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View Full Version : Advice on a Chameleon semi-gish



Yorrin
2010-03-11, 11:13 PM
Admittedly, this is more of a good melee build with a bit of casting than a pure gish. But here's the idea: Use Chameleon to get Turn Undead, Rage, and the +6 to a stat. Then use Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) with Find the Gap, Lion's Charge, and of course Divine Power. Meaning I'm attacking with a full BAB against Touch AC and full attack when I charge. It takes a lot of "Extra Turning," but I like the results a lot.

The actual build:
Human Paragon 3/Warrior(UA version) 6/Chameleon 10/Horizon Walker 1
(Technically HP3/War2/Cham10/War4/HW1, to put it in order...)

Feats:
1- Able Learner
1- ((Homebrew 1st lvl only flavor feat. Don't worry about it.))
2- Weapon Prof: Elven Coutblade
3- Power Attack
4- Improved Crit(Courtblade)
5- Weapon Focus (obviously I'm very open to replacing this)
6- Practiced Spellcaster
9- Extra Turning
12- DMM(persistent)
15- Extra Rage
17- Turn Undead (Warrior Optional Class Feature)
18- Reckless Rage
19- Endurance
Floating Feat- ???

And before anyone questions legality of any of the above- I'm usually the one DMing this group, so I can persuade them to let me do all this.

HrznWlkr is there for the Desert Mastery, so I don't get fatigued after my rages. I rolled great stats- high Str and Con, and great starting cash, so I have Courtblade from lvl1.

The build is admittedly fairly weak until lvl12, but that's when I'd DMM(persist) Find the Gap, and then full P.Attack. By lvl 20 the full-attack damage average is over 370.

I know that a CoDzilla is better at melee than anything like this, etc, etc. That being said, do you see any improvements to the build without altering it radically?

T.G. Oskar
2010-03-11, 11:40 PM
Admittedly, this is more of a good melee build with a bit of casting than a pure gish. But here's the idea: Use Chameleon to get Turn Undead, Rage, and the +6 to a stat. Then use Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) with Find the Gap, Lion's Charge, and of course Divine Power. Meaning I'm attacking with a full BAB against Touch AC and full attack when I charge. It takes a lot of "Extra Turning," but I like the results a lot.

The actual build:
Human Paragon 3/Warrior(UA version) 6/Chameleon 10/Horizon Walker 1
(Technically HP3/War2/Cham10/War4/HW1, to put it in order...)

Feats:
1- Able Learner
1- ((Homebrew 1st lvl only flavor feat. Don't worry about it.))
2- Weapon Prof: Elven Coutblade
3- Power Attack
4- Improved Crit(Courtblade)
5- Weapon Focus (obviously I'm very open to replacing this)
6- Practiced Spellcaster
9- Extra Turning
12- DMM(persistent)
15- Extra Rage
17- Turn Undead (Warrior Optional Class Feature)
18- Reckless Rage
19- Endurance
Floating Feat- ???

And before anyone questions legality of any of the above- I'm usually the one DMing this group, so I can persuade them to let me do all this.

HrznWlkr is there for the Desert Mastery, so I don't get fatigued after my rages. I rolled great stats- high Str and Con, and great starting cash, so I have Courtblade from lvl1.

The build is admittedly fairly weak until lvl12, but that's when I'd DMM(persist) Find the Gap, and then full P.Attack. By lvl 20 the full-attack damage average is over 370.

I know that a CoDzilla is better at melee than anything like this, etc, etc. That being said, do you see any improvements to the build without altering it radically?

It's...a bit convoluted, considering you're using the generic classes and counting the use of Turn Undead from the Chameleon as if it were a real use of Turn Undead, something I'm not familiar if it's actually legal for purposes of Chameleon.

First, Imp. Critical should get out. Keen tends to be a tad better than Imp. Critical, since it's a +1 bonus instead of a feat which is far more important. Unless you use it as the floating feat, or get it through Heroics, having Imp. Critical tends not to be a good idea for your static feat choices.

If you're allowed to have the Warrior generic class, I'd say get Turn Undead before you get Chameleon, and depend on that; it also requires you to be able to cast divine spells, so you can't get it without a level of Spellcaster. I'm pretty sure the Chameleon's arcane/divine focus doesn't allow you to qualify for that, though. Remember you also require having Extend Spell, so that's another feat added to the tax. Same applies for Extra Rage, since you actually don't qualify for Rage (unless, of course, they allow you to do that but...)

