Is Sabine A Deamon Or A Devil? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Innis Cabal

2010-03-09, 11:49 PM

Is Sabine A Deamon Or A Devil?
Hmmm, I wonder if there has ever been a thread for this?

I wonder if the last bit was sarcasm.

Secondly. She's not a Deamon. Or a Daemon. Demon? Ya maybe.

Mystic Muse

2010-03-09, 11:50 PM

And FTR, Succibi are Devils.

aren't they demons in 3.5?

Zevox

2010-03-09, 11:51 PM

Sabine is a Succubus. Succubi are Demons. Therefore, Sabine is a Demon.

Zevox

Draconi Redfir

2010-03-09, 11:53 PM

just ask Nale what Succubi are. they are in to some crazy things, i wouldent be surprised if they ever went into some kind of "pain fetish" thing and did painful things to one another while Thoq sat outside eating icecream and listening to loud music so he wouldent know whats going on.

alternitively, she is a mix of both. one parent was a demon, the other a devil :P

Geiger Counter

2010-03-10, 12:02 AM

I seem to remember her using planeshift, that is not one of the succubi's SLAs. She's a homebrew rather nondescript fiend, likely non-chaotic.

DeltaEmil

2010-03-10, 12:06 AM

Geiger Counter

2010-03-10, 12:16 AM

Director Cedric confirms her as a Succubus working for Director Lee.

Now, the funny thing is, Lee is probably a devil...

But then we must also remember, he works with a demon and a daemon, so it shouldn't be that difficult to get other-aligned members of the fiendish race to work for you.

Can you provide the quote. Also even if she is a "succubus" that does not necessarily mean she is the same as a 3.5 or 4e succubus, see the third panel.http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/oots0273.gif

Zevox

2010-03-10, 12:21 AM

Can you provide the quote.
Comic 637 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html), panel 7.

"We first became aware of Vaarsuvius from one of our agents -"
"- a Succubus that has been working under Director Lee."

She has also been called a Succubus in commentary to one of the books, if memory serves.

Zevox

DeltaEmil

2010-03-10, 12:28 AM

Can you provide the quote. Also even if she is a "succubus" that does not necessarily mean she is the same as a 3.5 or 4e succubus, see the third panel.http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/oots0273.gifIt's on page 637. Page 380 and 668 show her as one of the agents of the Inter-Fiend Cooperation Commission.

Dr.Epic

2010-03-10, 01:16 AM

Sabine is a Succubus. Succubi are Demons. Therefore, Sabine is a Demon.

Zevox

Or to phrase it as an SAT question:

All Sabines are Succubi. All succubi are demons. We can conclude from this...

A) All demons are Sabine.
B) All Sabines are demons.
C) Belkar is awesome.
D) Both B) and C) are correct.

Killer Angel

2010-03-10, 02:33 AM

Is Sabine A Deamon Or A Devil?

You'd have your answer, but, just for info: Daemons are in WH40K. In D&D, you should refer to Demons.

A) All demons are Sabine.
B) All Sabines are demons.
C) Belkar is awesome.
D) Both B) and C) are correct.

lol. :smallbiggrin:

Faleldir

2010-03-10, 02:47 AM

aren't they demons in 3.5?
They go both ways.

Maximum Zersk

2010-03-10, 02:48 AM

They go both ways.

Bow chicka wow wow. :smallwink:

multilis

2010-03-10, 02:50 AM

She obviously doesn't fully fit succubus so probably a doppleganger spy.

DeltaEmil

2010-03-10, 02:58 AM

You'd have your answer, but, just for info: Daemons are in WH40K. In D&D, you should refer to Demons.To add to this, Daemon is a synonym for Yugoloth in D&D. It's not restricted to Warhammer Fantasy and 40k. There's also Demons (Tanar'ri mostly, but also other natural denizens of the Abyss) and Devils (majority being the Baatezu, followed by the other inhabitants of Baator).
The name changes were done to alleviate accusations of fundamental groups who decried D&D as turning children into satanists.

