Should not actions of liberators provoke, uh, a world war?

[ghoul-n]

With goblinoids nation-state accepted by seventeen nations and all that. Presuming that Redcloak is telling the truth about it.

[Kish]

I would venture a guess that Gobbotopia's total number of defensive pacts with non-goblinoid nations is 0, and the number of non-goblinoid nations who would actually be distressed if Gobbotopia fell tomorrow, whether it was replaced by Azure City again or not, also 0.

...And that's all I can say without getting into real-world events.

[Kurald Galain]

It would likely provoke angry letters from numerous nations, yes. An actual world war strikes me as infeasible with the present tech level.

[TriForce]

im pretty sure the reactions of one of those nations recognizing gobbotopia, when they find out the azurites are back in control, would be something along the line of: oh your back..... so the gobbos are dead? ok, here have some tea and then get off my lawn!

[Tass]

At Kish and Triforce: Yes. Recognition is not liking, and certainly not a promise of defending.

A real world comparison would really be the easiest way of explaining this, but alas.

[Seonor]

I think this is more of a proxy war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_war). The only ones who really fight are the Azurites and the Goblins, the elves only provide a strike team thats probably not even part of the regular army.

[Zea mays]

Well, I presume that the former regime of Azure city was recognized by at least 17 sovereign nations.

One of those agreed to come to their defense and joined the actual military fray.
Eventually.

[ghoul-n]

Geomancer, that's my point. Those 17 that accepted Hobotopia were at least in neutral tension with azurites, I think. And, well... alliance of 17 city-states against other such alliance would be a full-scale war.
Kurald Galain, much more like messages via few Sending spells ;(
Tech level is fine btw, with Familicides, Titanium golems and such.

[Shale]

Recognition simply means that you accept the fact that a country isn't going anywhere. During the Cold War, the US recognized the USSR, but somehow I doubt they'd have jumped in to defend them in the event of an invasion, even if somehow they weren't the ones leading that invasion.

[Chaelos]

Recognition ≠ alliance/defensive agreement.

My guess is that the nations of the OOTS world "recognize" the new goblin "nation" for purposes of setting up trade relations with it only. I would be very surprised if any of these nations showed up to help the goblins (much less fight the elves on other fronts) unless they somehow thought they could gain new land or resources via a backstab of the goblins, and even then most of them are probably too far away to care.

[MReav]

With goblinoids nation-state accepted by seventeen nations and all that. Presuming that Redcloak is telling the truth about it.

Azure City was recognized as a major world player, but no one budged when it got conquered in under a day.

Then again... it got conquered in under a day.

[slayerx]

Recognition ≠ alliance/defensive agreement.

Exactly
Just because a nation recognizes another nation DOES NOT mean they like them
Hell i'd wager that a good number of those 17 nations only recognized Gobbotopia out of fear of being their next victims

All recognition is other nations agreeing that your nation exists. They respect your borders and regard you with the same level of respect they would any other nation... All it really does is build a sense of legitimacy to the new nation. But this does not at all mean they like you, will defend you from attack, or will even care when you're gone; hell they might declare war and attack you themselves.

[NerfTW]

This is veering so far into thread locking territory, but let's see if I can describe it without breaking rules.

The concept of a world war where everyone joins together on one side or the other is VERY recent. Typically, you just let other nations fight it out unless you had a stake in the outcome.

Recognition does not mean you would lend aid. It means that you give them the same rights as other nations. As in immunity for diplomats, allowing free passage, release of prisoners of war, and the ability to sign treaties. As opposed to being a bunch of bandits in the mountains who are considered kill on sight.

It seems far more likely that nobody cares who rules Azure city, as long as the ports stay open for trade.

[Graymayre]

The liberators probably stand a better chance at provoking the goblins' god than they do other nations.

But, if there was a rival to Azure city nearby, then perhaps they would wish to see it remain in its weaker gobbotopia form.

[BobTheDog]

The liberators probably stand a better chance at provoking the goblins' god than they do other nations.

But, if there was a rival to Azure city nearby, then perhaps they would wish to see it remain in its weaker gobbotopia form.

Exactly. I don't think anyone would defend Gobbotopia just "because they are a nation and deserve to exist". They would defend Gobbotopia if doing so would ultimately help themselves prosper (lack of a powerful trade rival is a good one). On the other hand, they would most likely claim they were helping the goblins "because they are a nation and deserve to exist".

[Scarlet Knight]

This is sword & sorcery fantasy...EVERYONE'S likely already at war with someone. And for the quiet lands, there's likely some hoarde heading toward them from somewhere soon.

[Kurald Galain]

Kurald Galain, much more like messages via few Sending spells ;(
Tech level is fine btw, with Familicides, Titanium golems and such.

