Why didn't the black dragon mother just resurrect her son? [Archive]

Adonis1x23

2010-03-13, 02:28 PM

For those that don't want to read the entire thread, check out the update.

Original:

Question is the title. I know this is really, really old as far as the plot goes, but it just kind of popped up in my head.

It just doesn't make sense. She, obviously, was a powerful caster and I'm sure an elder black dragon could get her hands on enough diamonds.

Can you resurrect dragons? If you can, why didn't she bring back her son. For that matter, why didn't she raise her husband as well? Didn't she say he was killed by adventurers?

It just seems like there was a massive, obvious hole in her logic.

Update:

After having my original assertions fixed and built upon, this is the crux of the thread.

So just to clear things up:

* She found someone to sell/give her several scrolls of Soul Bind, a 9th level spell.
* Wish, also a 9th level spell, can used to bring back the dead. She would of needed two scrolls: one to create the body and one to bring him(them, whatever) back to life.
* This means she would not even need to find a 17th level cleric, so the arguments relating to the necessity of one is rendered moot.

At this point, I really think she did raise him and was just lying to V.

The Dark Fiddler

2010-03-13, 02:30 PM

Probably because Dragons cast Arcane Spells (well, most do).

Now, why didn't she hire somebody to resurrect him? No clue.

The Rose Dragon

2010-03-13, 02:30 PM

Dragons cast spells as sorcerers. Sorcerers cannot cast Raise Dead, Resurrection, True Resurrection or Reincarnation without the use of Wish.

hamishspence

2010-03-13, 02:32 PM

Adonis1x23

2010-03-13, 02:32 PM

She went to the oracle though! She could have asked him to locate a cleric-- because the oracle is just an expert i think--to resurrect her kid.

As far as monetary expenses go...she is a freaking black dragon sorcerer. I'm sure she could have "found" some diamonds/5K gp somehow.:smallwink:

Asta Kask

2010-03-13, 02:32 PM

She would have needed a 17th-level cleric. They are rare.

As for hiring one - her hoard is gone?

Oslecamo

2010-03-13, 02:34 PM

Without the body, you need True Resurrection, a 9th level spell. Mama dragon mentions the ashes having been dissolved in the swamp and there being nothing left.

Maybe there just aren't that many 17th+ level clerics out there to contact?

She could afford a super oracle and super scrolls of soul binding for her revenge plan.

And that's why Black dragons are evil kids. Find son dead? Spend all your resources in cruel revenge plan instead of trying to bring him back to life.

Asta Kask

2010-03-13, 02:34 PM

So why didn't she cast Wish? She must of had a decent CL, so she probably had access to it.

Wish can't cast True Resurrection.

hamishspence

2010-03-13, 02:35 PM

She might not have taken it as her sorcerer spell known.

Do we ever see her casting any other 9th level spells? She's an ancient black dragon with a few levels in sorcerer- but is this enough to conclude she has a CL of 18 or more? (Sorcerers need CL 18 to cast 9th level spells)

In theory, Wish could be used to recreate the body, which could then have ordinary Resurrection cast on it- but we don't know if she can even cast Wish.

Starbuck_II

2010-03-13, 02:37 PM

Question is the title. I know this is really, really old as far as the plot goes, but it just kind of popped up in my head.

It just doesn't make sense. She, obviously, was a powerful caster and I'm sure an elder black dragon could get her hands on enough diamonds.

Can you resurrect dragons? If you can, why didn't she bring back her son. For that matter, why didn't she raise her husband as well? Didn't she say he was killed by adventurers?

It just seems like there was a massive, obvious hole in her logic.

She'd need True Resurrection. Remember, the kid was dusted. Husband was probably killed by a death effect (can't use anything but True resurrection then) or disintegrated too (dust isn't a body part).

She can only use arcane magic (or specific divine spells chosen as Sorc known). Remember Dragons have low progression for spells. Even an Great Wyrm Black Dragon only gets 15th cast (Sorceror progression makes that 7th lv spells, they need 16 to get 8th lv).
A Black wyrm has only 13th caster Progression (6th lv spells).
An Ancient has only 11th Progression (5th lv spells).
A very old Dragon has 9th Progression (4th lv spells).

If Diamonds were so easy to acquire: wouldn't adventurers have alot more?

DeltaEmil

2010-03-13, 02:38 PM

Wish can only duplicate 6th-level cleric-spells (or anything else that is not a wizard/sorcerer-spell).

You can still try to wish to duplicate True Ressurection, but Wish has the tendency to corrupt the desired effect or make it only partially true.
Every effect that cannot be duplicated by a spell has the risk of being made "wrong".

Ancalagon

2010-03-13, 02:38 PM

She would have needed a 17th-level cleric. They are rare.

