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View Full Version : Willpower is my wizard's lowest save



taltamir
2010-03-12, 12:37 AM
I noticed something funny when playing a wizard with an even minimal amount of optimization (loremaster because of being core only) I ended up with will being my lowest save.
Why you ask?

Items (thanks to crafting):
+5 cloak of resistance
+6 gloves of dex
+6 amulent of con
+6 headband of int

Stats:
STR: 8/-1
DEX: 16/+3 [22/+6] (+6 Enchantment: Gloves of Dex)
CON: 12/+1 [18/+4] (+6 Enchantment: Amulet of Health)
INT: 21/+5 [27/+8] (+3 Levelup, +6 Enchantment: Headband of Int)
WIS: 8/-1
CHA: 8/-1

Loremaster secrets: +2 fort, +2 ref.

Fort Save: 14 (3 class, 4 con, 2 secret, 5 magic cloak)
Ref Save: 16 (3 class, 6 dex, 2 secret, 5 magic cloak)
Will Save: 13 (9 class, -1 wis, 5 magic cloak)

End result is 16 ref, 14 con, and 13 will.
Even without secret will isn't the best... and actually, I have too much dex and too little con, in a normal game I would have swapped them, but this character was meant to be a duplicate of WOTC playtesting (its an evoker wizard, with no more then 12 starting con).

I just thought this was an interesting thing to have occurred.

Temotei
2010-03-12, 12:45 AM
WOTC playtesting

Hehehe...:smalltongue:

You're funny.

Draz74
2010-03-12, 12:47 AM
A level or two in Archmage might change things.

taltamir
2010-03-12, 12:48 AM
Hehehe...:smalltongue:

You're funny.

feel free to observe:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133816

Jack Zander
2010-03-12, 12:50 AM
I don;t think that's really unusual. All of my wizards dump Charisma first, then wisdom. It's not an ability that's needed for the class, and their will saves are already progressing faster than the other two. The three usually end up at about the same, no matter what level I am.

taltamir
2010-03-12, 12:53 AM
I don;t think that's really unusual. All of my wizards dump Charisma first, then wisdom. It's not an ability that's needed for the class, and their will saves are already progressing faster than the other two. The three usually end up at about the same, no matter what level I am.

its a shame wizards can't get int to will...

Draz74
2010-03-12, 01:04 AM
its a shame wizards can't get int to will...

They can, if Oriental Adventures happens to be an allowed source.

taltamir
2010-03-12, 01:08 AM
They can, if Oriental Adventures happens to be an allowed source.

isn't that a heritage feat (take at level 1 only) with some weird requirements though?

mikej
2010-03-12, 01:10 AM
Mind Blank, much?

How much do you suspect this being an issue. From what I experienced in D&D, most DM's ( at least mine ) target melee characters with mind-effecting will saves.

Kylarra
2010-03-12, 01:22 AM
I'm not sure what this was meant to prove TBH. "Even though I have two good will save classes, the fact that I crafted myself stat boost items that give +3 to the other saves, took two secrets to get +2 to them and started with +2 and +4 higher base stats means that my will save is my lowest"

taltamir
2010-03-12, 01:22 AM
Mind Blank, much?

How much do you suspect this being an issue. From what I experienced in D&D, most DM's ( at least mine ) target melee characters with mind-effecting will saves.

part of the reason I don't even bother increasing my will save with the wizard is that I know nobody will target it :)... they expect me to have bad reflex and fort, they will be surprised.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-12, 01:27 AM
I'm not sure what this was meant to prove TBH. "Even though I have two good will save classes, the fact that I crafted myself stat boost items that give +3 to the other saves, took two secrets to get +2 to them and started with +2 and +4 higher base stats means that my will save is my lowest"

It's not meant to prove anything, I think.

I think it was just an observation on how a nonimportance of wisdom, combined with an active attempt to mitigate weak saves, can actually come full circle.

Draz74
2010-03-12, 01:28 AM
isn't that a heritage feat (take at level 1 only) with some weird requirements though?

