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Rezby
2010-03-11, 07:25 PM
Today we started a kinda new campaign using characters from the PHB (and the DMG as well, thanks to me) only, since the current DM in the group got really pissed when one of the characters from the previous campaign used alternate rulings and such to play around the then-DM. Myself and the third optimizer of the group (4th was DM then) may or may not have contributed to his anger at non-core.

Our current party has a ranger, a wizard who has no idea what he's doing (just switched from the 4e campaign group to the 3.5 campaign group. He's a blaster wizard), a Pathfinder variant rogue whose stats are all in the 13-18 range due to some minor adjustments (3d6+1d4 for stats. Yes), and a cleric.

So for my character, I decided to go prestige. I thought about going the Horizon Tripper path (what with once you get 6th level of it, you basically have access to unlimited time in an alternate plane), but he said there's no room for one of those in his campaign. All prestige classes from the DMG must be pre-approved before being taken. I'm thinking about going into Mystic Theurge with a Druid/Sorcerer since I'm not a big fan of preparing spells from my spell list each day and wild shape is awesome (I tried, but the DM wouldn't let me take the animal companion is an elemental variant from PHBII). :smallsigh:

What do you guys think? Is there a better build/am I just being stupid here? Is there a better way to optimize my guy? I'm fine with mostly any class but I would prefer to not be a second wizard or a second cleric in the group.

EDIT: Its not gestalt. Though I (and the pathfinder rogue) sorely wish it were. Monk2/Druid18//Paladin2/Sorcerer8/Mystic Theurge10 would have been quite the optimal build (Monk's sweet stats+Evasion and Paladin's Divine Grace, mainly, since my Cha is through the roof) for me.

Eldariel
2010-03-11, 07:32 PM
If you really just want an efficient core-only build, Druid 7. It's quite possibly the strongest level 7 (non-broken) character in the game, perfectly single-classed and perfectly core-only. Just do everything the RAWtarded way and there should be nothing to complain about; Roll/Take 10 Knowledge (Nature) on every creature you summon/AC/wildshape by PHB guidelines, acquire Dragonhide Wild armor, put on your Monk's Belt after Wildshaping or dip 1st level in Monk (I suggest the Wild armor rather though if multiclassing is an issue), pick Crafting-feats so you can pick whatever items you want, Natural Spell obviously and then e.g. Augment Summoning. Then just go to Druid 20.

Allows you to pick up the slack for the rest of the party as necessary, cover any/all party roles and kick ass. Brown Bear, Giant Crocodile, Dire Bat or Riding Dog as example ACs, Deinonychus/Eagle/Crocodile/Baboon Wildshape (next level gives you Large Wildshape and stuff like Brown Bear/Polar Bear, Dire Lion and Rhinoceros) along with Greater Magic Fang affecting all natural weapons on both you and your AC, get Bardings for your AC, use Ioun Stones and the like yourself to avoid any issues with Wildshape Item Melding, go to town, etc.

Rezby
2010-03-11, 07:37 PM
I've thought of going pure Druid, but the sorcerer spells are so sweet... plus the familiar bonus doesn't hurt.

Also my DM is allowing me to take Leadership and have a buffbot cleric cohort. Considering taking that and also possibly for the sake of simplicity, making it my animal companion.

Eldariel
2010-03-11, 07:45 PM
I've thought of going pure Druid, but the sorcerer spells are so sweet... plus the familiar bonus doesn't hurt.

Be a pure Sorcerer or a pure Druid. The mix just doesn't work without Arcane Hierophant, and even then, straight either is just stronger (which is just more pronounced in a party with full casters); getting spells 3 levels late is just gonna make your head hurt and Wildshape is a lot less impressive when your HD limit is half your character level and your caster level is gonna suck so any anti-casting tools are gonna rock you and...well, let's just say it's a bad idea to split casting classes in one character.


Also my DM is allowing me to take Leadership and have a buffbot cleric cohort. Considering taking that and also possibly for the sake of simplicity, making it my animal companion.

...if your DM allows it, sure. Normally though, Animal Companions are supposed to be Int 2 or less and thus not really able to take classes. Though why do you really need a buffbot Cleric? Druid is a perfectly able buffer on his own right and you already have a party Cleric covering Magic Vestment, Heroes' Feast and the like; get him Pearl of Power if you want some of those.

Wouldn't you rather just want that Cohort Sorcerer, for example, if those spells appeal to you? Would give you at least some manner of access to them. Or a cohort Bard for that matter? Nice buffer, one your party lacks, and the perfect cohort.


Oh yeah, I'm supposed to include the standard issue GiTP lecture here:
"Get along with your DM & fellow players, don't play against but with them, ensure everyone has fun, deal with OOC issues on game rules and such OOC instead of playing past them, yadda yadda yadda"

Since you can find it on like 50% of threads here, posted by various people, I don't think I really need to tho; it's posted in enough places as it stands.

Rezby
2010-03-11, 07:50 PM
Oh, I hadn't thought of that. That works. I think I'll stick with pure Druid (though I might still need some help in optimizing him to his best efficiency - I've never played a druid before) with either a bard or a sorcerer cohort. I'm playing a human, btw.

Thanks for the help, I much appreciate it.

Camelot
2010-03-11, 07:52 PM
I don't know 3rd edition, but it sounds like your DM is enforcing rules that you don't want to follow. You should try to have a friendly conversation with your DM to come to an agreement on what kind of game you're playing, instead of trying to sneak around his rules to powergame. Or else find another DM.

