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View Full Version : Archivist vs. Wizard: Who wins?



Fortuna
2010-03-11, 12:52 AM
Assume three situations for this, at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20.

1. Straight one-on-one arena combat. A hemisphere with radius 1000' feet, impenetrable by normal means.

2. The same arena as 1, but with a party of Fighter McFighter, Sneaky the Rogue, and Your Friendly Neighbourhood Heal-and-Buffbot Cleric to help out.

3. The two learn of each other's existance at the exact same moment, just before preparing spells for the day. The hunt is on!

Gametime
2010-03-11, 12:59 AM
Assuming unlimited scroll access, I imagine it would come down to whether or not Archivists are allowed to scribe wizard scrolls into their prayerbooks based on various ways of making arcane spells "count" as divine.

If Archivists are limited to normal divine classes, I think they'd win before level 15, but the wizard would dominate afterwards.

Nohwl
2010-03-11, 01:01 AM
what books are allowed?

Fortuna
2010-03-11, 01:02 AM
Assume all books, full WBL, and permit buying any scrolls for both parties.

Pluto
2010-03-11, 01:08 AM
Prestige classes?

Because that's the main thing going for a Wizard, given that just about any spell can wind up in the Archivist's book one way or another.

Fortuna
2010-03-11, 01:09 AM
Any prestige classes, but no multiclassing (like you'd want to, but needed saying).

Superglucose
2010-03-11, 01:13 AM
Incantatrix for the win?

nolispe
2010-03-11, 01:22 AM
As the arcane fanatic that triggered the construction of this thread, I would like to second that.

TaintedLight
2010-03-11, 01:23 AM
Incantatrix for the win?

Man, suddenly my computer reeks of cheese :p.

Azernak0
2010-03-11, 01:25 AM
It either breaks down to "which person is more creative with contingent defenses?" or a vicious game of rocket tag. Whoever goes first is likely to win. X goes first, Y casts Celerity, X counters with Celerity, Plane Shift to a Genesis created Plane where time is 1,000,000 times faster and begin Gating in all the Solars in the Universe.

The winner between the two? No idea.
The loser? Who ever is between the two!

Optimystik
2010-03-11, 01:32 AM
Due to their similarly expansive spell lists, I'd give a straight Archivist the edge over a straight Wizard, due to class features (specifically, Dread Secret.) Stun the wizard as a move action, no save, no SR, leaving his standard and swift actions free to initiate lockdown.

PrCs muddy the issue - the Wizard qualifies for most of his, while the Archivist faces many hurdles to overcome (no turning, no domains, no wildshape, no trackless step etc.) And generally, Wizard PrCs are better; furthermore, a wizard loses nothing from diving in as soon as possible, but an Archivist is faced with a tradeoff.

arguskos
2010-03-11, 01:35 AM
No matter who wins, we all lose. It'd be a hell of a show, though.

Pluto
2010-03-11, 01:36 AM
That makes this a wrestling match between Arcane and Divine PrC's.

(Both classes have access to every spell effect and the ability to research limitless new ones. The Wizard has an advantage in this exercise by way of his bonus feats and Abrupt Jaunt/familiar/animal companion, but with Sword of the Arcane Order, the Archivist has more diverse built-in spell access.)

I think the Incantatrix and War Weaver beat just about anything, including the Dweomerkeeper, that Divine Spellcasting has to offer.

So I'd lean toward the Wizard at every level, but I would hesitate to pretend that meant anything.

arguskos
2010-03-11, 01:43 AM
(Both classes have access to every spell effect and the ability to research limitless new ones. The Wizard has an advantage in this exercise by way of his bonus feats and Abrupt Jaunt/familiar/animal companion, but with Sword of the Arcane Order, the Archivist has more diverse built-in spell access.)
Actually, I have a question. Is there a way for a Wizard to get Druid-only spells such as Creeping Cold? If so, how is this done? I can't figure out any way to do it, but REALLY LIKE Creeping Cold and Splinterbolt, and want them as arcane spells for a specific NPC. :smallconfused:

Defiant
2010-03-11, 01:51 AM
It either breaks down to "which person is more creative with contingent defenses?" or a vicious game of rocket tag. Whoever goes first is likely to win. X goes first, Y casts Celerity, X counters with Celerity, Plane Shift to a Genesis created Plane where time is 1,000,000 times faster and begin Gating in all the Solars in the Universe.

The winner between the two? No idea.
The loser? Who ever is between the two!

This elicited a hearty laugh from me :smallbiggrin:

faceroll
2010-03-11, 01:52 AM
The wizard will, on average, go first at levels 1, 5 and 10, because he will have a slight feat advantage (war wizard ACF for imp initiative, then picking up blooded and other +2 init feats), as well as being able to cast nerveskitter out of a 1st level spell slot instead of a 3rd (the archivist has to use anyspell to get it), and then at 10th, when the wizard can cast celerity out of a 4th level slot instead of a 6th level slot (the archivist needs greater anyspell to cast it).

The wizard can avoid the dark knowledge stun by not being a dragon, aberration, or undead, though I think that comes into play at level 14.

The wizard also has less MAD, giving him slightly more HP/saves/dex, and better class feature support, like domain wizard, elf generalist, focused specialist, and collegiate, which give him an advantage in spells known/wbl/spells per day. These differences matter much less above level 10, when the number of spells and WBL are truly vast.

Devils_Advocate
2010-03-11, 02:17 AM
20th level: Using their powerful divinations, stupendous Intelligence scores, and mastery of game theory, the wizard and the archivist realize that they have more to gain by working together, team up, and conquer the world in accordance with the Credo of Optimal Choice: "To truly know the right path is to be compelled to walk it."

Pluto
2010-03-11, 02:41 AM
Actually, I have a question. Is there a way for a Wizard to get Druid-only spells such as Creeping Cold? If so, how is this done? I can't figure out any way to do it, but REALLY LIKE Creeping Cold and Splinterbolt, and want them as arcane spells for a specific NPC. :smallconfused:
One way: Spontaneous Divinations (CC) + Drake Helms (Explorer's Handbook) can get you any arcane spell. Any scroll - whether typically arcane or divine - bought from a Warlock, Geomancer or Southern Magician can be arcane. Those scrolls can be used to calibrate the Drake Helm. This isn't practical in a campaign, but it can work in an arena setting.

Or RAW Polymorph, according to K's interpretation. But that's even more abusive. At least have the decency to use Assume Supernatural Ability or Shapechange.

In a campaign environment, Wizards can use indirect means like Summoning, Planar Binding and Domination to generate spell effects. (If there's a spell, there's an Outsider or Elemental that can cast it.) If you want to be the one casting the spell, the BoED has rules for Binding Outsiders.


