PDA

View Full Version : Desert economy. Help me get the taxes rolling.



Asheram
2010-03-12, 08:26 AM
Greetings everyone.

Now, I'm recently the proud owner of a small province, as well as a keep upon the lands. Unfortunatly, I'm in a bit of a pickle here as I noticed the cost to manage this keep. Almost 700gp a month (not including the taxes I have to pay to the Sultan).

Now, the other trouble I'm in is that I don't have the revenue to keep this going for ever, and the worst part is that it's in a desert enviroment.

So, I have three alternatives:
1. Stimulate the economy.
2. Go kill a dragon every few years or so.
3. Live as a pauper in my fort.
4. Decline the position and somewhat mess up the plot of the adventure.

Now, I decide to go for option 1, but how to do it?

There are no local caravan routes that I can exploit, nor are there any real settlements. The only locals I've got are a tribe of beduins and a tribe of Tri-kreen that live on the very borders of the province.

There is a mountain range nearby which I very much hope to cointain an ore deposit, but I can't Live on that hope.

Now, I'm currently reading up on desert farming and irrigation, but I don't have an awful lot of hope to that unless I can get hold of a spell or device to make it rain.

So, I'm asking for your help. What is a poor satrap to do?

Iku Rex
2010-03-12, 08:32 AM
What level is your character? Class? What about the rest of the party?

Edit: DnD books available?

Gaiyamato
2010-03-12, 08:32 AM
What alignment are you?
Do you condone slavery?

jpreem
2010-03-12, 08:38 AM
Why on earth did someone build this keep in the middle of nowhere?
Just to exile some misfavored aristocrat or something :D, maybe you can open a desert resort - for rich nobles who enjoy vast desert landscapes and silence :D

Asheram
2010-03-12, 08:40 AM
Fortunatly I'm a druid, so I've atleast got Plantgrowth. I'm a L5 druid/2momf/2 warshaper (Bad build, I know, but I wanted it this way.)

The rest of the group is a Barbarian L9, Ninja L8, Warlock-cleric L7'ish and an Artificer L... I think it was 5 due to some LA.

I'm True neutral, but I start to lean more towards neutral good. I do Not condone slavery, I want the best for the region and the people now... preferably with me living well in the process.

Asheram
2010-03-12, 08:44 AM
Why on earth did someone build this keep in the middle of nowhere?
Just to exile some misfavored aristocrat or something :D, maybe you can open a desert resort - for rich nobles who enjoy vast desert landscapes and silence :D

Yeah.. I'm wondering the same thing...

Now, the plot is that it's a shared position, one that has the political control, and one that has control over the land.

The thing is that there's this rule that it's an inherited position (but not for long), and due to that the other people that've held the position now have been killed in 'accidents', makes me the last obstacle between Hassan (the other ruler) and him holding Both the positions.

I do wonder if there's anything special on the land, or if he's just hungry for power.

Gaiyamato
2010-03-12, 08:45 AM
Well yeah.. you could just start growing stuff. Make a bunch of grassy plains, use magic to create/divert a water source then just invite people in the develop the new land and tax them once it has all grown enough.

Magic solves everything in DnD.

If you want to make it more fun you could make some artifact or something if you have the Creat Wonderous Item feat. "The Oasis Heart" or something, that constantly casts create water to give you a water source.

I did a similar thing with a Druid/Wizard/Geomancer/AH once and used ley lines to create an artificial nexus in my area, then built a complicated series of items to permanently sustain a dense jungle. lol.

Asheram
2010-03-12, 08:47 AM
Well yeah.. you could just start growing stuff. Make a bunch of grassy plains, use magic to create/divert a water source then just invite people in the develop the new land and tax them once it has all grown enough.

Magic solves everything in DnD.

If you want to make it more fun you could make some artifact or something if you have the Creat Wonderous Item feat. "The Oasis Heart" or something, that constantly casts create water to give you a water source.

I did a similar thing with a Druid/Wizard/Geomancer/AH once and used ley lines to create an artificial nexus in my area, then built a complicated series of items to permanently sustain a dense jungle. lol.

Yeah, it's pretty much what I had in mind.

But I want to start out with what options I have in RAW and thinking outside the box before asking my DM for custom stuff.

Fishy
2010-03-12, 08:47 AM
While you're still in civilization, put the word out around town that the place is far too hostile for anyone to visit, and that the rumors of an ancient civilization blessed by the gods are completely false, that no stories of miraculous healing were ever confirmed, and that there are absolutely no secret tombs lined with solid gold.

You, my friend, are going to make a tourist trap.

Asheram
2010-03-12, 08:52 AM
While you're still in civilization, put the word out around town that the place is far too hostile for anyone to visit, and that the rumors of an ancient civilization blessed by the gods are completely false, that no stories of miraculous healing were ever confirmed, and that there are absolutely no secret tombs lined with solid gold.

You, my friend, are going to make a tourist trap.

A hero trap, you say? *chuckles* Well, towns have been built for less.
The problem is that while Hassan is still alive and at large, I'm getting this slight fear of assassins, and the thought of town full of wannabe heroes and fortune seekers makes my shoulderblades itch.

Edit: Oh, and All books are available but everything has to be approved by the DM before it's put into play.

Fishy
2010-03-12, 08:59 AM
Set up a monastery, maybe? If you can fabricate some sort of divinely-significant event, you could have a decent supply of pilgrims coming in, and you'd have a 'legitimate' reason to have a large, enclosed and secluded space which you can only enter after having ritually bathed and left your worldly goods behind.

Your pointy, stabby worldly goods.

Asheram
2010-03-12, 09:10 AM
Set up a monastery, maybe? If you can fabricate some sort of divinely-significant event, you could have a decent supply of pilgrims coming in, and you'd have a 'legitimate' reason to have a large, enclosed and secluded space which you can only enter after having ritually bathed and left your worldly goods behind.

Your pointy, stabby worldly goods.

It's an interesting idea... But I'd rather stay on the good side of the gods for a bit longer; I had to call on their divine knowlege in a trial earlier, so I sort of owe them a favor.

I might open one up in the mountains later on though, but not at this moment.

Iku Rex
2010-03-12, 09:14 AM
You could start by casting treasure scent (Drd 3, SpC) a few times. It lets you detect copper, silver, gold, platinum, and gems within 30 feet if they're close to the surface. Use a fast form to cover as much ground as possible.

If you're willing to make a large investment a decanter of endless water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#decanterofEndlessWater) (9000 gp) provides water for a lot of people and some agriculture. Probably won't be worth it though. (Ask the DM about the price of water?)

Riffington
2010-03-12, 09:14 AM
I noticed the cost to manage this keep. Almost 700gp a month

Why is it so expensive? If the locals don't have many job options, surely they'll work cheaper for the upkeep? And whatever gold you do give them, where are they spending it if not on goods whose import you control?

Fishy
2010-03-12, 09:16 AM
Fair enough: Interventionist gods make blasphemy a lot less fun anyway.

The basic principle is the same- you can only have an economy if you have something that other people want. John Adams says to make something you have into something people want, P.T. Barnum says to make people want what you have.

You have... sand.

Reynard
2010-03-12, 09:20 AM
Why is it so expensive? If the locals don't have many job options, surely they'll work cheaper for the upkeep? And whatever gold you do give them, where are they spending it if not on goods whose import you control?

My guess is either the DM is trying to be difficult, or that the price is so high because they have to import everything.

Shades of Gray
2010-03-12, 09:20 AM
Find a way to keep your goods refrigerated. Nobody likes melted ice cream. Also, consider stuff like Apple Pie that does not need to be served cold.

Oh, you mean desert economy. Nevermind.

