Really Weak characters

[Macrovore]

I was thinking on what characters would be the weakest. And I had an idea. What if there was a character that started out without any ability bonuses? What class would he be? Could he be any good at anything?

So, challenge. Given the following ability scores: 6, 6, 7, 7, 6, 7 (i didn't want 3 6s in a row), make as good a character as you can, at levels 1, 10, and 20. All legit 3.5 sources are allowed, and be as cheesy as you want. You may not purchase ability up items, nor do you get bonus ability score points for leveling up. Human race only.

aaaand, Go!

[Frosty]

Druid is pretty standard. Take Vow of Poverty, that way eventually you can cast SOME spells. Also Wildshape will replace those bad, bad stats.

[Zaq]

Warlock. You can eventually make those touch attacks from BAB alone, you can take invocations that don't require saves, and your casting ability is not limited by your stats. You even get enough defensive options that the -2 CON is only a huge liability rather than an inescapable death sentence.

[Draz74]

Druid Wildshape Variant Ranger is pretty standard.

Fixed that for you. (Admittedly, at low levels Druid will be better due to Animal Companion.)

[The Shadowmind]

Warlock, Binder, and any other stat independent caster, or any class that has synergy in ride and handle animal.

[Cisturn]

monk, yeah you'd die but c'mon it's not like it would be any different

[taltamir]

Warlock. You can eventually make those touch attacks from BAB alone, you can take invocations that don't require saves, and your casting ability is not limited by your stats. You even get enough defensive options that the -2 CON is only a huge liability rather than an inescapable death sentence.

damn, you beat me...
yes, warlock is not only a very fun class, its one that doesn't need any stats whatsoever.
your save DCs are Dependant on your cha, but none of the good warlock abilities even allow saves...

[DragoonWraith]

So, challenge. Given the following ability scores: 6, 6, 7, 7, 6, 7 (i didn't want 3 6s in a row), make as good a character as you can, at levels 1, 10, and 20. All legit 3.5 sources are allowed, and be as cheesy as you want. You may not purchase ability up items, nor do you get bonus ability score points for leveling up. Human race only.
If there's really no limit on cheese, I'm pretty sure Pun-Pun can be done despite these rules. Human means you need some way of shapechanging into a reptilian creature, but other than that...

[JaronK]

Gonna have to go with Wildshape Ranger/Master of Many Forms. Who cares about stats anyway? Without items, VoP all the way. Yehaw.

JaronK

[taltamir]

what about swordsage?

or a wizard...
wait, hear me out. start with 7 in int. Take a race that gives +2 int for a total of 9. put your first feat in collegiate naturally.
You can't cast spells in level 1, but thats ok, they suck at this level anyways... just use a crossbow. if playing an elf flavor, make it a longbow.
{table]Level|Base Int
1|9
4|10
8|11
12|12
16|13
20|14[/table]

Just use your WBL to buy a +max int item at every point in your career. and later on, wishes to increase int.
level 20 you will have 14 +5 inherant +6 headband.

If anyone is willing to DM, I will gladly play this character :)

edit:

You may not purchase ability up items, nor do you get bonus ability score points for leveling up. Human race only.
Ouch, this completely screwed up that plan.
I will be a warlock then... touch attack with decent damage at least every round. level 1 I get spiderclimb. level 6 I get flight. nice abilities and powers and all day at will magic that requires no stats at all whatsoever... and touch attack means I still hit very well.

[tyckspoon]

Weird option: Truenamer. You will require some cheese to make up for your lack of Int bonus, but other than that your abilities are utterly divorced from your ability scores. Leverage all the power of Truenaming* with an idiot-savant!


*Power not guaranteed.

[Runestar]

Swordsage actually has a fair amount of MAD to it.

Is there some way to abuse reincarnate or something? :smalltongue:

[Macrovore]

Sorry, no VoP either, and humans only. The point was to do it without ability bonuses whatsoever, not try to get bonuses from penalties.

But druid is a fair idea. Or wildshape ranger. just trade your crappy scores for animals that have nice ones. But it's kind of avoiding the problem... Which, I suppose, is in fact a solution.
And warlock. I like it. you can do a ton of stuff with warlock that give you defenses and attacks without allowing saves, and it doesn't say you need a specific CHA score to cast invocations (unless it does. Can we get a rules check on that? because the invocations have spell level equivalents).