The most practical way is to independantly research a modified version of the effect you want.

There's also UMD, but that's not really a Wizard's strength. Without PrC's anyway.

arguskos
2010-03-11, 02:47 AM
One way: Spontaneous Divinations (CC) + Drake Helms (Explorer's Handbook) can get you any arcane spell. Any scroll - whether typically arcane or divine - bought from a Warlock, Geomancer or Southern Magician can be arcane. Those scrolls can be used to calibrate the Drake Helm.

Or RAW Polymorph, according to K's interpretation. But that's even more abusive. At least have the decency to use Assume Supernatural Ability or Shapechange.

In a campaign environment, Wizards can use indirect means like Summoning, Planar Binding and Domination to generate spell effects. (If there's a spell, there's an Outsider or Elemental that can cast it.) If you want to be the one casting the spell, the BoED has rules for Binding Outsiders.

There's also UMD, but that's not really a Wizard's strength. Without PrC's anyway.
I kinda meant as a spell known in their spellbook, for metamagic silliness later. The Drake Helm trick seems like it might be the thing I'm looking for though. I COULD just give the NPC in question an arcane version of both and call it custom researched, but if my players ask, I do like to have a way for it to be done.

Thanks though, I appreciate it.

Petrocorus
2010-03-11, 03:52 AM
One way: Spontaneous Divinations (CC) + Drake Helms (Explorer's Handbook) can get you any arcane spell. Any scroll - whether typically arcane or divine - bought from a Warlock, Geomancer or Southern Magician can be arcane. Those scrolls can be used to calibrate the Drake Helm. This isn't practical in a campaign, but it can work in an arena setting.


On the other way, how an archivist get arcane spell?

Wings of Peace
2010-03-11, 03:56 AM
Assume all books, full WBL, and permit buying any scrolls for both parties.

Assuming full scroll hacking then I think they have the same spell list. Or are we assuming the merchants they purchase scrolls from do not in fact have levels/feats invested in things that let them jumble around what type of spell they scribe scrolls as?

Superglucose
2010-03-11, 04:19 AM
That makes this a wrestling match between Arcane and Divine PrC's.

(Both classes have access to every spell effect and the ability to research limitless new ones. The Wizard has an advantage in this exercise by way of his bonus feats and Abrupt Jaunt/familiar/animal companion, but with Sword of the Arcane Order, the Archivist has more diverse built-in spell access.)

I think the Incantatrix and War Weaver beat just about anything, including the Dweomerkeeper, that Divine Spellcasting has to offer.

So I'd lean toward the Wizard at every level, but I would hesitate to pretend that meant anything.
Yeah that's pretty much how I feel too. I think that generally, Divine PrCs tend to be the equivalent of close to, say, Master Specialist: they add to the class a fair amount of power. Arcane PrCs on the other hand go from Green Star Adept (LOL!) to Initiate of the Seven Fold Cheese (... quite powerful indeed, my dear friends).

Then there's Incantatrix, which is like "I get your stacked nightsticks as a class feature!" "Oh man look at that, Arcane Thesis on every spell!"

Volkov
2010-03-11, 06:37 AM
20th level: Using their powerful divinations, stupendous Intelligence scores, and mastery of game theory, the wizard and the archivist realize that they have more to gain by working together, team up, and conquer the world in accordance with the Credo of Optimal Choice: "To truly know the right path is to be compelled to walk it."

Then pun-pun comes in and kicks both of their rears.

Analytica
2010-03-11, 06:46 AM
Actually, I have a question. Is there a way for a Wizard to get Druid-only spells such as Creeping Cold? If so, how is this done? I can't figure out any way to do it, but REALLY LIKE Creeping Cold and Splinterbolt, and want them as arcane spells for a specific NPC.

The most legal way is probably to take levels in Wyrm Wizard. Recaster or Fiend-Blooded works too, the former for any spells, the latter for some classes of spells. You can get divinations off any list from Unseen Seer.

Roderick_BR
2010-03-11, 07:30 AM
It either breaks down to "which person is more creative with contingent defenses?" or a vicious game of rocket tag. Whoever goes first is likely to win. X goes first, Y casts Celerity, X counters with Celerity, Plane Shift to a Genesis created Plane where time is 1,000,000 times faster and begin Gating in all the Solars in the Universe.

The winner between the two? No idea.
The loser? Who ever is between the two!
Or around. Or within the same plane of existence, at least.

Amiel
2010-03-11, 07:40 AM
Rocks fall; literally. We all die.


Depends on how much access the archivist has to spell options. If allowed unfettered access, the archivist could potentially out-spell the wizard.

peacenlove
2010-03-11, 08:20 AM
Or around. Or within the same plane of existence, at least.

Transdimensional spell multiplies the devastation caused :smallbiggrin:

On a serious note, since they are both aware of each other, how scry and die tactics would work for each one? Sending simulacrums and Shadow Weave Magic illusions to test the rival's defenses? Who would be better in a war of attrition? I don't think its a war that would last rounds at the very least.

Eldariel
2010-03-11, 08:39 AM
1st level, Wizard. Abrupt Jaunt is just that good. 5th level, probably Wizard still. Abrupt Jaunt is still that good. Though Silence is a big one for Archivist. It's just that unfortunately, Abrupt Jaunt happens to sorta trump that. 10th level, whoever took Tainted Scholar.

Hm, I guess you could get it by 5 if you really cared. But yeah, who took the Scholar won. Alternatively, if either PAOd into Beholder or Illithid and decided it's time to Beholder Mage/Illithid Savant it up. Barring Tier -1 classes, I'd give the edge around 10 to Wizard, still. Incantatrix has already kicked to full gear, but Dweomerkeeper is still a bit lacking (not to mention, entering Dweomerkeeper as an Archivist is non-trivial as you don't have Domains).

Archivist is prolly DMMing to his heart's content, but Inc just has more gas. Also, Archivist's spell availability on crap like Celerity is a bit restricted. Abrupt Jaunt loses relevant around 10 though. Though Archivist's Divine Spell access helps a lot at this point. On 15, I'd give Archivist the edge if he gets into Dweomerkeeper and Wizard doesn't since he can do sickness with Supernatural Spell and Wizard just can't counter it (tho do mind, it's not impossible for a Wizard to enter Dweomerkeeper). On level 20, Prolly...umm, yeah.


Note that Dark Knowledge doesn't really work on Humanoids so that's not very relevant.

Optimystik
2010-03-11, 09:02 AM
Yes, I was mistaken about Dread Secret - however, it keeps the Wizard from polymorphing/shapechanging, because it works on just about everything but animals, humanoids, fey, oozes and constructs.

