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View Full Version : How many Tarrasques vs party ?



Grifthin
2010-03-11, 01:40 AM
So I'm planning on just doing a Single Session (2 at most) game where there will be 6 level 20 Gestalt Characters non optimized with any equip they want vs a number of tarrasques.

How many tarrasques do you think I will need to give them a bit of a fun fight ?

Any specific effects/spells I should Outlaw ?

Any specific Equipment I should outlaw ?

Draz74
2010-03-11, 01:49 AM
So I'm planning on just doing a Single Session (2 at most) game where there will be 6 level 20 Gestalt Characters non optimized with any equip they want vs a number of tarrasques.

How many tarrasques do you think I will need to give them a bit of a fun fight ?
Three or four. Depending whether it's the default Tarrasque, or whether you're trading out his crappy feats (Toughness!) for cool stuff (like Martial Study, Shape Soulmeld).


Any specific effects/spells I should Outlaw ?
Anything overpowered, and anything that allows flight.


Any specific Equipment I should outlaw ?

Anything overpowered, and anything that allows flight.

And probably Trollbane, as much as I love it.

Grifthin
2010-03-11, 01:56 AM
I'll just give these creatures wings - to keep it fair :)

Starscream
2010-03-11, 02:05 AM
Any specific effects/spells I should Outlaw?

Shivering touch, also knows as the "One-shot any dragon without a saving throw" spell.

A Tarrasque does have higher Dex than a dragon, but it's still not beyond to scope of the spell to reduce it to zero (though it would require good rolls). Two castings would almost guarantee it.

And the spell does allow SR, which the Tarrasque has. But we're still talking an effect that means the players are never more than one or two lucky rolls away from winning. And its Touch AC is atrocious, so you know they'll have plenty of opportunities to play those odds.

Mando Knight
2010-03-11, 02:07 AM
Shivering touch, also knows as the "One-shot any dragon without a saving throw" spell.

A Tarrasque does have higher Dex than a dragon, but it's still not beyond to scope of the spell to reduce it to zero (though it would require good rolls). Two castings would almost guarantee it.

And the spell does allow SR, which the Tarrasque has. But we're still talking an effect that means the players are never more than one or two lucky rolls away from winning. And its Touch AC is atrocious, so you know they'll have plenty of opportunities to play those odds.

Isn't Shivering Touch ability damage? If it is, then Big T just laughs and says "ha, ha... no."

Ravens_cry
2010-03-11, 02:08 AM
I would ask for Acid Immunity, an admantium dagger, that the cleric cast Sheild Other on me, and some admantium (or better) immovable rods.. Dive in, plant rod, cut my way out, get healed, rinse, lather, repeat. No flying or jumping or lunging or trampling until the rod breaks for Mr. T.
Just 10 feet of movement at a full round action.

Abd al-Azrad
2010-03-11, 02:14 AM
Without asking for a detailed rundown of the entire party you're playing with, I'd suggest you run a battle ahead of time using their builds. As the DM, you either have their builds available, or have some idea of what they can do. Try playing a few rounds against imaginary PCs. Imagine that you're the PCs and trying to win. It may take a little bit of time and effort, but... well, it works wonders.

By level 20, there's really not a lot that any given number of Tarrasques can do to increase the challenge of the encounter, short of the collateral damage they can deal while the party is resting. A level 20 party can easily divide and conquer. I imagine you've got some clever and insidious plot device that will force the PCs to confront this swarm of Tarrasques with limited resources, because that's really the only issue they face. Your 6 20th-level PCs will beat any Tarrasque until they run out of steam.

It won't be easy, per se- each Tarrasque will whittle down their resources significantly. I mean, they've got like 800+ HP each. Imagine how many spells and attacks it will take the party to deal 900 damage, add in, say, three to four high-level spells to effectively neutralize that Tarrasque, and count from there. That's how long the party will take to kill a Tarrasque.


