Exposing a Cheater

[Shyftir]

So here is the thing, one of my really good friends is cheating at D&D. He claims either his max roll or sometimes more even when he rolls low.

He's cheated as a DM causing a character death, and more times as a PC than we can count.

Everyone knows and we want to call him out on it, but we want to not hurt his feelings. We all still love and care about him but the cheating is hurting our friendships.

Do you guys have any good suggestions of how to call him out without ticking him off?

[AtwasAwamps]

Fire is the only solution!

Honestly, I don't know. My solution to these things is to sigh and nod and if it gets uncontrollable, put the person in a situation where he can't possibly get away with it...in that he'd have to roll in full sight of everyone.

[DabblerWizard]

So here is the thing, one of my really good friends is cheating at D&D. He claims either his max roll or sometimes more even when he rolls low.

He's cheated as a DM causing a character death, and more times as a PC than we can count.

Everyone knows and we want to call him out on it, but we want to not hurt his feelings. We all still love and care about him but the cheating is hurting our friendships.

Do you guys have any good suggestions of how to call him out without ticking him off?

Ooo. Pick me. Pick me. I must have given this same advice at least a dozen times on these forums. (That was slightly hyperbolic).

Use something called assertion, or the assertive model, or "I'm going to talk to you calmly, and express myself how I need to without offending you, so there"

Here are the steps that you can arrange in whichever order you'd like: (1) State the behavior that you don't like; (2) State how it affects you; (3) State how you're going to react if it continues

Step (4), which isn't always necessary, is actually following up on what you said you'd do in step (3).

Example: "Dude. You cheat and none of us like it. We can't stand it in fact. You need to stop cheating or you can't play with us (or whatever consequence you and or the group accepts)"

It really depends on who is speaking, and whether the speaker represents the group or just himself. If you only speak for yourself, then you can only realistically promise a behavior that you yourself can keep.

Edit: A better example, that doesn't involve telling the person how they should act (which goes beyond the model, but can still be useful), and instead just focuses on how you'll react. All in one sentence.

"Your cheating really bothers me and I'm going to stop inviting you to my gaming sessions if it continues."

Edit 2: This kind of model can be used in multiple situations. Let's say your friend starts yelling at you because you used the model to express your dislike of his cheating.

You can say: "You're yelling at me, and I won't stand for it / I don't like being yelled at, and if it continues I'm going to walk away"

Sometimes it can help to repeat yourself a few times in case a person is acting less than calm and pleasant. If they continue yelling anyway, for instance, then walk away.

Edit 3: The purpose of this model is to help its user remain calm and mature even in the face of hostility. Not everyone needs this kind of structure, but some people are just... not easy to get along with.

[Killer Angel]

For when he's DMing:
all of you, as a group of players, could propose: let's roll all the dice in the open, most of all yours: it will add tension to the game, and if we die for a unlucky roll, well, that's life!

[BRC]

The best method is probably a unified confrontation, be open and honest.

The other method is the Table Turn method, start cheating when he's DMing, when he calls you on it put on your best innocent face and say "Oh, well since you cehat, I just assumed it was okay".

[AtwasAwamps]

Nobody ever goes with my "fire" method.

I even have great one liners for it!

Okay, sorry. I just know how frustrating this situation can be and I like to insert some humor into it.

Completely seriously, if its hurting your friendships, you just have to talk to him about. Expect butt-hurt. Expect denial. Expect anger and self-righteousness. We're human, all of us, and we fight sometimes.

But you guys still care about him as a friend. That's the important part. Let him know that cheating at something you guys really like to do is hurting that and that you don't want that hurt. If he cares about you guys as much as you do him...you'll be alright.

[Delta]

The other method is the Table Turn method, start cheating when he's DMing, when he calls you on it put on your best innocent face and say "Oh, well since you cehat, I just assumed it was okay".

That, in my opinion, would be one of the worst ways to handle it. It's almost guaranteed to lead to confrontation, heated arguments and bitterness.

[DabblerWizard]

The best method is probably a unified confrontation, be open and honest.

The other method is the Table Turn method, start cheating when he's DMing, when he calls you on it put on your best innocent face and say "Oh, well since you cehat, I just assumed it was okay".

Confrontations can turn really hostile and aggressive. That's not how I'd want to treat my friends, even annoying ones. But yes, honesty, and openness is important.