Archivists are not as MAD as they seem - They get plenty of spells, Will is a strong save, and they get Still Mind, so dumping Wis is not a huge problem. They can get by fine with a 10 or 12.

Wabbajack
2010-03-11, 09:47 AM
Wait, I thought Archivists could get Celerity as 4th level spell, because of Divine Bards...

Eldariel
2010-03-11, 10:30 AM
Wait, I thought Archivists could get Celerity as 4th level spell, because of Divine Bards...

Yeah, this is true. It's slightly harder for them to gain than Wizards tho. Every Wizard-spell is also an Archivist-spell due to Alternative Source Spell, but Wizard has easier access to them on those levels.

deuxhero
2010-03-11, 10:31 AM
Archivist has to depend on the DM, Wizard doesn't. Wizard wins.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-11, 11:42 AM
I say wizard, because Familiars FTW (No seriously, I DON'T want an Angry Mob headed to Indiana, thanks).

Wizard has a way to add distance between the Archivist and himself with any flying familiar (my fave is still a red dragon wyrmling ;3), the Archivist is essentially fighting 2 casters (if done right, like, oh, polymorphing the familiar into some big nasty Dragon with FULL SORCERER SPELLCASTING) and one can channel touch spells into the other.

Archivist can't do that.

Wizard wins

Oslecamo
2010-03-11, 11:46 AM
Wizard has a way to add distance between the Archivist and himself with any flying familiar (my fave is still a red dragon wyrmling ;3), the Archivist is essentially fighting 2 casters (if done right, like, oh, polymorphing the familiar into some big nasty Dragon with FULL SORCERER SPELLCASTING) and one can channel touch spells into the other.


Dragons don't have fullspellcasting, they lag severly behind sorcerors. Even cr 20-21 dragons just get level 6 spells. And they have so many extra HD that good luck polymorphing into any dragon with decent spellcasting.

Ethergaunts would work tough.

But then it comes to whoever can cheese out more cheesy followers. Wich leads to tippy verse war.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-11, 11:49 AM
Dragons don't have fullspellcasting, they lag severly behind sorcerors. Even cr 20-21 dragons just get level 6 spells. And they have so many extra HD that good luck polymorphing into any dragon with decent spellcasting.

Ethergaunts would work tough.

But then it comes to whoever can cheese out more cheesy followers. Wich leads to tippy verse war.

okay okay! Jeezus.

I was just mentioning that a familiar kicks most creatures (or the archivist's) buttocks. And seriously? Why not polymorph your familiar into a Spellweaver and just have it touch the archivist with 6 spells?

Oslecamo
2010-03-11, 11:55 AM
I was just mentioning that a familiar kicks most creatures (or the archivist's) buttocks. And seriously? Why not polymorph your familiar into a Spellweaver and just have it touch the archivist with 6 spells?

Because the familiar dying means you lose a butload of exp. Wich will probably lead to level loss. Wich means losing caster level and higher spell slots. Wich will leave you in a very bad situation against the archivist. And altough a wizard can buff himself to hell and back, buffing the familiar while the familiar is away (in wich case it loses shared spells) is much harder.

Sure, you can cheese out your familiar, but it's much less risky to cheese out an expendable minion, and the archivist can do that as well.

Also, there is a feat out there to get familiars just like a wizard if I'm not mistaken.

tyckspoon
2010-03-11, 11:55 AM
I say wizard, because Familiars FTW (No seriously, I DON'T want an Angry Mob headed to Indiana, thanks).

Wizard has a way to add distance between the Archivist and himself with any flying familiar (my fave is still a red dragon wyrmling ;3), the Archivist is essentially fighting 2 casters (if done right, like, oh, polymorphing the familiar into some big nasty Dragon with FULL SORCERER SPELLCASTING) and one can channel touch spells into the other.

Archivist can't do that.

Wizard wins

Severely inefficient way to do it. Just learn Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability (level..4 spell, IIRC). Lets you transfer spells into your Familiar to be cast. Polymorphing your Familiar is more for the gishly tactic of 'Me and my familiar are both Hydras, we nom you.' Or maybe Shapechanging both of you into Solars/Dire Tortoises/Shadesteel Golems for the level 20 fight.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-11, 12:04 PM
I'm just saying wizard has backup without leadership, ect. Thats all. Heck, with the right feats and spells, one's familiar can be untouchable and deal insane damage

faceroll
2010-03-11, 12:59 PM
Archivists are not as MAD as they seem - They get plenty of spells, Will is a strong save, and they get Still Mind, so dumping Wis is not a huge problem. They can get by fine with a 10 or 12.

At levels 1 through 10, it will be a huge problem, as the wizard will get about 50% more spells. Having 1 or 2 fourth level spells in a mage duel is a problem, because you just won't have that many buffs. You can supplement with WBL, but that just means the wizard's got better gear because he doesn't have to burn it on scrolls.


Wait, I thought Archivists could get Celerity as 4th level spell, because of Divine Bards...

Oh, nice.


Yeah, this is true. It's slightly harder for them to gain than Wizards tho. Every Wizard-spell is also an Archivist-spell due to Alternative Source Spell, but Wizard has easier access to them on those levels.

Hmmm, then the biggest difference will be in WBL between the two, since the archivist has to buy most of his good spells and a BBB won't do anything for him.


Severely inefficient way to do it. Just learn Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability (level..4 spell, IIRC). Lets you transfer spells into your Familiar to be cast. Polymorphing your Familiar is more for the gishly tactic of 'Me and my familiar are both Hydras, we nom you.' Or maybe Shapechanging both of you into Solars/Dire Tortoises/Shadesteel Golems for the level 20 fight.

Get an undead familiar and spellstitch the lil rascal.

Optimystik
2010-03-11, 01:13 PM
Dread Secret will work on familiars (Magical Beasts and Outsiders are covered) and is only a move action, leaving the Archivist's standard and swifts free to cast. This won't help the Archivist until level 11, but can somewhat even the scales.

It will have to be rocket tag though, because the Archivist can heal away anything less.

Ernir
2010-03-11, 01:26 PM
Eh, this may be (somewhat) less true at the lower levels, but if you're talking about a 20 vs. 20 match between an optimized Wizard and an optimized Archivist... I don't think there's any way to predict the outcome. The value of the Wizard and Archivist class features are entirely eclipsed by that of spell access at that level. And both of them can access just about Any Spell Ever. So I don't think this is as much a cage match as it is the philosophical question of what happens when two omniscient and omnipotent beings disagree with one another.