When the order thought about resurrecting Roy, Haley even found it possible there might be no 17th level clerics in the world.

hamishspence

2010-03-13, 02:41 PM

We know she can cast at least 1 6th level sorcerer spell:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html

But we don't know if she can cast 9th level spells.

Adonis1x23

2010-03-13, 02:44 PM

She could afford a super oracle and super scrolls of soul binding for her revenge plan.

Exactly my point!

hamishspence

2010-03-13, 02:47 PM

It didn't cost the Order much to hire the oracle, as far as we know.

DeltaEmil

2010-03-13, 02:49 PM

The oracle isn't that expensive. And soul bind can also be acquired as a sorceror/wizard spell, which where it a cleric scroll, she couldn't have used it.

And looking at the existence of Dorukan, Xykon or Vaarsuvius' master, there might be a lot more high-level arcane magic user than their divine counterpart.

Adonis1x23

2010-03-13, 02:52 PM

Shale

2010-03-13, 03:00 PM

Spells cast from a scroll have no material component and, with a caster level check, don't have to be of a spell level you have normal access to.

Adonis1x23

2010-03-13, 03:01 PM

I thought she used a scroll of Soul Bind, so wouldn't it be about the same price as a scroll of True Resurrection?

Edit: Wait, didn't she have a scroll for each soul she needed to bind? If so, her stunt would have cost more than if she had raised him.

Shale

2010-03-13, 03:03 PM

She never said she paid money for them. If an ancient evil dragon wants something, they can generally just take it.

Edit: Also, as mentioned, it was likely an availability issue, not a cost one. An Ancient Black Dragon can't duplicate True Resurrection with any spells on its list, and as far as we know there are no clerics in the OotS world high-level enough to cast it or scribe it on a scroll. The only option open to her would seem to be to find two scrolls of Wish, and that's far easier said than done.

Asta Kask

2010-03-13, 03:12 PM

She never said she paid money for them. If an ancient evil dragon wants something, they can generally just take it.

From someone capable of crafting scrolls with 17th-level spells? They tend to be powerful.

Yendor

2010-03-13, 03:17 PM

Soul Bind is a 9th level caster spell that requires "a black sapphire of at least 1,000 gp value for every Hit Die possessed by the creature whose soul is to be bound."

We're talking two elf children at kindergarten. They're lucky if they have one hit die between them.

Zevox

2010-03-13, 03:27 PM

Soul Bind is a 9th level caster spell that requires "a black sapphire of at least 1,000 gp value for every Hit Die possessed by the creature whose soul is to be bound."

So she had more than enough gp, and access to someone with higher level spells.

Maybe she did find a way to raise him, but just left that part out of her story?
She had a scroll of Soul Bind, meaning she had the arcane version of the spell (otherwise she couldn't use it). That means she either found someone, likely a merchant, in possession of such a scroll but who was unable to actually make them; or she found a wizard or sorcerer capable of actually making them. In neither case would she have access to someone capable of casting Resurrection-style spells because of her acquiring that scroll.

Yendor is also right to point the low HD of children, and V's mate is likely little better, being a baker rather than an adventurer. NPC-class characters tend not to level up much.

Plus, as others have pointed out, she was evil, so it's entirely possible that revenge was simply her first reaction to the events, rather than thinking about resurrection.

Zevox

hamishspence

2010-03-13, 03:34 PM

The phrase "I later found out that his very ashes had dissolved into the swamp" raises the possibility that she tried, and failed.

Still, we can't be sure either way.

FoE

2010-03-13, 03:41 PM

It didn't cost the Order much to hire the oracle, as far as we know.

And that's assuming the Oracle even charged the Ancient Black Dragon. Remember, he was granted his powers by Tiamat.

slayerx

2010-03-13, 04:14 PM

For the same reasons why Shojo was so afraid of being killed despite having easy access to raise dead; or why Kabuto never really thought about his targets use of "raise dead" to bring themselves back to life...

PLOT!
Ya... death becomes so tricky when you have methods for resurrection readily available
It's rarely mentioned why resurrection would not work... only case i can recall was celia
Haley sort of questioned the "true resurrection", but she wasn't sure and just rejected the option just to be safe and to make sure they didn't waste time

Granted, the Ancient black dragon atleast has the excuse of needing true resurrection to bring back her son... but i would have to question the idea that not a single 17th level cleric exists in the whole world (which the oracle could find), and would have very much preferred that the point have been raised; such as the dragon commenting as to why she could not get a true resurrection for her son...

Adonis1x23

2010-03-13, 04:16 PM

The cost of two scrolls of Soul Bind is probably greater than one casting of True Resurrection.

Obviously there are high level clerics in their world, Durkon and his order being a prime example.