Your table turn method is problematic partially because of its long time delay factor, and because the snarky, sarcastic remark is both immature and just likely to make him angry, not give him an opportunity to change his behavior.

Just in case you were being sarcastic: I missed it! I rolled a 1 on my sense motive / insight check. I'm sorry!!! :smallredface: :smallwink:

[DabblerWizard]

Nobody ever goes with my "fire" method.

I even have great one liners for it!

Okay, sorry. I just know how frustrating this situation can be and I like to insert some humor into it.

Completely seriously, if its hurting your friendships, you just have to talk to him about. Expect butt-hurt. Expect denial. Expect anger and self-righteousness. We're human, all of us, and we fight sometimes.

But you guys still care about him as a friend. That's the important part. Let him know that cheating at something you guys really like to do is hurting that and that you don't want that hurt. If he cares about you guys as much as you do him...you'll be alright.

I agree with this post.




most of all yours: it will add tension to the game, and if we die for a unlucky roll, well, that's life!

I'm not sure if this was in reference to my post specifically, but if it was, though being assertive can make some people feel a bit tense if it's directed towards them, the rest of the group is already feeling tense about this player's cheating. At least this new tension will lead towards a conclusion that changes the current bad situation.

[BRC]

Confrontations can turn really hostile and aggressive. That's not how I'd want to treat my friends, even annoying ones. But yes, honesty, and openness is important.

Your table turn method is problematic partially because of its long time delay factor, and because the snarky, sarcastic remark is both immature and just likely to make him angry, not give him an opportunity to change his behavior.

Just in case you were being sarcastic: I missed it! I rolled a 1 on my sense motive / insight check. I'm sorry!!! :smallredface: :smallwink:

I did say an open honest confrontation was the best method. I'm not talking about accusing him, I'm talking about saying "Hey, listen, we know you are cheating and we want you to stop". Your goal is not to punish him for cheating, but to get him to stop, that's why its' important that the entire group is there. If he knows for sure that EVERYBODY knows that he's cheating, and is not okay with it. Yes, it can get messy, but it's really the best method. Peer pressure can be a powerful force, use it for good here.

Another method is to approach him individually, but that's not any more likely to work, and more likely to go wrong. If you approach him as a group, he feels isolated, however, if you make it VERY clear that he can end that isolation by not cheating, he will hopefully take that. If you approach him as an individual, he may feel persecute. Also, you aren't in a more powerful position if you approach him alone.

Table Turn was indeed sarcastic. I had given it a different name before, but I realized the swear filter would have blocked it.

[Dyllan]

The best method is probably a unified confrontation, be open and honest.

The other method is the Table Turn method, start cheating when he's DMing, when he calls you on it put on your best innocent face and say "Oh, well since you cehat, I just assumed it was okay".

Horrible, horrible idea. That just gives him a reason to feel justified in his cheating, and likely suspect that you've been cheating for much longer than you do.

First of all, I wouldn't even mention him cheating as a DM. While you may disagree with his methods, and may even be right to do so, it is the DM's prerogative to cheat if he thinks it is what is best for the game (even if he is wrong). The player's prerogative is not to play in his games, but you don't want to get his cheating as a player tied up with his actions as a DM, because one is indefensible, while the other can be argued to be appropriate.

Just remember, anyone who's accused of cheating is going to be upset and defensive. Doubly so if they're guilty. However you approach it, be as non-accusatory as possible, while still making it clear that you know what he's doing.

[Stubbed Tongue]

Are you absolutely certain he's cheating? Once this gets rolling you don't want to be wrong. He may be uncertain on a particular game mechanic. Or he may be reacting to his perception (correct or incorrect as it may be) that he is being cheated by the DM or the players.

Ask the DM to impose rolling out it the open. Problem solved. If he rolls a 3 and with his modifiers it would end up being say...a 9 and he says a 19 just laugh and say "no way dude, what are your bonuses?"

I put cheaters of pass-time games right up there with scum that don't pay gambling debts. There is no call for that.

[Tyndmyr]

We use a simpler method. "Dude, you rolled a three."

[MlleRouge]

Keep in mind that if you confront him as a group, he may feel 'ganged up on' and get backed into a corner, becoming defensive.

Whether the individual or the group approach is 'correct' likely depends on his personality. Some people react (or overreact) to different things. Honesty is important, though.