I would ask for Acid Immunity, an admantium dagger, that the cleric cast Sheild Other on me, and some admantium (or better) immovable rods.. Dive in, plant rod, cut my way out, get healed, rinse, lather, repeat. No flying or jumping or lunging or trampling until the rod breaks for Mr. T.
Just 10 feet of movement at a full round action.

I absolutely love this plan, but those Immovable Rods take a DC 30 Strength Check to move, which is not really impossible for the Tarrasque's +17 Str mod. Still, as you say, no flying or jumping or nothing. Good idea.

Runestar
2010-03-11, 02:20 AM
I am tempted to template them for more variety. But am afraid they may get too complex to run. At least with 4 run-of-the-mill tarrasques, they all use the same stat-block.

If there are that many, I might consider the dungeonbred template to bump them down to gargantuan, so they don't clutter up the battlefield too much.

As mentioned, it also depends on how much you wish to optimize their feat choices. Swap out toughness for improved multiattack, steadfast determination, improved rapidstrike and you have a vastly stronger tarrasque (which admitably, still can't fly). :smalltongue:

Grifthin
2010-03-11, 02:23 AM
Sweet - So how about 6 Flying Tarrasques with maby one or two feats swapped out for more fun.

Starscream
2010-03-11, 02:27 AM
Isn't Shivering Touch ability damage? If it is, then Big T just laughs and says "ha, ha... no."

Ah, you're right. I forgot that little tidbit about him.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-11, 02:37 AM
A single rebuked allip can take out the entire Infinite Elemental Plane of Tarrasque, and there's nothing the IEPT can do about it.

Give Mr. T. a few items that provide him with immunities, a couple of levels in ToB classes, and a few choice soulmelds (such as anything that grants flight and allows him to hit incorporeals), and you'd be amazed at how much stronger he becomes.

In lieu of flight, try giving him something to throw and that feat that grants Str to attacks with thrown weapons. Also: Leap Attack. :amused:

Ravens_cry
2010-03-11, 02:39 AM
I absolutely love this plan, but those Immovable Rods take a DC 30 Strength Check to move, which is not really impossible for the Tarrasque's +17 Str mod. Still, as you say, no flying or jumping or nothing. Good idea.
True, but he spends his ENTIRE round doing it. Meaning he basically misses his turn. And 10 feet per turn is something even the clunkiest fighter can outrun.
Of course, crushing and acid damage will soon do the rods in, hence the 'lather, repeat', addendum.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-11, 02:41 AM
True, but he spends his ENTIRE round doing it. Meaning he basically misses his turn. And 10 feet per turn is something even the clunkiest fighter can outrun.
Of course, crushing and acid damage will soon do the rods in, hence the 'lather, repeat', addendum.Make it out of riverine.

Ravens_cry
2010-03-11, 02:43 AM
Make it out of riverine.
What's that, and how does it help?:smallconfused:

Coidzor
2010-03-11, 02:45 AM
I believe it's walls of force containing water out of Stormwrack.

Walls of force and water being immune to destruction via acid.

Ravens_cry
2010-03-11, 02:50 AM
I believe it's walls of force containing water out of Stormwrack.

Walls of force and water being immune to destruction via acid.
OK, that's the acid, hows about the crushingness? Yeah, it doesn't make a tonne of sense that a creature the size of Mr. T. should be able to crush an object the size of a candy bar with it's stomach muscles, but hey, RAW is RAW.

Olo Demonsbane
2010-03-11, 02:58 AM
OK, that's the acid, hows about the crushingness? Yeah, it doesn't make a tonne of sense that a creature the size of Mr. T. should be able to crush an object the size of a candy bar with it's stomach muscles, but hey, RAW is RAW.

Walls of force are also immune to crushiness...

Ravens_cry
2010-03-11, 03:02 AM
Walls of force are also immune to crushiness...
Oh. . .
Nice.:smallamused:
Ravens Cry likes so much Ravens Cry is speaking in the third person.:smallbiggrin:
It raises the question though. I've been assuming you can make a magic item out of alternate materials. Is this so, RAW?