One epic-level necromancer knows Familicide, and she is dead.

Most clerics don't have ranks in Knowledge: Chemistry, either.

[Porthos]

I haven't posted in this section of the board (barring a couple of neutralish threads) in a donkey's age, but what the hey.

To the OP, I have a simple question: Why would these nations go to war with Azure City?

No, really. Why?

Answers on a postcard, as the phrase goes.

[ghoul-n]

KuralGalain, thanks, cap -,-
Counter: fireball beats gunpowder.
Porthos, not with Azure City, but rather MIGHT with those who will aid them, if Gobbotopia will provide more benefit to former azurites neighbours than azurites themselves.

[Sholos]

Okay, could the actions of the resistance provoke a world war? Sure, it's in the realm of possibility. Should they? No, not realistically.

[hamishspence]

It's interesting to think about Azure City's relationship with its neighbours- as represented in War & XPs:

Tension, due to "violations of other nation's territory by members of the Lord's staff, over what are perceived as personal grudges".

When one thinks about it, a least one world war started over pretty minor grounds- but due to the network of alliances and enmities, it escalated.

[AsteriskAmp]

War costs resources and citizens, a nation is not likely to go to war unless provoked directly by another nation, and most nations won't intervene unless they see a possible net gain in doing so. Surrounding nations may try to take over territory during the struggle, but not directly try to invade, because doing so would cost resources and citizens and wouldn't provide a substantial gain over just quietly invading the surrounding lands.

[Porthos]

Porthos, not with Azure City, but rather MIGHT with those who will aid them, if Gobbotopia will provide more benefit to former azurites neighbours than azurites themselves.

My point is that Gobbotopia has no allies.

None.

Zippo.

Nadda.

Zilch.

They have no mutual aid treaties. They have no "understandings" with other countries. They have none of the things that would cause another group to come to their aid.

All they have is slips of paper that say, "OK. We recognize that you're the boss over those square miles of territory."

And that's it.

Sure, a few countries look to be angling for economic trade. But, really now.

So, again, since Gobbotopia has no allies, why would another country come to their aid to fight the elves and the Resistance?


Then one thinks about it, a least one world war started over pretty minor grounds- but due to the network of alliances and enmities, it escalated.

Yes, this is actually my point exactly. :smallsmile: If Gobbotopia had any network of alliances, then something might happen.

But they don't (as far as we know).

This might be more analogous to The Great Game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Game) or The Cold War. Except there aren't many instances where a Great Power was invaded by a new unrecognized threat, and then a resistance formed to kick the invaders out.

Maybe there's something in European or Chinese history that might be an analogue to this situation. But one doesn't come to mind immediately.

So, again, wake me up when Gobbotopia actually starts making allies. :smallwink:

[SPoD]

Cliffport already has a "trade war" with the elven nations. If they wanted to go to actual war with the elves and thought they could win, they wouldn't need an invasion of Gobbotopia to provoke them. They would just do it. Therefore, we can presume that Cliffport will not attack the elves over the issue of Gobbotopia. They may send in a few counter-spies, maybe some magical advisors--in the interest of hampering anything that would be good for the elves--but that's probably about all.

[Scarlet Knight]

Besides, we saw how the last set of Azure city's "allies" behaved when called to war....

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html

[taltamir]

With goblinoids nation-state accepted by seventeen nations and all that. Presuming that Redcloak is telling the truth about it.

recognition isn't "we will fight on your behalf"... that is alliance... and then its only in effect if you are allied with the side you think is going to win.

[Doug Lampert]

Recognition simply means that you accept the fact that a country isn't going anywhere. During the Cold War, the US recognized the USSR, but somehow I doubt they'd have jumped in to defend them in the event of an invasion, even if somehow they weren't the ones leading that invasion.

During WWII the USA still recognized the governments of Germany, Italy, and Japan. We'd recalled our ambassadors, but we did not withdraw recognition. We did not recognize the government of Vichy France, which is why we repeatedly invaded Vichy territory without bothering to declare war on them.

Declared wars are in fact almost ALWAYS between two contries that recognize each other. If you don't recognize the foe then just who are you declaring war on after all?

Note that the laws of war only actually fully APPLY in wars between recognized states! The ASSUMPTION is that you recognize the government that you are fighting. There are a few sections detailing when a resistance movement or rebellion can reasonably be treated as a combatant nation subject to and protected by the laws of war, but the default ASSUMPTION is that if you are at war with someone, then you recognize them.

For all we know the ELVES may well recognize the goblins, there'd be no inherent contradiction.


All recognition is other nations agreeing that your nation exists. They respect your borders and regard you with the same level of respect they would any other nation.

