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LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-11, 11:52 AM
The wizard's little buddy. His best friend. His scout. His partner.

However, two things came to my knowledge.

1. Is there a way for familiars to channel non-touch spells?

2. With a dragon familiar, can I channel a spell thru the dragons breath weapon?


Thanks

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-11, 11:59 AM
define channel..

There imbune familar with spell like ability.
And all the spells you cast on ur self you can add to him as well.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-11, 12:01 PM
define channel..

There imbune familar with spell like ability.
And all the spells you cast on ur self you can add to him as well.

their ability to deliver touch spells

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-11, 12:02 PM
no theres no way to expand that.. closes it imbune familiar wich allows you to give them spell lieks of some spells you have


Plus i think spell bound familair from c arcane does something like that,

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-11, 12:07 PM
no theres no way to expand that.. closes it imbune familiar wich allows you to give them spell lieks of some spells you have


Plus i think spell bound familair from c arcane does something like that,

and what on dragon familiar's breath weapon. Can that deliver touch spells, such as:

Alim the Wizard and his Red Dragon familiar are fighting an orc chieftan.

Alim sends Ragna over to the orc chieftan to breathe its fire breath weapon while he has the breath weapon deliver his chill touch spell

would that work?

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-11, 12:10 PM
no not at all.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-11, 12:11 PM
no not at all.

then wtf's the point in the Dragon Familiar minus fluff? I mean, what's the point in Improved Familiar for that matter? If anything, just stick with a core familiar.

tyckspoon
2010-03-11, 12:12 PM
I'm not aware of any way to make that happen. Closest equivalent I can think of is using Imbue w/ Spell Ability to place some of the breath-weapon-altering spells into your familiar.



then wtf's the point in the Dragon Familiar minus fluff? I mean, what's the point in Improved Familiar for that matter? If anything, just stick with a core familiar.

Familiars aren't supposed to be a power tool. There are interesting things you can do with them, but they are primarily a roleplaying feature. This is why part of the Lightning Warrior joke is "doesn't have a familiar" and why familiar-substitution ACFs are so popular for optimization. The point of Dragon Familiar is in fact almost entirely fluff- you have such a good relationship with dragons/a dragon that one of them entrusts a wyrmling to you to help raise (or you found a lost wyrmling and took it upon yourself to raise, or whatever.) There's a lot of Draconomicon feats that are like that.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-11, 12:13 PM
then wtf's the point in the Dragon Familiar minus fluff? I mean, what's the point in Improved Familiar for that matter? If anything, just stick with a core familiar.

mostly just fluff there are some amazing builds that use them.

Also you dragon a has a breath weapon is generaly stronger then a regular familiar.

Im a big fan of improved familiars that are huminiodish like imps or mehpits... them giving them full plate and a shield

makes them more durable. and they can attak and i don't feel like i need to worry about them as much.

edit: as far as a dragon realy there breath weapon and the fact that you have a dragon by ur side.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-11, 12:16 PM
mostly just fluff there are some amazing builds that use them.

Also you dragon a has a breath weapon is generaly stronger then a regular familiar.

Im a big fan of improved familiars that are huminiodish like imps or mehpits... them giving them full plate and a shield

makes them more durable. and they can attak and i don't feel like i need to worry about them as much.

edit: as far as a dragon realy there breath weapon and the fact that you have a dragon by ur side.

So there are awesome builds to make unstoppable familiars who deal insanity damage? Can any be done with just an Owl Familiar?

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-11, 12:19 PM
So there are awesome builds to make unstoppable familiars who deal insanity damage? Can any be done with just an Owl Familiar?

No and no.
I never said any thing about insanity damage.


Check out the Hexblade handbook there alla bout there familiars.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-11, 12:20 PM
Familiars aren't supposed to be a power tool. There are interesting things you can do with them, but they are primarily a roleplaying feature. This is why part of the Lightning Warrior joke is "doesn't have a familiar" and why familiar-substitution ACFs are so popular for optimization. The point of Dragon Familiar is in fact almost entirely fluff- you have such a good relationship with dragons/a dragon that one of them entrusts a wyrmling to you to help raise (or you found a lost wyrmling and took it upon yourself to raise, or whatever.) There's a lot of Draconomicon feats that are like that.

