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Sila Prirode
2010-03-11, 08:44 PM
I was reading through the Complete Mage, and I stumbled upon Energy Gestalt. I don't want to invalidate copyright, but gist of the feat (which can be taken at level 3) is that when you cast two spells one after another you gain extra bonus. Spells involved:
-> Fire spell after acid spells makes affected foes nauseated for one round
-> Sonic spell after cold spell deals 50% more damage
-> Lightning spell after cold slows them for one round

Now, it certainly isn't over the top, but for blasting dedicated sorceror it can make a world of difference. For example you can go Lesser Orb of Cold, followed by Orb of Sound. On Sorceror level 8 it would do 4d8 from Orb of Cold (average 18) plus 8d4 +50% (average 30), which totals to 50 damage. And you can do that 4 times a day at minimum, and still have half your first level spells, and all second and third level spells.

And that is just for damage, for example using Acid Splash (yes, a cantrip) followed by Lesser Orb of Fire to lock him for one round (or if he makes a save, sickened, but that is not to shabby too).

And imagine when you start going AoE, you can slow or nausea multiple opponents every two turns, in addition to dealing damage.

Sure this is totally suboptimal when you can efectively end battles with just one spell, but which way is more fun for other guys at the table?

Starbuck_II
2010-03-11, 08:50 PM
And that is just for damage, for example using Acid Splash (yes, a cantrip) followed by Lesser Orb of Fire to lock him for one round (or if he makes a save, sickened, but that is not to shabby too).

And imagine when you start going AoE, you can slow or nausea multiple opponents every two turns, in addition to dealing damage.

Sure this is totally suboptimal when you can efectively end battles with just one spell, but which way is more fun for other guys at the table?

Cast Arcane Fusion (2 spells at same time). 4th lv that casts 3rd and 1st at same action (uses only the 4th level spell slot).
Combined with this feat might be useful.

Eurus
2010-03-11, 08:53 PM
I was reading through the Complete Mage, and I stumbled upon Energy Gestalt. I don't want to invalidate copyright, but gist of the feat (which can be taken at level 3) is that when you cast two spells one after another you gain extra bonus. Spells involved:
-> Fire spell after acid spells makes affected foes nauseated for one round
-> Sonic spell after cold spell deals 50% more damage
-> Lightning spell after cold slows them for one round

Now, it certainly isn't over the top, but for blasting dedicated sorceror it can make a world of difference. For example you can go Lesser Orb of Cold, followed by Orb of Sound. On Sorceror level 8 it would do 4d8 from Orb of Cold (average 18) plus 8d4 +50% (average 30), which totals to 50 damage. And you can do that 4 times a day at minimum, and still have half your first level spells, and all second and third level spells.

And that is just for damage, for example using Acid Splash (yes, a cantrip) followed by Lesser Orb of Fire to lock him for one round (or if he makes a save, sickened, but that is not to shabby too).

And imagine when you start going AoE, you can slow or nausea multiple opponents every two turns, in addition to dealing damage.

Sure this is totally suboptimal when you can efectively end battles with just one spell, but which way is more fun for other guys at the table?

Doesn't the cold-then-sonic one only work on constructs?

Sila Prirode
2010-03-11, 09:29 PM
Doesn't the cold-then-sonic one only work on constructs?

I hadn't seen that line anywhere.
Also, on topic of Arcane Fusion, I dont think you can do that, because of the "spells you cast in 2 consecutive rounds" line.
But still, this give nice debuff on top of direct damage, I'm sure that is nice enough to be worthy considering.

Admiral Squish
2010-03-11, 09:33 PM
Does this work with psionics? I totally want to do that with my blaster-psion.

Also, could you say, cast a cone of cold then a quickened shout in the same round to do the extra damage? Would that work?