Coidzor
2010-03-11, 04:29 AM
Don't believe it's ever really been addressed in one of the books.

The immovable rod is, per the item's description in the SRD, an iron bar with a button on the end of it.

Special materials such as mithral have a +500 gp per pound to the price for "other items."

So unless there's something more in the RAW, the particular instance of a riverine immovable rod is unlikely. :/

Could be that there's a variant mentioned in stormwrack though...

JeminiZero
2010-03-11, 04:46 AM
True, but he spends his ENTIRE round doing it. Meaning he basically misses his turn. And 10 feet per turn is something even the clunkiest fighter can outrun.

Actualy, it might not work that way. Seeing as to how his stomach crushes everything, it might be reasonable to conclude that the pressure it applies to the Immovable Rod depresses the button (and keeps it depressed) thereby turning the rod off.

Grifthin
2010-03-11, 04:57 AM
Is there any way to fling the Tarrasque into space with a telekinetic spell ? Or would have to turn him into a tortoise then fling that into space ?

Alternately could you contain him a cage made of force ? - can one move the cage of force in any way ?

Heliomance
2010-03-11, 05:03 AM
See, IMHO, the best way to deal with the Tarrasque is simple.

Dominate Monster.

Killer Angel
2010-03-11, 05:43 AM
So I'm planning on just doing a Single Session (2 at most) game where there will be 6 level 20 Gestalt Characters non optimized with any equip they want vs a number of tarrasques.

How many tarrasques do you think I will need to give them a bit of a fun fight ?

Any specific effects/spells I should Outlaw ?

Any specific Equipment I should outlaw ?

The problem in this is: if something slips through your attention and the players find a way to beat (relatively easily) a Big T (even if modified, flying, etc), the encounter is screwed, no matter the number of T.
Why not make a deadly squad? (one Big T., one advanced Pit fiend, a frost giant sorcerer, etc?). They'll need more tactic.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-11, 05:48 AM
Ban the 1d2 crusader.

taltamir
2010-03-11, 05:48 AM
The problem in this is: if something slips through your attention and the players find a way to beat (relatively easily) a Big T (even if modified, flying, etc), the encounter is screwed, no matter the number of T.
Why not make a deadly squad? (one Big T., one advanced Pit fiend, a frost giant sorcerer, etc?). They'll need more tactic.

variety is a good idea.
for the ultimate effectively, a balanced party of evil NPCs.

Volkov
2010-03-11, 06:34 AM
I am tempted to template them for more variety. But am afraid they may get too complex to run. At least with 4 run-of-the-mill tarrasques, they all use the same stat-block.

If there are that many, I might consider the dungeonbred template to bump them down to gargantuan, so they don't clutter up the battlefield too much.

As mentioned, it also depends on how much you wish to optimize their feat choices. Swap out toughness for improved multiattack, steadfast determination, improved rapidstrike and you have a vastly stronger tarrasque (which admitably, still can't fly). :smalltongue:

One Half-White Dragon tarrasque per player. That should make things interesting.

Runestar
2010-03-11, 07:02 AM
Why not make a deadly squad? (one Big T., one advanced Pit fiend, a frost giant sorcerer, etc?). They'll need more tactic.

I would actually caution against this.

Not because it is game-breaking, but because I feel juggling so many different npcs will likely place undue strain on the DM as he struggles to manage all their various special abilities.

Each is complex enough as is. Pit fiend has a ton of resistances/immunities, plus regeneration, several SLAs and the ability to summon 2 horned devils (which add even more npcs to the mix). The giant sorc too has a lot of spells to select from. The tarrasque is probably the easiest to manage as it is a relatively straight-forward bruiser, but even then, it has regeneration, a myriad of immunities and that funny carapace to contend with.