It shouldn't have been that hard for the oracle to find, or even know, a high level cleric of a dragon god.

The more I think about it, it seems more and more like she did find a way to resurrect her son. Being evil, though, she still wanted to pursue revenge and could of just made up the entire story for dramatic effect.

Deca

2010-03-13, 04:21 PM

Shale

2010-03-13, 04:26 PM

Obviously there are high level clerics in their world, Durkon and his order being a prime example.

Durkon's been out adventuring and gaining levels for years and he's still far short of getting access to ninth level spells. What makes you think his old bosses are any better? Haley certainly doesn't, or she wouldn't have questioned the idea that there are any 17th-level clerics alive in the world at all.

Adonis1x23

2010-03-13, 04:27 PM

Another thought, didn't she want to bind V's children so that 1. She could keep them as a trophy, and 2. So they couldn't be resurrected after she destroyed their bodies?

So wouldn't this kind of imply that True Resurrection is available to those that have the means? Means that a high level wizard or dragon would find a way to have access to?

Morthis

2010-03-13, 04:30 PM

She'd need True Resurrection. Remember, the kid was dusted. Husband was probably killed by a death effect (can't use anything but True resurrection then) or disintegrated too (dust isn't a body part)

Was this rule changed from 3.0 to 3.5 or something? I've seen this mentioned several times now (death effects or disintegrate requires true resurrection), and yet the d20srd page clearly states resurrection (as in the level 7 spell) works perfectly fine on either.

Either way, wish does work. Wish can duplicate resurrection, and you can do 2 wishes in a row, one to create the body, one to resurrect. This is specifically mentioned under wish. Even if the ABD couldn't cast it herself, if someone was powerful enough to make those soul bind scrolls, they might have wish as well.

Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.

Toper

2010-03-13, 04:39 PM

i would have to question the idea that not a single 17th level cleric exists in the whole world

It shouldn't have been that hard for the oracle to find, or even know, a high level cleric of a dragon god.
You guys keep saying that, but there's no evidence to support your assertions, and clear textual support (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html) for the idea that such high-level clerics are essentially unheard of.

I mean, you're complaining that there's this hole in the plot when Rich's patch is right there in your face. It's 100% clear that clerics able to cast True Resurrection are extremely rare and/or extremely well-hidden; if they even exist, they don't go around selling their services to every wealthy grieving relative who asks. What more explanation could you want?

The Wish idea is more plausible, given the Soul Bind scrolls, but still far from trivial. In any case, mama dragon pretty clearly seemed to believe that she had no way of resurrecting her son, and that's what matters for the plot.

slayerx

2010-03-13, 04:39 PM

Durkon's been out adventuring and gaining levels for years and he's still far short of getting access to ninth level spells. What makes you think his old bosses are any better? Haley certainly doesn't, or she wouldn't have questioned the idea that there are any 17th-level clerics alive in the world at all.

High priests are typically higher level than the clerics below them... kinda like how V's master was supposedly powerful enough to take on the ancient black dragon... how high in level the high priest of thor would be is questionable though... but haley "questioning" the exsistance of such a cleric does not mean one does not exist, just that she doesn't know... and i would question how much Haley knows about clerics around the world

Kish

2010-03-13, 04:41 PM

So wait. You're saying that Durkon cannot possibly, ever in his life, gain enough levels to catch up with the high priest of the temple he used to belong to, despite the established fact that some people in OotS go adventuring because they gain levels a lot faster that way? What is wrong with this argument?

"There is at least one non-Redcloak level 17+ cleric in the OotS world" is speculation.

Smiling Knight

2010-03-13, 04:41 PM

Higher than when Durkon left, certainly, but after years of adventuring?

On the other hand, ninjas are always a higher level than their subordinates.

Ancalagon

2010-03-13, 04:41 PM

And looking at the existence of Dorukan, Xykon or Vaarsuvius' master, there might be a lot more high-level arcane magic user than their divine counterpart.

We have no evidence at all that Vaarsuvius' Master is actually any good at all. For all we really know he could be even lower than level 12 or something.

Orzel

2010-03-13, 04:43 PM

Dragons, as selfish hateful bastards, would rather avenge a death than spend their delicious gold on a cleric to rez someone. Even their own children. Especially black ones.

Part of being a dragon is to help no one and ask for no aid unless it benefits you a lot.

Ancalagon

2010-03-13, 04:47 PM

High priests are typically higher level than the clerics below them...

Well, like Ulraunt, Master of Candlekeep, who is level 7ish?

kinda like how V's master was supposedly powerful enough to take on the ancient black dragon...

If I ever saw a totally unreliable source, than it's that one.

how high in level the high priest of thor would be is questionable though...