Probably. It's a "Clan Feat." I don't have OA myself, so I don't know exactly what the rules around Clan Feats are.

taltamir
2010-03-12, 01:32 AM
I'm not sure what this was meant to prove TBH. "Even though I have two good will save classes, the fact that I crafted myself stat boost items that give +3 to the other saves, took two secrets to get +2 to them and started with +2 and +4 higher base stats means that my will save is my lowest"

It's not meant to prove anything, I think.

I think it was just an observation on how a nonimportance of wisdom, combined with an active attempt to mitigate weak saves, can actually come full circle.

yes and no...
If you ignore the secrets and have a more typical 14 dex 14 con starting stats instead of 16/12, you end up with all three saves being identical.
I would say the dumping wis is normal for wizards. And boosting con and dex is NOT done for the saves, Con is for the HP (although fort is nice too). Dex is for the AC (particularly vs ranged touch attacks) and my own ranged touch attacks.
I find that survivability vs other wizards it really helps to dodge their spells or soak up their DD. (especially when you are not high enough level to afford all day spell based immunity defenses)
I also have to choose between amulet of wisdom and amulent of con... con is a better choice for anyone BUT a wisdom caster.

I think most standard wizards will have similar results.

Kylarra
2010-03-12, 01:36 AM
It's not meant to prove anything, I think.

I think it was just an observation on how a nonimportance of wisdom, combined with an active attempt to mitigate weak saves, can actually come full circle.I guess. It seems rather logical to me that if you completely ignore one save, logically it will end up the lowest simply because you can easily stack far more modifiers than the slow base save progression.

Runestar
2010-03-12, 01:37 AM
part of the reason I don't even bother increasing my will save with the wizard is that I know nobody will target it :)... they expect me to have bad reflex and fort, they will be surprised.

IF the DM didn't know what your stats were.

But in practice, the DM will have perfect knowledge of the party's stats, strengths and weaknesses. So I wouldn't really be surprised if he decided to metagame once in a while...

taltamir
2010-03-12, 01:40 AM
I guess. It seems rather logical to me that if you completely ignore one save, logically it will end up the lowest simply because you can easily stack far more modifiers than the slow base save progression.

I didn't competely ignore it... I could have had a ring of +fort and boots of +ref for less money then my +all saves items.

IF the DM didn't know what your stats were.

But in practice, the DM will have perfect knowledge of the party's stats, strengths and weaknesses. So I wouldn't really be surprised if he decided to metagame once in a while...

1. Assuming the DM remembers.
2. its still very high for my level. what with the +5 to all saves item.

Kylarra
2010-03-12, 01:44 AM
I didn't competely ignore it... I could have had a ring of +fort and boots of +ref for less money then my +all saves items.
I'll amend to 'without specifically boosting it' then, as you have miscellaneous +5 bonuses to the other two saves, not counting the increased base stats.

Nate the Snake
2010-03-12, 01:47 AM
Probably. It's a "Clan Feat." I don't have OA myself, so I don't know exactly what the rules around Clan Feats are.

Ancestor feats are first level only, you can only have one, and humans have to use their bonus feat to take one.

Incidentally, the feat in question, Keen Intellect, doesn't give you Int to Will according to Oriental Adventures (it gives +1 to Int checks and Knowledge, Search, and Scry/Spellcraft skill checks instead). However, this (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Keen_Intellect) says it does. :smallconfused:

taltamir
2010-03-12, 01:51 AM
Ancestor feats are first level only, you can only have one, and humans have to use their bonus feat to take one.

Incidentally, the feat in question, Keen Intellect, doesn't give you Int to Will according to Oriental Adventures (it gives +1 to Int checks and Knowledge, Search, and Scry/Spellcraft skill checks instead). However, this (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Keen_Intellect) says it does. :smallconfused:

ah yes... that was the problem I had with it... I actually found it in crystal keep database as int to will. but when I looked it up I saw it does NOT actually give you int to will. someone made the mistake that it does and it has been reprinted all over the internet. but if you check the source you find it doesn't actually.

ericgrau
2010-03-12, 01:53 AM
this character was meant to be a duplicate of WOTC playtesting (its an evoker wizard, with no more then 12 starting con).

