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Lysander
2010-03-10, 03:52 PM
Another silly hypothetical question.

You take a pair of ring gates. You hold one, a friend holds the other. You cast reduce person on yourself to make all your equipment (including the ring you're holding) shrink. Now your ring gate can fit through its counterpart. You put it through the other ring gate, which means it should come out of itself. What happens?

pffh
2010-03-10, 03:59 PM
You get hit by the DMG and a lot of catgirls die.

vampire2948
2010-03-10, 04:02 PM
Use the usual bag of holding + portable hole effects?

Ravens_cry
2010-03-10, 04:06 PM
You get hit by the DMG and a lot of catgirls die.
The former is a small price to pay for the latter.:smallamused:

OldTrees
2010-03-10, 04:26 PM
Ring gates have an IN side and an Out side

Pair of Ring Gates: Gate 1 and Gate 2


G1 (In side down) goes into G2I

G1 instantaneously exits G1O
G1O is still at G2
G1 is now going (Out Side down) into G2I

G1 instantaneously exits G1O
G1O is now at G1O is now at G1O ...

IMHO
You now have a single gate that has two sides (Into the recursively defined location and Out of the recursively defined location)

Effectively you would have an thin one way Tunnel of Holding that can hold an unknown volume in an unknown environment.

Eldonauran
2010-03-10, 04:27 PM
Since the two ring gates are attuned to each other and only work in a pair, I would rule that either both rings are affected by the spell, or neither.

No catgirls have to die today

Dyllan
2010-03-10, 04:32 PM
As a DM, I would rule that the magic of the gates prevents one from being placed into the other. It physically won't go in.

Beelzebub1111
2010-03-10, 04:34 PM
Two words can solve this problem: No effect.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-10, 04:44 PM
Shrinking one half already leads to the basic question of what happens when an object goes through? If it starts from the non-shrunk end does it get shrunk? If not, what happens if it can't fit out the shrunk end?

Simpler to just say that both ends get smaller.

subject42
2010-03-10, 04:50 PM
I think it would kill you with topology.


If you start by sticking your arm through a ring gate, it will stick out the other side.

If you shrink the gate, then hold the ring in your hand, then stick it through the gate with your arm, your arm will come out of your hand, which is in the gate, which is in your hand, which is in the gate.

Since your hand is already in the gate, which is in your hand, your flesh would simultaneously be occupying the same place twice, and that's going to be uncomfortable if you try to move too much.

LibraryOgre
2010-03-10, 04:51 PM
You slide into an alternate universe where all coin flips had the opposite result.

krossbow
2010-03-10, 04:51 PM
I'm going to side with both rings shrink.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-10, 04:52 PM
I think it would kill you with topology.


If you start by sticking your arm through a ring gate, it will stick out the other side.

If you shrink the gate, then hold the ring in your hand, then stick it through the gate with your arm, your arm will come out of your hand, which is in the gate, which is in your hand, which is in the gate.

Since your hand is already in the gate, which is in your hand, your flesh would simultaneously be occupying the same place twice, and that's going to be uncomfortable if you try to move too much.

That's why you throw the shrunk gate into the other gate rather than toss it in.

Otodetu
2010-03-10, 05:05 PM
It will re-size in the air.

Lysander
2010-03-10, 05:07 PM
It will re-size in the air.

This sounds like a good time for a handle animal check, a pet monkey, and a casting of reduce animal.

subject42
2010-03-10, 05:22 PM
That's why you throw the shrunk gate into the other gate rather than toss it in.

If my logic is correct, wouldn't it result in the ring gates extruding themselves into a sphere?

JoshuaZ
2010-03-10, 05:31 PM
If my logic is correct, wouldn't it result in the ring gates extruding themselves into a sphere?

I don't see how that follows from your logic.

I think you may actually end up with a 5 dimensional analogy of a Klein bottle assuming that the path to connect is through the 4th dimension. I've never been very good with topology and haven't taken a course in it for a few semesters. And actual objects don't work this way- you can't move a space through itself so I'm not sure what exactly these transformations are analogous to.