Either way, don't let him continue. I let some cheating slide in a game that I ran once, thinking it was no big deal and knowing he was the type of guy to get his feelings hurt. However, the guilty player started doing it more and more. It eventually went from "Can I get away with this?" to a "Hah! She's stupid and doesn't even notice!" type of vibe, at which point I *did* put a stop to it. In hindsight, I think the situation would have been less stressful if I'd just dealt with it when I first saw it....which is what I do now.

[PhoenixRivers]

Agreed. I'd focus on the cheating as a player. If you don't like how he DM's, don't play in his games. If you don't like how he plays, the DM can make rules to stop it.

I prefer the "all players roll in the open" rule. It's not confrontational. If the cheater objects on a trust issue ("what, you don't trust us"), then you come out with something to the effect of, "frankly, no. Not all of you, at least. I've noted a rather disturbing tendency for one player to average very high rolls, some higher than even the best die roll would allow. I don't want to point any fingers, but I'm also not going to tolerate it at my table. So, in order to make sure it doesn't continue to happen, all player rolls are up front, and in the open."

[Thefurmonger]

We use a simpler method. "Dude, you rolled a three."

This. Just this, stop it before it becomes a problem. Has always worked for our games

[valadil]

We use a simpler method. "Dude, you rolled a three."

I've seen dense players ignore this one. Knew a guy who rerolled anything lower than a 5. I tried to tell him we were playing d20, not d16+4, but that was lost on him. The GM did the right thing (IMO) which was to rule that any time this player rerolled it was an automatic failure. But the guy kept doing it. Even after his natural three was a success he'd roll again to try and do better invalidating the first roll. I don't know if he ever stopped doing it because that game ended and I haven't been back to that group.

[Dr Bwaa]

I've seen dense players ignore this one. Knew a guy who rerolled anything lower than a 5. I tried to tell him we were playing d20, not d16+4, but that was lost on him. The GM did the right thing (IMO) which was to rule that any time this player rerolled it was an automatic failure. But the guy kept doing it. Even after his natural three was a success he'd roll again to try and do better invalidating the first roll. I don't know if he ever stopped doing it because that game ended and I haven't been back to that group.

That's impressive. Good reaction from the GM, though.

[valadil]

That's impressive. Good reaction from the GM, though.

Yeah, I still agree with the GM. It's not always that easy with cheaters though. This one told us when he didn't like his roll. Instead of rerolling he could have lied and we wouldn't have known which rolls to ignore.

[Tyndmyr]

I've seen dense players ignore this one. Knew a guy who rerolled anything lower than a 5. I tried to tell him we were playing d20, not d16+4, but that was lost on him. The GM did the right thing (IMO) which was to rule that any time this player rerolled it was an automatic failure. But the guy kept doing it. Even after his natural three was a success he'd roll again to try and do better invalidating the first roll. I don't know if he ever stopped doing it because that game ended and I haven't been back to that group.

Stupidity at certain levels is entirely unsolvable. If you tell him repeatedly that he can't just reroll until he likes the results, but he ignores you and does so anyhow, eventually the "don't play with them" option comes up.

[Starscream]

When he cheats, have everybody stare at him until he gets uncomfortable. Works every time.

[tcrudisi]

This is a very sensitive topic for many people. Quite a few feel that relationships are "open" until married, at which point then they will settle down and make a commitment to only one person. Others feel that when they achieve the boyfriend/girlfriend status they have entered into a monogamous relationship. The best way to deal with it is to have the uncomfortable conversation at the start of the relationship. Something like, "I realize that we are now boyfriend/girlfriend, but does this mean we are also monogamous? I've had a partner in the past that didn't feel this way, so I just want to make sure we are on the same page."

However, once they have started cheating, the only real option is to light them on fire. +1 for AtwasAwamps.

(kidding, although when I read the thread title, I was wondering why this was in the RPG section of this forum)

[Shyftir]

Ty for advice, the current plan is to run a one-shot with pre-made characters for which the dm has a copy of the sheets. When the inevitable roll fudging happens she's planning on calling him on it. We've moved to using a table instead of just sitting around the room because of his behavior and he still fudges his rolls. If the current plan fails i think having an "intervention" is next. Thanks again everybody.

[DabblerWizard]

Agreed. I'd focus on the cheating as a player. If you don't like how he DM's, don't play in his games. If you don't like how he plays, the DM can make rules to stop it.