Killer Angel

2010-03-10, 03:09 AM

To add to this, Daemon is a synonym for Yugoloth in D&D. It's not restricted to Warhammer Fantasy and 40k.

Very true. I'm so used with the term "yugoloth", that i tend to forget that they were also called daemons.
Anyway, Sabine isn't.

hamishspence

2010-03-10, 06:04 AM

DStP confirms Lee (yellow) is a devil, Cedric (orange) is a demon, Nero (purple) is a Daemon.

And states that yes, in Sabine's case we have a devil who employs her, despite her being a demon, and in Cedric's case, we have a demon going to university with devils.

They are supposed to blur the lines between the factions.

Ancalagon

2010-03-10, 06:07 AM

As small addition so the statements from the commentary are complete:

DStP confirms Lee (yellow) is a devil, Cedric (orange) is a demon, Nero (purple) is a Daemon.
Lee is an a bit more chaotic Devil while Cedric is an a bit more lawful Demon.

They are supposed to blur the lines between the factions.
... something that is the entire point of the IFCC. It does not matter anymore who of them actually comes from where...

hamishspence

2010-03-10, 06:12 AM

Lee is an a bit more chaotic Devil while Cedric is an a bit more lawful Demon.

It also says that Nero is a bit less neutral than ordinary Daemons- though I'm not sure how that works.

Ancalagon

2010-03-10, 07:07 AM

He just covers a broader bandwidth towards both lawful and chaos? If "neutral" equals "0", chaos is a negative number and lawful positive and a "normal" neutral character goes from -5 to 5, then Nero goes from -15 to 15.

Scarlet Knight

2010-03-10, 12:13 PM

... something that is the entire point of the IFCC. It does not matter anymore who of them actually comes from where...

*Sniff* Play "Kumbaya" with me...backwards...:smallwink:

derfenrirwolv

2010-03-10, 12:30 PM

Now, the funny thing is, Lee is probably a devil...

Why do people think this is funny, much less evidence that sabine isn't a demon? Yes she's chaotic evil and her boss is lawful evil. Its the interfiend COOPORATION commission. Putting differently aligned fiends together to have them work together is the entire point of the organization. Why wouldn't a lawful evil Devil have aq chaotic evil demon underling? If you're trying to work together you don't just glue the organization together at the top, you integrate it all the way up your chain of command.

DeltaEmil

2010-03-10, 01:00 PM

Why do people think this is funny, much less evidence that sabine isn't a demon? Yes she's chaotic evil and her boss is lawful evil. Its the interfiend COOPORATION commission. Putting differently aligned fiends together to have them work together is the entire point of the organization. Why wouldn't a lawful evil Devil have aq chaotic evil demon underling? If you're trying to work together you don't just glue the organization together at the top, you integrate it all the way up your chain of command.I did mention the cooperation part and why therefore this shouldn't be surprising right afterwards.

Asta Kask

2010-03-10, 02:14 PM

Sabine is a Succubus. Succubi are Demons. Therefore, Sabine is a Demon.

Zevox

Barbara, I believe.

Optimystik

2010-03-10, 02:41 PM

You'd have your answer, but, just for info: Daemons are in WH40K. In D&D, you should refer to Demons.

D&D has Daemons (with an "a") - they are the NE fiends.

The IFCC themselves refer to "daemons" in the penultimate panel of this strip. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html)

Graymayre

2010-03-10, 04:17 PM

I'm betting that she's a cross breed of both.

Asta Kask

2010-03-10, 04:20 PM

Is Sabine A Deamon Or A Devil?

The answer is Yes.

Vaarsuvius4181

2010-03-10, 06:35 PM

I wonder if the last bit was sarcasm.

