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View Full Version : Fixing VoP? 3.x



randomhero00
2010-03-12, 07:05 PM
So I don't know about you, but I've always loved the idea/fluff behind vow of poverty. Monks too for that matter. So how can we change it to make it viable/better? Especially for monks. Perhaps a monk only version that grants lots of ex and su abilities? This is of course mostly in reference to higher levels when it starts to become trash and you need things like fly and displacement to be effective.

The easiest way I think would be through creating new exalted feats, but that require VoP to take and that would have their counterparts as prereqs.

Mystic Muse
2010-03-12, 07:06 PM
something that makes flurry of blows a standard action?

The Glyphstone
2010-03-12, 07:12 PM
Variable bonuses. Perhaps a scaling pool of 'ascetic points' or something that can be spent to 'purchase' permanent bonuses - stat boosts, supernatural flight, self-healing, whatever. The things that a VoP character gives up by sacrificing magic items, which ends up crippling them into unplayability.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-12, 07:35 PM
First of all, the feats it grants can be ANY feat you qualify for. You're restricted to any and all items that cost 1 gp or less (or are required for your class abilities, such as a cleric's holy symbol, a wizard's spellbook, or a +30 Truespeak item for a truenamer). You gain a swim/burrow/fly speed. You gain a few Su or Sp abilities that emulate some utility spells (or, better yet, soulmelds).

That should come close.

AstralFire
2010-03-12, 07:40 PM
VoP is fine as it is, frankly. If you're playing in a game where people are using custom magic item, scrolls and wands all over the place, it's not only going to not keep up - it's going to fall way behind. There is simply no way to keep it up to par in such a case without making its flavor messed up. If the key to real ultimate power for everyone without a big stash of gold is to focus on being poor, money would go out of style fast.

Monk fixes:
- Flurry of Blows can appended to any type of normal attack action - including Spring Attack, Charge, and Standard Action attacks.
- Change stunning fist to be usable (level/4) per encounter, not per day.
- Allow stunning fist to be used on anything.
- Quivering Palm becomes a 1/day attack.
- Abundant Step and Empty Body become 1/encounter swift actions.
- Grant the Monk Mettle at 4th level.
- Increase skill points to 6+Int per level.
- Give the monk a flat 2 AC bonus at all levels.
- Perfect Self grants the Monk an (Ex) miss chance of 20%.

My suggestions change every time and I am really sleepy, but most of that is fairly consistent.

Thurbane
2010-03-12, 07:54 PM
VoP is fine as it is, frankly. If you're playing in a game where people are using custom magic item, scrolls and wands all over the place, it's not only going to not keep up - it's going to fall way behind. There is simply no way to keep it up to par in such a case without making its flavor messed up. If the key to real ultimate power for everyone without a big stash of gold is to focus on being poor, money would go out of style fast.
This. :smallcool:

Pluto
2010-03-12, 08:01 PM
Regarding VoP, ericgrau had a pretty good idea for low-wealth campaigns similar to the Glyphstone's suggestion:

Divide WBL by a thousand every level. You can consider this value to be a character's "wealth points" or somesuch. These points can be spent for the vanilla +X ability enhancements/AC/resistance bonuses every level.

Give most characters, say, 1/2 to 3/4 of the wealth points that they should have from their WBL every time they level up. Supplementary magic items get to be special without requiring the Christmas Tree effect.

If a character swears a Vow of Poverty, bring him to the full WBL-equivalent wealth points, so long as the vow is upheld. On top of that, you can add other non-expendable magic item effects to the options every level. VoP characters may appear to come out ahead of their non-VoP counterparts, but once you factor in item crafting and expendable items, I'd think it would work pretty well.
---
"Balancing the Monk" depends on your target power level.