Actually, as he does not seem to be an adventurer, I'd be surprised if he was level 10+.

but haley "questioning" the exsistance of such a cleric does not mean one does not exist, just that she doesn't know... and i would question how much Haley knows about clerics around the world

No, it does not proof anything. But it gives a really good estimation on what seems to be common. Note that the head of the most powerful thieves guild in the Thieves' City (TM) was level 18.
We at least learn that "high levels" are not common and there seems to be no known Good High Cleric of Something (TM) where everyone would know he's a good cleric.

I also want to address that "X has a Master, thus the Master must be more powerful than X" is a bad line of thought. If no pupil could be more powerful than their master, where do the new powerful masters come from? In that case, each generation must be x-1 than the previous one. Which does not make any sense at all.

Icewraith

2010-03-13, 04:50 PM

The best example we have of clerics of their respective deities are Redcloak and the High Priest of the 12 gods.

IIRC, the highest level spell we've seen Redcloak cast is Extended Summon Monster VII (8th level w/o dmm) in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html

The high priest of the 12 gods certainly never used implosion or anything similar, so clearly one does not have to have access to 9th level spells in order to be the chief cleric of ones' deity.

SavageWombat

2010-03-13, 04:57 PM

I also want to address that "X has a Master, thus the Master must be more powerful than X" is a bad line of thought. If no pupil could be more powerful than their master, where do the new powerful masters come from? In that case, each generation must be x-1 than the previous one. Which does not make any sense at all.

However, the OotS lives in a world where your personal nemesis earns levels just because you do; maybe there's a "powerful master" levelling bonus available too.

Yendor

2010-03-13, 04:57 PM

The cost of two scrolls of Soul Bind is probably greater than one casting of True Resurrection.

Nope. From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm) market price for a scroll of Soul Bind is 3,825 gp, True Resurrection is 28,825 gp because it includes the 25k worth of diamonds. For Soul Bind there's presumably also the cost of the gems, but as previously mentioned that's trivial.

Darakonis

2010-03-13, 05:11 PM

May I suggest a line of thought that seems to have been neglected...

As per the rules, a soul may choose to not be resurrected.

If you were sent to the afterlife, which would be paradise, would you want to return to a world were you get hunted by adventurers seeking to poke you with shiny metal objects and loot your scaly corpse?

If you read the fluff, most souls in D&D simply don't want to come back. And why would they? Adventurers are generally the only silly bunch who want to get back to the world to finish their unresolved business. Most people are happy to remain in the afterlife.

Even if Mother Dragon had the means to res her son/husband, what are the odds that they would want to return?

Peace,
-Darakonis

slayerx

2010-03-13, 05:35 PM

We have no evidence at all that Vaarsuvius' Master is actually any good at all. For all we really know he could be even lower than level 12 or something.

It was said that V's master was able to save V's family from an ancient black dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html)... If V's master was not powerful enough to do such V would have rejected suggestions to ask his master for help

Actually, as he does not seem to be an adventurer, I'd be surprised if he was level 10+.

The high priest in azure city did not seem like an adventurer either and he was able to duel with redcloak... he was atleast Durkon's level if not higher

We have to take into account that their are other ways to gain levels aside from adventuring... a big one being the power of plot and story as was the case with Crystal

No, it does not proof anything. But it gives a really good estimation on what seems to be common. Note that the head of the most powerful thieves guild in the Thieves' City (TM) was level 18.
We at least learn that "high levels" are not common and there seems to be no known Good High Cleric of Something (TM) where everyone would know he's a good cleric..
Whether or not high level are rare or common is irrelevant...
not common =/= non existent... and when it comes down to it mama dragon only needed ONE cleric

Adonis1x23

2010-03-13, 05:41 PM

Nope. From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm) market price for a scroll of Soul Bind is 3,825 gp, True Resurrection is 28,825 gp because it includes the 25k worth of diamonds. For Soul Bind there's presumably also the cost of the gems, but as previously mentioned that's trivial.

My mistake.

The Dark Fiddler

2010-03-13, 05:47 PM

Whether or not high level are rare or common is irrelevant...
not common =/= non existent... and when it comes down to it mama dragon only needed ONE cleric

Correction: One cleric willing to help her. Black Dragons are (usually) Evil, so that would have to be an Evil Cleric, or at least non-Good, and even then there's no guarantee that they'd help.

Oslecamo

2010-03-13, 06:00 PM

Even if Mother Dragon had the means to res her son/husband, what are the odds that they would want to return?

Being evil, they were probably in the 9 Hells or the Abyss. Not very pleasant places for most evil souls.

Altough it's possible that dragon souls get elite positions, with Tiamat apointing her children to special jobs (she lives in the 9 Hells after all).

Just to note that not all afterlifes are paradises. Unless you're Therkla and you realize your 6 Cha score means your dream pretty boys will never want to hang out with you, in wich case it's better to take chances with the 9 Hells and eventual reincarnation.

