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TheMinxTail
2010-03-10, 09:58 AM
Trying to script out a battle so I don't have to wing an entire small army's statistics. So right now in my campaign, there's a brewing demonic invasion, a necromancer uprising and, most pressing for the PCs at present, a seemingly randomly gathering army of the archetypical villainous humanoid races (orcs, goblins and the like). They just took down a couple plattoons of the heavy hitters, a total of six ogres, two orcs and eight goblins. Next session, probably this weekend, I'll have them work on picking off the artillery, some hired Evokers, to get them up to LV4 then have them take on the main battallion of the army. The highlight of the final encounter would be an Ogre Mage Oni, possibly with a bit of refluffing; the story reason is that the aforementioned demonic invasion is manifesting in the form of taking over weakwille and strong bodied beings, specifically the orcs and the like. It seemed the most suiting thing in teh Pathfinder Beastiery, is all.

I guess my question is; could, at level 4, a samurai-fluff Fighter (22 AC and Whirlwiing Attack), a Paladin (with Cleave and a crit range of 15-20), a dual wielding Rogue and a Conjurer (with minor speciality in illusion) hope to take on an Ogre Mage, several dozen orcs and whatever remains of the Ogre and mage forces in a single battle? I'd be sure to encourage strategic thinking, such as luring teh enemy forces into a tight space to limit their numbers' appliability like they did in 300 (I know that's not the most intellectual war movie, but whatever), and I think the fighter and summoner could handle a good few foes between them withe the right conditoions. I basically face the challenge of making a satisfying 'Boss' fight that is both realistically challenging but possible to beat. Criticism would be very helpful.

As a backup, just in case things go to bad, there's a lower mid-level Beguiler (the state 'wizard' and king's advisor) on their side who would spring from the shadows to their aid with a variety of useful spells, and who has every story reason to help out (long story, and I know one of my guys is on this site so I won't spoil too much), and could probably take on most of the army by herself (fear the Deep Slumber!), but I want the PCs to get as far as they can before she has to show up with buff spells.

My PCs just jumped from LV2 to 3 in one fight last session when they got the drop on a cave full of ogres. After fumbling (twice) on a coup de grace against one that was knocked out by Sleep, they made something up like it was the will of teh gods that they not kill each other and convinced teh ogre to join their party (until he dies). Not relevant or anythibng, but it amused me because curfue kicked in for my third player and I just randomly threw together a simple an encounter as possible.

Anyway, thanks for reading.

Arti3
2010-03-10, 10:00 AM
Chuck Norris.

TheMinxTail
2010-03-10, 10:03 AM
Chuck Norris.

Heh, well I was thinking of giving them a monk as backup. If I do, I'll name him Chuck, the roundhouse specialist. :)

Jesus, that was such an epic post taht it actually made me use a smiley...

Toliudar
2010-03-10, 10:08 AM
That grouping sounds pretty overwhelming for a group configured as you've described. Unless you structure the battle so that they only tackle a few of them at any given time, your players may be having some serious problems, Chuck or no Chuck.

TheMinxTail
2010-03-10, 10:10 AM
Probably should have made a more appropriate title. Bit late now though.

Anyway, I should mention that the PCs are jsut a strike team, as you can imagine. The royal army will do most of the heavy lifting, but what little of the orc's infrastructure exists will likely fall apart if they can defeat the leader and his personal soldiers; the idea I'll suggest to them is that thay challenge the leader to honourable combat when they reach teh enemy encampment, though I doubt they'll go for it. Hell, I probably won't even let them, not without a high DC intimidate check to assert ther worth as opponents.

TheMinxTail
2010-03-10, 10:15 AM
That grouping sounds pretty overwhelming for a group configured as you've described. Unless you structure the battle so that they only tackle a few of them at any given time, your players may be having some serious problems, Chuck or no Chuck.

Yeah, as I mentioned, I would let them systematically take on their opponents. They'll probably get a few rounds advantage on them by setting their tents on fire or something anyway. Plus the enemies are lower level and most of the PCs specialise in multi-opponent fighting anyway. I was actually going to use a Summoner, but the playtest for that was insanely overpowered (I through together an eidolon at LV4 with 9 attacks per round, and teh summoned allies are more significant than a lo of the party), but I think the conjurer that I'm using now can suffice for taking on a good few herself - or rather, summon some friends to take care of the problem for her. Plus, Colour Spray is pretty awesome at LV4.

Dyllan
2010-03-10, 10:16 AM
In a word, no, they don't have much hope of winning. Not if the enemies are played intelligently.

If the Ogre Mage opens with Cone of Cold, and makes sure the Conjurer is in the area of effect, there's a very good chance that the Conjurer is dead, even IF he makes the save. We're looking at 4+3d4+4*con HP versus an average damage of 32.5. Assuming the Conjurer has a +2 con, he'd have an average of 19.5 HP. So he'd have about a 1 in three chance of going to negatives if he makes the save, and it's instant death if he fails.

The Ogre Mage should be travelling invisible in enemy territory - he can cast that at will. So unless the Conjurer has See Invisibilty cast (assuming he knows it) before battle starts, he's done for.