I am betting that in the heat of battle, the DM will likely overlook certain features, leading them to be weaker than they actually are (because the DM is too overtaxed to play them to their full capabilities). He will probably forget the fiend has dr, or use a suboptimal spell against the party because he forgets the sorc has something better or something.

I think the DM can still reasonable handle 2-3 npcs so long as their stat blocks do not differ too greatly.

If however, you want a little more variety in your game, I would recommend the master of the wild hunt encounter in MM5. It comprises of 1 cr22 hunter and his 4 cr18 hunting pack. Best of all, their stats are actually quite straightforward.

Or maybe even the Garngrath from MM5.

2xMachina
2010-03-11, 07:09 AM
6 gestalt lvl 20?

Give class lvls to the Big T! Now it'll be more balanced. Still might need a few though.

Trixie
2010-03-11, 07:27 AM
So I'm planning on just doing a Single Session (2 at most) game where there will be 6 level 20 Gestalt Characters non optimized with any equip they want vs a number of tarrasques.

How many tarrasques do you think I will need to give them a bit of a fun fight ?

Any specific effects/spells I should Outlaw ?

Any specific Equipment I should outlaw ?

To make things interesting, one more than they have wishes/miracles :smalltongue:

Ban flight, or give big Ts wings. Use its immunities and carapace to the full capacity.


I would ask for Acid Immunity, an admantium dagger, that the cleric cast Sheild Other on me, and some admantium (or better) immovable rods.. Dive in, plant rod, cut my way out, get healed, rinse, lather, repeat. No flying or jumping or lunging or trampling until the rod breaks for Mr. T.

Actually, it is such a tiny object, that the sensible thing (for DM) would be to say: You plant it? Fine, Big T doesn't notice it at all and uses its Str 45 to push forward... tearing his digestive tract in the weakened spot in the process, where you just cut it. Big T takes 25 damage, nice try, but no cigar. Oh, when you cut out of it, it stomped on you a few times as it not noticed you, for good measure :smalltongue:

Grumman
2010-03-11, 07:43 AM
So unless there's something more in the RAW, the particular instance of a riverine immovable rod is unlikely. :/

Could be that there's a variant mentioned in stormwrack though...

Make scroll case out of riverine.
Buy immovable rod.
Put immovable rod in scroll case.
Push button.
Close scroll case.

Coplantor
2010-03-11, 07:51 AM
Why more Tarasques when one midly modified (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20070608a) should do?

Remember to add half dragon or something with breath weapon.

Demons_eye
2010-03-11, 08:02 AM
Make scroll case out of riverine.
Buy immovable rod.
Put immovable rod in scroll case.
Push button.
Close scroll case.
???
Profit


Fixed it for you

Knaight
2010-03-11, 08:31 AM
Why more Tarasques when one midly modified (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87000) should do?

Remember to add half dragon or something with breath weapon.

Fixed. If you don't see the difference, click the link.

Coplantor
2010-03-11, 08:35 AM
OK, but still keep him with 30 heads and breath weapon.

Eldariel
2010-03-11, 08:44 AM
30-headed half-fiend tarrasque might already be somewhat dangerous. The 30-headed one tho? It doesn't fly, nor have a ranged attack.. The CL 106 Blasphemies would be a nice start tho.

Deliverance
2010-03-11, 08:56 AM
How many tarrasques do you think I will need to give them a bit of a fun fight ?

One.

Just ignore the pesky details of its actual implementation in whatever version of D&D you are playing and play it like it is intended to be. Big, bad, and unstoppable.

When players try to play their silly little Tarrasque-killing-by-mechanism-abuse tricks, have the Tarrasque shrug off their attacks and stomp their faces. Have it burrow through the ground, have it digest the conjured metals filling its stomach, have it move the immovable rod - let it TRULY be the unstoppable object it is intended to be.

Let them, perhaps, divert it, but don't let the old "if you can stat it, they can kill it" come true.

When it gets tired, let it fall asleep again.


