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Morquard
2010-03-10, 10:46 AM
Do familiars of wizard or sorcerers in Pathfinder gain feats and skills the higher they go?

All familiars you can choose normaly (without the Improved Familiar Feat) are CR 1/8 to CR 1/2 animals with 1 HD.
But on becoming a familiar they have the HD of the caster (well caster-level anyway). They also become Magical Beasts instead of Animals

So say a level 8 wizard has a familiar, would that one gain 3 more feats? (3rd, 5th, 7th level).

How about skills? Since the familiars Int is always increasing how many Skillpoints would they get per level? Till level 8 they would apperently get only one skillpoint per level (2+int mod, and with level 8 they have -1) (if they even get skills), but with level 9 they get 10 Int, and would get 2 skillpoints now. Do they get that extra skill retroactively for all 8 levels before, or just from now on?

Their damage apperently never increases (well they're not really combat pets, so thats ok).

Soranar
2010-03-10, 10:56 AM
if I remember right familiars don't have HD , thus they don't have feats

as for skills I give you SRD

Skills

For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the masterís skill ranks, whichever are better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiarís total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiarís ability to use.

Morquard
2010-03-10, 11:00 AM
if I remember right familiars don't have HD , thus they don't have feats

Hm, just read the description for familiars again, seems they only get the Master's HD "For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice", but they don't really get HD (I guess I mixed it up with the Animal Companions, which gain HD over time)

Nero24200
2010-03-10, 11:01 AM
No they would not. Any time a character or creature gains HD or class levels they also gain skill points and, if appropraite, feats as well. In the case of familier's they would gain skill points, Hit points, save increases and BAB increases as per the magical beast entry (which is to say, D10 hit dice, full BAB, Good Fort and Ref and 2 + int skill points per HD).

It should be noted however that the familier's HD does not increase - It simply count's as having the master's for the purposes of other things (like spell's such as Sleep which only specifically target creatures of certain hit dice).

Yuki Akuma
2010-03-10, 11:07 AM
Familiars don't get HD as their master levels up. They just get treated as having HD for the purposes of spells and other effects that specifically target creatures with certain amounts of HD.

Animal companions and special mounts, though, do gain HD, and therefore gain feats and skill points.

Thurbane
2010-03-10, 08:26 PM
Got a related question here (I once asked it in the Q&A thread, but didn't get an answer): a familiar is treated as having HD equal to it's master for "effects". Would this include templates that have scaling abilities with HD, like celestial or fiendish?

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-10, 09:47 PM
I wouldn't think so, since those are HD dependent abilities not spells or magical effects.

Jack_Simth
2010-03-10, 10:05 PM
Got a related question here (I once asked it in the Q&A thread, but didn't get an answer): a familiar is treated as having HD equal to it's master for "effects". Would this include templates that have scaling abilities with HD, like celestial or fiendish?
Technically? Up for grabs, ask your DM. It's not exactly broken to spend A Feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedFamiliar) to give your familiar the Celestial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/celestialCreature.htm) or Fiendish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fiendishCreature.htm) template, and letting it get the ... resistance 5 or 10 to two or three energy types (depending on level), and DR/Magic depending on level. Most of the alternate Improved Familars are stronger than the standard familiars + Celestial/Fiendish template.

Thurbane
2010-03-11, 12:54 AM
Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the masterís character level or the familiarís normal HD total, whichever is higher.
It doesn't actually say "magical effects"...though I'm not sure if it means "effects" as in the English language use of the word, or "Effects" as in status effects.

If it's the former, there's a strong argument for allowing template based progression. I know it's OK from a balance standpoint, but I'm interested in whether it's RAW or not.

deuxhero
2010-03-11, 12:57 AM
Nope, it says (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/basic-classes/wizard) "for the purposes of", and that it still has the normal ammount of hit dice.


Play a manifester if you want to do whatever it is you are doing. Psi crystals actually gain hit dice proper (construct HD, but HD) plus they are easily replaced if destroyed and don't blow up your XP.

ericgrau
2010-03-11, 10:41 AM
It doesn't actually say "magical effects"...though I'm not sure if it means "effects" as in the English language use of the word, or "Effects" as in status effects.

If it's the former, there's a strong argument for allowing template based progression. I know it's OK from a balance standpoint, but I'm interested in whether it's RAW or not.

I presume it could also include non-magical effects if any exist, like Ex abilities. However templates are not effects in this sense.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-11, 12:27 PM
I'd say if your spending a feat to simply make your familiar a celestial/fiendish creature its probably fair to let it scale.

The Glyphstone
2010-03-11, 12:29 PM
For some reason I think I saw an article once on feats designed for familiars, but that may just be wishful thinking.

I'd say that if the feat only affects the familiar (directly), then I'd allow it. If it affects the wizard directly (the familiar's feat gives the caster more spells, for example), I wouldn't.

There was a Dragon April Fool's article with Cat familiar-related feats, but they weren't something the familiar had, they were feats taken by the owner that applied to its familiar.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-11, 12:36 PM
and let's all bow our heads and thank Vecna, Boccob, and Corelleon that familiars don't get feats, or there'd be cheese like familiars taking Leadership, and gaining another mage with a familiar with leadership........................................ .................................................