EDIT: On second thought... I do have a prediction as for how this would go. Neither could win, because both have made themselves immune to everything. :smalltongue:

faceroll
2010-03-11, 01:46 PM
Dread Secret will work on familiars (Magical Beasts and Outsiders are covered) and is only a move action, leaving the Archivist's standard and swifts free to cast. This won't help the Archivist until level 11, but can somewhat even the scales.

It will have to be rocket tag though, because the Archivist can heal away anything less.

Not if he dumps wisdom. Under level 13 or so, he just won't have the offensive, defensive, and utility slots available. Actually, if he gets really creative with getting dispel magic as a first level spell, etc. spell slots won't be as big a deal.

How is the archivist persisting his stuff without metamagic effect? DMM?

Optimystik
2010-03-11, 01:55 PM
Not if he dumps wisdom. Under level 13 or so, he just won't have the offensive, defensive, and utility slots available. Actually, if he gets really creative with getting dispel magic as a first level spell, etc. spell slots won't be as big a deal.

As you yourself mentioned, he can cheese with Divine Bard, Paladin etc. to get some spells way earlier than he should, freeing up his higher slots. He also gets Autoquicken on many spells via the paladin feat Battle Blessing (CChamp).


How is the archivist persisting his stuff without metamagic effect? DMM?

Without Turn Undead, he isn't. Getting it requires a dip in a PrC like Sacred Exorcist.

If you disallow PrCs then he can't - but of course, the Wizard doesn't get 'trix either.

Superglucose
2010-03-11, 01:56 PM
Eh, this may be (somewhat) less true at the lower levels, but if you're talking about a 20 vs. 20 match between an optimized Wizard and an optimized Archivist... I don't think there's any way to predict the outcome. The value of the Wizard and Archivist class features are entirely eclipsed by that of spell access at that level. And both of them can access just about Any Spell Ever. So I don't think this is as much a cage match as it is the philosophical question of what happens when two omniscient and omnipotent beings disagree with one another.
But see that's what makes Incantatrix so bloody powerful: it's class features that make up for losing access to a whole school of magic. And class features that make up for it so well that the class is frequently banned.

sonofzeal
2010-03-11, 01:59 PM
Archivist - better class features, wider spell access

Wizard - no split casting focus, better PrCs, still has exclusive access to many of the best spells (eg Solid Fog, which is not attainable by the Archivist through any trick I know)



....yeah, I'd say Wizard wins.

faceroll
2010-03-11, 02:04 PM
As you yourself mentioned, he can cheese with Divine Bard, Paladin etc. to get some spells way earlier than he should, freeing up his higher slots. He also gets Autoquicken on many spells via the paladin feat Battle Blessing (CChamp).

I don't think Battle Blessing works like that. And I was thinking cheesier- using trapsmith (and similar classes) & alternate source spell to get 3rd level spells as 1st level.


Without Turn Undead, he isn't. Getting it requires a dip in a PrC like Sacred Exorcist.

If you disallow PrCs then he can't - but of course, the Wizard doesn't get 'trix either.

There's a druid spell that gives you turn undead. It's on the WotC site. Not sure how practical it is. Getting 7 turn attempts is a lot of turn attempts.

Optimystik
2010-03-11, 02:12 PM
I don't think Battle Blessing works like that.

Sure it does - any paladin spells get autoquickened, and the only prereq is "ability to cast paladin spells" which Archivists can do.


There's a druid spell that gives you turn undead. It's on the WotC site. Not sure how practical it is. Getting 7 turn attempts is a lot of turn attempts.

Arguably, once you have it then Nightsticks can make up the difference, but again we're getting into WBL.

tyckspoon
2010-03-11, 02:15 PM
Sure it does - any paladin spells get autoquickened, and the only prereq is "ability to cast paladin spells" which Archivists can do.


I am of the opinion that a 'paladin spell' is one that is derived from Paladin levels and cast from the Paladin list, which means Archivists can't use it (because they add it into their personal Archivist list, not cast it from the Paladin list) and neither can Prestige Paladins (because their spellcasting is derived from the divine class they entered from, they never actually get 'Paladin' spells- they get Cleric spells with some new additions in the same way that Domain spells are simply Cleric spells of an unusual source instead of Wizard spells.)

Mongoose87
2010-03-11, 02:18 PM
Sure it does - any paladin spells get autoquickened, and the only prereq is "ability to cast paladin spells" which Archivists can do.

That is so awesome!

faceroll
2010-03-11, 02:18 PM
Sure it does - any paladin spells get autoquickened, and the only prereq is "ability to cast paladin spells" which Archivists can do.

I'm with tyckspoon on this one.


Arguably, once you have it then Nightsticks can make up the difference, but again we're getting into WBL.

At a sufficiently high level, it's doable. But at levels 1, 5, and 10, it's not. Just buying scrolls and copying them into the prayer is going to cost a ton. The wizard has the advantage of getting up to 10 spells known per spell level for free.

Optimystik
2010-03-11, 02:19 PM
I am of the opinion that a 'paladin spell' is one that is derived from Paladin levels and cast from the Paladin list, which means Archivists can't use it (because they add it into their personal Archivist list, not cast it from the Paladin list) and neither can Prestige Paladins (because their spellcasting is derived from the divine class they entered from, they never actually get 'Paladin' spells- they get Cleric spells with some new additions in the same way that Domain spells are simply Cleric spells of an unusual source instead of Wizard spells.)

The problem with your interpretation is that Archivists have no list - the spells themselves never say "Arch 0" or "Arch 9" in their description. They are Paladin spells - they say "Pal 0" etc., just as Druid spells say "Drd 3" even when an Archivist learns them.

For Domains, the spells do actually say "Water 5" or "Law 3." So those would be treated differently, I agree.

And for further proof, the wording of their casting ability:


Spellcasting: An archivist casts divine spells, drawn primarily from the cleric spell list although he can eventually uncover, learn, and prepare noncleric divine spells.

Thus they are explicitly not cleric spells, nor does it have the standard clause of "an Archivist prepares and cast spells like a cleric does..."

faceroll
2010-03-11, 02:21 PM
The problem with your interpretation is that Archivists have no list - the spells themselves never say "Arch 0" or "Arch 9" in their description. They are Paladin spells - they say "Pal 0" etc., just as Druid spells say "Drd 3" even when an Archivist learns them.

For Domains, the spells do actually say "Water 5" or "Law 3." So those would be treated differently, I agree.

And for further proof, the wording of their casting ability:



Thus they are explicitly not cleric spells, nor does it have the standard clause of "an Archivist prepares and cast spells like a cleric does..."

Awww, that's sick. Brilliant find!

Optimystik
2010-03-11, 02:31 PM
Don't get too excited - the paladin list isn't that great. :smalltongue:

There's something to be said for autoquickening all your dispels though.
(Especially since you can do so at level 3!)