Da'Shain

2010-03-13, 06:02 PM

It was said that V's master was able to save V's family from an ancient black dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html)... If V's master was not powerful enough to do such V would have rejected suggestions to ask his master for helpAll they said was that he might be able to save V's family (actually they said "intercede against the dragon", but basically the same thing). He could do this just as easily were he capable of teleporting or planeshifting, or simply by keeping the dragon occupied until some sort of Elven defense arrives. The page showing Aarindarius killing the dragon is simply the simplest way to show this and likely what V himself is thinking; it doesn't mean that her master is capable of doing so.

The high priest in azure city did not seem like an adventurer either and he was able to duel with redcloak... he was atleast Durkon's level if not higherThe most we know about him is that he was at least 11th level, seeing as Hold monster was the highest level spell we saw him cast (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) as his domain spell, and it was a 6th level spell. (Why they both led off with low level spells is beyond me, but they did.) Anyway, we didn't see him bust out a 7th level spell, so it's unlikely he was 13th level.

We have to take into account that their are other ways to gain levels aside from adventuring... a big one being the power of plot and story as was the case with CrystalIt's possible, certainly; it's just much less likely than them being an adventurer.

Whether or not high level are rare or common is irrelevant...
not common =/= non existent... and when it comes down to it mama dragon only needed ONE clericONE cleric who was willing to resurrect a black dragon, you mean. Which is an even smaller list than just a cleric capable of performing the resurrection in the first place. And it's unlikely the mama dragon would be able to force such a high level character to do much, unless the character has no similarly leveled companions, or even some a few levels lower. Which again makes it even less likely.

Kish

2010-03-13, 06:25 PM

It was said that V's master was able to save V's family from an ancient black dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html)...

Passive voice alert. Who said that?

(If you look closely, you'll see that no one in the comic actually said "Aarindarius is powerful enough to defeat the ancient black dragon"--though the three fiends implied it. But whether it's true isn't important to them, only whether Vaarsuvius would believe it.)

If V's master was not powerful enough to do such V would have rejected suggestions to ask his master for help

The implied equivalency between "what Vaarsuvius is prepared to believe after years away from his/her old master" and "absolute reality" aside, V did reject the suggestion to ask his/her master for help, remember?

The high priest in azure city [...] was atleast Durkon's level if not higher

Love to know how you'd support that.

Whether or not high level are rare or common is irrelevant...
not common =/= non existent... and when it comes down to it mama dragon only needed ONE cleric
Whether there are any seventeenth level clerics in the world is relevant, though, and very much not established.

Also, you're presuming that if there's a single level 17 cleric in the world, she could find that cleric and persuade him/her to cast whatever spells she wanted. That's a huge assumption. ("Yes, there is a grand total of one seventeeth level cleric in the world. She's a cleric of Marduk.")

slayerx

2010-03-13, 06:29 PM

All they said was that he might be able to save V's family (actually they said "intercede against the dragon", but basically the same thing). He could do this just as easily were he capable of teleporting or planeshifting, or simply by keeping the dragon occupied until some sort of Elven defense arrives. The page showing Aarindarius killing the dragon is simply the simplest way to show this and likely what V himself is thinking; it doesn't mean that her master is capable of doing so.

(If you look closely, you'll see that no one in the comic actually said "Aarindarius is powerful enough to defeat the ancient black dragon"--though the three fiends implied it. But whether it's true isn't important to them, only whether Vaarsuvius would believe it.)
If Aarindarius was not able to kill the black dragon then V would not have imagined him killing the dragon or believe it were possible... V would be the most knowledgeable source on his master's level

Not to mention that if he was not high level he would probably have trouble getting near to V's family to teleport them out while an ancient black dragon is trying to kill him... and i would question how long he could keep the black dragon busy considering how poorly V faired... he'd be lucky to last a few minutes if he was less than V's level

The most we know about him is that he was at least 11th level, seeing as Hold monster was the highest level spell we saw him cast (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) as his domain spell, and it was a 6th level spell. (Why they both led off with low level spells is beyond me, but they did.) Anyway, we didn't see him bust out a 7th level spell, so it's unlikely he was 13th level.

Love to know how you'd support that.

Resurrection (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html)
not to mention to duel well against another high level caster requires being high level yourself to help make the saving throws

ONE cleric who was willing to resurrect a black dragon, you mean. Which is an even smaller list than just a cleric capable of performing the resurrection in the first place. And it's unlikely the mama dragon would be able to force such a high level character to do much, unless the character has no similarly leveled companions, or even some a few levels lower. Which again makes it even less likely.