[Ashiel]

Handle Animal. Lots of it. Take a few weeks off at a time to train 20gp bulls (uses bison stats, trade good) and similar creatures to kill things for you. Ride when possible. Wear the heaviest armors you can when not in an aquatic or mountainous environment, carry a heavy shield or tower shield. Use little more than move actions to command your animals and standard actions for total defense.

Since you're not going to be attacking or casting spells anyway the penalties for any non-proficiencies with your armor won't bother you much; but the extra protection could help you survive those low-levels with your sickly 7 con.

For class, I'd say Druid since it comes with Handle Animal, as well as an extra animal companion. As one of your first feats, pick up Wild Cohort to snag an additional riding dog. Pickup Craft (Armor) with your human bonus skill points and make their barding yourself. You should be able to get about 3-5 solid animals who are more dangerous than optimized 1st level fighters (or 3rd level fighters in the case of the bulls). Animal Cohort and Wild Cohort provide "renewable" resources, since you get another one in a week if they croak.

Furthermore you will eventually get Wild Shape which will allow you to be the pack-leader. You will gain access to spells from spell-trigger items like wands and staffs (which you can use despite being unable to cast yourself) which can allow you to heal and provide party support when not wild-shaped. You will also pick up a number of little bonuses like poison immunity.

Your feats don't mean much since you can't cast. You won't even want Natural Spell since your casting will rely on items, and you don't need augmented summoning. So besides Wild Cohort, your human bonus feat could be Wild Talent to make you psionic.

From there pickup the following feats: Improved Toughness, Psionic Body (+2hp/psionic feat), Speed of Thought (+10ft speed, psionic), Up the Walls (psionic), Iron Will, Great Fortitude, and Lightning Reflexes in no particular order.

For your pets, just take stuff that makes sense for them, like multi-attack, improved natural attack, Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Improved Toughness, etc.

Should prove solidly playable through levels 1-5 by my guess, and still growing in strength (slowly) at higher levels. You'll eventually want bigger animals or magical beasts with a 1-2 intelligence to train.

[taltamir]

nope, invocations do not require any stats to cast.
the save DC against an invocation is 10+its effective level+your cha mod

but there are really no invocations worth taking that even allow a save at all.
effective level matters for save DCs, and for abjuration spells (globe of invulnerability blocks spells of level 3 or lower, spell absorptions absorbs X spell levels before failing, etc).

alright, so we established you can be druid (prefereably with handle animal), and you can be a warlock... those are pretty cool... keep them coming people.
I am actually interested in making such a game. PbP always seems to fizzle out and takes too long, but how about play by audio chat (maybe some video too if you have the bandwidth, I do)... anyone else interested?
I want to play the warlock, but I have been considering entering the world of DMing and wouldn't mind being a DM instead of a player for this one. what do you think?

[JaronK]

Another fun one is to use Tainted Sorcerer, but you can't do that until you can actually get into the PrC. I'd go Archivist to get in, as you at least get decent armor and whatnot. Once you're in the class, your Taint Score maxes out at twice your wisdom score -1, so with 7 Wisdom you can have a taint of up to 13. The nice part? That's effectively a +13 stat mod for casting, or equivalent to a primary stat of 36. Nice.

So something like Binder 1/Archivist 3/Anima Mage 10/Tainted Sorcerer 1/Tenebrous Apostate 5 would get the job done, taking that TS level ASAP. Don't forget to get an item of Moment of Perfect Mind to avoid taking extra levels in the class, and use spells like Restoration to manage your taint score properly. Also, bind Naberius. Since you get endless free metamagic all day long, you can persist Divine Power, Vigorous Circle, and other useful metamagics. Also, feel free to have an army of undead.

JaronK

[taltamir]

I like it jaronk... want to play one?

also check this thread to see where you can go with your warlock:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8061854#post8061854

one of the more interesting one is from BOED69 and is called sentinal of bhaarai. its a full casting class that lets you morph into a bear of your choice at will (later on, dire form), cast two seperate lightening based spells as quickened SLA once a day each, and summon a bear calvary once a week.

[Zaq]

I like it jaronk... want to play one?

also check this thread to see where you can go with your warlock:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8061854#post8061854

one of the more interesting one is from BOED69 and is called sentinal of bhaarai. its a full casting class that lets you morph into a bear of your choice at will (later on, dire form), cast two seperate lightening based spells as quickened SLA once a day each, and summon a bear calvary once a week.