John Campbell
2010-03-11, 12:51 PM
and let's all bow our heads and thank Vecna, Boccob, and Corelleon that familiars don't get feats, or there'd be cheese like familiars taking Leadership, and gaining another mage with a familiar with leadership...

Animal companions and paladin mounts can do that anyway.

Sadly, my DM has explicitly forbidden my ranger's wolf companion from taking Leadership. I was going to get him a pack.

Volthawk
2010-03-11, 02:44 PM
Animal companions and paladin mounts can do that anyway.

Sadly, my DM has explicitly forbidden my ranger's wolf companion from taking Leadership. I was going to get him a pack.

Shame. That sounds kinda cool.

Thurbane
2010-03-11, 03:43 PM
Again, yes, I know it would be balanced. I was looking for a RAW definition. This is not for an actual character, I'm seeking a rules definition. In this particular case, I would be the DM, and the character an NPC. I know I can use DM fiat to rule however I like, but I would like to be clear on the RAW before I do so.

I'm not sure why "for the purposes of" would be a disqualifier...if it specifically read "for the purposes of abilities based on templates" then it would work. I don't think "for the purpose of" is the sticking point, it's which usage of the word "effect" that is the issue.

The wording is a bit vague - I'm not 100% convinced it means "effects" solely in the D&D term of "status effects". If it's the general English usage of the word "effect", it can be argued the SR, energy resistance etc. are indeed effects. It seems my reading of it is in the minority, however.

Jack_Simth
2010-03-11, 05:33 PM
Play a manifester if you want to do whatever it is you are doing. Psi crystals actually gain hit dice proper (construct HD, but HD) plus they are easily replaced if destroyed and don't blow up your XP.
Are they? Tell me: Where do you find the rules for replacing a destroyed Psicrystal? I'd like a page reference, if you can.

deuxhero
2010-03-11, 07:27 PM
May have been mistaken.

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-11, 07:37 PM
Again, yes, I know it would be balanced. I was looking for a RAW definition. This is not for an actual character, I'm seeking a rules definition. In this particular case, I would be the DM, and the character an NPC. I know I can use DM fiat to rule however I like, but I would like to be clear on the RAW before I do so.

I'm not sure why "for the purposes of" would be a disqualifier...if it specifically read "for the purposes of abilities based on templates" then it would work. I don't think "for the purpose of" is the sticking point, it's which usage of the word "effect" that is the issue.

The wording is a bit vague - I'm not 100% convinced it means "effects" solely in the D&D term of "status effects". If it's the general English usage of the word "effect", it can be argued the SR, energy resistance etc. are indeed effects. It seems my reading of it is in the minority, however.

No. A familiar is one of those creatures from a list of familiars. That list does not include templated versions of those creatures. Compare to summon monster's lists, which do contain templated (and untemplated) creatures. Celestial and Fiendish templates are not normally available for familiars.

I realize this answers a slightly different question, but the outcome is the same.

Furthermore, I believe that 'abilities granted based on HD' are 'abilities' and not 'effects'.

Edit: "For the purposes of" seems to be used as a disqualifier throughout many books and the SRD.

obnoxious
sig

Jack_Simth
2010-03-11, 07:43 PM
No. A familiar is one of those creatures from a list of familiars. That list does not include templated versions of those creatures. Compare to summon monster's lists, which do contain templated (and untemplated) creatures. Celestial and Fiendish templates are not normally available for familiars.
Not really, as it immediately becomes relevant if a Wizard takes the Improved Familiar feat at 3rd level. And Improved Familiar is Core.

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-11, 07:45 PM
Not really, as it immediately becomes relevant if a Wizard takes the Improved Familiar feat at 3rd level. And Improved Familiar is Core.

My mistake. I don't know why I thought the lists didn't include templated creatures.

It seems the solution would be to find a character in an official source that has the improved familiar feat and see what abilities it has.

Edit: Judging by the example Alienist in Complete Arcane, familiars do gain additional template abilities based on HD, as the pseudonatural toad has the abilities of a 10 HD pseudonatural creature.

obnoxious
sig

Thurbane
2010-03-11, 08:16 PM
May have been mistaken.
Yeah, sorry if my reply seemed a bit snippy. It's hard to convey tone with text.


Edit: Judging by the example Alienist in Complete Arcane, familiars do gain additional template abilities based on HD, as the pseudonatural toad has the abilities of a 10 HD pseudonatural creature.
Excellent, that was the justification I was looking for.

What actually prompted this question is the Fiend Blooded PrC, which allows the character to apply the Fiendish template to his familiar for free...looking at the sample character's familiar, I now see that the same rule appears to apply there (Fiendish Toad has DR 5/magic). I should have picked up on this before. :smallredface:

Thanks to all for your input and suggestions. :smallsmile:

Mark Hall
2010-03-12, 11:07 AM
Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher.

I'd say that familiars get feats, and can pick any they can handle.

Yuki Akuma
2010-03-12, 11:23 AM
Are they? Tell me: Where do you find the rules for replacing a destroyed Psicrystal? I'd like a page reference, if you can.

No page reference required. It's a feat. When your psicrystal is destroyed, you still qualify for the feat, so you regain its benefit.

It has no clause saying what happens when your psicrystal dies, so it's just treated like any other feat.