Lysander
2010-03-12, 09:21 AM
Just buy/quest for a decanter of endless water. Keep it on geyser mode 24/7 to sustain an artificial lagoon and irrigation system. In time traders will shift their routes to take advantage of your FREE WATER, bringing business to any stores, restaurants, and inns you establish. Also offer FREE LAND to peasants that they can farm now thanks to your magical endless water, in exchange for them giving you a percentage of their crops which you can then sell.

Reynard
2010-03-12, 09:22 AM
You have... sand.

Use magic to make lots of glass?

JeenLeen
2010-03-12, 09:22 AM
Fair enough: Interventionist gods make blasphemy a lot less fun anyway.

The basic principle is the same- you can only have an economy if you have something that other people want. John Adams says to make something you have into something people want, P.T. Barnum says to make people want what you have.

You have... sand.

Sand and some sort of heat-generating spells, if not by your druid at least by the party. If any of you have craft that can work on it, superheat the sand into glass.

I don't know the cost offhand, but I imagine glass sells for a good bit in D&D economics.

edit: ninja'd

Asheram
2010-03-12, 09:27 AM
My guess is either the DM is trying to be difficult, or that the price is so high because they have to import everything.

I actually calculated it myself. A guardforce with servants as well as food is quite espensive.

Fishy
2010-03-12, 09:28 AM
Pfft, magic. You can make it the old fashioned way with a kiln, you know.

And actually, if you owe the gods a favor, setting up an actual legitimate shrine of some sorts might be a good idea, for the same reasons that a fake one would plus the possibility of divine kudos.

JeminiZero
2010-03-12, 09:39 AM
I actually calculated it myself. A guardforce with servants as well as food is quite espensive.

Well one thing to consider is to try cutting cost then. Reduce their pay, but give them access to create food/prestidigitation traps. :smalltongue:

Do any of your party membes have access to Wall of Stone (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Wall_of_stone)? That little nugget is useful of all sorts of construction possibilities.

Asheram
2010-03-12, 09:41 AM
Just buy/quest for a decanter of endless water. Keep it on geyser mode 24/7 to sustain an artificial lagoon and irrigation system. In time traders will shift their routes to take advantage of your FREE WATER, bringing business to any stores, restaurants, and inns you establish. Also offer FREE LAND to peasants that they can farm now thanks to your magical endless water, in exchange for them giving you a percentage of their crops which you can then sell.

Having a decanter of endless water on 24/7 produces... 1637.3 cubic metres of water each day... hm.. might work for a while

edit: I don't know why I didn't think of that before.

nvm. Got the math wong. Corrected.



Pfft, magic. You can make it the old fashioned way with a kiln, you know.

And actually, if you owe the gods a favor, setting up an actual legitimate shrine of some sorts might be a good idea, for the same reasons that a fake one would plus the possibility of divine kudos.

Oh, the warlock-cleric has sort of convinced me to build a small temple in our fort already, and I'll go for a monastery later on. :)

Choco
2010-03-12, 09:45 AM
Well, historically people living in harsh environments have thrived via advanced thinking and technology. Their bad circumstances lead them to think of new and creative ways to overcome said circumstances, which leads to a prosperous and technologically advanced society. Since this is D&D, just replace technology with magic and you good. Simply go around using magic to solve all your people's big problems (like the decanter of endless water example above).

Once quality of life goes up, and word of this gets out to neighboring areas, prosperity will come on it's own. And on top of that, you will gain the trust/respect/love/fanatical devotion of the vast majority of your population, and if you are careful to maintain it you could use that to your advantage against the other lord.

Lysander
2010-03-12, 09:52 AM
Also, to get an agricultural base started hire a Druid to cast Plant Growth on peasants' crops for free. If there isn't a druid in the party how about taking the leadership feat if you don't already have it (which you really should have anyway if you're running a province) and getting a druid cohort?

Asheram
2010-03-12, 10:06 AM
Also, to get an agricultural base started hire a Druid to cast Plant Growth on peasants' crops for free. If there isn't a druid in the party how about taking the leadership feat if you don't already have it (which you really should have anyway if you're running a province) and getting a druid cohort?

Already thought of, I'll be flying around in eagle form for a few days, casting said spell upon the land.

If all this succeeds, I wonder if that'll turn out to be an odd ritual in a few hundred years.

Artanis
2010-03-12, 10:07 AM
The book Dune comes to mind, not just because of the name, but also because it shows something that you could export: soldiers.

You live in a desert that (I presume) is filled with monsters and hazards. In Dune, that sort of environment created people so tough and so dangerous that they were virtually invincible on the battlefield. I imagine that there'd be quite a market for a "product" like that :smallwink: .

Ashiel
2010-03-12, 10:30 AM
I'd personally go with the decanter of endless water, like has been mentioned previously. Being a druid, plant growth will definitely help with that as well. You could create vast lands of agriculture in an otherwise barren landscape.

Since you asked for RAW options as well, here is one that I find is incredibly effective, but horribly broken and your DM may not allow it; but RAW it works fine.

If your party can cast Wall of Iron you can create CL*5ft cube of iron. A cubic foot of iron is roughly 450lbs, so each 5ft square is roughly 2,250lbs. At 11th level when you can cast 6th level spells, that equates to 24,750lbs of iron. Iron is a trade good and may be traded like gold at the rate of 1 silver piece per pound. This means at 11th level, a wizard or anyone else who can cast Wall of Iron may spend 50gp in material components to produce 2475gp worth of Iron, for a total profit of 2425 gold.

This iron can then be used to craft thousands of iron products. Weapons, armor, shovels, lanterns, and so forth. You could fund weapon and armorsmiths who lived on your land with free iron to boost your economy. They can split the difference in cost by selling goods at cheaper prices (which encourages people to trade with your people) and using the rest of the difference to pay your taxes.

If you have the Fabricate spell, it is likely that you could simply produce all the iron exports you need to fund your rulership costs, and just allow your people to live on and work the land that you have provided them in a utopian paradise.

Combined with Wall of Stone you create a landscape very quickly, as well as enhance your keep with with Iron Walls that are then covered in Stone Walls to create a doubly insulated fortress (the stone protects the iron from rust, and anyone who tries to punch through the stone will find a thick-ass wall of iron blocking their way).

Finally, if you're a druid and can understand that magic is a natural part of life and death, and you realize that negative energy is a natural part of life and unlife, then you can also have your party wizard or cleric animate mindless undead such as skeletons. Have them polished and wrapped with cloth, and maybe armor and have them function as both free labor for things like digging ditches and other untrained laborer work.

Make incentives to pursue scholarly knowledge; such as by building schools and churches where people can train to be professionals and adepts who can give back to their communities. Give them tax breaks for practicing trades of science, art, and warfare. Develop your people and make their lives great. Should anyone decide they want to capture your piece of paradise for themselves, they must now contend with a lot of very happy citizens who all happen to have at least one level in an NPC class; as well as an army of mindless undead who guard your main cities and fill the bulk of your army with able-bodied expendable warriors, led by your country's adepts using x/day wands of animate dead with 10HD built into the wand.

You might wonder where you would find undead? Well, purchase the bodies of your people. Offer incentives such as fifty gold to anyone who signs a contract to allow you to take their body for the kingdom upon their deaths, or similar methods. Also, anyone who committed heinous crimes and was sentenced to death, or died in your prisons, or with the bodies of soldiers and raiders who make the mistake of attacking you. That's one of the best part about undead - if someone tries to attack you and fails, you get to animate the bodies of your fallen plus their fallen.

Just some considerations. :smallsmile:

Mongoose87
2010-03-12, 10:47 AM
If you want a quick and dirty way to do it, place a tax on water.

WARNING: May cause rebellion.

BRC
2010-03-12, 10:51 AM
Use a permenant Wall of Fire, along with your plentiful sand, to set up a glassworks.