Depends on your group of players whether they will find this fun, of course - if this is run as an exercise in "show me how overpowered your characters are", they probably won't appreciate it. If run as part of a regular adventure, they might.

It seems likely from your OP that it is the former rather than the latter in which case you can just as well just hand out a "well done, you are the WINNER!" medal instead of playing because there are so many ways to abuse the rules to kill a Tarrasque who is only protected by its stats, but you know your players better than I.

Saurus33
2010-03-11, 09:06 AM
If it is going to be fiat-unstoppable, why bother even statting it? Just say that it becomes a cutscene(you lose) when the big T comes out.

If you actually intend to do something other than railroading, it would probably be a good idea to grant flight, swap out feats, add class levels etc. This really depends on the actual builds of the characters, since even gestalt lvl-20's will vary immensely in power.

Something that isn't done very often is a Tarrasque with the intelligence to actually counter the ingenious tactics the players have concocted. How about a half-dragon Sorcerer Tarrasque leading several mundane ones?

Radiun
2010-03-11, 09:20 AM
Make a Gestalt T. level 20 Mr. T level 20 commoner with skill focus (basket weaving)
Get his basket weaving so high he can craft magical (size appropriate) baskets in one round and just drop/toss them on people. Then set them on fire with size appropriate matches

Cyclocone
2010-03-11, 09:22 AM
Why do I get a feeling as if this thread was moving into Cranium Tarrasque Swarm territory?

Indon
2010-03-11, 09:37 AM
How many tarrasques do you think I will need to give them a bit of a fun fight ?
One (Give it wings).

Since the NPCs are gestalt, gestalt the Terrasque's Hit Dice, for 48 class levels.

Since your players are unoptimized, go easy on it. I recommend Fighter->Epic Fighter prestiging into Legendary Dreadnought (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClasses/legendaryDreadnought.htm).

Grab a bunch of epic feats that reflect the Terrasque's supposedly legendary resilience. Have it spend feats on the Deflect Arrows tree to grab Reflect Arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#reflectArrows) - watch that Orbizard sweat. Get it Distant Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#distantShot) and have it throw boulders at the party if they try to fly off - why even use those wings? From there, pump big T's stuff to make it more juggernauty.

Volkov
2010-03-11, 09:42 AM
30-headed half-fiend tarrasque might already be somewhat dangerous. The 30-headed one tho? It doesn't fly, nor have a ranged attack.. The CL 106 Blasphemies would be a nice start tho.

Nice start? Isn't that insta death without a saving throw for good characters? Make him a half white dragon, half farspawn, and toss the monster of legend template on him on top of all that for more lulz.

Coplantor
2010-03-11, 09:47 AM
Nice start? Isn't that insta death without a saving throw for good characters? Make him a half white dragon, half farspawn, and toss the monster of legend template on him on top of all that for more lulz.

And why not gestalting him as a druid? An animal companion will look nice for the tarasque.
Or maybe swordsage! Karate Tarasque!

Volkov
2010-03-11, 09:49 AM
And why not gestalting him as a druid? An animal companion will look nice for the tarasque.
Or maybe swordsage! Karate Tarasque!

Yes...and his animal companion will be a t-rex...in an f-14....

Coplantor
2010-03-11, 09:50 AM
Yes...and his animal companion will be a t-rex...in an f-14....

And both of them have the leadership feat

Grumman
2010-03-11, 09:52 AM
If run as part of a regular adventure, they might.
No. Speaking from experience, the only way you could make this idea worse is to let an NPC make the killing blow (by DM fiat, of course).

unre9istered
2010-03-11, 10:03 AM
Since the NPCs are gestalt, gestalt the Terrasque's Hit Dice, for 48 class levels.

But then rather than a CR 20 (plus a bit with templates) its a CR48 or so. I'm not sure a party of 6 level 20's should be able to take out a level 48 anything barring the DM setting up a win solution.

Killer Angel
2010-03-11, 10:08 AM
Yes...and his animal companion will be a t-rex...in an f-14....