Right... because wotc always talks about how they playtested with evokers. No, wait, soon after the release of 3.0 and 3.5 they had about 7 dozen guides telling you other unusual things to do including unusual spells and special attacks, invented the "batman" wizard in them and then logicninja stole it a couple years or so later right down to the poorly copied examples. The DMG says sleep is perhaps the best 1st level spell. Though that may be carryover text from 3e when it was even more uber before it got nerfed... b/c wotc never pays attention to these spells right? Then wotc continued the controller archetype right through to 4e, giving the striker role to other classes.

Back on topic, I had a sorcerer with will as his low save for similar reasons. Two things to remember:
1. Allips will end you. Buy scrolls of lesser restoration for your party divine casters to find on your person. At your level it wouldn't hurt to grab the +2 wisdom ioun stone for 8,000 gp.
2. Be sure to be familiar with all will affecting effects both to provide defenses and to make sure the rules aren't misinterpreted horribly against you.

Sliver
2010-03-12, 02:04 AM
I also have to choose between amulet of wisdom and amulent of con... con is a better choice for anyone BUT a wisdom caster.

Unless you have enough Wis to cast your 9th level spells and you are more of a buffer or a CoDzilla then anything else.. Sometimes you just don't care..

taltamir
2010-03-12, 02:06 AM
Unless you have enough Wis to cast your 9th level spells and you are more of a buffer or a CoDzilla then anything else.. Sometimes you just don't care..

True, this supports my point though. I didn't wanna say it because then I'd get into an argument with people who say you must always always always max out your primary casting stat.

taltamir
2010-03-12, 02:10 AM
Back on topic, I had a sorcerer with will as his low save for similar reasons. Two things to remember:
1. Allips will end you. Buy scrolls of lesser restoration for your party divine casters to find on your person. At your level it wouldn't hurt to grab the +2 wisdom ioun stone for 8,000 gp.
2. Be sure to be familiar with all will affecting effects both to provide defenses and to make sure the rules aren't misinterpreted horribly against you.

what is an allip?

Since I used crafting to get 200k items on a budget of 110k GP, I doubt anyone but the cleric (who did the same!) has better will save then me.

{table]character|fort|ref|will|total
wizard (me)|14|16|13|43
fighter|18|9|8|35
cleric|15|9|19|43
rogue|8|17|5|30
[/table]

ericgrau
2010-03-12, 02:12 AM
They are the incorporeal spirit that is notoriously under CR'ed when in groups, due to their wisdom draining attack: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/allip.htm

Hence the scrolls of lesser restoration you kindly donate to the party cleric. For that matter if your group uses psions you're open to an ego whip, or w/e other creatures have ability drain. A couple ioun stones will give you a +2 without taking item slots, which is affordable enough and better than nothing.

tyckspoon
2010-03-12, 02:21 AM
Since I used crafting to get 200k items on a budget of 110k GP, I doubt anyone but the cleric (who did the same!) has better will save then me.


Speaking of crafting- even if you're not using the MIC rules for stacking basic properties it would still only cost 3k (crafted cost- market is 6k) to add +2 Wisdom to your amulet or your headband, which would even up your Will save with your Fort.

taltamir
2010-03-12, 02:22 AM
Speaking of crafting- even if you're not using the MIC rules for stacking basic properties it would still only cost 3k (crafted cost- market is 6k) to add +2 Wisdom to your amulet or your headband, which would even up your Will save with your Fort.

is this considered a "core only" rule? if so I would definitely do it. But I thought such stacking was not considered core (which we are limited to in that game).

tyckspoon
2010-03-12, 02:35 AM
Adding New Abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#addingNewAbilities)

The change made in the MIC was to remove the additional cost for adding very basic properties like AC, save, and stat bonuses, so you didn't have to deal with the "do I want Wisdom or Con? Save bonus or Charisma?" questions (because it turned out that everybody needed all of that for basic functioning.) The core rules allow for combining items, you just pay more to do it.

taltamir
2010-03-12, 02:40 AM
sweet. I am currently broke, but next chance I get I will do that.. also eventually I will get the +2 willpower secret as well. So my will should catch up eventually.