Tackyhillbillu
2010-03-12, 11:11 AM
There is more that is valuable in Mountains then just Precious Metals or Gems.

Keep an eye out for deposits of Marble, or stone like that. Quarrying can provide a fair income.

What are you neighbors like? Lighten taxes, and relax social restrictions, and you could start stealing the lower class residents of your neighboring provinces, swelling your own ranks.

Glass Making might be an option, though it isn't quite as simple as it seems. The process of making high quality Glass is actually very extensive.

cheezewizz2000
2010-03-12, 11:18 AM
Dig. Dig down, and dig far. Groundwater will often build up behind clay-rich fault gouges. If you can dig through the clay rich barrier, you can have an artificial aquifer that can be directed to where it's needed. Summon yourself an Earth elemental, and get it digging aquifers. Cheaper and less vulnerable to dispels than decanters, and as the water flows fairly freely, poisoning is difficult.

"But cheezewizz, there's no water in deserts"

There's loads, you just haven't dug deep* enough yet. Bare in mind that an Oasis is merely a place where groundwater reaches ground level.

Further reading:
National Geographic
(http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/resources_who.html)
BNet (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4128/is_200602/ai_n17170313/)

*By deep, I mean hundreds to thousands of feet. Not economical with man power, but when you can summon and bind things that tunnel at 30'/round, underground cities are cheaper and easier to build than overground ones.
________

Also, many modern deserts contain significant ore reserves. This is largely dependant on the palaeoenvironmental conditions rocks were deposited under (something most DMs neglect to consider), but if you can find somewhere where mudstones are sitting on top of sandstones or conglomerates, you might get lucky and find copper ores/native copper with minor silver and gold deposits at the contact. Look for dark green stains on the rock.

Sites of ancient, long extinct volcanoes are a gold mine (literally).

Lysander
2010-03-12, 11:22 AM
You'd need other materials besides sand to produce quality glass. Sand is the main ingredient, but only certain types of sand are ideally suited to glass production. You'd need other chemicals as well, like soda ash. If you really want a glass trade I'd recommend hiring craftsman and handwaving the details, as long as your DM is willing to say the necessary supplies are accessible through mining or trade.

Here's another question. Why does it cost 700gp to maintain your province? What is that for? To hire soldiers? To import food for your keep and pay the janitorial staff? Are there any civil services you're forced to maintain? If it's just an empty desert why does it cost you that much?

bosssmiley
2010-03-12, 11:30 AM
Greetings everyone.

Now, I'm recently the proud owner of a small province, as well as a keep upon the lands. Unfortunately, I'm in a bit of a pickle here as I noticed the cost to manage this keep. Almost 700gp a month (not including the taxes I have to pay to the Sultan).

Now, the other trouble I'm in is that I don't have the revenue to keep this going for ever, and the worst part is that it's in a desert enviroment.

So, I have three alternatives:
1. Stimulate the economy.
2. Go kill a dragon every few years or so.
3. Live as a pauper in my fort.
4. Decline the position and somewhat mess up the plot of the adventure.

1. Good chap.
2. You're an adventurer. Ganking dragons is the equivalent of an IPO. :smallwink:
3. Where's the fun in that?
4. Plot? smack the DM. The plot is what happens when you all game. :smallannoyed:


Now, I decide to go for option 1, but how to do it?

Surely your keep is on the way to somewhere? Use the decanter oasis trick to establish a free trade area. It doesn't have to be perfect, just less hassle than your rivals...
Bounty and security of tenure for prospectors (encourage mineral exploitation and inward movement of people).
Establish trade with the Kreen and local Bedu - what do the produce that the others want, and vice versa? You know Bedouin are famous for the quality of their horses (expensive high status goods in themselves), right?

Lysander
2010-03-12, 11:43 AM
Hah. You know what would also work? Turning your province (or at least a small area around your keep) into a lush garden as a product example of your druidic magic. Then sell your personal spellcasting services to others.

Here's your ad:

Is your province's agricultural base suffering from its dry climate? You need the power of druidic magic! Make crops grow overnight! Fertilize miles of arid terrain! I'm not just a druid, I'm also a client! Buy a Plant Growth package for a million acres of land and we'll make your camel talk for free!

Quincunx
2010-03-12, 11:45 AM
Yeah.. I'm wondering the same thing...

Now, the plot is that it's a shared position, one that has the political control, and one that has control over the land.

The thing is that there's this rule that it's an inherited position (but not for long), and due to that the other people that've held the position now have been killed in 'accidents', makes me the last obstacle between Hassan (the other ruler) and him holding Both the positions.

I do wonder if there's anything special on the land, or if he's just hungry for power.

Interesting. Will this competitor also drain any resources that you might gather, thus making you 'unable' to afford the keep? Can you pay him off in spellcasting services? Can you pay him off at all? Also, Fishy's point about pointy, stabby worldly goods and divesting visitors of them is well taken.

I'm fond of the glassworks idea, and of glass in general; someone has to be making and overpricing all those spyglasses. If you have fine sand, import and cut gems into higher-value stones. If you have wind, and you should without any natural features to block it, create a kite-and-glider industry with ornamental kite festivals, prayer flags and wheels, and limited-use tethered* gliders to loft sharp-eyed scouts aloft for battlefield intelligence.

*Technically there's no reason to tether a glider, but it may make your DM's eyes cross to grant folk non-magical flight. If it's of restricted range, effectively nothing more than up/down, it's less threatening.

Asheram
2010-03-12, 01:27 PM
Interesting. Will this competitor also drain any resources that you might gather, thus making you 'unable' to afford the keep? Can you pay him off in spellcasting services? Can you pay him off at all? Also, Fishy's point about pointy, stabby worldly goods and divesting visitors of them is well taken.

Now, this is a very political fight, which means that I know he's behind it, and he knows that I know, but also knows that I don't have any proof, and even if I did have proof, he's way more favored by the sultan than I.
So I'm afraid there's no paying him off but instead slowly making him wear down till he makes a mistake.



Hah. You know what would also work? Turning your province (or at least a small area around your keep) into a lush garden as a product example of your druidic magic. Then sell your personal spellcasting services to others.

Here's your ad:

Is your province's agricultural base suffering from its dry climate? You need the power of druidic magic! Make crops grow overnight! Fertilize miles of arid terrain! I'm not just a druid, I'm also a client! Buy a Plant Growth package for a million acres of land and we'll make your camel talk for free!

Haha. :smallbiggrin: Well... I can travel large distances in wildshape... and I do have some spare spellslots. Perhaps. :smallwink:



* Surely your keep is on the way to somewhere? Use the decanter oasis trick to establish a free trade area. It doesn't have to be perfect, just less hassle than your rivals...
* Bounty and security of tenure for prospectors (encourage mineral exploitation and inward movement of people).
* Establish trade with the Kreen and local Bedu - what do the produce that the others want, and vice versa? You know Bedouin are famous for the quality of their horses (expensive high status goods in themselves), right?


Well. I've checked and unfortunatly the keep is a bit far away from every route. Now, I'm going to commence an enormous irrigation plan with that decanter previously mentioned but the DM has confirmed (due to ideas from this very thread :P ) that it's a non-purchaseable goods and have to be quested for.

I'll probably start prospecting the mountains very heavily. We'll have a session tomorrow and I'll start rummaging around the capidal for some thrifty dwarves.