Ernir
2010-03-14, 08:10 PM
But see that's what makes Incantatrix so bloody powerful: it's class features that make up for losing access to a whole school of magic. And class features that make up for it so well that the class is frequently banned.
Hmm, the point I was trying to make was more that the Wizard and Archivist class features don't matter if you yank the power dial up high enough, not that there aren't any class features anywhere that are worth it. Because oh, there are. Dweomerkeeper? Tainted Scholar? And yes, indeed, Incantatrix.

Still, if you bring PrC class features into this, the difference gets even smaller. Both can qualify for almost the same PrCs if they try hard enough (exceptions like Master Specialist exist, of course), so it just becomes a race of hunting down the most broken class features instead of only the most broken spell/feat combos. :smallfrown:

JaronK
2010-03-14, 08:44 PM
Since both have so many weapons at their disposal, and so many of the same weapons, it's going to come down to which player plays best. It's not even rocket tag... it's pick any weapon you want and see who gets the first shot off. Initiative may not even be an issue for two casters who can have foresight, celerity, and the ability to shapechange into a dire tortoise. Either one could use all kinds of dirty tricks like flowing time Genesis or endless wishes or whatever else.

So it's just what the players can think of and what the game rules will allow. The classes are too powerful already.

JaronK

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-03-14, 08:45 PM
It doesn't matter, really, who wins. There won't be anything left to witness the victor...

magic9mushroom
2010-03-15, 05:04 AM
With full cheese ahead, the universe implodes due to two Pun-Puns using abilities which contradict each other.

With slightly less cheese, the Wizard gets Tainted Scholar/Shadowcraft Mage/Metaphysical Spellshaper and wins hard.

With high op but not extreme op, it comes down to Archivist's All-Encompassing Spell List vs. Wizard's Better PrCs.

With medium-high op, the Wizard gets a better spell list and likely wins.

Below that, I'm not sure.

taltamir
2010-03-15, 05:29 AM
It either breaks down to "which person is more creative with contingent defenses?" or a vicious game of rocket tag. Whoever goes first is likely to win. X goes first, Y casts Celerity, X counters with Celerity, Plane Shift to a Genesis created Plane where time is 1,000,000 times faster and begin Gating in all the Solars in the Universe.

The winner between the two? No idea.
The loser? Who ever is between the two!

you forgot a few steps after the "X counters with celerity"...
1. There are other spells whose casting time is "immediate" that are not celerity.
2. Both also have a contingency spell (celerity), (if someone casts celerity while in combat with me and I have already cast celerity myself this round)
3. Both have MULTIPLE (max they can hold) crafted contingency (celerity), (same condition as above, add "and I have already expanded my contingency" to the first one, "and I have already expanded a crafted contingency" to the second, "and I have already expanded TWO crafted contingencies" to the third one and so on and so forth).

TheMadLinguist
2010-03-15, 06:15 AM
Easy answer.

Mutually impressed after three rounds of contingencies, counter-contingencies, the summoning of creatures from the highest heavens and the deepest hells, ancient secrets reborn and then trivially destroyed, they decide to skip the fighting and go out on a date instead.

Three months later they're happily married. In the chapel which was once the seat of the pantheon before they killed it and took its stuff.

Defiant
2010-03-15, 06:23 AM
How does the archivist work, exactly? I've read it, but I don't understand how you'd get an arcane spell on "scrolls containing divine spells".

Amphetryon
2010-03-15, 06:37 AM
How does the archivist work, exactly? I've read it, but I don't understand how you'd get an arcane spell on "scrolls containing divine spells".

The vast majority of divine spells have an arcane analog somewhere.

Cure spells? Bard gets those as Arcane.

Cheap Haste? Trapsmith gets Haste as a 1st level spell.

Search through the various PrCs to find the spells you want as Arcane, then go find the scrolls. Obviously, for some campaigns, this is entirely theoretical, while others will have no trouble pulling it off.

Defiant
2010-03-15, 06:42 AM
The vast majority of divine spells have an arcane analog somewhere.

Cure spells? Bard gets those as Arcane.

Cheap Haste? Trapsmith gets Haste as a 1st level spell.

Search through the various PrCs to find the spells you want as Arcane, then go find the scrolls. Obviously, for some campaigns, this is entirely theoretical, while others will have no trouble pulling it off.

Wait, I still don't understand. Archivist can only write from "scrolls containing divine spells". A scroll of haste does not contain a divine spell, it contains an arcane spell. A scroll of cure is normal and easy for the Archivist to get.

How do you get whatever wizard/sorc spells you want? Let's say I want Disguise Self. How do I go about putting that into my prayerbook?

Jack_Simth
2010-03-15, 07:02 AM
Wait, I still don't understand. Archivist can only write from "scrolls containing divine spells". A scroll of haste does not contain a divine spell, it contains an arcane spell. A scroll of cure is normal and easy for the Archivist to get.

How do you get whatever wizard/sorc spells you want? Let's say I want Disguise Self. How do I go about putting that into my prayerbook?
There's a fun trick about crafting:


If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item.
And:

The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)(Emphasis added)

So if an Archivist collaborates with a Sorcerer to make a scroll, with the Archivist providing Scribe Scroll and the Sorcerer providing Disguise Self, and the Archivist paying the XP, then what you end up with is a Divine scroll of Disguise Self.

The reverse is merely a curiosity - you can make an Arcane scroll of Greater Restoration, but it's not on the Sor/Wiz list, so a Wizard STILL can't scribe it into his spellbook. The Archivist has a rather pesky loophole, in that the Archivist can scribe and prepare any divine spell off of a scroll.

So while the Wizard can get any Sor/Wiz spell, with a bit of work, the Archivist can get any Cleric spell, any Druid spell, any Domain spell, Any Bard spell, any Sor/Wiz spell, and so on - basically, any spell for which the archivist can meet two criteria:
1) Find someone who has it
2) Collaborate on a scroll with them

magic9mushroom
2010-03-15, 07:07 AM
How does the archivist work, exactly? I've read it, but I don't understand how you'd get an arcane spell on "scrolls containing divine spells".

There are tricks that allow you to convert spells. Because an Archivist can grab any spell that's on a divine scroll, she can abuse these tricks.

Optimystik
2010-03-15, 07:28 AM
How does the archivist work, exactly? I've read it, but I don't understand how you'd get an arcane spell on "scrolls containing divine spells".

In addition to the tricks m9m mentioned, There are divine classes that can cast arcane spells as divine spells. For instance, Divine Bard means that every bard spell is available to an Archivist. Adepts also get a few arcanes on their list, and everything they cast counts as a divine spell.