The hilarious thing about Sentinal of Bharrai (well, besides being a BEAR) is that, despite being 10/10 casting, it doesn't actually require casting to get in. There's no caster level requirement, no needed spell levels, nothing. (This makes it nice for, say, Shadowcasters, or Warlocks.) I'm not sure if there's any way to really manipulate that (it can't GRANT casting, since it does say "existing class"), but it's still weird and interesting.

[JaronK]

It's not a good idea for me to play in online games. I always forget about them and stop playing.

JaronK

[Ecalsneerg]

Why give an array that specifically has some odd numbers in it if you can't have your abilities increase as you level?

[taltamir]

Why give an array that specifically has some odd numbers in it if you can't have your abilities increase as you level?

+5 inherant bonus from wishes?

[Ecalsneerg]

Then why not allow ability-increasing items yet allow the use of wish of all things? :smallamused:

[BobVosh]

Hmm.

Duskblade/Paladin/Mystic Theurge.

That way you need a +6 item to each stat. Well, except maybe dex. Every other stat is used though :D

Anyway I would say druid, then go beastmaster. Or master of many forms.
If you do druid, 1 beastmaster, x MoMF you can take natural bond and only lose 3 levels on animal companion.

[Mongoose87]

The hilarious thing about Sentinal of Bharrai (well, besides being a BEAR) is that, despite being 10/10 casting, it doesn't actually require casting to get in. There's no caster level requirement, no needed spell levels, nothing. (This makes it nice for, say, Shadowcasters, or Warlocks.) I'm not sure if there's any way to really manipulate that (it can't GRANT casting, since it does say "existing class"), but it's still weird and interesting.

Too bad the class, which appears to be somewhat Druid-oriented, is only 1/2 BaB and d4 HD.

[Optimystik]

Seconding Binder and Warlock, though you'll have to be careful with the former - most of your pacts will be bad, and some of the influences can get you killed with that set up.

It fits mechanically too. If i was born that weak and forced to be an adventurer, I'd be turning to fiends/vestiges for help too.

How would Incarnum work with stats that poor, I wonder?

[tyckspoon]

How would Incarnum work with stats that poor, I wonder?

It doesn't, without a DM waiver. You need a positive Con modifier to shape melds at all.

[Lysander]

An obvious move is to become a necropolitan, or some other undead, so your crappy con doesn't matter. Necropolitan warlock?

[erikun]

Druid, Warlock, and I'm going to add Rogue with Use Magic Device to the list. Sneak Attack is independant of stats, and the Rogue's ability to have a handful of high-rank skills invalidates the low stat modifiers. Wildshape Ranger sounds like it would work also.

Binder apparently, although I don't have the books to be familiar with the class. Perhaps some kind of Warblade/Kensai who uses his Concentration check for attacks, damage, and saves?

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I'm pretty sure Artificer is completely stat independent for the purposes of crafting. I think he needs Int to use infusions but, that's not his main ability cheap items and UMD are and with Skill Focus UMD and Magical Aptitude at level one you've got a +7 UMD check oh plus the artificer bonus and lots of scrolls of all the best spells from druid and wizard so you have a 10 minute duration wolf polymorph and several blasts and utility spells. They have I believe medium armor and shields so even with a 6 dex you could have AC 14 so your like a lvl 1 wizard with an 18 dex who rolled a 1 for hp but you have better spells.

I'll take the trait of cautious +1 AC -1 saves vs fear.
Since no cheese is too smelly I'll take illiterate then spend 2 skill ranks to learn to read for a +1 untyped bonus to UMD

My flaws will be non combatant and feeble and for extra feats I take the reduced xp cost of crafting and the spell touched feat bladeproof skin for DR 3/bludgeoning.

So unless I made a mistake about the crafting this guy is still a functional Tier 1.

[Pluto]

Needs more Divine Minion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a).

[Zaq]

Too bad the class, which appears to be somewhat Druid-oriented, is only 1/2 BaB and d4 HD.

A Druid can ALREADY turn into a bear and call lightning and summon bears. It basically grafts Druid-style abilities onto a non-Druid. Could do worse, really.

[taltamir]

A Druid can ALREADY turn into a bear and call lightning and summon bears. It basically grafts Druid-style abilities onto a non-Druid. Could do worse, really.

its basically becoming a prestige druid... there is no point for a real druid to take that class.