About the trade, well... they're mine to taxate, so I'm more interested in getting them to trade outward instead of inward, then I can get some nice profit tax off them.
And speaking about them, My DM has made some very Very not so subtle hints that I have to get a heir should Hassan actually manage to kill me. Now, I was first thinking of waiting a bit, but then came to think of the beduins. If I marry one of the clanleaders daughters, I 1. Get a huge political bonus, and 2. Can give them a completely ridiculus dowry in livestock, which will also make me seem like a very generous man (nevermind that they'll come back in taxes, no? :smallwink:)



Finally, if you're a druid and can understand that magic is a natural part of life and death, and you realize that negative energy is a natural part of life and unlife, then you can also have your party wizard or cleric animate mindless undead such as skeletons. Have them polished and wrapped with cloth, and maybe armor and have them function as both free labor for things like digging ditches and other untrained laborer work.


Yeeeeessssss.... thank you thank you thank you... I had completely forgotten about that alternative. I even have a cleric of Anubis in the party who can approve of the use of cadavers in this way!

Now I finally know how to start off project "massive irrigation"

And. as well, thanks for the tip about the wall of iron, but our DM frowns upon such things, and I try to keep him happy. :smallbiggrin:

Ravens_cry
2010-03-12, 01:51 PM
Many deserts are actually quite fertile, if you add water. Some decanters of endless water, some taxes for the use of this blessing, as well as taxes on the resulting crops and you got a new farming area. At the very least, you can have enough to support your own upkeep.

Ashiel
2010-03-12, 02:19 PM
Yeeeeessssss.... thank you thank you thank you... I had completely forgotten about that alternative. I even have a cleric of Anubis in the party who can approve of the use of cadavers in this way!

Now I finally know how to start off project "massive irrigation"

And. as well, thanks for the tip about the wall of iron, but our DM frowns upon such things, and I try to keep him happy. :smallbiggrin:

No problem. As I mentioned before, the Wall of Iron thing is a bit cheesy (it's effectively like pulling 2k gold out thin air) but it works, and some GMs will be lenient with it if you don't abuse it (as in, you only use it to build or fund role-playing based things and never try to get rich off of it).

As for the undead bit, it's one of my favorites. I sat and thought about it for a while and determined that if you had a good or at least mostly neutral with good tendencies wizard or cleric type to rule over an undead-friendly kingdom, you could easily make a perfect utopia. :smallsmile:

Asheram
2010-03-12, 02:29 PM
No problem. As I mentioned before, the Wall of Iron thing is a bit cheesy (it's effectively like pulling 2k gold out thin air) but it works, and some GMs will be lenient with it if you don't abuse it (as in, you only use it to build or fund role-playing based things and never try to get rich off of it).

As for the undead bit, it's one of my favorites. I sat and thought about it for a while and determined that if you had a good or at least mostly neutral with good tendencies wizard or cleric type to rule over an undead-friendly kingdom, you could easily make a perfect utopia. :smallsmile:

Very true... I've always had the belief that in order to make an utopia, you need unlimited resources and unlimited labor. Undead does fill the unskilled labor slot atleast. :)

Randel
2010-03-12, 03:00 PM
Magical/Technical solutions:

Lyre of Building - Not sure if your artificer can crate it (it requires the Fabricate spell to make but I think a lvl 7 artificer could make simulate the spell for it). 30 minutes of playing give you the equivelent of 100 men working for three days. After the first hour you need to make dc 18 perform checks. So once a week you can play this thing to get at least 6 days of 100 magical manhours played in an hour. Get a Bard or anyone with the skill points to always make the check and you can have then sing a merry tune forever and build a crazy huge city around your base. Horribly horribly broken but with this thing you could probably build a huge city and then dig wells and clean up all the sand in the area as well.

Decanter of Water - Infinite water = always a good thing.

Create Food and Water trap - Basically printing your own edible money for free forever. Really, just design the trap to make wheat or rice or something and you can turn that into your kingdoms currency until the economy grows. (since 1 pound of wheat equals a copper piece then just calculate how much wheat feeds a person for a day and have the Create Food trap churn it out constantly. Not sure if you could get the 700 gp a month on magically conjured wheat but you should certainly be able to once the economy grows)

Stone Shape - probably not as good as Plant Growth or just hiring somebody but you can make stuff out of stone.

Some sort of permanent magical fire - Use it to melt sand into glass and create a booming glass economy?

Lots and lots of mirrors - create a Death Ray or otherwise harness the power of the sun to do stuff with. Combined with a Decanter of Water or other water source you could set up hundreds of mirrors all over the place and focus them onto a Boiler to create steam power. Then use the steam to power weird steampunk factories and stuff.

Invent the refrigerator - Use magic or technology, develop a way to create ice on demand. Combined with Decanter of Water, start selling blocks of ice or something and watch trade caravans come in.



Or put spies in all of your taverns and have them keep a lookout for mysterious old men who are looking for adventurers. Then use those as leads for getting more money until you have enough to pull crazy stuff with magic.

Benejeseret
2010-03-12, 03:22 PM
If Dwarf Fortress has taught me anything, it's that sand is an unlimited source of wealth.

Stained Glass Golems or Alchemy Beetles would make a suitable export. Even one a year more then pays the rent.

Hire some artificers and alchemical savants and start a bottling factory.

Randel
2010-03-12, 03:36 PM
Also, you've got an artificer in your group, right? Are you sure that you can't make some of the magical stuff involved here?

Fabricate is a 5th level wizard spell and come at level 9 for wizards. An artificer should be able to pull it off at level 7. With that, you can craft a Lyre of Building which in the right hands basically means all the labor you want forever and working at about 100 times as fast (half an hour = 100 men working for three days. 8 hours = 100 men working 48 days).

Control Water gets you a Decanter of Endless Water which is a win button for desert economies. Its a lvl 4 druid spell and should be available to lvl 7 druids (I'm not exactly sure what spells you have available, whats the highest level spell you can cast?)

Also... there is a 1st level spell in Spell Compendium for Druids called Beget Bogun. Not exactly sure what a Bogun can do but I recall thinking that it was similar to Unseen Servant except cooler somehow. Needs ranks in craft basket weaving or something though... you should be able to get some sort of masterwork thing to pass the check if you really want to. From what I've read on the spell summaries then its instantaneous... not sure if you can have more than one or if it breaks down eventtually.

If it turns out that you can mass-produce constructs (even if they are made out of old leaves and twigs) that can be used for cheap labor then you're even better off than if you use corpses... after all, someone has to die to make neco-workers.

Artificers can make homunculi and other constructs which can fill in some construction roles. Dedicated Writes can mass-produce stuff (maybe masterwork glass bottles?) and Expeditious Messengers can spy the surrounding lands and deliver messengers (with the artificer as the middle-man in all messages delivered... maybe start up some kind of postal service horribly similar to the Harry Potter owl stuff except with flying constructs that can hear and see everything. Careful since the artificer takes damage if one of the homunculi gets injured).

Unseen Crafter is a spell in Faiths of Eberron (I think) 2nd level wizard spell that lets one summon a crafter for 24 hours a level. With craft skills they can make masterwork stuff and turn excess spell slots into cash per day. Get a steady income to buy Pearls of Power with it and a Wizard could make some kind of horrible magical sweatshop filled with magically conjured workers... of course the whole place shuts down if the wizard dies or stops casting the spell but thats another option.

or

Create a Clack Network (from Discworld, its a series of semaphore towers set up at regular intervals with people on watch delivering messages across vast tracks of land by sending messages in semaphore) could probably be faster by using magic but this way you've got a genuine industry going. People can pay to have news sent across the Clack Network far faster than it could be delivered by horse or whatever.

Asheram
2010-03-12, 03:52 PM
@ Randel.

Lyre of building is a good idea... I'll check if there's any bards in the area, but the only way I'll be using that lyre is to build the river later on.

No food and water traps, no obvious cheese for our DM, unfortunatly. :smallredface:

About Control water, I'm a L5 druid, going for MoMF, so no deal there, I'm afraid.