I prefer the "all players roll in the open" rule. It's not confrontational. If the cheater objects on a trust issue ("what, you don't trust us"), then you come out with something to the effect of, "frankly, no. Not all of you, at least. I've noted a rather disturbing tendency for one player to average very high rolls, some higher than even the best die roll would allow. I don't want to point any fingers, but I'm also not going to tolerate it at my table. So, in order to make sure it doesn't continue to happen, all player rolls are up front, and in the open."

I appreciate the non-confrontational nature of your approach PhoenixRivers.

On the other hand, being honest and up front with the specific person that is bothering me, can help reduce my irritation towards them. I think not being able to call them out, would leave me with some unresolved, lingering frustration, which does no one any good.

[randomhero00]

Just be certain he is cheating. I've run into people that are:
1. really bad at math
2. confused about mods/rules
3. misread their die (depends on certain dice, some are really hard to read)
4. Really, really lucky streaks
5. Don't consider it cheating/the may not like rolling dice (this is a roleplaying game after all, not everyone plays for combat, they may feel that if their character rolls low that they have a non-heroic character)
6 etc. There are countless reasons. I'm sure they're out there, but I've never run into an actual full fledged cheater before. They've always had a reason, so be sure to ask, rather than yelling "cheater!" Just say, "You rolled a 3, how did you get a 19?"

[AtwasAwamps]

Just be certain he is cheating. I've run into people that are:

5. Don't consider it cheating/the may not like rolling dice (this is a roleplaying game after all, not everyone plays for combat, they may feel that if their character rolls low that they have a non-heroic character)


That is still totally c heating.

[randomhero00]

That is still totally c heating.

Perhaps to you, but this is a malleable game. To others (a minority to be sure) it may not be seen as cheating. A change in perspective can make a murderer into a savior. I think it is not much of a leap in perspective in a game that has no true winners or losers to see it differently.

[Kylarra]

Perhaps to you, but this is a malleable game. To others (a minority to be sure) it may not be seen as cheating. A change in perspective can make a murderer into a savior. I think it is not much of a leap in perspective in a game that has no true winners or losers to see it differently.Er violating the rules is cheating by definition... Regardless of perspective, by agreeing to play by rules and then willfully violating them, you're cheating.

[Killer Angel]

I'm not sure if this was in reference to my post specifically, but if it was, though being assertive can make some people feel a bit tense if it's directed towards them, the rest of the group is already feeling tense about this player's cheating. At least this new tension will lead towards a conclusion that changes the current bad situation.

It wasn't, it was a suggestion for the OP.
My idea is that all the players know of the DM cheating, so the "tension to the game", is not to really add tension, but it's an excuse to trick the DM to roll his dice in the open.
On the contrary, the tension about the cheating, will vanish.

[AtwasAwamps]

Perhaps to you, but this is a malleable game. To others (a minority to be sure) it may not be seen as cheating. A change in perspective can make a murderer into a savior. I think it is not much of a leap in perspective in a game that has no true winners or losers to see it differently.

And I think saying "I choose not to follow the rules" in a game that has rules is cheating?

Here's the thing. If you decide not to decide to abide by the roll of a die in a tabletop game that provides the rules for using them, then why are you playing the game? Freeform RP exists, is just as fun if RPing is your thing, and honestly gives more leeway for creativity and fun stories and heroic characters IF that is all you're looking for.

You pick up a rulebook and dice because you want to play a game in addition to that.

If your group thinks differently, that's fine, but you're playing a different game. You changed the rules. In that case, yeah, it's not cheating. But otherwise? If the DM and Players obey the tacit and implied agreement of cracking open a rulebook.

CHEATEYFACE.

EDIT: Also can we avoid the whole "murdering people vs. dnd" comparisons? That's just gonna get awkward.

[rokar4life]

This topic seems to come up quite a bit. Perhaps we need a sticky?

[BRC]

This topic seems to come up quite a bit. Perhaps we need a sticky?
meh, it's not frequent enough to be sticky-worth, and if they unstickied the RAW Q&A thread, I doubt they'll sticky "Handling Cheaters".
Plus, each situation has it's own variables. Does the person KNOW somebody is cheating, or do they just think they are. Does the rest of the group know. Is this a DM occasionally fudging the dice even though the general group consensus is against that. Maybe it's a player who just knows some slick dice rolling techniques. Is it a frequent occurrence, or does it occur vary rarely (Like a PC cheating on a saving throw to stop their own death).