Calvin Rulez! :smallbiggrin:
...at this point, i bet on Big T.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-11, 10:10 AM
Wizards actually beat us to the punch. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20051109a)

Really, if there's an optimized tier 1 character in the group (especially a wizard or archivist), it doesn't really matter what you do. If there's not, then it's not as big of a worry.

What classes and builds are the PCs, and how are they usually played?

Indon
2010-03-11, 10:23 AM
But then rather than a CR 20 (plus a bit with templates) its a CR48 or so. I'm not sure a party of 6 level 20's should be able to take out a level 48 anything barring the DM setting up a win solution.

Thus my suggestion for the epic levels.

The Terrasque is already under-CRed, and nothing but Fighter/Dreadnought levels don't boost the CR exceptionally if you stick to lower-power epic measures. While you could use the epic feats to cheese things out overmuch, like boosting his spell resistance unreasonably high, it's just as easy to just raise his stats.

Radiun
2010-03-11, 11:06 AM
Add in Warhulk 10 and Hulking Hurler 3 somewhere in there

+10STR, attacks all threatened squares at once as a standard action, throw rocks out to 250ft for 2d8+str damage, use strength on his ranged attack roll, affect 4 squares in a line extending from him with his thrown rocks, 3x toughness, throw improvised weapons... and two "two-handed hurl tricks", like throwing something up to 2 sizes larger than him or weighing as much as his medium load and spend a full round action to deal extra damage equal to twice his STR bonus, or make area attacks with those houses he's chucking about (Reflex save DC = 10 + his ranged attack bonus, which is based on strength...)

Coplantor
2010-03-11, 11:11 AM
What about a sentient tarasque with a sarrukh friend?

ericgrau
2010-03-11, 11:24 AM
If the PCs try invisibility or the like remember the tarrasque has a listen mod of +17 and it's a flat DC 20 listen check to pinpoint anyone who takes a violent action. Otherwise roll against move silently + 20. The PCs still get concealment but the tarrasque has blindfight.

Oh, and if you want a challenging fight there should be 1 tarrasque per 2 level 20 party members. If you want a challenging fight when the PCs expect to fight tarrasques, or a severe threat otherwise, then send 1 per PC. Expecting it is key. If the party doesn't know it's a tarrasque even after they see it, then the fight will be a lot harder. After all it is a DC 58 knowledge nature check to know its name and just 1 of its abilities. They'll toss all kinds of spells at it that bounce right off, try to melee it, etc. before realizing what it is.

Glimbur
2010-03-11, 12:15 PM
A single rebuked allip can take out the entire Infinite Elemental Plane of Tarrasque, and there's nothing the IEPT can do about it.

MM V changed how incorporeal works, the Tarrasque can hit an Allip now. That said, you just need a lot of Allips and you can still kill a prodigious number of Tarrasques.

Trixie
2010-03-11, 02:27 PM
One (Give it wings).

Since the NPCs are gestalt, gestalt the Terrasque's Hit Dice, for 48 class levels.

Nah, it isn't all that creative. You know what would be really fun? :smallamused:


A Lich Tarrasque! :smallbiggrin:

Sure, it would lose about 45% of its HP, making it more balanced, but it would totally change the way it works in combat, making it really unique. Additional defenses, abilities, etc.


Now, I'm curious - what a 20th level party should do to defeat undead Big T? Any suggestions?

Tyndmyr
2010-03-11, 02:35 PM
This entirely depends on what you mean by "non-optimized".

Heliomance
2010-03-11, 03:13 PM
If it is going to be fiat-unstoppable, why bother even statting it? Just say that it becomes a cutscene(you lose) when the big T comes out.

If you actually intend to do something other than railroading, it would probably be a good idea to grant flight, swap out feats, add class levels etc. This really depends on the actual builds of the characters, since even gestalt lvl-20's will vary immensely in power.