Petrocorus
2010-03-15, 07:33 AM
So if an Archivist collaborates with a Sorcerer to make a scroll, with the Archivist providing Scribe Scroll and the Sorcerer providing Disguise Self, and the Archivist paying the XP, then what you end up with is a Divine scroll of Disguise Self.



So that means that a Mystic Theurge could scribe every arcane spell he knows as a divine scroll? And so convert every arcane spell he knows into divine spell?

And scribe every divine spell of his lvl as arcane scroll and learn them almost for free as arcane spell if they are also on the Wiz/Sor spell list?

magic9mushroom
2010-03-15, 07:35 AM
So that means that a Mystic Theurge could scribe every arcane spell he knows as a divine scroll? And so convert every arcane spell he knows into divine spell?

And scribe every divine spell of his lvl as arcane scroll and learn them almost for free as arcane spell if they are also on the Wiz/Sor spell list?

Kind of. It's generally no big deal... except for the Archivist, and, in reverse, for the Spell to Power Erudite.

Defiant
2010-03-15, 07:45 AM
Wow, thanks guys!


There's a fun trick about crafting:


And:
(Emphasis added)

So if an Archivist collaborates with a Sorcerer to make a scroll, with the Archivist providing Scribe Scroll and the Sorcerer providing Disguise Self, and the Archivist paying the XP, then what you end up with is a Divine scroll of Disguise Self.

The reverse is merely a curiosity - you can make an Arcane scroll of Greater Restoration, but it's not on the Sor/Wiz list, so a Wizard STILL can't scribe it into his spellbook. The Archivist has a rather pesky loophole, in that the Archivist can scribe and prepare any divine spell off of a scroll.

So while the Wizard can get any Sor/Wiz spell, with a bit of work, the Archivist can get any Cleric spell, any Druid spell, any Domain spell, Any Bard spell, any Sor/Wiz spell, and so on - basically, any spell for which the archivist can meet two criteria:
1) Find someone who has it
2) Collaborate on a scroll with them

Doesn't that technically have cheese to it? :smalleek:

magic9mushroom
2010-03-15, 07:57 AM
Wow, thanks guys!



Doesn't that technically have cheese to it? :smalleek:

Tainted Scholar has been mentioned in this thread. I seem to recall a Biblical quote referring to ignoring logs while picking at specks.

Petrocorus
2010-03-15, 08:09 AM
Tainted Scholar has been mentioned in this thread. I seem to recall a Biblical quote referring to ignoring logs while picking at specks.

Even I can see why Tainted Scholar is totally cheese, and i'm sure i don't see all the optimizations possible.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-15, 08:17 AM
Even I can see why Tainted Scholar is totally cheese, and i'm sure i don't see all the optimizations possible.

There isn't much to it, though a couple of the secrets have interesting uses. Tainted Spellcasting is ludicrously easy to abuse - just jack up your Con and Wis and rack up the taint.

Petrocorus
2010-03-15, 09:05 AM
There isn't much to it, though a couple of the secrets have interesting uses. Tainted Spellcasting is ludicrously easy to abuse - just jack up your Con and Wis and rack up the taint.

I'm wondering, how high practically can you pop up the taint? Is there even a limit? Providing you have good Wis and Con.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-15, 09:07 AM
I'm wondering, how high practically can you pop up the taint? Is there even a limit? Providing you have good Wis and Con.

Around 110-120 is the usual limit without racials.

By one reading of the extremely dodgy RAW there is no limit for undead (necropolitan says hi).

Nohwl
2010-03-15, 09:33 AM
Archivist - better class features, wider spell access

Wizard - no split casting focus, better PrCs, still has exclusive access to many of the best spells (eg Solid Fog, which is not attainable by the Archivist through any trick I know)



....yeah, I'd say Wizard wins.

my understanding is that hexer from masters of the wild allows you to.

Petrocorus
2010-03-15, 10:00 AM
Around 110-120 is the usual limit without racials.

.

So, if i count well, something like 15 spell slot /day of 9th lvl, with DC of 70!
The Dark Side of the Force is stronger apparently!

To go back a little on topic. What PrC are good for Archivist?

Nohwl
2010-03-15, 10:04 AM
sacred exorcist is good for a dip, knight of the the raven is nice for gishes, dweomerkeeper, but you have to build a little for it.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-15, 11:13 AM
I suggest my divine golden standard:

Archivist 8/Contemplative 1/Divine Oracle 1/Walker in the Wastes 10

Pick up the Thirst domain thru Contemplative
Pick up the Oracle Domain thru DA
Become Undead thru WitW

Petrocorus
2010-03-15, 11:33 AM
Has someone try to build Archivist 3 / Wiz 1 / Mystic Theurge X ?

With Precocious apprentice for entry.
Is there any early entry trick for divine spellcaster?

Superglucose
2010-03-15, 11:38 AM
So while the Wizard can get any Sor/Wiz spell, with a bit of work, the Archivist can get any Cleric spell, any Druid spell, any Domain spell, Any Bard spell, any Sor/Wiz spell, and so on - basically, any spell for which the archivist can meet two criteria:
1) Find someone who has it
2) Collaborate on a scroll with them
It doesn't necessarily work this way because of the description of Scribe Scroll. I know many GMs who say that supercedes the craft-magic-items rules.

Kosjsjach
2010-03-15, 11:46 AM
Has someone try to build Archivist 3 / Wiz 1 / Mystic Theurge X ?

With Precocious apprentice for entry.
Is there any early entry trick for divine spellcaster?
There's always the Illumian trick (Races of Destiny). I have an Illumian Archivist 1/ Wizard 2/ Mystic Theurge X all statted out and nowhere to go.

The trick is to take the Improved Sigil (Krau) feat at 3rd level, which lets you auto-heighten two 1st-level spells of your choice, effectively giving you 2nd-level spellcasting.

(Also of note, both classes get Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat, so you can take the Martial Wizard variant from Unearthed Arcana and trade your Wizard feat for a Fighter bonus feat. Improved Initiative is classic.)

EDIT: forgot to mention: a Krau-sigil Illumian is extra-good for Mystic Theurge in that you get a +2 to your caster levels (not exceeding your HD), negating the need for Practiced Spellcaster or anything. Mystic Theurge may be a sub-par class, but Illumian is the way to go.

Nohwl
2010-03-15, 11:47 AM
Has someone try to build Archivist 3 / Wiz 1 / Mystic Theurge X ?

With Precocious apprentice for entry.
Is there any early entry trick for divine spellcaster?

i played an archivist 3/wizard3/mystic theurge 5 once. character didn't last too long because the game ended a few sessions later.