*sighs* I got really excited when I found out about Beget bogun, but the problem is that they're tiny, they won't stay more than 500 yards away from me, and I take 2d10 hp when I die, they're like homonculus but worse...
But it was a fine idea, I'll ask the artificer if he can't produce some golem diggers. ;)

Randel
2010-03-12, 03:52 PM
If Dwarf Fortress has taught me anything, it's that sand is an unlimited source of wealth.

Stained Glass Golems or Alchemy Beetles would make a suitable export. Even one a year more then pays the rent.

Hire some artificers and alchemical savants and start a bottling factory.

Better yet, get a bottle-making factory, then have the decanter of endless water to make infinite water and start selling bottled water! (maybe distill it to make it totally pure... either permanant magical fire or with a boiler thats powered by solar energy and mirrors).

Aqua Pelor: The only bottled water purified by the power of the SUN!

Then have some people work on making bottled drinks... maybe exotic tea leaves of flavorings to make peoples water taste better.

Set up some breweries to make alcohol to fill the bottles with.

Dwarf Fortified Bottled Ale: The very first bottled alcohol for the man on the go!

Then go about looking for sweet plants and juices... maybe get someone with alchemical training to make granulated sugar and start selling sweet drinks (not sure if you can make them carbonated without expensive magic).

Get the first bottle making factory set up and then have artificers and craftsmen work on automating it with their trapmaking and mechanical skills.

Once you start mass-producing bottles then you can sell them cheap and then see about buying up produce to make the juices and stuff to put in the bottles. People might buy the bottles because you can make then cheaper than elsewhere... but once you start selling the bottles with stuff in them then its all the better. Heck, if you can send get a catchy brand name and keep up your bottle production (maybe invent vending machines so people can buy bottled ale anytime anywhere... it would use the trapmaking skill of course) then it would be so popular that farmers might rush to sell their produce to you since they know you can sell it.

Lysander
2010-03-12, 04:29 PM
Sleet Storm could also be a good source of water. It makes a circle with an 80ft diameter covered in ice. Of course if it's very thin ice it might not be worth your trouble when you have Create Water.

Create Water itself is a useful tool. As a level 5 druid you can create 50 gallons a day. It's not enough to support an entire province or support major agriculture, but you could provide drinking water for a small town or settlement.

When you get to mining you'll have an easy time burrowing through rock with Soften Earth and Stone. So if there is ore, it should be easy to extract.

Volkov
2010-03-12, 04:37 PM
Greetings everyone.

Now, I'm recently the proud owner of a small province, as well as a keep upon the lands. Unfortunatly, I'm in a bit of a pickle here as I noticed the cost to manage this keep. Almost 700gp a month (not including the taxes I have to pay to the Sultan).

Now, the other trouble I'm in is that I don't have the revenue to keep this going for ever, and the worst part is that it's in a desert enviroment.

So, I have three alternatives:
1. Stimulate the economy.
2. Go kill a dragon every few years or so.
3. Live as a pauper in my fort.
4. Decline the position and somewhat mess up the plot of the adventure.

Now, I decide to go for option 1, but how to do it?

There are no local caravan routes that I can exploit, nor are there any real settlements. The only locals I've got are a tribe of beduins and a tribe of Tri-kreen that live on the very borders of the province.

There is a mountain range nearby which I very much hope to cointain an ore deposit, but I can't Live on that hope.

Now, I'm currently reading up on desert farming and irrigation, but I don't have an awful lot of hope to that unless I can get hold of a spell or device to make it rain.

So, I'm asking for your help. What is a poor satrap to do?
Look out for obese four armed genies with armies of giant glass spiders.....wait I'm still stuck in Rise of Legends aren't I?

Asheram
2010-03-12, 04:48 PM
Look out for obese four armed genies with armies of giant glass spiders.....wait I'm still stuck in Rise of Legends aren't I?

I suspect you are, friend. :) Hmm... though armies of glass golem spiders sounds fun.

Fcannon
2010-03-12, 04:52 PM
The problem with undead-based utopias is that making an undead from someone's corpse prevents them from being resurrected, so some interpret that some version of their soul, twisted by negative energy, is what fuels them.

Do you have access to Complete Arcane? If so, you might want to look into getting some Effigies. Effigy halflings (or gnomes, or kobolds or goblins) cost 3,000 gp each or 2,000 gp and 80 xp to build. More expensive than undead, but also more durable, and less likely to cause problems with certain churches or freak out visitors.

Since this is the desert, you should look into getting Sandstorm if you don't have it, it's got lots of great desert material. It lists some valuable natural resources found in deserts; if there's any pockets of shapesand or oleum (basically oil) in your territory they can bring in some decent money.

deuxhero
2010-03-12, 04:57 PM
Find a decanter of endless water and profit.

Cieyrin
2010-03-12, 05:07 PM
Dig. Dig down, and dig far. Groundwater will often build up behind clay-rich fault gouges. If you can dig through the clay rich barrier, you can have an artificial aquifer that can be directed to where it's needed. Summon yourself an Earth elemental, and get it digging aquifers. Cheaper and less vulnerable to dispels than decanters, and as the water flows fairly freely, poisoning is difficult.

"But cheezewizz, there's no water in deserts"

There's loads, you just haven't dug deep* enough yet. Bare in mind that an Oasis is merely a place where groundwater reaches ground level.

Further reading:
National Geographic
(http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/resources_who.html)
BNet (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4128/is_200602/ai_n17170313/)

*By deep, I mean hundreds to thousands of feet. Not economical with man power, but when you can summon and bind things that tunnel at 30'/round, underground cities are cheaper and easier to build than overground ones.
________

Also, many modern deserts contain significant ore reserves. This is largely dependant on the palaeoenvironmental conditions rocks were deposited under (something most DMs neglect to consider), but if you can find somewhere where mudstones are sitting on top of sandstones or conglomerates, you might get lucky and find copper ores/native copper with minor silver and gold deposits at the contact. Look for dark green stains on the rock.

Sites of ancient, long extinct volcanoes are a gold mine (literally).

Screw digging for water, just make your own wells. Sweet Water is a 2nd level druid spell from Complete Divine or Defenders of the Faith (don't recall off-hand and away from those books atm) that creates 100 foot wells of fresh water. Bam! Oases where you need 'em, when you need 'em.

No need to screw with Decanters of Endless Water (which seem to be in short supply in the campaign world in question, anyways) and well within the range of our druid friend here.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

BRC
2010-03-12, 05:11 PM
Look out for obese four armed genies with armies of giant glass spiders.....wait I'm still stuck in Rise of Legends aren't I?
That game had such an awesome concept, with disappointing execution. So many elements of it were awesome, but they just didn't come together to their full potential.

Also, I want a Land Leviathan or, failing that, Glass Cannons.

Scratch that, I want to mount some glass cannons on a land leviathan.

Asheram
2010-03-12, 05:22 PM
Screw digging for water, just make your own wells. Sweet Water is a 2nd level druid spell from Complete Divine or Defenders of the Faith (don't recall off-hand and away from those books atm) that creates 100 foot wells of fresh water. Bam! Oases where you need 'em, when you need 'em.

No need to screw with Decanters of Endless Water (which seem to be in short supply in the campaign world in question, anyways) and well within the range of our druid friend here.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

oooh... I'll take them, but not sure if I can spend them, unfortunatly.

Defenders of the faith is a 3.0 book after all... I'll see if I can get it past the DM, but I do hope I'll be able to.

Cieyrin
2010-03-12, 05:27 PM
oooh... I'll take them, but not sure if I can spend them, unfortunatly.

Defenders of the faith is a 3.0 book after all... I'll see if I can get it past the DM, but I do hope I'll be able to.

I know it was in Defenders but I'm still fairly sure it made it Complete Divine, I just don't have a good way to confirm that right now.

