder, Incarnate, Totemist) you can complement yourself even further; you can also take advantage of the Martial Adept multiclassing ability and leapfrog into very nice maneuvers (Factotum 5/Chameleon 10/Warblade or Swordsage 1, you get up to 4th level maneuvers that can up to 6th level maneuvers).

So I wouldn't say the Chameleon is bad. It...has its uses, and requires a learning curve, but it all depends on how you enter. Factotum (to a certain level), Binder, Incarnate (or Totemist) complement the Chameleon real well; other classes, not so much. You may make a point for the Bard, though. Also, depending on the levels you take, you can complement with other Prestige Classes to cover for apparent faults and add different boosts (Warshaper with Chameleon, or Master of Masks, for example).

Heck, I'd dare say it's in a way better than Mystic Theurge. In a way, of course. It all depends on how you enter (5th level Cleric/5th level Wizard/10th level MT nets you up to 7th level spells, and nowhere near the flexibility of 10 levels of Chameleon)

JaronK
2010-03-10, 10:36 PM
It also depends on what you can do with the Chameleon's magic compared to the Factotum's Cunning Brilliance.

Factotum's level 19th class ability is a bit restrictive, and it causes you to know exactly which Extraordinary class abilities are worthwhile. Even then, they last for about a minute, and IIRC, you can't repeat the used class abilities. So, you can have Sneak Attack as a 15th level Rogue, but only for a minute a day.

It would actually be of a 19th level Rogue. The ability must come from level 15 or lower, but you have the ability as though your Factotum level were your class level.

Probably the best abilities are Fighter Bonus Feats, Martial manuevers from a class, and the nastiest of all: Sorcerer/Favored Soul spellcasting. Yeah, it's Ex. Yeah, it's brutal. You could even take the Metamagic feats of a Wizard with the casting of a Sorcerer and then have fun with a few nice Persistant Spells. Or just cast Shapechange. Whatever.


If you consider spellcasting to apply as part of the 19th level class ability, you're a cheater and you know it.

It's not cheating just very powerful. Yes, spells are defined as Ex. See page 180 of the PHB and the few entries in the Monster Manual that make this clear. Your DM might cry though, and then hit you with a ban hammer.

JaronK

Rauthiss
2010-03-10, 10:42 PM
It's not cheating just very powerful. Yes, spells are defined as Ex. See page 180 of the PHB and the few entries in the Monster Manual that make this clear. Your DM might cry though, and then hit you with a ban hammer.

Could you specify where on page 180 it defines spellcasting as Ex.? I can't seem to find it.

Draxar
2010-03-10, 11:03 PM
As has been said, a Factotum is a constant generalist, a Chameleon is a serial specialist. Whether they work well together depends on what you want to do.

A Factotum Chameleon has the advantage that, as well as whatever his aspect gives him, he has his factotum generalism to fall back on, so you manage to do fairly well in one area, and not bad in all the rest.

If you want to emphasise the serial specialist more, and you can live without the added flexibility, then it's not so great.

Though the ability to stack the factotum skill bonus on top of the chameleon skill bonuses is nice, and the Able Learner prerequisite feat of Chameleons works well with the Factotums skill list of "Yes"

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-03-10, 11:25 PM
I'm currently playing a factotum/chameleon (fact 5/cham 3 so far) and am finding it a very useful combo. The campaign is mostly sneaking- and intrigue-heavy so far, so I'm relying on factotum for what combat we face (mostly ambushing people with thrown weapons using Int to attack and damage and sneak attack) and the casting foci for utility. So far it seems to me that a factotum/chameleon isn't so much combining two conflicting strategies as it is turning Arcane Dilettante up to 11.

Being a thrower in combat, I've gotten lots of use out of ranger spells on the divine side of things, and a few of the more obscure wu jen spells have come in handy as well. I've also gotten tons of use out of the floating feat--Shape Soulmeld has improved my already-amazing skillmonkeyness, Bind Vestige for Haagenti's immunity to transformation saved me when we knew we'd be fighting a basilisk, and Martial Study for Moment of Perfect Mind has been useful more than once.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-10, 11:34 PM
Hah - I just realised that Martial Stance is self-qualifying. Use your floating feat to grab Martial Study (Devoted Spirit Strike), and take Martial Stance (Devoted Spirit Stance) normally. You can change the Study feat, since a stance counts as a maneuver for prerequisites.

This would be cool, except that the floating feat can't be used to qualify for anything. Says so right in the chameleon's bonus feat class feature description.

EDIT: At least I thought that was true :smallconfused:

T.G. Oskar
2010-03-11, 01:12 AM
I'm currently playing a factotum/chameleon (fact 5/cham 3 so far) and am finding it a very useful combo. The campaign is mostly sneaking- and intrigue-heavy so far, so I'm relying on factotum for what combat we face (mostly ambushing people with thrown weapons using Int to attack and damage and sneak attack) and the casting foci for utility. So far it seems to me that a factotum/chameleon isn't so much combining two conflicting strategies as it is turning Arcane Dilettante up to 11.

Being a thrower in combat, I've gotten lots of use out of ranger spells on the divine side of things, and a few of the more obscure wu jen spells have come in handy as well. I've also gotten tons of use out of the floating feat--Shape Soulmeld has improved my already-amazing skillmonkeyness, Bind Vestige for Haagenti's immunity to transformation saved me when we knew we'd be fighting a basilisk, and Martial Study for Moment of Perfect Mind has been useful more than once.

Good tactic, though I'd fix that a bit and go with Improved Bind Vestige. You can't bind Haagenti unless you had Bind Vestige before.

Shape Soulmeld is a godsend if you have some sort of chakra binding or essentia pool (either through Azurin, which for all purposes should count as a human for purposes of Able Learner since it's basically a human, or through feats), because the soulmelds remain shaped until you change them (even if you somehow lose the feat); binding them turns much more interesting since you can gain further bonuses, and having essentia allows you to enhance those; you get a solid dabble of Incarnum through feats.

Martial Study/Stance works much better with the 1/encounter Martial scrolls and Crown of White Raven/equivalent magic item. Since you qualify for two maneuvers, you can get a decent third. On someone who depends on movement or hiding in plain sight or concealment, Child of Shadows becomes brutal; with Martial Spirit, you can recover a hefty amount of HP through attacking, and with Leading the Charge you become the fan of all uberchargers.