Eldariel
2010-03-12, 04:58 AM
Right... because wotc always talks about how they playtested with evokers. No, wait, soon after the release of 3.0 and 3.5 they had about 7 dozen guides telling you other unusual things to do including unusual spells and special attacks, invented the "batman" wizard in them and then logicninja stole it a couple years or so later right down to the poorly copied examples. The DMG says sleep is perhaps the best 1st level spell. Though that may be carryover text from 3e when it was even more uber before it got nerfed... b/c wotc never pays attention to these spells right? Then wotc continued the controller archetype right through to 4e, giving the striker role to other classes.

Controller-archetype was actually something learned over 3.X.

Sleep was considered the best 1st level spell from the very beginning; but that's 'cause it was that way already in 2e AD&D. However, the mindset used in said testing involved using spells as they worked in AD&D; casting Fireballs and Cones of Cold aplenty come midlevels under the assumptions that SoX-spells would fail.

Saph
2010-03-12, 05:10 AM
*nod* It's actually typical for Wizards and Sorcerers to have only an average Will save. This is why Feeblemind is such a good anti-arcane-caster spell. Combined with the -4 penalty, it gives you very good odds of knocking them out of the fight.

taltamir
2010-03-12, 05:59 AM
*nod* It's actually typical for Wizards and Sorcerers to have only an average Will save. This is why Feeblemind is such a good anti-arcane-caster spell. Combined with the -4 penalty, it gives you very good odds of knocking them out of the fight.

feeblemind is an evil spell (I don't mean by RAW, I mean I hate it), and a fate worse then death...
however, there is an interesting trick about it.
int is NOT linear. An int 3 person is really stupid, but still has "humanlike intelligence" and is a legitimate character. While int 1 and 2 is animal like intelligence and you become an NPC if your int drops that low by RAW.

Becoming feebleminded while wearing a headband of int (any, even the basic +2), will thus allow you to continue to control your character. Heck, if you invested in UMD and have the right scroll, you can even cast it :P

question: what happens if you are hit by feeblemind while under the effect of protection from evil?
Protection spells do protect from comulsion effects, and feeblemind is a compulsion. But they say that they allow the spell to take hold normally while "supressing" it. And feeblemind is instantanous...

Saph
2010-03-12, 06:03 AM
Becoming feebleminded while wearing a headband of int (any, even the basic +2), will thus allow you to continue to control your character. Heck, if you invested in UMD and have the right scroll, you can even cast it :P

Unfortunately, I don't think that would get around the other restrictions that the spell sticks on you. :P Besides, trying to UMD a scroll with a Cha of 1 might be a bit irritating . . .

taltamir
2010-03-12, 06:06 AM
Unfortunately, I don't think that would get around the other restrictions that the spell sticks on you. :P Besides, trying to UMD a scroll with a Cha of 1 might be a bit irritating . . .

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/feeblemind.htm

If the target creature fails a Will saving throw, its Intelligence and Charisma scores each drop to 1. The affected creature is unable to use Intelligence- or Charisma-based skills, cast spells, understand language, or communicate coherently. Still, it knows who its friends are and can follow them and even protect them. The subject remains in this state until a heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish spell is used to cancel the effect of the feeblemind. A creature that can cast arcane spells, such as a sorcerer or a wizard, takes a -4 penalty on its saving throw.
By other restrictions you mean the part about unable to use language or spells? because those are merely results of having an int 1 and cha 1 by the rules anyways. I would say that if your int or cha is magically raised enough, then those restrictions no longer apply.

Question: how do you protect yourself from feeblemind?