Volkov
2010-03-15, 11:53 AM
Eh, this may be (somewhat) less true at the lower levels, but if you're talking about a 20 vs. 20 match between an optimized Wizard and an optimized Archivist... I don't think there's any way to predict the outcome. The value of the Wizard and Archivist class features are entirely eclipsed by that of spell access at that level. And both of them can access just about Any Spell Ever. So I don't think this is as much a cage match as it is the philosophical question of what happens when two omniscient and omnipotent beings disagree with one another.


EDIT: On second thought... I do have a prediction as for how this would go. Neither could win, because both have made themselves immune to everything. :smalltongue:

I'll see your casters and raise you one pun-pun.

The Deej
2010-03-15, 12:13 PM
There's one minor detail I haven't seen considered here yet. Archivists get more spell slots than Wizards.

I can't seem to recall the specifics off hand, but I know that there's a way for divine casters (or maybe casters with turning?) to counterspell as an immediate action. If an archivist can literally cast everything the wizard can (and then some), he might be able to drain the wizard of all of his slots.

And as for dealing with the familiar, he could probably use one of his extra slots for a Planar Ally (something like a Planetar might be nice).

Jack_Simth
2010-03-15, 07:09 PM
So that means that a Mystic Theurge could scribe every arcane spell he knows as a divine scroll? And so convert every arcane spell he knows into divine spell?

And scribe every divine spell of his lvl as arcane scroll and learn them almost for free as arcane spell if they are also on the Wiz/Sor spell list?
Pretty much. Mind you, you have to pay the crafting cost, and the "scribe it into your spellbook" cost, so it's not really all that cheap. And there's little-to-no mechanical benefit for someone who's going to be casting arcane spells anyway to making divine scrolls of spells he already has as Wizard spells. Especially as he still can't prepare them in his divine spell slots.



Doesn't that technically have cheese to it? :smalleek:
Where are the lines drawn between "normal characters", "optimized characters", "powergamed characters", and "cheesy characters?"

It doesn't necessarily work this way because of the description of Scribe Scroll. I know many GMs who say that supercedes the craft-magic-items rules.
Alternately, that would forbid collaboration on all magic items - as all of the Core item crafting feats require "you" to meet the prerequisites / know the spells.

But then, what works at one table does not work at another, especially when the rules are not 100% consistent to begin with (but then you have that pesky theorm: Complete, Consistent, non-trivial; choose two).

Nohwl
2010-03-15, 07:12 PM
so, using that method, an archivist can get all spells, not most spells, but every spell ever printed, as a divine spell?

Jack_Simth
2010-03-15, 08:46 PM
so, using that method, an archivist can get all spells, not most spells, but every spell ever printed, as a divine spell?
Presuming you can find someone willing to collaborate, technically. A Warlock or an Artificer is quite handy in that regard as well.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-15, 08:57 PM
So, if i count well, something like 15 spell slot /day of 9th lvl, with DC of 70!
The Dark Side of the Force is stronger apparently!

Hey, we already knew THAT. Have you seen Ur-Priest?


To go back a little on topic. What PrC are good for Archivist?

Dweomerkeeper, stuff that gives turning, stuff that uses your Knowledge skills.


There's one minor detail I haven't seen considered here yet. Archivists get more spell slots than Wizards.

Only as many as specialist wizards and less than focused specialists. And that's before you have the Archivist's MAD to worry about.

JaronK
2010-03-15, 10:17 PM
To go back a little on topic. What PrC are good for Archivist?

There's a listed divine adaptation of Anima Mage, which then goes great with Tenebrous Apostate. That's 15 levels of Binding and casting, with some VERY nice class features.

Tainted Sorcerer in games where taint is used is awesome, because you can use restoration and similar spells to regulate your taint score as needed. Combined with the above two classes, you can have free spell components and effectively free metamagic all day long. I consider the following build to be one of the single most powerful caster builds in existence that doesn't use infinite loops and such:

Binder 1/Archivist 3/Anima Mage 10/Tenebrous Apostate 5/Tainted Sorcerer 1. Take the TS level as soon as you get that item that gives you a low level diamond mind manuever (it's cheap, and you'll want Moment of Perfect Mind). This ensures you never take any more Tainted Sorcerer levels. Bind Naberius and either bind Buer or persist Lesser Mass Vigor/Vigorous Circle. Take Persistant Spell, and maybe Quicken Spell. Persist every good spell you can think of. Go nuts.

JaronK

Optimystik
2010-03-15, 11:00 PM
Binder 1/Archivist 3/Anima Mage 10/Tenebrous Apostate 5/Tainted Sorcerer 1. Take the TS level as soon as you get that item that gives you a low level diamond mind manuever (it's cheap, and you'll want Moment of Perfect Mind). This ensures you never take any more Tainted Sorcerer levels. Bind Naberius and either bind Buer or persist Lesser Mass Vigor/Vigorous Circle. Take Persistant Spell, and maybe Quicken Spell. Persist every good spell you can think of. Go nuts.

I prefer "Anima Priest" for the divine adaptation. :smallbiggrin:

As for me, Contemplative + Paragnostic Apostle would be my choice.

KellKheraptis
2010-03-15, 11:37 PM
Staying just in Wizard with a base class, we've got repeating Shadow Miracles all day long. As in "here, fight Thor, Loki, Odin, and Baulder" from emulating Ice Assassins. We also have their entire list, plus every psionic power and every maneuver. Persistent Invoke Magic means so long as I can spam one of those out of a 4th level spell slot, it's available in an AMF (gee...we're casting out of cantrips...). Even if the only straying we do from Wizard spellcasting is picking up the domain to snag Miracle on an SCM, Wizard owns the Archivist hard.

Now, going outside of just Wizard as a base class, we get my latest concoction, which ends up with a CL of 144 without a bloodline, and 177 with, plus Tainted Sorcerer and SCM goodness. Archivists just can't compete with that kind of firepower. The build is called the Twice Betrayer Slayer for a reason ;)

JaronK
2010-03-15, 11:53 PM
Staying just in Wizard with a base class, we've got repeating Shadow Miracles all day long. As in "here, fight Thor, Loki, Odin, and Baulder" from emulating Ice Assassins. We also have their entire list, plus every psionic power and every maneuver. Persistent Invoke Magic means so long as I can spam one of those out of a 4th level spell slot, it's available in an AMF (gee...we're casting out of cantrips...). Even if the only straying we do from Wizard spellcasting is picking up the domain to snag Miracle on an SCM, Wizard owns the Archivist hard.

Archivists can do all of that. Seriously, which of those things sounds like something an Archivist can't do? And why do you think a pure Wizard can do shadow Miracles? Shadow Conjuration only casts Wizard/Sorcerer spells, which Miracle isn't.