Dyllan
2010-03-10, 05:35 PM
I still think the "it can't be pushed through" route is the simplest. And if you try to put something in that can't fit out of the smaller ring, it also can't fit through. It just pushes, as if pushing against a solid object.

Icewraith
2010-03-10, 05:43 PM
I'd argue that the interconnection between the gates would almost require them being static in size. Either both gates shrink (you're holding half of a magic item, to shrink the ring gates you need to have the spell hit both gates or the magic travels across the connection and affects both gates) or neither one does (because of the task for which the gates were made, they are immune to shape-changing magic, similar to an immovable rod's absolute position in space when activated making it immobile)

By the way, you could make an argument for an immovable rod allowing for localized space to have the characteristic of absolute position, leading to local gravitational collapse :)

Ravens_cry
2010-03-10, 05:50 PM
By the way, you could make an argument for an immovable rod allowing for localized space to have the characteristic of absolute position, leading to local gravitational collapse :)
No you can't. They ARE movable, it's just really, really, hard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#immovableRod). They no more create an absolute position then superglue does.

ericgrau
2010-03-10, 05:55 PM
You summon fluthlu: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=4&p=000942 :smallbiggrin:

Actually I don't think one portal should be allowed to be a different size from the other and still have them connected. Either they need to disconnect or their size needs to match.

Tackyhillbillu
2010-03-10, 06:01 PM
That doesn't solve anything. Because the measurement is given in a mesure of weight, instead of mass, it is dependent on the gravatational field to define 800 Pounds, or for that matter, ground.

Theoretically, you could suspend an entire planet on the the Rod.

Ravens_cry
2010-03-10, 06:07 PM
That doesn't solve anything. Because the measurement is given in a mesure of weight, instead of mass, it is dependent on the gravatational field to define 800 Pounds, or for that matter, ground.

Theoretically, you could suspend an entire planet on the the Rod.
I like that logic, but changing it's position, albeit at 10 feet per round, is merely a matter of strength. A DC 30 strength check to be more or less precise.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-10, 06:12 PM
IMO, it turns the Ring Gates into a Mobious Strip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%B6bius_strip), and stuff can't go through that very easily.

Tackyhillbillu
2010-03-10, 06:16 PM
I like that logic, but changing it's position, albeit at 10 feet per round, is merely a matter of strength. A DC 30 strength check to be more or less precise.

But does a planet have a strength rating?

DC 30 is a defined quantity, but weight isn't.

Ravens_cry
2010-03-10, 06:25 PM
But does a planet have a strength rating?

DC 30 is a defined quantity, but weight isn't.
Irrelevant, as a strong enough creature can merely move it. If it was really immovable, as in creating an absolute position, this would not be possible. Just because by RAW it can stop a planet doesn't mean it creates some cat-girl killing absolute position.

jseah
2010-03-10, 06:29 PM
Depends on what you interpret ring gates as doing. If gravitons exist and they are transmitted by the ring gates, then shrinking one side of the gate causes some crazy **** to happen.

The gravitational field lines (imaginary ones) will compress out one gate, causing a field of higher gravity. (magnitude proportional to 1g * ratio of gate sizes)

The field lines will try to connect as you try to put one gate into the other. And as the lines get more and more compressed into the remaining area, building up into a very strange space between the two gates.

Which will store energy (I think) and to put that energy there, you have to provide it. (since you moved the gate)
The energy goes to infinity as inter-gate distance approaches 0. Good luck. You'll break the gates first.

-----------------------

That said, if gravity is a local distortion of space time, then the gates don't transmit gravity (if you interpret them as changing what a straight line is)

Then you have a very strange problem. The "straight" line leading from one gate into the other and back out to the start again disappears when the surfaces of the gates touch.

Assuming your gate is a geometric construct and thus invulnerable/retaining its relative shape, what you end up with when you put Gate A into Gate B is a pair of concentric rings of Gate-A-inside-Gate-A.
Well, actually that only applies if you're putting Gate A's input2 face into Gate's B's input1 face. (input2 is the same face as exit2, same with input1/exit1. While things put into Input1 on one gate come out on Exit1 on the other gate)

Putting the input1 face of Gate A into the input1 face of Gate B causes a... goodness knows. Infinite recursion of Gate-A-in-Gate-A-in-Gate-A-...
Oh look, it's actually quite simple. Trace the "straight lines" in space and you get the answer. It's an infinite recursion that get's smaller at each stage until 0 size. A bit like how a snail shell spirals inward, the space spirals inward inside itself.