Recall that Find the Gap causes you to treat your first melee or ranged attack in the round as a touch attack, not the rest.

Since you're allowing yourself a lot of stuff (which I find weird how your people will approve of that), you might "allow" yourself a Ribbon Elven Courtblade and add a x4 to critical damage, non-magical, as well as the increased threat range. Given you have greater Strength than Dexterity, might as well also consider getting a Jovar (Planar Handbook, IIRC) which deals just as much damage as a Greatsword but with increased threat range. Might need some clearance on that one, tho.

I think the biggest trifle is how you're depending on shaky interpretations and "I'm the DM so they'll allow me to do that", since you can do something perhaps much better going full Cleric (or full Spellcaster if you want the generic option) instead of going through so many hurdles to get essentially the same thing. Better yet, Archivist.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-12, 12:22 AM
Chameleon is very limited in Turn Undead. It doesn't actually get uses of the ability, instead, it gets times per day it can activate special abilities, one of which is Turn undead.

This is important because you only have it at the instant you're using it, and even then, only one use.

You're better finding a more conventional way to get turning.

That said, it's a really interesting build. You can get some real stat pumps, and Divine Chameleons can be really nice. Remember the Adept list, which gives you access to many spells that are normally arcane only (scorching ray FTW).

Yorrin
2010-03-12, 12:38 AM
Questionable methods of Turn Undead aside, I agree that Imp. Crit should go. I replaced it and Weapon Focus with metamagic feats. I don't want to grab a level of divine caster pre-chameleon because that's yet another spell list I'd need to keep up with, and I don't want that headache. Jovar is nice, but slightly out of my low-level budget.

I HAD forgotten that Find the Gap was only the fist attack each round, though. I'd prolly be better off just grabbing enough levels of Archivist to grab Wraith Strike and Divine Power, but then I give up the rage and +6 to a stat from Chameleon.

Unless I pulled a
Human Paragon 3/Archivist 5/Warrior 2/Chameleon 10

or something like that. And went with Combat Focus and... Divine Focus for double divine spellcasting? There's a lot going on there, but everything is much more "legit," as long as I stay away from Rage shenanigans.

Where is Adept again?

T.G. Oskar
2010-03-12, 12:40 AM
Hmm...just as a thought...

Spellcaster 1 (choose arcane or divine)/Human Paragon 3/Warrior 2/Chameleon 10/Warrior X/Horizon Walker 1?

You get a bit more of spellcasting, but you get Turn Undead from the beginning; since you'll already be getting Divine Power, that means you can essentially dip in several classes and won't lose PrC (maybe gain saving throws and whatnot). Since you can mix and match with the Spellcaster level (even if it's only 0-level and 1st level spells, and even then only up to 3rd level), you can get a few special utility spells out of it from either cleric, druid, or sorc/wiz and save slots for the Chameleon spells. You can take, for example, spells like Enlarge Person or Expeditious Retreat, which last for about a minute/CL, and use them in a dire situation. You can also count as having 1st level spells from either arcane or divine (your choice) to qualify for PrCs, which may aid a bit; PrCs with easy access and low requirements such as Ruathar may not grant you as many bonus feats, but they may grant you further spells for that dabble in Spellcaster.

Still, the idea is to get Turn Undead, which is the "holy grail" in this case; that allows you to get it at 1st level. The spells are just...icing on the cake?

P.S.: Adept is on the DMG as part of the NPC classes. You can see it here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm), tho.

Yorrin
2010-03-12, 12:53 AM
I think I've got it.

Spellcaster (generic, divine) 6/Human Paragon3/Chameleon 10/X 1

It's oddly simple, for something I build, but I get the spells I need from Spellcaster, as well as the Turn Undead, and the features I like from Chameleon, and some wiggle room at upper levels (prolly Warrior, Horizon Walker, or more levels of Spellcaster).

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-12, 01:19 AM
Yeah, Adept is DMG (NPC class), as was previously mentioned. They're the simpler shaman types, but they fit really well to give your divine side a bit of arcane.

Yorrin
2010-03-12, 01:25 AM
Generic Spellcaster kinda obviates the need for use of the Adept spell list, though for my original idea it was good.

For the record, taking out all the rage feats makes room for Travel Devotion, to get even more mileage out of my Turning.