Flickerdart
2010-03-11, 09:36 PM
I hadn't seen that line anywhere.
Also, on topic of Arcane Fusion, I dont think you can do that, because of the "spells you cast in 2 consecutive rounds" line.
But still, this give nice debuff on top of direct damage, I'm sure that is nice enough to be worthy considering.
You can cast an Orb of Cold, and then both an Orb of Sound and Orb of Lightning and get both the slow and extra damage effects.

ericgrau
2010-03-11, 10:17 PM
Empowered scorching rays for 84 damage in 2 rounds. Or if you need to switch up the energy type to get around resistance, or if you need to hit multiple baddies, then toss a couple lightning bolts for 70 damage. Or combo whatever energy types you need for that class. Save the orb spells for the high levels when a lot of creatures have SR and your caster AB isn't so low that you can miss even on touch attacks.

The nauseated effect sounds decent if you can AoE it. Though I don't know any area acid spells. Sickened OTOH is only a -2 to the enemies' rolls and really isn't worth your time. Slow is ok, and I think you could AoE that.

Rainbownaga
2010-03-11, 10:38 PM
Though I don't know any area acid spells.

Acid fog? Energy substitution acid?

Sila Prirode
2010-03-12, 09:40 AM
Energy substitution acid?
Energy substitution (acid) on Fireball, then regular Fireball the round after for AoE nausea.

Orb of Cold, then Orb of Sound, Quickened Lesser Orb of Lightning for nice damage and slow.

Point is, you have a nice addition on top of damaging spells, let's say that you really like that Fireball of yours, this way you can not only deal 2 times Fireball damage, but at least half of the foes would take only move action in the next round (because the Fort DC is equal to Fireball DC, with Spell Focus (Evocation) it's 14+Int(Cha), so around 17-18).

And I'm not sure about Psionic, this feat has as a req Spell Focus (Evocation), and caster level 3, if you change that to manifester level 3, and Psionic Endowment it could see it working.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-12, 09:46 AM
would that feat and the feat that lets you deal a secound energy type stack?

Sila Prirode
2010-03-12, 09:52 AM
would that feat and the feat that lets you deal a secound energy type stack?

Yes, but how I'm reading it, you still need to hit with spells in two rounds.
For example, you could have cast Cone of Cold with Electricity damage on top, but you would need to cast it again the next round, and then enemies would be slowed.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-12, 09:55 AM
Yes, but how I'm reading it, you still need to hit with spells in two rounds.
For example, you could have cast Cone of Cold with Electricity damage on top, but you would need to cast it again the next round, and then enemies would be slowed.

twin spell might help with that.

AbyssKnight
2010-03-12, 10:20 AM
you could use Energy Admixture to chain the effects

rd 1- Cast Acid spell
rd 2- Cast Admixtured Cold/Fire spell (nauseated)
rd 3- Cast Admixtured Electric/Acid spell (slowed) or Sonic/Acid (+50% dmg)
rd 4- Cast Admixtured Cold/Fire spell (nauseated)
.......

Just keep the chain going and have differrent status effects every round after the first.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-12, 10:30 AM
you could use Energy Admixture to chain the effects

rd 1- Cast Acid spell
rd 2- Cast Admixtured Cold/Fire spell (nauseated)
rd 3- Cast Admixtured Electric/Acid spell (slowed) or Sonic/Acid (+50% dmg)
rd 4- Cast Admixtured Cold/Fire spell (nauseated)
.......

Just keep the chain going and have differrent status effects every round after the first.

that is true.. start it off with an acid/cold spell
followed by fire/sonic two status effects

Cyrion
2010-03-12, 10:33 AM
You could make it more effecient in terms of numbers of spells cast with Repeat Spell. For example, have the cold spell repeat and follow with orb of sound in rounds two and three. You're hitting with 4 damage spells with bonus damage on two of them for the cost of 3 and some metamagic. If you're creative with your energy admixture you'll also have the possiblity of layering on the debuffs. This will, of course, be most effective if you can drop the metamagic cost.

subject42
2010-03-12, 10:35 AM
Though I don't know any area acid spells.

Acid Breath is a level 3 spell that gives you an acid cone.