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-12, 06:58 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/feeblemind.htm

By other restrictions you mean the part about unable to use language or spells? because those are merely results of having an int 1 and cha 1 by the rules anyways. I would say that if your int or cha is magically raised enough, then those restrictions no longer apply.


What is the argument for this?

Ryumaru
2010-03-12, 01:32 PM
Admittedly, I'm not quite understanding the point of this thread.

So, is this a complaint that someone who dumps their Wisdom to below that of your standard Commoner (you have less mental stamina than someone who sifts through swamps for iron during the day) has crap Willpower compared to the Cleric who jacks his Wisdom through the roof?

This isn't a design flaw; this is just how it works. Just like being a Fighter means you have a better Fortitude than most people, but that means jack if you're going to sink your Constitution to the point that the common cold would put you out of action for a week (Constition 6-8)

2xMachina
2010-03-12, 02:11 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/feeblemind.htm

By other restrictions you mean the part about unable to use language or spells? because those are merely results of having an int 1 and cha 1 by the rules anyways. I would say that if your int or cha is magically raised enough, then those restrictions no longer apply.

Question: how do you protect yourself from feeblemind?

Would it matter? Still under Feeblemind, so you're stuck at 1 till it wears off, right?

RelentlessImp
2010-03-12, 02:15 PM
Ancestor feats are first level only, you can only have one, and humans have to use their bonus feat to take one.

Incidentally, the feat in question, Keen Intellect, doesn't give you Int to Will according to Oriental Adventures (it gives +1 to Int checks and Knowledge, Search, and Scry/Spellcraft skill checks instead). However, this (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Keen_Intellect) says it does. :smallconfused:

Dragon #318 has the "official" update to Oriental Adventures, and has the descriptive text on the RealmsHelps page (incidentally, page 38). However, getting a DM to accept Dragon Mag material is a crapshoot at best. Still, INT to will saves is nice.

ericgrau
2010-03-12, 03:18 PM
Controller-archetype was actually something learned over 3.X.

Sleep was considered the best 1st level spell from the very beginning; but that's 'cause it was that way already in 2e AD&D. However, the mindset used in said testing involved using spells as they worked in AD&D; casting Fireballs and Cones of Cold aplenty come midlevels under the assumptions that SoX-spells would fail.

It's not just sleep, check out the early strategy guides and rules explanations some time, a couple years after the release of the core books and one of the earliest on the list of articles. Even if they didn't expect that to be the wizard's main role, they sure did expect it to be on his repertoire. Check out the controlling the battlefield series under tactics and tips. There are also some other guides on special attacks like tripping. Somewhere in one of the guides is the famous haste vs. fireball example, which logicninja copied and butchered a couple years later. FWIW web is another control spell famous since 2e.



question: what happens if you are hit by feeblemind while under the effect of protection from evil?
Protection spells do protect from comulsion effects, and feeblemind is a compulsion. But they say that they allow the spell to take hold normally while "supressing" it. And feeblemind is instantanous...
Protection from evil only protects you from charms and compulsions that grant the caster continuous control or influence. Unfortunately many enchantments do not fall under this category. Charm, dominate and suggestion come to mind, but confuse and feeblemind are out. As for it being "evil", that's the point. Wizards are meant to be strong when prepared, and screwed when not. There are 5 dozen magical and non-magical caster counters, and being "nice" about them only makes casters that much more powerful.

Eldariel
2010-03-12, 04:18 PM
It's not just sleep, check out the early strategy guides and rules explanations some time, a couple years after the release of the core books and one of the earliest on the list of articles. Even if they didn't expect that to be the wizard's main role, they sure did expect it to be on his repertoire. Check out the controlling the battlefield series under tactics and tips. There are also some other guides on special attacks like tripping. Somewhere in one of the guides is the famous haste vs. fireball example, which logicninja copied and butchered a couple years later. FWIW web is another control spell famous since 2e.