I created a diagram to help explain. The shrunken Gate creates this situation when placed flush with the non-shrunk Gate's entrance. I moved the shrunk Gate outwards in order to make the dots visible.
The dots on the Gate are the same dot. (the blue dot is equivalent to all three blue dot positions, as well as the green and yellow dots)
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh47/jon_seah/ConcentricRingGates.jpg

Radiun
2010-03-10, 06:39 PM
"The ring falls through the bigger ring. Their magic is negated when they are not true twins"

jseah
2010-03-10, 06:52 PM
Even more fun:

The air pressure on a 50% area gate is 50% that of the pressure on the other gate.

Which means that air blows out the shrunk gate as if pushed by (100 - X) % of atmospheric pressure. (where X is the percentage of area that the smaller gate is of the bigger one)

Super expensive gust of wind. XD

JoshuaZ
2010-03-10, 06:54 PM
jseah, your analysis seems correct.

Tiki Snakes
2010-03-10, 07:13 PM
Personally, I'm going to say that if you pop one ring through the other, it simply...goes in. If you're holding onto it, you might be able to pull it out. Otherwise, it simply...is gone.

If you then try to put anything else through, it doesn't function, because it's no longer a pair.

Also, depending on how I feel, the effect could instantly end, the moment one ring goes inside the other. This would sever anything sticking through at the time, including fingers etc.

Je dit Viola
2010-03-10, 07:30 PM
I think it could be really cool and a good adventure if the gate somehow led to a mirror universe, forcing an 'evil twins' campaign.

However, that explanation's illogical, and would require a lot of work on the DM's part.

The other explanations people have come up with make more sense.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-10, 08:04 PM
I vote planar rift to the astral. The logic there being that most things that create instant travel (eg: teleport spells, gate, etc..) do so by creating a tunnel through the astral plane. At least that's what MotP says.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-10, 08:08 PM
Even MORE fun. The larger gate is deep underwater.

Super expensive Decanter of endless water!

subject42
2010-03-10, 08:15 PM
Awesomeness, complete with graphical aids.

This is why I love this forum.

taltamir
2010-03-10, 08:22 PM
OP, you get a BSOD and the universe reboots.
very nice observation there op...

I would say:
1. If you shrink / enlarge a ring gate, the other also shrinks/enlarges, or they lose their teleport ability while shrunk.
2. if you put one into the other, nothing happens.

Also, I should note that you do NOT need to shrink the gate to do this because they are RINGS. Take two identical rings, try putting one into the other, while it will not enter FULLY, it will enter partially. So you can enter one gate into its reciprocal partially (nearly to mid point)

Tyndmyr
2010-03-11, 01:21 PM
That doesn't solve anything. Because the measurement is given in a mesure of weight, instead of mass, it is dependent on the gravatational field to define 800 Pounds, or for that matter, ground.

Theoretically, you could suspend an entire planet on the the Rod.

Nah, according to SBG, they support 10k lbs. RAW supercedes physics.

Indon
2010-03-11, 01:32 PM
Hmm.

Say you take the bigger ring and drop the smaller ring into it. The smaller ring swiftly but smoothly vanishes and appears next to its' previous location.

If the ring has failsafes to prevent objects from being severed when teleported into it, this happens once and the ring just falls through, having adjusted its' own position slightly. If the ring lacks such failsafes, then the ring is potentially ripped apart by teleporting partly into the other ring's gate. Considering that objects only partly put through the ring does not seem to trigger them, this is likely the case.

Lysander
2010-03-11, 01:43 PM
Even MORE fun. The larger gate is deep underwater.

Super expensive Decanter of endless water!

Except only 100lb of material can go through each day. So it would taper off pretty quick unfortunately.

Flickerdart
2010-03-11, 01:58 PM
OP, you get a BSOD and the universe reboots.
very nice observation there op...