Sila Prirode
2010-03-12, 11:37 AM
You could make it more effecient in terms of numbers of spells cast with Repeat Spell. For example, have the cold spell repeat and follow with orb of sound in rounds two and three. You're hitting with 4 damage spells with bonus damage on two of them for the cost of 3 and some metamagic. If you're creative with your energy admixture you'll also have the possiblity of layering on the debuffs. This will, of course, be most effective if you can drop the metamagic cost.

You can always go standard route, Arcane Thesis on one of the Orb Spells, and make sure to not abuse it the standard way (no Incantatrix, no other reducers, and no Rods). That why most DMs will let it fly, and you have got yourself a nice spellcaster guy whose signature spell can make a worlds difference.

Go Blaster power? :smallbiggrin:

Prime32
2010-03-12, 12:01 PM
You can cast an Orb of Cold, and then both an Orb of Sound and Orb of Lightning and get both the slow and extra damage effects.Born of the Three Thunders (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Born_Of_The_Three_Thunders) anyone?

Sila Prirode
2010-03-12, 01:58 PM
Born of the Three Thunders (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Born_Of_The_Three_Thunders) anyone?

And on top of that, you can do that to multiple targets, just cast Artic Haze (Frostburn 88, Obscuring Mist with cold damage on top, 30 ft radius), or Snowball Swarm (cold Fireball, level 2 spell), and then Lightning (Sonic) Bolt.
What's that you say, 2 Fort save for stunned or slow, and one Ref for prone?

Eldan
2010-03-12, 02:02 PM
If you cast two energy admixtured quickened spells in round one, and another 2 energy admixtured quickened spells in the next, thereby covering four energy types, how many effects can you get up at once? :smallbiggrin:

ericgrau
2010-03-12, 02:19 PM
That'd be up to 3. Does the class really allow that?

Acid breath seems like the way to go for acid assuming it does decent damage. Otherwise the core acid spells tend to be fairly piddly on damage and then admixture or substitution seems like the best way. Since a sorcerer can apply metamagic on the fly, those may be a good idea anyway since it lets you customize to the encounter at will.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-12, 02:58 PM
That'd be up to 3. Does the class really allow that?

Acid breath seems like the way to go for acid assuming it does decent damage. Otherwise the core acid spells tend to be fairly piddly on damage and then admixture or substitution seems like the best way. Since a sorcerer can apply metamagic on the fly, those may be a good idea anyway since it lets you customize to the encounter at will.

It's a feat, not a PrC.

Sila Prirode
2010-03-12, 03:15 PM
Acid breath seems like the way to go for acid assuming it does decent damage. Otherwise the core acid spells tend to be fairly piddly on damage and then admixture or substitution seems like the best way. Since a sorcerer can apply metamagic on the fly, those may be a good idea anyway since it lets you customize to the encounter at will.

Yes, it's a feat with caster level 3 and Spell Focus (Evocation) as requirments. Also take note, that Acid Fireball is +0 Metamagic (Energy Substition (Acid)), followed next round by regular fireball is aoe disable and damage. Level 5 wizard would deal 35 damage on average (17.5 on Ref save), and Fort DC14+Int for nausea.



If you cast two energy admixtured quickened spells in round one, and another 2 energy admixtured quickened spells in the next, thereby covering four energy types, how many effects can you get up at once? :smallbiggrin:

With this feat alone, 4 Forts, two for nausea, two for slow. And if that isn't enough to slow them down, nothing will be :smallbiggrin:
Also, you don't even need 4 spells, just one Cold/Acid in round one, and two Fire/Electricity in round 2.

Pechvarry
2010-03-12, 03:26 PM
Still a fun feat, but sorry to dampen spirits:

The cold > sonic use is +50% damage to objects and constructs only.

ericgrau
2010-03-12, 03:38 PM
And you need to say "Hasta la vista, baby" when you cast the 2nd spell on a construct.

Sila Prirode
2010-03-12, 03:55 PM
Still a fun feat, but sorry to dampen spirits:

The cold > sonic use is +50% damage to objects and constructs only.

Oh, right. But it still doesn't matter, because Acid>Fire and Cold>Electricity is still better deal, and more easily obtained.