I think it's fine, but if you want it to stack up to the Psychic Warrior and its ilk, just tack on the Psychic Warrior power progression with powers learned every second level.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-12, 09:31 PM
First of all, the feats it grants can be ANY feat you qualify for. You're restricted to any and all items that cost 1 gp or less (or are required for your class abilities, such as a cleric's holy symbol, a wizard's spellbook, or a +30 Truespeak item for a truenamer). You gain a swim/burrow/fly speed. You gain a few Su or Sp abilities that emulate some utility spells (or, better yet, soulmelds).

That should come close.

That or alter Exalted feats that exist to provide support to every class that could benefit from them.

I've been contemplating redesigning Abyssal Heirator, Vile, Exalted, and Devil-Touched feats into a workable alignment/Code of Conduct mechanic based on Elder Evil's devotion system. Dunno if I will actually do it though.

About the Truenamer: VoP providing skill boosts would be worth thinking about.

Optimystik
2010-03-12, 11:22 PM
VoP has four main problems:

1) two feats to activate (the first of which is a no-benefit tax);
2) the ban is too broad (no items except for [very small list], can't even borrow items from party members without falling);
3) the best benefits come too late (you don't get the True Seeing until level 18 or the +8 to an ability score until 19, for instance);
4) Finally, there just aren't any enough good exalted feats to take with your bonuses.

AgentPaper
2010-03-13, 12:53 AM
What if, instead of forcing you to give up all items and then granting you static bonuses, the bonuses scaled with how much wealth you've given to the needy?

Then, for high-wealth campaigns with lots of magic items, you'll be able to keep up, and if you're in a low-wealth campaign with little to no items, you won't be super-powerful for giving up 2 gold and a masterwork club.

FishAreWet
2010-03-13, 01:02 AM
GHOST TOUCH is what it needs.

But VoP can be okay if you don't use it on Monk characters. Use it on things like Divine Minion Master of Many Forms. When you can turn into so many things, you can emulate a surprising amount of items.

Also consider delaying VoP until you've made enough $$$ to buy some tomes and grafts and even nonmasterwork items made of fancy materials(Serrenwood!!!). And don't forget that you can still 'buy' Magical Locations when you have VoP.

Mongoose87
2010-03-13, 01:13 AM
What if, instead of forcing you to give up all items and then granting you static bonuses, the bonuses scaled with how much wealth you've given to the needy?

Then, for high-wealth campaigns with lots of magic items, you'll be able to keep up, and if you're in a low-wealth campaign with little to no items, you won't be super-powerful for giving up 2 gold and a masterwork club.

I hereby endorse this idea.

Zexion
2010-03-13, 01:19 AM
Perhaps on an increasing basis?
Here's a hypothetical point chart:
{table]Points|Amount Donated
1|100
2|200
3|400
4|800
5|1500
6|2500
7|4000
8|6000
9|8200
10|10500
[/table]
etc, etc, etc

randomhero00
2010-03-13, 02:12 AM
From a balance standpoint I love the idea, but from a fluff/roleplay perspective I hate it...I can just hear an evangelist going "For just 3 easy payments of 299gp you too can acquire god's favor and gain many bonuses!"

Mongoose87
2010-03-13, 02:27 AM
Well, from a roleplaying perspective, "bonuses" aren't something your character knows about.

AgentPaper
2010-03-13, 08:56 AM
Hm, true. Perhaps it would work best if you just designed it in such a way that the DM could easily tweak it to match the wealth level of his campaign.

PinkysBrain
2010-03-13, 08:59 AM
So I don't know about you, but I've always loved the idea/fluff behind vow of poverty. Monks too for that matter. So how can we change it to make it viable/better?
A Martial Study bonus feat every 2 to 3 levels and a 3/4 initiator level per level progression instead of 1/2 if he doesn't use it for an existing martial adept class.

Optimystik
2010-03-13, 12:07 PM
Well, from a roleplaying perspective, "bonuses" aren't something your character knows about.

That depends. Knowledge (History) might let him know of ascetics that were capable of amazing feats. Knowledge (Religion) can provide him lore of asceticism straight from the horse's exarch's mouth.

He won't know the exact numbers obviously, but he can have a general idea of what ascetics are rumored to be capable of.