It doesn't even mean that. It really doesn't. The US government recognizes the government of Cuba and doesn't give them the respect they would other nations nor does it allow trade with them. But we do recognize them. Most countries do NOT recognize Tiawan, yet they do trade with Tiawan and don't invade them.

[snafu]

Except there aren't many instances where a Great Power was invaded by a new unrecognized threat, and then a resistance formed to kick the invaders out.

Maybe there's something in European or Chinese history that might be an analogue to this situation. But one doesn't come to mind immediately.


KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!

[veti]

This might be more analogous to The Great Game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Game) or The Cold War. Except there aren't many instances where a Great Power was invaded by a new unrecognized threat, and then a resistance formed to kick the invaders out.

Maybe there's something in European or Chinese history that might be an analogue to this situation. But one doesn't come to mind immediately.

The conquest of the Aztec empire by the conquistadores might qualify. Other nations sided initially with Cortes because they all hated the Aztecs, but several of them soon came to realise this had been a strategic blunder...

Still, it doesn't seem a very good parallel to Azure City.

[Komitadji]

The vast majority of people would prefer a good-aligned neighbour to an evil one. While it's entirely possible that the Azurites pissed off more people than just Redcloak and the goblin peoples, I just can't see nations rallying behind Gobbotopia to the extent that they would be willing to go to war.

[Kranden]

Being recognized as a country does not mean a defensive pact or alliance. It just means Hey ok you're a real country we wont attack you lets trade and stuff.

[Optimystik]

Gobbotopia's allies are highly unlikely to risk war with the elves to protect monstrous interests. All of the goblin state's alliances simply mean that their neighbors won't be attacking them.

[Snake-Aes]

Gobbotopia's allies are highly unlikely to risk war with the elves to protect monstrous interests. All of the goblin state's alliances simply mean that their neighbors won't be attacking them.

Actually, official recognition is required to declare war at the nation. Recognition basically means you can actualy have international politics with them, like pacts, alliances, wars, international law enforcements...

Based on what we know of oots world it just means that those nations won't attack them without warning, and they may have commercial interests with them.

[Optimystik]

Based on what we know of oots world it just means that those nations won't attack them without warning, and they may have commercial interests with them.

Yes, that's what I was saying... all you added was "without warning."

So the actions of elven insurgents won't really change much where Cliffport et al. are concerned. It's the goblins' problem.

[doodthedud]

With goblinoids nation-state accepted by seventeen nations and all that. Presuming that Redcloak is telling the truth about it.

I think this is more "Countries willing to trade/visit" rather than "Countries that will defend you"

[Pronounceable]

Tension, due to "violations of other nation's territory by members of the Lord's staff, over what are perceived as personal grudges".

Now I haven't read the book, but if other nations did view Azure City as a state that sends armed forces into other nations' lands for express purpose of exterminating some targets, it's no wonder no one rushed to their aid.

[NerfTW]

Now I haven't read the book, but if other nations did view Azure City as a state that sends armed forces into other nations' lands for express purpose of exterminating some targets, it's no wonder no one rushed to their aid.

The entire quote should really have been posted, or at least the context. It's from the Azure City Tourist Guide bonus material, under "International Relations":

International Relations: Azure City is careful not to align itself closely with any one state, for fear of being drawn into a conflict that is not in its best interest. While the city trades with many partners, it is always with the understanding that it is "just business." Because paladins on the Lord's staff have pursued many individuals into other countries, however, Azure City has recently developed a reputation for violating sovereign nations over what are perceived a "personal grudges".

The only exceptions to Azure City's lack of close allies are the Elven Lands, which have long been friends to the Azurites.

(Emphasis mine)

The last bit is probably due to Lirian's involvement with the Order of the Scribble. She may have been rather high up in the Elven leadership.

The sending troops into foreign nations has been mentioned several times in the strip, usually while arguing with Shojo. It's referring to the crusade to eliminate "threats to the gates" and the abduction of the Order of the Stick by Miko.

The "just business" part probably goes for the hobgoblins as well, as a long list of Azure City specific products are listed as trade goods, as well as the major port. As stated before this thread was raised from the dead, as long as trade is kept intact, other nations don't care who rules Azure City.

[Digitality]

I'd just say that these other nation's have acknowledge Gobotopia as a sovereign state. The concept of sovereignty isn't very clearly defined but *shrug* lol.

Pretty much it opens the doors for further diplomacy and negotiations.

[Doug Lampert]

Yes, that's what I was saying... all you added was "without warning."

So the actions of elven insurgents won't really change much where Cliffport et al. are concerned. It's the goblins' problem.