However, Dragon Mount and Dragon Cohort aren't entirely fluff. I mean, a Celestial Gold Dragon makes a deadly Paladin Mount and a Fiendish Red Dragon makes a killer Fiendish Servant for Blackguards.

And don't get me started on Dragon Cohort...

so the major advantage of Dragon Familiar is basically a bigger HD'd familiar with a breath weapon? and the advantage of a 1d8 breath weapon is?

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-11, 12:22 PM
However, Dragon Mount and Dragon Cohort aren't entirely fluff. I mean, a Celestial Gold Dragon makes a deadly Paladin Mount and a Fiendish Red Dragon makes a killer Fiendish Servant for Blackguards.

And don't get me started on Dragon Cohort...

so the major advantage of Dragon Familiar is basically a bigger HD'd familiar with a breath weapon? and the advantage of a 1d8 breath weapon is?



No it just has a breath weapon is the point and those mounts realy are kinda meh... I wouldn't waste feats on them.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-11, 12:24 PM
The beholder kin is an odd tiny sized aberration from Monsters of Faerun,
it has several weak little 0 level spell eye rays. However if taken as a familiar (via a feat) one these rays is transformed into a spell ray allowing the caster to channel a touch spell through a ray.
It is not exactly channeling non-touch spells like a psicrystal is capable of doing, but it is delivering touch spells at a range.

As for battle familiars.... share spell, buffs and polymorph do the math.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-11, 12:29 PM
The beholder kin is an odd tiny sized aberration from Monsters of Faerun,
it has several weak little 0 level spell eye rays. However if taken as a familiar (via a feat) one these rays is transformed into a spell ray allowing the caster to channel a touch spell through a ray.
Wow, that's... extremely good. Shivering Touch, anyone?

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-11, 12:30 PM
The beholder kin is an odd tiny sized aberration from Monsters of Faerun,
it has several weak little 0 level spell eye rays. However if taken as a familiar (via a feat) one these rays is transformed into a spell ray allowing the caster to channel a touch spell through a ray.

As for battle familiars.... share spell, buffs and polymorph do the math.

So a beholderkin CAN be a familiar????????? And with Drakken Familiar, it gets a breath weapon, but can't deliver touch spells. scrap Drakken Familiar (although a Draconic Beholderkin would be BA, as would a Half-Dragon Beholder ;3)

Kylarra
2010-03-11, 12:35 PM
Wow, that's... extremely good. Shivering Touch, anyone?it's still only a range of 35 ft and the dragon will see you cast the spell on your familiar, but yeah, it's pretty nice.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-11, 12:37 PM
it's still only a range of 35 ft and the dragon will see you cast the spell on your familiar, but yeah, it's pretty nice.

Still and silent spell, concealed spellcasting and the dragon thinks you scratched your bum, when you actually cast shivering touch through your little buddy.

Kylarra
2010-03-11, 12:44 PM
Still and silent spell, concealed spellcasting and the dragon thinks you scratched your bum, when you actually cast shivering touch through your little buddy.Realistically, only that last one matters, and your sleight of hand check as a cross class skill is probably not going to do much against a dragon's spot check. :smalltongue:

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-11, 12:45 PM
Realistically, only that last one matters, and your sleight of hand check as a cross class skill is probably not going to do much against a dragon's spot check. :smalltongue:

Criminal Background feat @ lv1. Problem solved

Kylarra
2010-03-11, 12:47 PM
Criminal Background feat @ lv1. Problem solvedHow are you solving the fact that the dragon has 1.5x as many HD as you do on average?:smalltongue:

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-11, 12:49 PM
How are you solving the fact that the dragon has 1.5x as many HD as you do on average?:smalltongue:

have the female of the party flash the dragon?

Voice of Reason
2010-03-11, 12:50 PM
The reason you take a dragon familiar is primarily fluff, but your dragon can also wear barding, comes with higher defense, higher attack, hypothetically higher hit points, more natural skill points (6+int instead of 2+int), and generally higher intellect. That last part may not seem important, but it allows you to justify to your DM a smart familiar in battle. An owl familiar probably isn't likely to reach into your haversack for a tanglefoot bag and chuck it at the flying enemy, but for other familiars, its not only reasonable, it's expected.