Secondly. She's not a Deamon. Or a Daemon. Demon? Ya maybe.

i think it was.

archon_huskie

2010-03-10, 07:02 PM

*Sniff* Play "Kumbaya" with me...backwards...:smallwink:

ayabmuk ,droL hO
ayabmuk ,droL ym ayabmuK
ayabmuk ,droL ym ayabmuK
ayabmuk ,droL ym ayabmuK

Lamech

2010-03-10, 07:05 PM

She is a demon. Also note the OotS demons and devils do not have the standard stats for demons and devils, so we can not gleam her ablities from the fact she is a succubi. For example, Sabine has plane shift, her energy drain seems to sap strength (keeping Durkon from moving) and not be a romantic act.

Quirinus_Obsidian

2010-03-10, 08:08 PM

Devils (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/monstersDtoDe.html#devil): Lawful Evil
Demons (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/monstersDtoDe.html#demon): Chaotic Evil
Daemons: Yugoloths. Not in SRD.

Succubus (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/monstersDtoDe.html#succubus-demon): Demon, therefore chaotic.

archon_huskie

2010-03-10, 08:19 PM

Zevox

2010-03-10, 09:49 PM

Where does it say that the OotS-verse only follows the SRD?

or in other words, please find the dashing swordsman Prestige class in the SRD please.
The Order of the Stick generally follows core D&D 3.5 rules. The SRD is a compilation of core D&D 3.5 rules. By default, the Order of the Stick can be assumed to be following the SRD unless evidence exists to the contrary. Which, in the case of Sabine being a Demon, it does not - especially if, as hamishspence posted earlier, Rich actually outright called her a Demon in commentary to Don't Split the Party while commenting on the IFCC.

The Dashing Swordsman prestige class, on the other hand, is an openly-stated homebrew creation. Quite a different matter entirely.

Zevox

DeltaEmil

2010-03-10, 09:52 PM

Where does it say that the OotS-verse only follows the SRD?

or in other words, please find the dashing swordsman Prestige class in the SRD please.Unless Rich Baker explicitely mentions the contrary or shows things in a different way (goblins being medium-sized), everything that is used in the System Reference Document is also used by him for the Order of the Stick.
Dashing Swordsman is said to be from an obscure third-party book found in a discount bin.

Some of the D&D-related gags are based on the rules and the implication of their effects if they were part of the physical laws that govern the universe of the Order of the Stick.

Kish

2010-03-10, 10:05 PM

Unless Rich Baker

Who?

explicitely mentions the contrary or shows things in a different way (goblins being medium-sized), everything that is used in the System Reference Document is also used by him for the Order of the Stick.

This is a tautology. "Everything in OotS is from the System Reference Document except the things that aren't from the System Reference Document."

Dashing Swordsman is said to be from an obscure third-party book found in a discount bin.

Passive voice alert.

Julio Scoundrel said he found an old third-party sourcebook in a discount bin.

Rich Burlew, on the other hand, said he made up the Dashing Swordsman prestige class because it fulfilled the narrative role he needed, that of making Elan semi-competent in combat. And he didn't bother to actually stat it out.

DeltaEmil

2010-03-10, 10:18 PM

Who?Bah, I totally confused Rich Burlew with Keith Baker when I was reading Start of Darkness.

This is a tautology. "Everything in OotS is from the System Reference Document except the things that aren't from the System Reference Document."And what is wrong with that?

Passive voice alert.

Julio Scoundrel said he found an old third-party sourcebook in a discount bin.

Rich Burlew, on the other hand, said he made up the Dashing Swordsman prestige class because it fulfilled the narrative role he needed, that of making Elan semi-competent in combat. And he didn't bother to actually stat it out.I was thinking about mentioning that this class was possibly made up, but decided against it because it didn't matter and seemed quite clear that it didn't exist in the real world, if Julio Scoundrel didn't mention the name (nor was there any semblance of a picture or text that might help identify it).

Scarlet Knight

2010-03-11, 09:17 AM

ayabmuk ,droL hO
ayabmuk ,droL ym ayabmuK
ayabmuk ,droL ym ayabmuK
ayabmuk ,droL ym ayabmuK

HA! I KNEW there was an infernal message! I just can't make it out... something about a "droll whore"...obvious refering to :sabine:...