No it's not. You said alliances and not attack. As others have Repeatedly pointed out a Declaration of War REQUIRES recognition and we have no evidence at all of any alliances whatsoever.

The word "alliances" and "not attack" implies friendly relations. The word "recognise" does not, it applies quite well to the US attitude toward Japan when we dropped two A-bombs on them. Because we recognized them at that time, just like we recognized the Nazi regime throughout WWII and the USSR throughout the cold war.

Recognition is NOT an alliance, it does NOT imply that you will not attack, it does NOT imply that you will trade. It does NOT imply that you will send or accept ambassadors. It simply means that you admit that the other side is a government and subject to the laws of nations and the laws of war, and that's the ONLY thing it means.

Saying "alliances" and "not attack" when the word Redcloak used is Recognize is quite simply wrong.

[Optimystik]

No it's not. You said alliances and not attack. As others have Repeatedly pointed out a Declaration of War REQUIRES recognition and we have no evidence at all of any alliances whatsoever.

The word "alliances" and "not attack" implies friendly relations. The word "recognise" does not, it applies quite well to the US attitude toward Japan when we dropped two A-bombs on them. Because we recognized them at that time, just like we recognized the Nazi regime throughout WWII and the USSR throughout the cold war.

Recognition is NOT an alliance, it does NOT imply that you will not attack, it does NOT imply that you will trade. It does NOT imply that you will send or accept ambassadors. It simply means that you admit that the other side is a government and subject to the laws of nations and the laws of war, and that's the ONLY thing it means.

Saying "alliances" and "not attack" when the word Redcloak used is Recognize is quite simply wrong.

...Does any part of that rant invalidate my point that Gobbotopia can expect no assistance vs. the elves?

[Krade]

I see a lot of assumptions in a lot of posts that the OotS universe rules of engagement operate exactly the same as RL rules of engagement. Arguments based on assumptions shouldn't expect to be taken seriously.

By the way, I'm pretty sure RL rules of engagement are not forum kosher. Just sayin'.

[veti]

Now I haven't read the book, but if other nations did view Azure City as a state that sends armed forces into other nations' lands for express purpose of exterminating some targets, it's no wonder no one rushed to their aid.

I suspect the reasons no-one "rushed to their aid" was that they only had about 12 hours' notice before the attack - not even enough time to mobilise AC's own army properly, let alone get messages to allies - and after the attack, everyone knew Xykon was there.

Hinjo mentions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html) four other nations, not counting the elves, that "we thought of as our ally". It's possible that he's kidding himself and those "allies" never had any intention of helping AC if a power ever emerged that was strong enough to threaten it... but I don't think so.

Thinking about the other countries' point of view: AC may not have been the best of neighbours, but compared with a nation ruled by an epic-level lich sorceror, founded on the premise of racial supremacy for goblins and enslavement of humans, and set to double in population approximately every ten years... well, I know which I'd rather live next to.

[Dr.Epic]

With goblinoids nation-state accepted by seventeen nations and all that. Presuming that Redcloak is telling the truth about it.

Shouldn't the invasion of goblins provoked a world war based on your logic? Just because a nation is recognized by other countries doesn't mean they going to launch themselves into a war to defend it.

[Windup]

With goblinoids nation-state accepted by seventeen nations and all that. Presuming that Redcloak is telling the truth about it.

There is a vast difference between "we recognize you as a nation" and "we give a crap if you get conquered".

[Herald Alberich]

There is a vast difference between "we recognize you as a nation" and "we give a crap if you get conquered".

Of all the responses to the same question in this thread, I think you finally managed to sum it up in a simple and understandable way. Kudos.

[GreatEscape_13]

The concept of a world war where everyone joins together on one side or the other is VERY recent.

One could say that should a multi-theater war erupt, that would qualify as a world war of sorts. Especially with city-states (as DnD realms tend to be, with the OOTS realms following suit), much of the territory is arguably non-governed, so therefore could be battlegrounds for campaigns (destroying troops in transit, securing some magical or mundane resources needed for the war effort, etc.) even if the city state in question had not declared formal war.

Thus I agree that it need not have every single state to join in, tho I still would be willing to qualify as a "world" war of sorts.

Cheers.

[Doug Lampert]

...Does any part of that rant invalidate my point that Gobbotopia can expect no assistance vs. the elves?

No, it invalidates the point I actually responded to, and which was the ONLY point in the post I actually replied to. You said, "All you added was without warning". That's CLEARLY and completely untrue, he ALSO corrected your missuse of the word "alliance" and your claim that recognition means you won't be attacking.

Both your statement and usage were blatantly untrue. Recognition is REQUIRED for a declaration of war. And there are NO alliances.

If correcting someone else, try to get SOMETHING right.