Actually thus far most high level characters we have seen have worked alone and most of their minions were more like mid-level... besides, the black dragon could have always looked for other dragons to help her if she really needed the extra muscle to force them... considering how broken up she is i think she would be willing to risk it... much better than leaving the son dead and just being settled with revenge

Though really i think the bigger point is the fact that she didn't even TRY

The implied equivalency between "what Vaarsuvius is prepared to believe after years away from his/her old master" and "absolute reality" aside, V did reject the suggestion to ask his/her master for help, remember?
not being powerful enough was NOT the reason, nor even considered
she rejected it for the wrong reasons, less we forget

waterpenguin43

2010-03-13, 06:48 PM

She was an ancient Black Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm). She'd need 7 more sorcerer levels to be able to cast 9th level spells (assuming they stack at all), and then she'd have around as much power as Xykon. She never casted any ninth level spells (or spells above level 7, in fact.) so I doubt she would have been able to access Wish. And as for affording the oracle or another cleric, the oracle said himself that he was "A blessing from [Tiamat] their goddess." So I think that he would give her the answer for free. Also, how many 17th level clerics are their in the OotS world and who would be willing to help? (Redcloak wouldn't, he's got problems of his own to deal with and the XP cost is high.)

Kish

2010-03-13, 06:51 PM

If Aarindarius was not able to kill the black dragon then V would not have imagined him killing the dragon or believe it were possible... V would be the most knowledgeable source on his master's level

Years after parting company with Aarindarius? If that's true, that requires Vaarsuvius to know that Aarindarius hasn't gained any levels since they parted. And your argument that nonadventurers gain levels at anything close to the same level adventurers do annihilates itself.

Not to mention that if he was not high level he would probably have trouble getting near to V's family to teleport them out while an ancient black dragon is trying to kill him... and i would question how long he could keep the black dragon busy considering how poorly V faired... he'd be lucky to last a few minutes if he was less than V's level

Again, whether Aarindarius could have fought the ancient black dragon is unimportant. All that matters, is that extremely-trance-deprived, still-an-apprentice-when-s/he-last-saw-him Vaarsuvius didn't question the fiends' implication that he could do so, along with not questioning the fiends' claim that Qarr would suicidally carry his/her head to the fleet and not questioning the fiends' claim that Durkon would immediately resurrect him/her and immediately cast Sending to Aarindarius bypassing the ten-minute-each casting time of both spells...

Starbuck_II

2010-03-13, 06:57 PM

Was this rule changed from 3.0 to 3.5 or something? I've seen this mentioned several times now (death effects or disintegrate requires true resurrection), and yet the d20srd page clearly states resurrection (as in the level 7 spell) works perfectly fine on either.

Wow, I never noticed ashes count as a body part for Resurrection.

slayerx

2010-03-13, 07:12 PM

Years after parting company with Aarindarius? If that's true, that requires Vaarsuvius to know that Aarindarius hasn't gained any levels since they parted.

V is INTELLIGENT... he would not jump to conclusions on his master's level, if he was not powerful enough to take on an ancient black dragon when V left, then V would not jump to the conclusion that he had gained enough levels since then; not when the decision might mean his family's life

really if V was not certain of his master's abilities then he probably would have rasied the question himself... particularly since contacting his master was one of the first ideas he came up with before the fiend's showed up

And your argument that nonadventurers gain levels at anything close to the same level adventurers do annihilates itself.
not entirely... if true then that means V's master was indeed powerful enough; if false then it means V's master was powerful enough even years ago... for V's sake it doesn't matter... But again, it hardly matters at all in this regard as, again, V would not jump to the conclusion that his master had gained a significant number of levels since he left... especially since he's not genre savvy

Again, whether Aarindarius could have fought the ancient black dragon is unimportant. All that matters, is that extremely-trance-deprived, still-an-apprentice-when-s/he-last-saw-him Vaarsuvius didn't question the fiends' implication that he could do so, along with not questioning the fiends' claim that Qarr would suicidally carry his/her head to the fleet and not questioning the fiends' claim that Durkon would immediately resurrect him/her and immediately cast Sending to Aarindarius bypassing the ten-minute-each casting time of both spells...

Qarr is a being a pure Lawful Evil, which means he will carry out his end of a deal... furtharmore when you kill a fiend, all that happens is that they get sent back to the lower planes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html)... so suicidal missions is really not much of a problem for Qarr

I see no reason why Durkon would NOT resurrect and cast a sending for V...
as for bybassing the 10 minute casting on the resurrection; well that's V's apparent lack of knowledge on divine magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html)... he didn't know and thus didn't think to ask

Da'Shain

2010-03-13, 07:27 PM

V is INTELLIGENT... he would not jump to conclusions on his master's level, if he was not powerful enough to take on an ancient black dragon when V left, then V would not jump to the conclusion that he had gained enough levels since then; not when the decision might mean his family's lifeThe fact that V is intelligent does not mean he can't make mistakes, as proven by that entire arc. V jumped to the conclusion that soldiers' deaths were his fault, V jumped to the conclusion that not being able to contact his allies was his fault, V jumped to the conclusion that his other allies were incapable of helping him in any way, and V jumped to the conclusion that leaping in to face the most powerful sorcerous lich in the world and his associates without any preparation was a good idea.