Asheram
2010-03-12, 05:27 PM
I know it was in Defenders but I'm still fairly sure it made it Complete Divine, I just don't have a good way to confirm that right now.

Oh, I checked. Unfortunatly it wasn't.

Cieyrin
2010-03-12, 05:38 PM
Oh, I checked. Unfortunatly it wasn't.

Well, regardless, I don't think it would be unreasonable to get access to said spell, as it's hardly over-powering, unless you start using it to create pitfalls for your foes. It's more an RP spell than anything, anyways.

Asheram
2010-03-12, 05:43 PM
Well, regardless, I don't think it would be unreasonable to get access to said spell, as it's hardly over-powering, unless you start using it to create pitfalls for your foes. It's more an RP spell than anything, anyways.

True... and.. *chuckles* I believe he'll be slightly hungover in the morrow, so I won't have Too much trouble to get things past him.

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-12, 06:05 PM
How about maybe training animals(horses, falcons)? Who better than a druid to train/raise animals.

Perhaps open a brothel that caters to high level NPCs (teleport, saves time).

Create a 'sword' tax anyone carrying a weapon bigger than, say, a dagger has to pay to come into your lands.

Have you thought of maybe using unseen servants, and create food and water to cut down on the cost per month?

Have you asked your God/s for help/advice?

BRC
2010-03-12, 06:11 PM
Create a 'sword' tax anyone carrying a weapon bigger than, say, a dagger has to pay to come into your lands.

Wouldn't work. The thing about deserts is there are very few chokepoints, people could walk right past your customs people. Taxes at the border are not going to be effective (also, the problem with taxing Weapons, is that the people being taxed are going to be the ones most capable of avoiding paying those taxes). If you have a settlement, you could tax people entering it.

XBobbis
2010-03-12, 06:12 PM
4 Decanters of Endless Water always going full blast produce 1,728,000 gallons of water a day. The average American (keep in mind, AMERICAN, not medieval peasant) uses 123 gallons per day. That's about 14050 people that can be supplied with water for 36k gp. I had a mountain city in a campaign that used them for water.

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-12, 06:15 PM
Put up ring gates. 1 at your place the other in _____________. Once you have items/services to sell of course.

Asheram
2010-03-12, 06:26 PM
4 Decanters of Endless Water always going full blast produce 1,728,000 gallons of water a day. The average American (keep in mind, AMERICAN, not medieval peasant) uses 123 gallons per day. That's about 14050 people that can be supplied with water for 36k gp. I had a mountain city in a campaign that used them for water.

Yeah, I calculated that earlier. A single decanter makes about 1635.3 m3 of water. That's a square km of water, so I figure that you can use one to build a river. Or 2 in order to get some flow on it.

Cieyrin
2010-03-12, 06:27 PM
Put up ring gates. 1 at your place the other in _____________. Once you have items/services to sell of course.

Ring Gates are a bit expensive to set up, more so than Decanters are, so I don't think that's a viable avenue right now. Later on, sure, that's a possibility.

Flickerdart
2010-03-12, 06:59 PM
Teleportation Circles would probably be better, since they can be made Permanent more easily.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-03-12, 07:25 PM
I'm thinking you're set with Decanters and Undead Labor - that's pretty much all you need.

If you need a steady flow of corpses, think about paying your peasants (you do have peasants, right?) for the bodies of their family members. Or, more nicely, pay for the funeral and take the body afterwards :smalltongue:

Out of curiosity - if your keep is the last stop between your kingdom and a neighboring one, why aren't there any caravans running by you? :smallconfused:

Asheram
2010-03-12, 07:37 PM
Out of curiosity - if your keep is the last stop between your kingdom and a neighboring one, why aren't there any caravans running by you? :smallconfused:

I don't believe I've actually said that... Anyhow, I believe we sort of blindsided the DM with the whole "We've got a province! Let's improve it!", so we've got to work with what we have so far.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-03-12, 07:50 PM
I don't believe I've actually said that... Anyhow, I believe we sort of blindsided the DM with the whole "We've got a province! Let's improve it!", so we've got to work with what we have so far.
I was referring to this post:

Yeah.. I'm wondering the same thing...

Now, the plot is that it's a shared position, one that has the political control, and one that has control over the land.

The thing is that there's this rule that it's an inherited position (but not for long), and due to that the other people that've held the position now have been killed in 'accidents', makes me the last obstacle between Hassan (the other ruler) and him holding Both the positions.

I do wonder if there's anything special on the land, or if he's just hungry for power.
But I'm probably misreading this some way. Are you saying you have a co-ruler or somesuch?

In any case, using Undead for terraforming is the perfect way to upgrade a province on the cheap. The Decanter of Endless Water (even just 1) is a must for any Desert Kingdom.

All you need is to set up some mineworks and you're set.

Asheram
2010-03-12, 08:01 PM
I was referring to this post:

But I'm probably misreading this some way. Are you saying you have a co-ruler or somesuch?

In any case, using Undead for terraforming is the perfect way to upgrade a province on the cheap. The Decanter of Endless Water (even just 1) is a must for any Desert Kingdom.

All you need is to set up some mineworks and you're set.

Yeah... It's a bit difficult to explain.

Think of it as that I've got the position of caretaker of the land, and that Hassan; the co-ruler, is the Sultans advisor about said land.

Think of him as the standard Evil Vizir that has a very legitimate reason to want... Me, I guess. As I'm the one in the group who holds the position... dead.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-03-12, 08:06 PM
Yeah... It's a bit difficult to explain.

Think of it as that I've got the position of caretaker of the land, and that Hassan; the co-ruler, is the Sultans advisor about said land.

Think of him as the standard Evil Vizir that has a very legitimate reason to want... Me, I guess. As I'm the one in the group who holds the position... dead.
Have you tried killing him yet? Otherwise he's just going to screw around with your attempts of terraforming in order to discredit you.

I wouldn't worry so much about assassination - you are a druid, after all :smalltongue:

Ashiel
2010-03-12, 08:09 PM
Definitely. Many of the biggest hurdles in history for building powerful empires, economies, and civilizations has been the need for laborers. Some cultures resorted to slavery to fill that need, while others made do without. Either way, it requires you to split your population about and encourage certain types of economic positions. The further the disparity between the upper and lower classes, the more likely that crime and rebellion will develop.

Undead labor and soldiers see to that problem very handily. You effectively don't loose citizens. If someone grows old and dies, their bodies rejoin the work-force carrying blocks, digging ditches, mining, cutting down trees, and functioning as a standing militia.

Meanwhile, living people are free to pursue academic endeavors such as architecture, alchemy, philosophy, the arts, and sciences of all kinds. Given time, your people would eventually out-pace rivals in major fields. Large amounts of resources can be spent on researching new technologies.

----

As to the undead cannot be raised thing...the undead type and the resurrection spells conflict a bit. Furthermore, I think the text may have been intended to prevent people from being turned undead then back again so easily. As I understand it, in previous editions it was possible to raise a lich or similar undead to negate all of their powers (and likely kill them due to old age). Sometimes I think they were trying to change this but worded it oddly.

This is purely speculation however; and I may be incorrect as to the raising thing. Working from memory here, and I don't have any references. :smallsmile:

Asheram
2010-03-12, 08:12 PM
Have you tried killing him yet? Otherwise he's just going to screw around with your attempts of terraforming in order to discredit you.