Ceaon

2010-03-11, 09:34 AM

Is Sabine A Deamon Or A Devil?

The answer is Yes.
The answer is actually no; she's a demon. :smallamused:

Asta Kask

2010-03-11, 09:40 AM

The answer is actually no; she's a demon. :smallamused:

If she is a demon then she must be 'a devil' or 'a demon'. My answer was correct and unhelpful. I strive for that wherever possible.

Kish

2010-03-11, 10:24 AM

If she is a demon then she must be 'a devil' or 'a demon'.
Yes, but not "a deamon." So what she actually is wasn't one of the OP's suggestions.

...This is silly, of course.

Optimystik

2010-03-11, 10:55 AM

If she is a demon then she must be 'a devil' or 'a demon'. My answer was correct and unhelpful. I strive for that wherever possible.

Your answer was neither correct nor helpful this time around. :smalltongue:

And what is wrong with that?

Tautologies are generally useless in debate, and yours is no exception.
"Everything here is X, except those things which are not X" adds nothing of value to any discussion.

DeltaEmil

2010-03-11, 02:26 PM

Tautologies are generally useless in debate, and yours is no exception.
"Everything here is X, except those things which are not X" adds nothing of value to any discussion.It's an answer to the question if the Order of the Stick is sticking to the 3.5 System Reference Document, and nobody argues that it's wrong. If you don't like tautologies or similarly worded answers, then that's no problem of mine.
Now, discussing if tautology are good or not really adds nothing to this discussion either, but this being the internet, I'm certain that somebody will press this point on. Others might discuss if the use of such is good or not. I, however, will ignore it, and consider this out of topic. Thank you very much.

archon_huskie

2010-03-11, 10:20 PM

It's an answer to the question if the Order of the Stick is sticking to the 3.5 System Reference Document, and nobody argues that it's wrong. If you don't like tautologies or similarly worded answers, then that's no problem of mine.
Now, discussing if tautology are good or not really adds nothing to this discussion either, but this being the internet, I'm certain that somebody will press this point on. Others might discuss if the use of such is good or not. I, however, will ignore it, and consider this out of topic. Thank you very much.

Ummm there are at least three myself, Kish, and The Giant.

Remember plot first, rules a distant second.

DeltaEmil

2010-03-11, 10:54 PM

Ummm there are at least three myself, Kish, and The Giant.

Remember plot first, rules a distant second.Rich Burlew hasn't commented anything in this thread, and others have only nagged about tautologies. That's not important at all and has nothing to do with the thread in the first place. Thank you very much.

Liwen

2010-03-13, 06:31 AM

BACK TO TOPIC :

Is Sabine a deamon or a devil?

Neither, she is a Demon. And Deamon is spelled Daemon.

Is she working for a superior of opposed x-axis alignment?

Yes.

Does she possesses a few extra abilities that are not in the SRD on the Succubi entry?

Yes.

Does she possesses extra tricks in her bag, like magical items and class levels we don't know about?

Most probably. Would be a good twist.

Is she hot?

No. She's nothing but a bunch of pixels on a screen. 2d stick woman pixels.

When shall we next see her and the rest of the Linear Guild?

I sure hope soon, but probably not that soon.

Is Keith Baker Elies's 'buddy Keith' in left 4 dead 2?

Probably not. That Keith is likely covered in scars and his body distorted to the point of being inhumane.

Am I going off topic?

Yes.

It is not ironic that I am going off topic because I said 'BACK TO TOPIC' in caps at the beginning of my post?

Yes.

Am I keeping this up in the hopes of giving you guys a good lol before I sign out for the day?

That was the general idea, hope it worked.