I apologize if I'm reading this wrong. It's just that as a DM, I wouldn't want my players trying to sneak around our rules (though I usually allow anything in the books anyway). It makes it less fun for the DM if the players can overcome any problem easily.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-11, 08:03 PM
Oh, I hadn't thought of that. That works. I think I'll stick with pure Druid (though I might still need some help in optimizing him to his best efficiency - I've never played a druid before) with either a bard or a sorcerer cohort. I'm playing a human, btw.

Thanks for the help, I much appreciate it.

Get Natural spell at level 6, that is the best optimization offer I can give, though there is a druid handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0) in BG is a great place to go.

Be warned that Druid is one of the most powerful classes and if your DM is restricting your power maybe it is no the best options.

Also in Windstaff leeky's inmortal Words

"I am druid, I've got class features stronger than your entire class!"

Eldariel
2010-03-11, 08:08 PM
Human is the best Core-race so you're just fine. Craft Wondrous Items and Craft Magic Arms & Armor are consideration-worthy feats; you obviously want Natural Spell and Leadership. Though I guess you can't pick both yet; I suppose you'll pick Leadership first and Natural Spell on 9. Stick out of Wildshape while casting until then. If you pick Dire Bat animal companion, you could e.g. ride it at relative safety while raining death upon your adversaries. Hell, if DM doesn't allow Wild-property to ignore armor proficiency crap, Heavy Armor Prof may be worth wasting a feat on. Oh, and do check with your DM whether you can already pick feats you only use in Wildshape or if you gotta wait until you get Wildshape (multiattack is the posterchild here).

Craft Wondrous Items fits on 3 and gets you Ioun Stones and Beads of Karma and Pearls of Power and such. Other than that, you prolly want Wands. Mostly your own spells should take care of you just fine. On the first level, you could consider everything from Improved Initiative to Spell Focus: Conjuration > Augment Summoning (you summon spontaneously so this is very useful; you gotta learn what good summons you have available of course though - Unicorn on SNAIV is notable for being a healbot while others have various combat maneuvers and such) to Spell Penetrations to...yeah.

Spell selection is something to learn. Entangle is an excellent 1st level spell and should probably stick around. Other than that, the first level spells are a bit weaker. Higher levels are obviously better though. Focus on the control spells if your Wizard isn't doing that. And buffs, of course. Greater Magic Fang and Barkskin are obvious, and there are few other decent ones on the Druid-list. Lesser Restoration isn't probably worth preparing, but it's worth having around in Wand or such in case things go south.


Umm, Druid Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0) may be of some help. It covers stuff including Core; you just gotta weed out anything with book recommendation after them.

Oh, and do figure from your DM what's his stance on equipment put on after Wildshape. If it's not allowed, you can still reasonably use:
- Animated Shield
- Wild Armor
- Ioun Stones

which covers pretty much everything generic. You'll lack a save booster, but that shouldn't be a problem for a Druid. If it IS allowed, Monk's Belt is probably the best source of AC.

Oh, and for stats, you obviously build around Wildshape so:
Wis > Con > Int > Cha/Dex > Str

You don't intend on melee outside your animal forms so melee is trivial and Dex is sorta trivial too (you can stay in animal forms all day; lasts hours/level). Con still determines your HP so it's relevant, but Wis above all else. Then Int and Cha as nice mental skills. Skill points and base bonuses to things are fun.

Oh, and since you'll need Handle Animal for your animal companion anyways, you might as well figure out what else it's good for:
The Handle Animal Guide (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871522/The_Handle_Animal_Guide)


Oh, and skills, you definitely want maxed:
Concentration
Knowledge (Nature)
Handle Animal (well, at least so you have +10 with your AC)
Spot
Listen (not strictly necessary, but as Druids are by far the best class to pump Listen & Spot, it's generally a good idea)

Auxillary skills to consider pumping:
Spellcraft (you have so many other casters it's not really necessary, but still nice)
Survival (you can do most stuff with just Wis-bonuses and Take 10; 5 ranks to know north may be nice tho)
Tumble (cross-class; obviously useful for anyone getting into melee)
Jump (related to Tumble for synergies)
Balance (5 ranks to avoid being flat-footed while Balancing; pesky stuff like Grease causes Balancing a lot, so...)
Sense Motive (Wis-based so mite as well consider)

RiOrius
2010-03-11, 08:24 PM
Today we started a kinda new campaign using characters from the PHB (and the DMG as well, thanks to me) only, since the current DM in the group got really pissed when one of the characters from the previous campaign used alternate rulings and such to play around the then-DM. Myself and the third optimizer of the group (4th was DM then) may or may not have contributed to his anger at non-core.

. . .

Do you really have to go hogwild optimizing here? I mean, it sounds like the DM doesn't want any funny business, and as we all know, there's plenty of core-only funny business you could take.

Run a blaster Sorc, or a Barbarian. Play a Druid without Natural Spell. Play a Paladin.

I don't think you don't need any help optimizing a character. You can probably build a character that's way more optimized than your DM would like. It sounds to me like you should reign yourself in a bit to try to accommodate your DM.

Rezby
2010-03-11, 08:29 PM
I don't know 3rd edition, but it sounds like your DM is enforcing rules that you don't want to follow. You should try to have a friendly conversation with your DM to come to an agreement on what kind of game you're playing, instead of trying to sneak around his rules to powergame. Or else find another DM.

I apologize if I'm reading this wrong. It's just that as a DM, I wouldn't want my players trying to sneak around our rules (though I usually allow anything in the books anyway). It makes it less fun for the DM if the players can overcome any problem easily.

Its not so much he's enforcing rules we don't want to follow inasmuch as he's banning all none-core material, which i don't blame him for, considering how much nonsense was had in the campaign before it effectively ended and we switched.

Thanks Eldarial, you've been a great help. Now I'll be able to build my character without feeling that its not living up to its potential (I must admit I used to play blaster wizards and VoP monks).