V makes mistakes. Just as many as other people. The fact that he should intellectually know that Aarindarius is unlikely to be able to one-shot an ancient dragon with sorceror levels (even if he IS epic, really) does not mean it wasn't the first thought to pass through his mind when the fiends said "your master could intercede."

Hobs

2010-03-13, 07:54 PM

The question that always bugged me was how the genocide spell would reduce the chance of retribution. Sure V killed everyone the dragon's related to and everyone those dragons are related to, but did not kill everyone those dragons are related so. It seems like he just pissed off exponentially more dragons who want revenge against his family.

slayerx

2010-03-13, 07:57 PM

The fact that V is intelligent does not mean he can't make mistakes, as proven by that entire arc. V jumped to the conclusion that soldiers' deaths were his fault, V jumped to the conclusion that not being able to contact his allies was his fault, V jumped to the conclusion that his other allies were incapable of helping him in any way, and V jumped to the conclusion that leaping in to face the most powerful sorcerous lich in the world and his associates without any preparation was a good idea.

Except for attakcing Xykon, V didn't "jump to those conclusions", he had months to think about them and came to those conclusions... and in a way his conclusions made a lot of sense and were understandable

V makes mistakes. Just as many as other people. The fact that he should intellectually know that Aarindarius is unlikely to be able to one-shot an ancient dragon with sorceror levels (even if he IS epic, really) does not mean it wasn't the first thought to pass through his mind when the fiends said "your master could intercede."
Contacting his master and asking him for help was the first thing that came to his mind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html)... long before the fiends brought it up. He thought right from the start that his master would be able to handle this problem

Kish

2010-03-13, 08:39 PM

The question that always bugged me was how the genocide spell would reduce the chance of retribution.
Of course, it wouldn't. Reducing the chance of retribution was never the point; vengeance was.

Zevox

2010-03-13, 10:03 PM

"There is at least one non-Redcloak level 17+ cleric in the OotS world" is speculation.
You can even strike the "non-Redcloak" part. The information we have on him puts his minimum level at only 15 (needed to cast 8th-level spells and do 15d6 damage with a Wall of Blades). We've never seen him cast a 9th-level spell or do anything else requiring level 17+, so even he may not be that powerful.

Zevox

Starbuck_II

2010-03-13, 10:37 PM

Qarr is a being a pure Lawful Evil, which means he will carry out his end of a deal... furtharmore when you kill a fiend, all that happens is that they get sent back to the lower planes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html)... so suicidal missions is really not much of a problem for Qarr

I see no reason why Durkon would NOT resurrect and cast a sending for V...
as for bybassing the 10 minute casting on the resurrection; well that's V's apparent lack of knowledge on divine magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html)... he didn't know and thus didn't think to ask

Haley is wrong. She admits that she is'nt sure.
Called Creatures are dead period.
Even if they aren't killed, they are demoted (depends on source, most say dead others say demoted): he would become a Lemure or something (yes demoted in form).
Not that bad (major decrease in power) compared to alternative but ouch.

Querzis

2010-03-13, 11:06 PM

You dont seem to realize that the high-priest of the twelves gods is actually the proof that there is most likely no 17 level cleric in the entire world Slayerx. He was the high priest of the twelves gods, in other words, the high priest of an entire freaking pantheon, not just one god like the high-priest of Thor, and he still obviously wasnt level 17. The only reason why Redcloak even got to this level is because he hang out with Xykon! If there is any level 17 cleric in the world then they are obviously not high-priest of anything, they are adventurers. And no black dragon is dumb enough to fight a party of level 17 adventurers. Once again, even we assume there is level 17cleric somewhere in the world (which is just speculation) its even less likely that the black dragon could force a level 17 cleric to do anything.

By the way, as far as I'm concerned, it make perfect sense that there is more high-level arcane caster then high-level cleric just because the cleric actually have to do what his god ask him to do. And what your god ask you to do is not always the best thing for your life expectancy.

factotum

2010-03-14, 01:51 AM

Contacting his master and asking him for help was the first thing that came to his mind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html)... long before the fiends brought it up. He thought right from the start that his master would be able to handle this problem

But again you seem to be missing the point: not only was V trance-deprived to such an extent that he couldn't aim his spells properly anymore (note that he missed the ABD with a Dimensional Anchor), but he was also frustrated and scared for his family. There's absolutely no way he was thinking clearly--his thought to contact his master was probably in desperation (e.g. "Who's the most powerful guy I know who might help me out here?"). I wouldn't be surprised if the fiends chose Aarindarius in their later scenario purely because V had already been thinking along those lines and would thus accept it more easily!