Creed

2010-03-13, 10:28 AM

maybe she is neither, maybe she is just a human demonoligist with wings
.....pretty unlikely

Neopolis

2010-03-13, 12:27 PM

maybe she is neither, maybe she is just a human demonoligist with wings
.....pretty unlikely
Well, she's weak to either silver or cold iron, so that is pretty unlikely. :smallamused:

The Succubus

2010-03-13, 12:53 PM

Sabine - an evil extraplanar Vaarsuvius.

Ancalagon

2010-03-13, 02:41 PM

Well, she's weak to either silver or cold iron, so that is pretty unlikely. :smallamused:

I bet you are also weak vs. arrows made of cold iron or silver. ;)

archon_huskie

2010-03-13, 05:44 PM

Rich Burlew hasn't commented anything in this thread, and others have only nagged about tautologies. That's not important at all and has nothing to do with the thread in the first place. Thank you very much.

The Giant has stated numberous times that plot of the story comes before the rules of the games. that would be him agreeing.
please do better reading people's posts before you hit reply. Thank you very much.

DeltaEmil

2010-03-13, 07:49 PM

The Giant has stated numberous times that plot of the story comes before the rules of the games. that would be him agreeing.
please do better reading people's posts before you hit reply. Thank you very much.

Where does it say that the OotS-verse only follows the SRD?

or in other words, please find the dashing swordsman Prestige class in the SRD please.That was your question. I answered to it. Some other posters didn't like it, because it was tautological. Nobody dismisses it being wrong, however.
So I don't really understand why you're still arguing and being confrontational.
But I guess nothing good will come out of this particular discussion, and you're better off in my ignore list, as I would be on yours, so that we don't clash again over nothing.
Good bye, and thank you very much.

Kish

2010-03-13, 08:47 PM

That was your question. I answered to it. Some other posters didn't like it, because it was tautological. Nobody dismisses it being wrong, however.
You don't seem to get what "tautological" means. It means that an answer is technically true but contains no information. That is--"OotS follows the SRD except when it doesn't" isn't a useful thing to know, because it's equally true of everything ranging from the SRD itself to the brainwave patterns of a Renaissance-era painter. And, as an answer to, "Where does it say that the OotS-verse only follows the SRD?" "OotS follows the SRD except when it doesn't" is much closer to the answer being "nowhere" than "somewhere."

Sabine is a demon. Her alignment is clearly Something Evil. As she belongs to the IFCC (a group you'll never find in the SRD), it could potentially be Anything Evil.

Herald Alberich

2010-03-14, 01:26 PM

Does she possesses extra tricks in her bag, like magical items and class levels we don't know about?

Most probably. Would be a good twist.

I thought I read somewhere she had Rogue levels, as Haley's opposite. I recognize how vague and useless the "read somewhere" source is, but there you go.

Kish

2010-03-14, 01:35 PM

It's in her description in the beginning of one of the compilation books. I think No Cure for the Paladin Blues, but I won't swear to it.

Zevox

2010-03-14, 02:52 PM

NCftPB's Cast of Characters page does call her a "fiendish rogue," but it is perhaps best not to take that too literally. She is a little more than just "fiendish" after all, being a full-blown Demon.

Zevox

Sholos

2010-03-14, 04:54 PM

PallElendro

2010-03-14, 05:00 PM

Sabine's a fiend. Physically and "physically".

factotum

2010-03-15, 02:03 AM

It is not tautological, however, to say that there are specific times when OotS does not follow the SRD, such as the Dashing Swordsman class or Tsukiko's use of the Orb spells, but that most of the time it does.

It still doesn't help us to say that, though, because Sabine may be an instance where Rich is NOT following the SRD--we simply don't know!

Sholos

2010-03-15, 02:56 AM

It still doesn't help us to say that, though, because Sabine may be an instance where Rich is NOT following the SRD--we simply don't know!

I think it's safe to assume that, unless we see evidence to the contrary, OotS follows the SRD. Now, we've seen both Sabine using Planeshift and Sabine being referred to explicitly as a Succubus. Thus, I think it's clear that Sabine is a case where Rich is not strictly following the SRD.