Besides the beholderkin, I can't think of a way to channel spells per se through your familiar, but there are certain spells you can throw on a familiar that it can make good use of. For example, Call Lightning, Call Lightning Storm, Dragon Breath, Lord of the Sky, etc. can all be cast on your familiar, who will then channel their abilities each turn (presuming your DM lets you get away with the "my familiar is intelligent enough" argument; this is where it helps to have a dragon familiar, who can actually expect to cast spells on their own). It may not seem like a lot, but an extra 3d6 every round at level 5 is fabulous for a non-optimized party.

tyckspoon
2010-03-11, 01:03 PM
(presuming your DM lets you get away with the "my familiar is intelligent enough"...

Familiars gain Intelligence as part of their progression and the ability to speak with their master verbally at familiar-bonus-value 5 (which is where you will normally get to if you are not using early-entry tricks for your PrCs.) By the time you can make use of Dragon Familiar at all those particular advantages have already been granted to a normal familiar. Even the Int 6 granted to things just for being a familiar at all (level 1 familiar bonus) is enough to trigger spells if you have some way of explaining what you want the familiar to do.

Voice of Reason
2010-03-11, 01:12 PM
Skill points and greater attack are not parts of the familiar progression, although the latter of the two is not the most compelling arguement in favor of an improved familiar.

Regarding spellcasting, I'm not disagreeing with that assessment, but I know several people who would, if for no other reason than the familiar's intelligence has a penalty attached to it; to each DM his/her own.

John Campbell
2010-03-11, 01:33 PM
The reason you take a dragon familiar is primarily fluff, but your dragon can also wear barding, comes with higher defense, higher attack, hypothetically higher hit points, more natural skill points (6+int instead of 2+int), and generally higher intellect. That last part may not seem important, but it allows you to justify to your DM a smart familiar in battle. An owl familiar probably isn't likely to reach into your haversack for a tanglefoot bag and chuck it at the flying enemy, but for other familiars, its not only reasonable, it's expected.

Even stock familiars get enhanced Intelligence, which increases with level. I had a DM who used to pull that, "Well, your familiar isn't smart enough to..." crap, making me point out to him repeatedly that the familiar had a low but reasonable Int, a fairly high Wis, and shared all of my skills, including max ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana), on top of that. He finally shut up about it when, somewhere in the mid-levels, I pointed out to him that my familiar was not only smarter than his frigging DMPC, but actually smarter than anyone else in the party besides me and the bard.

And familars don't gain the ability to speak until 5th level, but even a 3 Int - and they do better than that from the beginning - is sufficient to understand a language - Common unless otherwise specified - and, for non-Barbarians, provides literacy in it.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-11, 01:44 PM
Even stock familiars get enhanced Intelligence, which increases with level. I had a DM who used to pull that, "Well, your familiar isn't smart enough to..." crap, making me point out to him repeatedly that the familiar had a low but reasonable Int, a fairly high Wis, and shared all of my skills, including max ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana), on top of that. He finally shut up about it when, somewhere in the mid-levels, I pointed out to him that my familiar was not only smarter than his frigging DMPC, but actually smarter than anyone else in the party besides me and the bard.

And familars don't gain the ability to speak until 5th level, but even a 3 Int - and they do better than that from the beginning - is sufficient to understand a language - Common unless otherwise specified - and, for non-Barbarians, provides literacy in it.

don't beholderkin familiars gain INT bonuses?

In fact, isn't a beholderkin familiar basically a BABY BEHOLDER?

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-11, 01:50 PM
So there are awesome builds to make unstoppable familiars who deal insanity damage? Can any be done with just an Owl Familiar?

A Combat-oriented familiar is very powerful, almost as much as the Master himself.


Here's some ideas:

Duskblade with Obtain Familiar
Transmuter-specialist Wizard
Beguiler (UMD abuse)
Hexblade
Jade Phoenix Mage

arguskos
2010-03-11, 01:53 PM
don't beholderkin familiars gain INT bonuses?

In fact, isn't a beholderkin familiar basically a BABY BEHOLDER?
The Beholderkin they made reference to is specifically an Eyeball Beholderkin. It really isn't that great honestly. "Beholderkin" refers to all beholder-like creatures, such as Hive Mothers, Overseers, Gauths, Eyes of the Deep, Eyeballs, Death Kisses, etc. Sorry, pet peeve. :smallwink:

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-11, 01:54 PM
A Combat-oriented familiar is very powerful, almost as much as the Master himself.