I would say:
1. If you shrink / enlarge a ring gate, the other also shrinks/enlarges, or they lose their teleport ability while shrunk.
2. if you put one into the other, nothing happens.

Also, I should note that you do NOT need to shrink the gate to do this because they are RINGS. Take two identical rings, try putting one into the other, while it will not enter FULLY, it will enter partially. So you can enter one gate into its reciprocal partially (nearly to mid point)
But partial entry doesn't break anything: exactly the same amount of Ring A that you put in comes out of itself. This makes sense. It's only when Ring A has to completely come out of itself that everything breaks, because Ring A doesn't actually exist outside Ring B anymore.

taltamir
2010-03-11, 02:44 PM
But partial entry doesn't break anything: exactly the same amount of Ring A that you put in comes out of itself. This makes sense. It's only when Ring A has to completely come out of itself that everything breaks, because Ring A doesn't actually exist outside Ring B anymore.

at first, yes... but as you push it in further it reintersects the event horizon and have to come out of itself twice, reintersecting, and so on.
that is, as it is coming out of itself, the part coming out reintersects the original ring.

Although, I am not sure that will happen, it could just get stuck in itself earlier and pull out harmlessly. I'd have to do some simulations to see if it happens as I think it will.
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/8035/ringproblem.png

ericgrau
2010-03-11, 02:45 PM
So I made a precise 2D drawing with ring 1 and ring 2 at the same angle in the 3rd dimension (so everything remains lines in 2D). Ring 1 enters ring 2, comes out of ring 1 (itself), enters ring 2 again, comes out of ring 1 again, enters ring 1 this time, then exits ring 2 in a direction parallel to ring 1's original orientation. So after much confusing geometry ring 1 goes in 1 side of ring 2 and comes out the other side of ring 2, a bit to the side but in its original orientation. It was confusing so feel free to try it yourself and see if you get the same answer. If so the universe is safe... for now.

http://ericgrau.fileave.com/ring_gates.gif

jseah
2010-03-12, 02:54 AM
Taltamir, Ericgrau:
I thought the OP was asking about the question when the angle between the rings is 0*?

(taltamir did 90, Ericgrau did something that looks like 60*)

taltamir
2010-03-12, 03:40 AM
Taltamir, Ericgrau:
I thought the OP was asking about the question when the angle between the rings is 0*?

(taltamir did 90, Ericgrau did something that looks like 60*)

yea, the op put them into each other at 0 degrees after having shrunk or enlarged one.
We were trying to see what happens if you stick one inside the other partially without shrinking/enlarging... we know its not what the op asked.

Fortuna
2010-03-12, 04:23 AM
To those saying that it is impossible to do the shrinking: we can use relativistic speeds to get the same effect if you insist (a natural 20 has to happen eventually!)

taltamir
2010-03-12, 06:00 AM
To those saying that it is impossible to do the shrinking: we can use relativistic speeds to get the same effect if you insist (a natural 20 has to happen eventually!)

can you please clarify?

Indon
2010-03-12, 09:45 AM
Taltamir, Ericgrau:
I thought the OP was asking about the question when the angle between the rings is 0*?

(taltamir did 90, Ericgrau did something that looks like 60*)

Is it being dropped 'out' side first?

If it's being dropped 'in' side first, then it simply springs out of itself repeatedly and essentally perpetually falls into the other ring.

Benejeseret
2010-03-12, 12:59 PM
Someone mentioned Immovable Rod.

Let's use it with the rings - then what?

Say the rod is in place and 'immovable' in the air and you pass ring A over the rod, engulfing it so that it comes out of ring B.

However, if ring B is not moving then the rod cannot move out of Ring B as the rod is in fact 'immovable'

Fortuna
2010-03-12, 01:52 PM
can you please clarify?

When one object is moving at an appereciable fraction of the speed of light relative to another, their relative masses and volumes are distorted. We can use that to achieve a shrinking effect in at least one dimension, which is all we need to get a ring through the other one.

ericgrau
2010-03-12, 02:23 PM
Is it being dropped 'out' side first?

If it's being dropped 'in' side first, then it simply springs out of itself repeatedly and essentally perpetually falls into the other ring.

Well, it's more like it gets stuck in the other ring as it returns to the same spot it fell from.