Something that isn't done very often is a Tarrasque with the intelligence to actually counter the ingenious tactics the players have concocted. How about a half-dragon Sorcerer Tarrasque leading several mundane ones?

Even if you make it as unstoppable a force of nature as it's supposed to be, there are ways to deal with it. We met a beefed up Tarrasque in a ridiculously high-powered game we were in - immune to mind-affecting, can shrug off pretty much anything you throw at it. IIRC, we plane shifted it to a demiplane, then cast Genesis to destroy the plane with it still on it.

Radiun
2010-03-11, 03:19 PM
[W]e plane shifted it to a demiplane, then cast Genesis to destroy the plane with it still on it.

That sounds like a good way to become a vestige.

Ravens_cry
2010-03-11, 04:41 PM
To make things interesting, one more than they have wishes/miracles :smalltongue:




Actually, it is such a tiny object, that the sensible thing (for DM) would be to say: You plant it? Fine, Big T doesn't notice it at all and uses its Str 45 to push forward... tearing his digestive tract in the weakened spot in the process, where you just cut it. Big T takes 25 damage, nice try, but no cigar. Oh, when you cut out of it, it stomped on you a few times as it not noticed you, for good measure :smalltongue:
Ah, but what about the carapace? It tears up Mr. T. guts then the rod hits the uber strong bowser-esque outer shell. Is it going to bust through THAT as well? The Terrasque is still hindered. If you're going to be arbitrary, why not simply rock fall,everyone dies?
Frankly sir ,I would be a bit disappointed if my DM said this. Sure, it makes the battle relatively easy, but that's what good planning is FOR. It's a creative solution to a nasty problem. And frankly sir, a creative solution is a good solution. And much more fun, in my opinion, then a mere litany of hits.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-11, 05:07 PM
MM V changed how incorporeal works, the Tarrasque can hit an Allip now. That said, you just need a lot of Allips and you can still kill a prodigious number of Tarrasques.MM V isn't errata.

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-11, 06:22 PM
Any specific Equipment I should outlaw ?

Spheres of annihilation.

Eldariel
2010-03-11, 07:21 PM
Nice start? Isn't that insta death without a saving throw for good characters?

On those levels? It's countered by quite a few natural defenses. Spell Resistance 126 is eminently acquirable, and Spell Immunities should be cast aplenty, let alone Contingencies and all-day AMFs. I mean, it's over level 20. In other words, hitting is gonna require a dozen actions at least if both sides know what they're doing. And that's before we bring epic spells into the deal. Then hitting truly gets hard.

Blasphemy being only 40' radius spread is quite inaccurate in the end. It's also an offensive action and thus not Time Stoppable...at least, not trivially. Of course, on those levels everything has a counter to Time Stop (or dies) anyways.


Really, it's the same issue as with Hulking Hurlers, Chargers and such on high levels of play; doesn't matter how much damage is being dealt if it's never delivered to the target. The first priority is hitting, damage kinda takes care of itself as a secondary note.

Optimystik
2010-03-12, 03:44 PM
A question that occurred to me via another thread - since Allips can defeat Tarrasques (Wis Drain circumvents "immune to ability damage), doesn't that mean any caster that can cast Summon Undead IV or V can tear them apart too?

Volkov
2010-03-12, 04:07 PM
On those levels? It's countered by quite a few natural defenses. Spell Resistance 126 is eminently acquirable, and Spell Immunities should be cast aplenty, let alone Contingencies and all-day AMFs. I mean, it's over level 20. In other words, hitting is gonna require a dozen actions at least if both sides know what they're doing. And that's before we bring epic spells into the deal. Then hitting truly gets hard.

Blasphemy being only 40' radius spread is quite inaccurate in the end. It's also an offensive action and thus not Time Stoppable...at least, not trivially. Of course, on those levels everything has a counter to Time Stop (or dies) anyways.