Here's some ideas:

Duskblade with Obtain Familiar
Transmuter-specialist Wizard
Beguiler (UMD abuse)
Hexblade
Jade Phoenix Mage

Here's a good question reguarding Beholderkin familiars:

Since a Force Missle Mage gets like 20+ Magic missles, and magic missle "technically" is a touch attack, and my beholderkin gets 6 eyes, can It launch almost 6 of my magic missle barrages/turn???

arguskos
2010-03-11, 01:55 PM
Since a Force Missle Mage gets like 20+ Magic missles, and magic missle "technically" is a touch attack, and my beholderkin gets 6 eyes, can It launch almost 6 of my magic missle barrages/turn???
Magic Missile isn't a touch attack, it doesn't have an attack roll of any kind.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-11, 01:56 PM
The Beholderkin they made reference to is specifically an Eyeball Beholderkin. It really isn't that great honestly. "Beholderkin" refers to all beholder-like creatures, such as Hive Mothers, Overseers, Gauths, Eyes of the Deep, Eyeballs, Death Kisses, etc. Sorry, pet peeve. :smallwink:

I don't have Lords of Madness right now. I'm at school, and therefore AFB.

cuz if how I'm reading it, I get to fire many many many magic missles

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-11, 01:57 PM
Magic Missile isn't a touch attack, it doesn't have an attack roll of any kind.

It's referred to as a Ranged Touch Attack, therefore hypothetically it counts.

Plus, it'd just look REALLY cool to see THAT many magic missles fired

Kylarra
2010-03-11, 01:58 PM
Magic Missile isn't a touch attack, it doesn't have an attack roll of any kind.Additionally, you still have to cast the spell yourself onto the beholderkin before it can fire its 35' range ray, so it's not action economy abuse at all.



It's referred to as a Ranged Touch Attack, therefore hypothetically it counts.

Plus, it'd just look REALLY cool to see THAT many magic missles fired


Magic Missile
Evocation [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets: Up to five creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage.

The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat or has less than total cover or total concealment. Specific parts of a creature can’t be singled out. Inanimate objects are not damaged by the spell.

For every two caster levels beyond 1st, you gain an additional missile—two at 3rd level, three at 5th, four at 7th, and the maximum of five missiles at 9th level or higher. If you shoot multiple missiles, you can have them strike a single creature or several creatures. A single missile can strike only one creature. You must designate targets before you check for spell resistance or roll damage. :smallconfused:

arguskos
2010-03-11, 01:59 PM
It's referred to as a Ranged Touch Attack, therefore hypothetically it counts.

Plus, it'd just look REALLY cool to see THAT many magic missles fired
...no it's not? I'm looking at Magic Missile right now, and there is no mention of touch attack anywhere in the spell. You may be thinking of Scorching Ray?

EDIT: @^ Not to mention it doesn't work anyhow. :smalltongue:

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-11, 02:00 PM
Additionally, you still have to cast the spell yourself onto the beholderkin before it can fire its 35' range ray, so it's not action economy abuse at all.

...

so no Magic Missle Machine Gun?

I'm sad now....That was my coolest concept yet...

Kylarra
2010-03-11, 02:02 PM
EDIT: @^ Not to mention it doesn't work anyhow. :smalltongue:Yeah I know, I was just pointing out that even with the hypothetical that you could spellray a magic missile spell, you'd be gaining the advantage for exactly one alpha strike within a range of 75' (40' move + 35' range ray).

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-11, 02:08 PM
...

so no Magic Missle Machine Gun?

I'm sad now....That was my coolest concept yet...

you can be a magic missle machine gun why would it be cooler through a familar?

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-11, 02:10 PM
you can be a magic missle machine gun why would it be cooler through a familar?

ok. Magic Missle autoturret who can sip tea and plant his familiar somewhere to just let them rip

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-11, 02:13 PM
ok. Magic Missle autoturret who can sip tea and plant his familiar somewhere to just let them rip


I guess.

you could give em a wand

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-11, 02:13 PM
...

so no Magic Missle Machine Gun?

I'm sad now....That was my coolest concept yet...

Rod of Many Wands+3 Wands of Chain Missile (Spell Compendium) CL 20th=30 Magic Missiles/round.

Deth Muncher
2010-03-11, 03:05 PM
ok. Magic Missle autoturret who can sip tea and plant his familiar somewhere to just let them rip

Just make sure there aren't any spies in the base.