Now, going outside of just Wizard as a base class, we get my latest concoction, which ends up with a CL of 144 without a bloodline, and 177 with, plus Tainted Sorcerer and SCM goodness. Archivists just can't compete with that kind of firepower. The build is called the Twice Betrayer Slayer for a reason ;)

Archivists can do all of that too, actually. And they can lower their taint score with spells, which is something a Wizard will have a harder time doing (due to lacking those spells on his list). That makes Archivists better at the Tainted Sorcerer thing.

JaronK

KellKheraptis
2010-03-16, 12:40 AM
Archivists can do all of that. Seriously, which of those things sounds like something an Archivist can't do? And why do you think a pure Wizard can do shadow Miracles? Shadow Conjuration only casts Wizard/Sorcerer spells, which Miracle isn't.

Not this little debate again...Arcane Disciple, now it is on my list, game broken over my knee. And the archivist has to pay for it if he uses a greater effect, the SCM wizard doesn't.


Archivists can do all of that too, actually. And they can lower their taint score with spells, which is something a Wizard will have a harder time doing (due to lacking those spells on his list). That makes Archivists better at the Tainted Sorcerer thing.

JaronK

Archivists have a difficult time counting as arcane for Master Spellthief trickery. And with the Evil subtype, I care not about lowering taint.

JaronK
2010-03-16, 01:14 AM
Not this little debate again...Arcane Disciple, now it is on my list, game broken over my knee. And the archivist has to pay for it if he uses a greater effect, the SCM wizard doesn't.

It's on YOUR list. But is it on THE Wizard/Sorcerer list? Meanwhile, both have plenty of game breaking tricks. Even assuming Shadow Miracles work, they both can get endless wishes long before that and they can both pull off Shadow Genesis. They've both got so many broken tricks that it really doesn't matter.


Archivists have a difficult time counting as arcane for Master Spellthief trickery. And with the Evil subtype, I care not about lowering taint.

Your taint score is a penalty to your wisdom, which will knock you unconscious eventually. That's using the taint rules from UA, which is the ones you're using if you're using Tainted Sorcerer. Would such a build be powerful? Of course. But claiming Archivists can't compete with that firepower is rediculous.

JaronK

KellKheraptis
2010-03-16, 01:23 AM
It's on YOUR list. But is it on THE Wizard/Sorcerer list? Meanwhile, both have plenty of game breaking tricks. Even assuming Shadow Miracles work, they both can get endless wishes long before that and they can both pull off Shadow Genesis. They've both got so many broken tricks that it really doesn't matter.

So we agree, SCM blows everything open.


Your taint score is a penalty to your wisdom, which will knock you unconscious eventually. That's using the taint rules from UA, which is the ones you're using if you're using Tainted Sorcerer. Would such a build be powerful? Of course. But claiming Archivists can't compete with that firepower is rediculous.

JaronK

Evil subtype and undead are immune to the effects of taint. Note the mention of it above. And I say they can't compete with that kind of firepower because all those slots can now be Shadow Miracles/AftS/Crushing Fist of Spite/Maw of Chaos. And that's not even mentioning the Initiative abuse a wizard can pull off. You've got a +8 margin right out of the gate to make up after 3rd level if they're an elf. That's 40% advantage, assuming you took as many initiative boosters as the wizard and use the same buffs. Insightful Divination widens the gap even more if they have it (though conceivably an archivist could as well, but you're stuck with Hathran if you want to get the same bonus from a Wizard with Circle Magic, which even in core they can do).

That said, if properly buffed, they will stalemate. And by properly buffed I mean the Archivist snuck in to SCM and they both turned into Dusk Giants to put up Mythals and ascend to DvR 0 (or higher) with epic spellcasting.

JaronK
2010-03-16, 01:38 AM
So we agree, SCM blows everything open.

Both of them can do it. Shadow Miracles are not only debatable, they're hardly the strongest available option. So it's not like it influences things one way or the other.


Evil subtype and undead are immune to the effects of taint. Note the mention of it above. And I say they can't compete with that kind of firepower because all those slots can now be Shadow Miracles/AftS/Crushing Fist of Spite/Maw of Chaos.

So? They could be Genesis too. Who cares?


And that's not even mentioning the Initiative abuse a wizard can pull off.

Both can Shapechange into Dire Tortoises. Only the Archivist can use Persistant Change Fate (I think that's the name) and reroll all initiative checks... as well as everything else. Both can use Celerity.

Point being, we're comparing single attack options as though there aren't thousands more. It's like saying "look, this guy has this one nuclear weapon that the other side doesn't have" while ignoring the fact that both sides have thousands.

JaronK

KellKheraptis
2010-03-16, 01:44 AM
As mentioned in my final paragraph. Also, Miracle = every spell ever available. I most definitely can cast a persistent anything as a properly built SCM :P My only quibble with that statement. And it's Choose Destiny, if you mean the auto-reroll 9th level domain only spell from RoDestiny.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-16, 02:22 AM
There's a listed divine adaptation of Anima Mage, which then goes great with Tenebrous Apostate. That's 15 levels of Binding and casting, with some VERY nice class features.

Tainted Sorcerer in games where taint is used is awesome, because you can use restoration and similar spells to regulate your taint score as needed. Combined with the above two classes, you can have free spell components and effectively free metamagic all day long. I consider the following build to be one of the single most powerful caster builds in existence that doesn't use infinite loops and such:

Binder 1/Archivist 3/Anima Mage 10/Tenebrous Apostate 5/Tainted Sorcerer 1. Take the TS level as soon as you get that item that gives you a low level diamond mind manuever (it's cheap, and you'll want Moment of Perfect Mind). This ensures you never take any more Tainted Sorcerer levels. Bind Naberius and either bind Buer or persist Lesser Mass Vigor/Vigorous Circle. Take Persistant Spell, and maybe Quicken Spell. Persist every good spell you can think of. Go nuts.

JaronK

Heroes of Horror says it supersedes the UA taint rules IIRC, so Tainted Sorcerer is broken (as in, doesn't work). And Tainted Scholar is arcane-only.

There's also the matter that Tainted Sorcerer is automatically dodgy due to being from UA.

JaronK
2010-03-16, 02:58 AM
As mentioned in my final paragraph. Also, Miracle = every spell ever available.

If a DM's allowing that, then you've also got Flowing Time Genesis, so it doesn't matter at that point anyhow.


I most definitely can cast a persistent anything as a properly built SCM :P My only quibble with that statement. And it's Choose Destiny, if you mean the auto-reroll 9th level domain only spell from RoDestiny.

Right, that one. Archivists can have it of course.

JaronK