Really, it's the same issue as with Hulking Hurlers, Chargers and such on high levels of play; doesn't matter how much damage is being dealt if it's never delivered to the target. The first priority is hitting, damage kinda takes care of itself as a secondary note.
Over level 20? These people are ONLY level 20. And I'll see your spell immunity and raise you one thirty headed half axiomatic, half fiendish, half white dragon, paragon, pseudonatural, half farspawn, tarrasque of legend, advanced by 48 hit dice. So if blasphemy fails, I just hit them with dictum and OHKO all the chaotic characters any way.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-12, 04:37 PM
A question that occurred to me via another thread - since Allips can defeat Tarrasques (Wis Drain circumvents "immune to ability damage), doesn't that mean any caster that can cast Summon Undead IV or V can tear them apart too?

But it doesn't kill them. It just leaves them comatose till some Healer or other kind person restores the lost stats.
Basically "Monster in a Can" trope.

Optimystik
2010-03-12, 04:40 PM
But it doesn't kill them. It just leaves them comatose till some Healer or other kind person restores the lost stats.
Basically "Monster in a Can" trope.

It's still something their own Regeneration can't get around. You're quite at your leisure to beat it down and go find something that can Wish or Miracle it to stay dead at that point.

Volkov
2010-03-12, 04:40 PM
But it doesn't kill them. It just leaves them comatose till some Healer or other kind person restores the lost stats.
Basically "Monster in a Can" trope.

Now all we need to do is give it ten times it's normal amount of hit dice, and make it paragon, pseudonatural (epic) and a half-white dragon, and throw on the monster of legend, spellwarped, half-fiendish, and half-farspawn template if you are really diabolical. It will become a horrible lovecraftian abomination that would make Stephen king crap himself uncontrollably out of sheer terror. Add magical, spell-like, supernatural, and extraordinary abilities for it to attack at range.

To show it's really unstoppable, have an mated pair of great wyrm gold dragons and four solars, summoned forth by the king's wizard who himself is aiding the strike team of the dragons and the solars, try and stop it, and fail utterly. Then let the players know that they are the only thing between that tarrasque and a city full of people tasty snacks.

Dilb
2010-03-12, 06:38 PM
A question that occurred to me via another thread - since Allips can defeat Tarrasques (Wis Drain circumvents "immune to ability damage), doesn't that mean any caster that can cast Summon Undead IV or V can tear them apart too?

Unless I'm overlooking something, ability drain on a touch attack can rip apart a pseudonatural tarrasque with ease, with pseudonatural only giving it an extra 4 attacks before it falls unconscious. You can even add paragon, though that means the allips will have to hit on a natural 20 (as it's touch AC finally goes above 5), so it will take somewhat longer. Instead of taking about 11 attacks i.e. doable in one spell, it would take about 300 attacks, or 15 summons at CL 20 (10 summons with extend spell, 5 if it's summon undead V, etc.); assuming caster level 20, and that the allips are summoned right next to the tarrasque. Admittedly, the templates make it easier for the tarrasque to run away, but the vanilla version can do a pretty decent job of that by liberal use of it's rush ability.

Want more? Half-dragon let's it maybe kill 1 allip per day, so long as it beats 50% miss odds and doesn't roll below average for damage. Half-fiend doesn't seem to help at all. Spellwarped? Pah. Half-farspawn? Yawn. Monster of legend? 3d6 breath weapon damage means it takes 3 hits to kill a single allip. It would be hard to kill more than a couple before the summon undead spells ends anyway.

Ability drain, on a touch attack, no save, from an incorporeal creature, is not something most designers were anticipating as a PC exploitable ability. Especially if the wizard is flying, invisible, and 75 feet away, conveniently outside the range of blasphemy.

Half-golem ruins the fun, but what do you expect from constructs. And I guess if it had 30 heads, all of which had breath weapons (and the allips couldn't reduce loses by attacking from the ground under the tarrasque), there might be a few issues with getting it to work. I'm fairly certain these issues could be solved by the process of 'more allips'.