One the Conjurer is dead, I doubt a level 4 party can do fire or acid damage to the Ogre Mage. That means, he regenerates 5 per round. If he gets wounded to bad, he turns invisible and flies to safety until his HP regen.

In any case, the Ogre Mage will NEVER come close enough to the ground for any melee attacks against him. There's no reason to. His longbow does 2d6 damage. He'd probably win the battle in a straight ranged weapon fight with the party, due to his regeneration and spell resistance.

And that's not even taking into consideration the rest of his unit.

Ed: Now, find a way to attack the rest without the Ogre Mage being involved, and that changes everything.

TheMinxTail
2010-03-10, 10:21 AM
In a word, no, they don't have much hope of winning. Not if the enemies are played intelligently.

If the Ogre Mage opens with Cone of Cold, and makes sure the Conjurer is in the area of effect, there's a very good chance that the Conjurer is dead, even IF he makes the save. We're looking at 4+3d4+4*con HP versus an average damage of 32.5. Assuming the Conjurer has a +2 con, he'd have an average of 19.5 HP. So he'd have about a 1 in three chance of going to negatives if he makes the save, and it's instant death if he fails.

The Ogre Mage should be travelling invisible in enemy territory - he can cast that at will. So unless the Conjurer has See Invisibilty cast (assuming he knows it) before battle starts, he's done for.

One the Conjurer is dead, I doubt a level 4 party can do fire or acid damage to the Ogre Mage. That means, he regenerates 5 per round. If he gets wounded to bad, he turns invisible and flies to safety until his HP regen.

In any case, the Ogre Mage will NEVER come close enough to the ground for any melee attacks against him. There's no reason to. His longbow does 2d6 damage. He'd probably win the battle in a straight ranged weapon fight with the party, due to his regeneration and spell resistance.

And that's not even taking into consideration the rest of his unit.

Ed: Now, find a way to attack the rest without the Ogre Mage being involved, and that changes everything.

Yeah, you're totally right, the Cone of Cold is a big issue. The more I read this entry the less possible it seems. How about this as an alternative though; an Ogre with the Half-Fiend Template and a few levels in, we'll say, Fighter? I think the fluff might work just as well, but what do you think, would that make it too easy, or what?

TheMinxTail
2010-03-10, 10:28 AM
Ed: Now, find a way to attack the rest without the Ogre Mage being involved, and that changes everything.

How'd you mean? Do you mean attack the army without the Ogre Mage? I'll assume so. I control the conjurer (partly because my guys need a DMPC or two to pad out numbers, small group, partly because no one else in teh group could handle summon stats), so I think I could use a smart strategy to handle a large crowd. But what do you think about that? I guess the real question besides teh Ogre Mage situation is what sort of forces besides teh big one I should have.

TheMinxTail
2010-03-10, 10:41 AM
Hmm... I thought up a battle plan. Tell me what you think.

The PCs use nonlethal force on the hired wizards of the enemy army, then use diplomacy to earn a favour before they leave; weaving illusions, along with the conjurer, to convince the Ogre Mage that his forces are revolting against him. Some physical assault will also occur (charm person on ogres, summon monster, etc.), enough to make him panic at least a tad, specifically used to force him to cast his cone of cold and gaseous form for the day. After that, when the Oni retreats to a safe spot and before he returns, the PCs go about setting fire to the enemy encampment and mopping up any ogres who didn't get killed in teh crossfire of the illusory fight. After that, they might be able to sufficiently gang up on the Oni. Flaming Greatsword and Orb of Fire into submission. What do you think? Any good, even plausible? Or would it deprive it of any epicness?

Edit: Oh yeah, Beguiler ally uses Halt to stick the Oni's legs to the ground.

Lapak
2010-03-10, 10:52 AM
I'd be very, very cautious about arranging a scenario that requires that the PCs adopt a particular battle plan in order to have a chance of achieving their goals. Either you end up railroading them through the encounter and take away meaningful choice - it's not really tactical play if you're telling them to do X, then Y, then Z - or there's a VERY real chance that they will adopt another plan entirely or miss some critical component of the thing you expect them to do.

You're better off making sure that the threat is scaled in such a way that a variety of different approaches are at least possible roads to victory. The Ogre Mage, for this particular party, is not such a threat.

TheMinxTail
2010-03-10, 11:11 AM
I'd be very, very cautious about arranging a scenario that requires that the PCs adopt a particular battle plan in order to have a chance of achieving their goals. Either you end up railroading them through the encounter and take away meaningful choice - it's not really tactical play if you're telling them to do X, then Y, then Z - or there's a VERY real chance that they will adopt another plan entirely or miss some critical component of the thing you expect them to do.

You're better off making sure that the threat is scaled in such a way that a variety of different approaches are at least possible roads to victory. The Ogre Mage, for this particular party, is not such a threat.

Yeah, screw it, consider the Ogre Mage scrapped. How's this? Ogre (4 racial HD) Fighter 2/Barbarian 1 with a Fiendish Template.

HP 65 (4d8 + 1d12 + 2d10 + 23), AC 17, Reach/Space 10 ft., Speed 40 ft., +1 Greatclub +12/+7 (2d8+8). Feats: Weapon Focus, Toughnss, Iron Will, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave. Rage 6 rounds/day. Smite Good 1/day, SR 8.

Any good?