I wouldn't worry so much about assassination - you are a druid, after all :smalltongue:

I was thinking of sending the local thieves guild after him to get some proper evidence, unfortunatly I don't really dare assassinate him directly as I recently had a trial where I got three local priests to cast "commune" in order to get some truths out into the open. And as the rule is, if I can use it, so can the DM... *sighs* There's no way misinterperet to the divine word when it says "guilty". (no religious discussion upon this, please)

And about me being assassinated, well, perhaps I don't have to worry That much, but I believe that a healthy amount of paranoia will keep you alive a bit longer than if you didn't have it.

druid91
2010-03-12, 08:12 PM
Dig. Dig down, and dig far. Groundwater will often build up behind clay-rich fault gouges. If you can dig through the clay rich barrier, you can have an artificial aquifer that can be directed to where it's needed. Summon yourself an Earth elemental, and get it digging aquifers. Cheaper and less vulnerable to dispels than decanters, and as the water flows fairly freely, poisoning is difficult.

"But cheezewizz, there's no water in deserts"

There's loads, you just haven't dug deep* enough yet. Bare in mind that an Oasis is merely a place where groundwater reaches ground level.

Further reading:
National Geographic
(http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/resources_who.html)
BNet (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4128/is_200602/ai_n17170313/)

*By deep, I mean hundreds to thousands of feet. Not economical with man power, but when you can summon and bind things that tunnel at 30'/round, underground cities are cheaper and easier to build than overground ones.
________

Also, many modern deserts contain significant ore reserves. This is largely dependant on the palaeoenvironmental conditions rocks were deposited under (something most DMs neglect to consider), but if you can find somewhere where mudstones are sitting on top of sandstones or conglomerates, you might get lucky and find copper ores/native copper with minor silver and gold deposits at the contact. Look for dark green stains on the rock.

Sites of ancient, long extinct volcanoes are a gold mine (literally).

I find your title oddly appropriate.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-03-12, 08:18 PM
I was thinking of sending the local thieves guild after him to get some proper evidence, unfortunatly I don't really dare assassinate him directly as I recently had a trial where I got three local priests to cast "commune" in order to get some truths out into the open. And as the rule is, if I can use it, so can the DM... *sighs* There's no way misinterperet the divine word. (no religious discussion upon this, please)

And about me being assassinated, well, perhaps I don't have to worry That much, but I believe that a healthy amount of paranoia will keep you alive a bit longer than if you didn't have it.
Wait... who's law are you afraid of? I mean, I know the DM won't be happy if you off-handedly kill his next BBEG but really - who's going to prosecute you? And why do you care?

Also: you're in a place where you could get three 9th level clerics together to testify in a trial? Why not just get them together and ask "is the Evil Vizier behind the deaths of my predecessors?" :smallconfused:

Asheram
2010-03-12, 08:26 PM
Wait... who's law are you afraid of? I mean, I know the DM won't be happy if you off-handedly kill his next BBEG but really - who's going to prosecute you? And why do you care?

Also: you're in a place where you could get three 9th level clerics together to testify in a trial? Why not just get them together and ask "is the Evil Vizier behind the deaths of my predecessors?" :smallconfused:

Alright, I didn't explain this properly earlier, my apologies.
Now, we're just the keepers of a province in a Much larger sultanate, which means that we're just enjoying what we have under the sheltering hand of The Emper... The Sultan, the problem is that Hassan has kept his position for... I'm not sure how many years and is more favored in the eyes of The Sultan than the heathen newcomer (I don't even worship the local gods).

Frankly, I'm Terrified of The Sultan. If he decides upon a whim that Hassan has proved himself worthy by managing to kill off his competition without anyone really noticing, then I'm ******, if you'll excuse the expression.

Gorilla2038
2010-03-12, 08:33 PM
You dont worship the local gods? Sweet!

Use the traditional Islamic tolerance: tax those that dont worship, well, whatever they worship around there. A good part of the reason the Calph's were so very rich was the massive taxes they reaped from egypt, syria and everywhere else.

It doesnt have to be alot: 1 gold a year from a tiny minority of people would cover it.

Edit: Make a big deal about paying the tax yourself: no one likes a cheat or a liar(as not paying or converting might be) but you can build a large amount of respect for honesty this way.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-03-12, 08:33 PM
Frankly, I'm Terrified of The Sultan, if he decides upon a whim that Hassan has proved himself worthy by managing to kill off his competition without anyone really noticing, then I'm ******, if you'll excuse the expression.
Probably should gather up those priests and get them to testify that Hassan has been killing off your predecessors. Or, after an attempt or two on your life, get them to testify that Hassan is trying to kill you.

Seriously, this guy is going to louse up anything you try if he's trying to get you out of there. Unless he's the one paying the taxes? :smallconfused:

druid91
2010-03-12, 09:03 PM
Okay for helpfulness.
1: Build incredible natural hunting grounds to attract the Thri-kreen.
2: Use sand ships to run a heavy cargo shipping business across the desert useing the Thri-kreen as gaurds.
3:Tax everyone.

as for Hassan well if you can remove him in a manner similar to the way he removed your predecessors well that would make the sultan respect you even more, right?

1: Find a blue dragon the older the better but make sure its young enough that he knows that if he attacks you and your compatriots he will lose preferably one looking for a lair. help him set up lair in the mountains, secretly of course.

2: Build a noble palace fill it with luxuries of all kinds, personal waterfall in the bedroom, balcony overlooking the thri-kreen hunting grounds, grand dining hall the whole nine yards. Avoid things that would require excess servants with the excuse that "Few could be found of proper temperament to serve you Sir." besides he doesn't need a royal eyebrow cleaner.

3: Invite hassan to visit and offer gifts and in general act like your trying to buy your safety. Be sure to provide all the guards he needs, In the form of superior Thri-kreen soldiers. Even if he has guards of his own.

4: Some point during his stay arrange for a messy draconic rampage through the palace being sure that the dragon is "driven off*" by you and your friends, but not before Hassan takes a lethal dose of electricity. make sure a few of your soldiers go down in this assault as well. they can be quietly resurrected after everything Quiets down.

5: Pay the dragon and either leave it in the mountains for future jobs or kill it and take your money back.

pingcode20
2010-03-12, 09:12 PM
...Come to think of it, don't the Thri-kreen eat elves?

So you can kill two birds with one stone and build a thriving elven tourist trap, and you'll have both Elves and Thri-kreen emigrating in droves.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-12, 09:23 PM
For a unique solution. Set up government sponsored casinos. It's astounding how much money people will just give away when they think there's a chance of hitting it big. Use the profits to make bigger better casinos and resorts and fund an advertisement campaign as far as you can reach. You'll have a tourist hot-spot in no time. Anyone that can afford to travel and likes to gamble comes to your desert playground to spend spend spend. It worked for Vegas :smalltongue: it also has the distinct advantage of being entirely mundane. Fair warning: this setup may lead to significant organized criminal activity in your city.

druid91
2010-03-12, 11:10 PM
...Come to think of it, don't the Thri-kreen eat elves?

So you can kill two birds with one stone and build a thriving elven tourist trap, and you'll have both Elves and Thri-kreen emigrating in droves.

I don't think so?:smalleek:

Abd al-Azrad
2010-03-12, 11:59 PM
For a unique solution. Set up government sponsored casinos. It's astounding how much money people will just give away when they think there's a chance of hitting it big. Use the profits to make bigger better casinos and resorts and fund an advertisement campaign as far as you can reach. You'll have a tourist hot-spot in no time. Anyone that can afford to travel and likes to gamble comes to your desert playground to spend spend spend. It worked for Vegas :smalltongue: it also has the distinct advantage of being entirely mundane. Fair warning: this setup may lead to significant organized criminal activity in your city.

This is a great solution if your long-term plan is to destroy your own economy. It works wonders, yes, but only if the kingdom actually has some connection to the normal world. This desert kingdom is almost unique in its complete lack of natural resources, water, or trade with any major powers nearby. It's as if it was set up to fail, by some arbitrary power...