Yeah, I know. Point being, it mentions them as options in the mid-levels, rather than focal strategy. Hell, the whole guide is meant to bring light to the (presumably) less used, potent spells in the game.

oint being, WoTC playtesting may have involved using said spells, but it focused on using strategies you know on AD&D (many of which are actually congruent with what you can read in the guide; just, the "Fireball can end encounters"-paradigm is what changed).

JeenLeen
2010-03-12, 04:28 PM
OT: I always try to maximize Fort and Will (since those are usually the save-or-dies), so my spellcasters wind up with Reflex being the lowest save. It is humorous that one's good save is the lowest, though.


Becoming feebleminded while wearing a headband of int (any, even the basic +2), will thus allow you to continue to control your character. Heck, if you invested in UMD and have the right scroll, you can even cast it :P



The reasoning being that your stat goes down to 1, but then the +2 brings you up to 3. Is this the case, or it is your total Int attribute (including modifiers from magical items) that is lowered to 1, and thus the headband doesn't matter?

ericgrau
2010-03-12, 05:39 PM
Yeah, I know. Point being, it mentions them as options in the mid-levels, rather than focal strategy. Hell, the whole guide is meant to bring light to the (presumably) less used, potent spells in the game.

oint being, WoTC playtesting may have involved using said spells, but it focused on using strategies you know on AD&D (many of which are actually congruent with what you can read in the guide; just, the "Fireball can end encounters"-paradigm is what changed).

Eh I never saw any fireball or damage strategy guides, but battlefield control was an 8 part series that started almost at the beginning of the guides. And they included detailed tips like using wall spells to divide enemies. Closest thing to maybe suggest the power of a fireball was the "haste can sometimes be better than fireball" in the overcoming SR guide... only b/c it used fireball as a benchmark everybody knows about.

As for defending against feeblemind, try a mindblank or similar special ability.

taltamir
2010-03-12, 08:13 PM
The reasoning being that your stat goes down to 1, but then the +2 brings you up to 3. Is this the case, or it is your total Int attribute (including modifiers from magical items) that is lowered to 1, and thus the headband doesn't matter?

Exactly, your int goes to 1, the +2 brings it back up. the +2 isn't part of your int, wearing it will not make you have a -1 int (for a total of 1 with the +2 enchantment).



because those are merely results of having an int 1 and cha 1 by the rules anyways
What is the argument for this?
Every now and then this comes up, and every time it takes forever until someone can point out the right spot for it :P.
I remember there is something about it, but that its hard to find.

A quick search through the SRD yielded three promising results.
the SRD says this about int:

An animal has an Intelligence score of 1 or 2. A creature of humanlike intelligence has a score of at least 3.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/thebasics.htm

and the monster entry says the following:

Intelligence
A creature can speak all the languages mentioned in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence bonus. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise).
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm

and the races entry says:

Race And Languages
All characters know how to speak Common. A dwarf, elf, gnome, half-elf, half-orc, or halfling also speaks a racial language, as appropriate. A character who has an Intelligence bonus at 1st level speaks other languages as well, one extra language per point of Intelligence bonus as a starting character.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm

animal entry:

Animal Type
An animal is a living, nonhuman creature, usually a vertebrate with no magical abilities and no innate capacity for language or culture.

*Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).
*Low-light vision.
*Alignment: Always neutral.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typessubtypes.htm

Also, not in the SRD but in the PHB page 9 lists a variety of creatures at various int points.

ok, lets dissect some of what I posted in relation to the spell.
with feeblemind "The affected creature is unable to":
1. use Intelligence- or Charisma-based skills
2. cast spells
3. understand language
4. or communicate coherently

You are reduced to animal level intelligence. You cannot do the 4 above mentioned things because:
1. An animal cannot comprehend language or culture
2. no magical abilities. (so you can't cast SLAs or wisdom based spells either)
3. An animal cannot comprehend language or culture
4. An animal cannot comprehend language or culture

it stands to reason that if magic can increase your intelligence beyond that of an animal, you will not longer be limited as an animal (the spell is still pretty crippling). This is merely a temporary reprieve from the spell using another spell, rather then outright undoing the spell.