Okay, I propose this solution, not really as a useful option (because I suspect your character would never take it) but as a challenge to the lack of economic principles which created this dystopian city. Seriously, it exists for the sole purpose of having a dark secret that your political competitor is clearly working to win. Or, your political competitor is an idiot and should be left to govern his hellish desert city, and run out of money, and die poor and thirsty.

As I see it, you have two major advantages to capitalize on: your complete lack of connection to the outside world, and your citizens' apparent ability to survive despite no nearby resources, including food and water. This is insane, almost impossible, but it also shows an incredible opportunity I cannot allow you to ignore.

My solution is this: start paying, out of your own PC pocket, for the training and equipping of a group of fast-hitting, brutal raiding parties. Recruit/conscript your warriors out of the toughest, meanest sand-farmers/thri-kreen hunters your city has (because it obviously is populated by people who can survive in extremely harsh conditions). Then take those sons of the desert out, and lead a series of daring, brutal raids on the merchant lines that exist far from your city. Loot, plunder, leave none alive (your goal is not to spread a message, so survivors are a liability).

Each time you bring supplies and merchandise back to your city, your state flourishes. You gain wealth, prestige and much-needed food and water. Give first choice of loot to your most effective soldiers, to create a demand for skilled warriors. Recruit more warriors, re-equip, and move on.

In time, step up your raids to hit nearby cities that DO have water and natural resources. Burn those cities to the ground. THIS PART IS CRUCIAL. You need to make it clear that any who oppose you will die awfully. Sadly, this is a necessary sacrifice for the long-term plan. Never target cities under the protection of your Sultan, unless you can wriggle some sneaky diplomatic trick through with him so he'll allow your assault.

The big trick you're exploiting is, (A) your soldiers and civilians are both almost impossible to track, over miles of loose sand in which tracking is impossible, and (B) if anyone learns of your actions, you live in a singularly difficult place to assault in retribution, located miles away from any well or place of refuge. History has shown that marching any army over miles of desert without incredible logistics, the like that no medieval army can hope to field, ends in soldiers dying of thirst by the thousands. Simply put: if you have some way of surviving in a desert, and an opposing army doesn't, their soldiers will mutiny or dehydrate before they can effectively mount a counterattack. This is your only necessary defense from any enemy army.

Basically, from here, wash, rinse and repeat until your reputation spreads around the desert, then start offering surrender as an option to major cities and civilizations. They'll capitulate. With your (PC-inspired) 100% success rate and the alternative to flee across miles of desert, no sane non-high-level-NPC will resist you. That includes every subject in the desert.

Long-term goal: You are a major military power, expanding based on your ability to strike vulnerable targets while being impossible to counterattack. From here, move on to other economic concerns, like establishing a steady flow of water from your conquered states to your homeland.

EDIT: I write way too much.

Zen Master
2010-03-13, 05:55 AM
As far as I can see, you're going about it backwards.

No one builds a fortress in the desert to raise crops - come on, it's not like the castle master and the head engineer looked at the land and went 'erm well - with a bit of work, a whole lot of magic and the forced import of populace, we could build a nice little farming community here!'

You build fortresses in the desert for the following reasons:


Besieging one is a real pain in the rearside
No one will come along and attack because of your attractive farmland
It's a wonderful base for raiding your neighbors


You have beduin and thri-kreen? What better raiders could any feudal lord wish for? Train them, equip them, and send them to the edges of the desert to raid, plunder, pillage and steal from your enemies.

It's what any self respecting satrap would do. Surely there are godless heathens enough who deserve no less?

Kirgoth
2010-03-13, 07:26 AM
First off; immediately kill all your political opponents
Hassan and any others must die. Brutally, quickly and permanently on the first night you arrive. Wildshape and eat them. Seriously, what is the Saltan going to do ?; he did put you in charge and saying you stuffed up would make him look stupid for giving you the position in the first place. He really would have to say well done and praise your great leadership to make himself look good; even if privately he is annoyed.

Secondly; Destroy the fortress utterly.
Fortresses are to allow the local ruler to be nasty and brutal to his subjects and not get killed in his sleep. They are of no use in a full on battle with 9th level characters fighting; barring super magical forts which cost millions to build. They won't stop an assasin good enough to be sent against a 9th level character. You are a druid, I'd imagine sleeping in a different place in the desert each night, surrounded by friendly dire scorpions and nice awakened cacti as guards would be much more secure; tracking you would alone be tricky. Destroying the fortress (its yours afterall), will allow you to lower the taxes on the populace as they no longer have to support such a wasteful, ugly and unnatural structure and get them very happy with you. Then if someone tries to take over your land (after travelling way out into YOUR desert) they will have no fort to take and the populace will be very much against them and help you retake your land (probably by killing them in their sleep as they have no fortress to hide in).

Third; Diplomacy with your neighbours
( trikeen and beduin); trade, non-agression, or agression if you wan't a war, mabee marry a nice woman you actually like.

Fourth; Train and equip some of the populace
Really, why bother; 1st to 3rd level commoners are useless. Besides barring psion reformat you cannot change peoples feats and skills. Obviously if you have a psion with xp to burn and willing people then rock on and turn them into militant; wildtalented fighter-psion types. Raiding with commoners and low level plebs is pointless at 9th level unless you wan't them to die; in which case there is easier ways.

Fifth; Make the locals love you
Lower the taxes; removing annoying tax gathering laws and fines. High diplomacy skills will also help. Convert to the local religion and wear local clothes and hairstyle (become one of them) . I cannot stress this too much as people hate foreigners. Let people do their own thing and keep out of their hair.

Sixth; Enviromental change
Don't use your magic to make things more fertile or start up magic rivers; teach the locals to love and appreciate the beauty of the desert and how to live in harmony with it.


Have fun; keep the sun out of your eyes and be yourself.

Coidzor
2010-03-13, 07:52 AM
I think, above all, we want the scoop on this sitch.

Quincunx
2010-03-13, 07:57 AM
4 Decanters of Endless Water always going full blast produce 1,728,000 gallons of water a day. The average American (keep in mind, AMERICAN, not medieval peasant) uses 123 gallons per day. That's about 14050 people that can be supplied with water for 36k gp. I had a mountain city in a campaign that used them for water.

Current guidance is 135L/person/day minimum for drinking, cooking, cleaning, and sanitation: round that for convenience to 35 gallons. The max heavy load for an average (10STR) unencumbered commoner is 12.5 gallons, which means they could drag their daily allotment home unassisted--but some form of delivery system installed after they have been toting water for awhile would earn you respect.

jpreem
2010-03-20, 10:23 AM
Screw digging for water, just make your own wells. Sweet Water is a 2nd level druid spell from Complete Divine or Defenders of the Faith (don't recall off-hand and away from those books atm) that creates 100 foot wells of fresh water. Bam! Oases where you need 'em, when you need 'em.

No need to screw with Decanters of Endless Water (which seem to be in short supply in the campaign world in question, anyways) and well within the range of our druid friend here.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.


This spell locates a source of fresh water within 100 feet
of the surface. If a water source is in range, it excavates a
well shaft down to that water. Otherwise, the spell fails
Quote form DoF

the humanity
2010-03-20, 01:25 PM
some mixing could be useful. to prevent water evaporation and seeping (which is not very prevalent in the desert- but evaporation really makes up for it), making large glass tunnel for your water could be very useful. you would need a protective frame of some sort to provide strength to this glass monstrosity, and maybe a fire elemental to provide repairs, but it could prove very useful for transporting water. and such a unique thing would no doubt incite a level of tourism, similar to the Pyramids or the Great Wall of China, just not to that same scale.

the raiding could be easily derailed by a well guarded merchant. too easy.

the temple could be good. ultimately, any local history can do, everywhere has a little history.

opening a school for wizards or fighters or something like that could work.