The "thought scene" of Aarindarius taking out the ABD with a single shot, while reading a book, is clearly nonsense. Spliced-V, who had more arcane power than any mortal caster in the history of the multiverse, didn't manage to one-shot the creature, so Aarindarius couldn't have done it either, no matter how powerful he was. That alone shows how unreliable that scene is.

Milandros

2010-03-14, 07:06 AM

Why do people think that evil gods are just as willing to grant healing and ressurection as good gods? Maybe she could find an appropriate evil 17-th level cleric; and then just gets a "Your son was weak, and is of no further use in this world to Tiamat. She refuses to release him."

Evil, remember?

factotum

2010-03-14, 10:56 AM

Evil gods grant the spells to their clerics that they ask for, just like the good ones do. Wouldn't be much point being a cleric otherwise!

SteveMB

2010-03-14, 12:19 PM

For the same reasons why Shojo was so afraid of being killed despite having easy access to raise dead; or why Kabuto never really thought about his targets use of "raise dead" to bring themselves back to life...

You'd think that assassins in a world where such magic is available would take countermeasures if their employer wanted the target permanently dead....

Shale

2010-03-14, 12:28 PM

Technically they are more reluctant to grant healing magic - that's why evil clerics have to specifically prepare those spells instead of casting them spontaneously.

SteveMB

2010-03-14, 12:29 PM

May I suggest a line of thought that seems to have been neglected...

As per the rules, a soul may choose to not be resurrected.

If you were sent to the afterlife, which would be paradise, would you want to return to a world were you get hunted by adventurers seeking to poke you with shiny metal objects and loot your scaly corpse?

That probably depends a lot on the details of the evil afterlife he ends up in. If it's a realm of constant torment, he'd want back. If it involves a tavern where he can meet Miss October 1183 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html), not so much.

Adonis1x23

2010-03-14, 01:47 PM

Asta Kask

2010-03-14, 01:50 PM

Well if she did he's dead now.

Sanguine

2010-03-14, 01:51 PM

Zevox

2010-03-14, 02:48 PM

So just to clear things up:

She found someone to sell/give her several scrolls of Soul Bind, a 9th level spell.

Wish, also a 9th level spell, can used to bring back the dead. She would of needed two scrolls: one to create the body and one to bring him(them, whatever) back to life.

This means she would not even need to find a 17th level cleric, so the arguments relating to the necessity of one is rendered moot.

Someone capable of selling/giving her scrolls of Soul Bind is not necessarily capable of selling/giving her scrolls of Wish. Any non-caster is unlikely to posses such potent, expensive scrolls (the single most potent, expensive, and thereby rarest scroll type in existence), even if they have Soul Bind. Sorcerers have such a limited repertoire of spells that it would be completely unsurprising if even one high enough level to know Wish had not selected it as one of his scant few spells of that level. And even Wizards, the best chance you'd have at acquiring such scrolls, would have to have acquired it for their spellbook from somewhere, probably not the easiest feat given the rarity of characters that high-level.
If she bought the scrolls, she could easily have lacked the funds to purchase wish scrolls, which are obscenely expensive, even if she had access to someone willing to sell them to her.

Yeah, sorry, but you're trying to argue here that it's logical that the ABD could easily acquire not just one, but two scrolls of the most powerful and expensive non-epic arcane spell in existence. That's not exactly a strong argument.

Zevox

Yendor

2010-03-14, 02:53 PM

I would like top point out Wish scrolls are obscenely more expensive then Soul Bind(as someone else already pointed out) and you could easily buy five scrolls of Soul Bind for the cost of a single Wish Scroll so the fact she was planning on Soul Binding V's family does not prove she was capable of bringing her son back.

Specifically, Wish costs as much as True Resurrection, and thus would be twice as expensive to do it that way.

Zea mays

2010-03-14, 03:15 PM

Trixie

2010-03-14, 07:42 PM

Specifically, Wish costs as much as True Resurrection, and thus would be twice as expensive to do it that way.

Only someone ignoring all costs bound to the spell can say so. Wish doesn't replicate expensive material components.

Orzel

2010-03-14, 08:00 PM

You all are missing the obvious.

Dragons don't help people when it costs them unless it's for vengeance ore self preservation.

A mama dragon won't raise her dead son, because there's a good chance she'll have to fight him later anyway.
The LAST thing a dragon, good or evil, does is help another dragon.

But Revenge? Oh boy, they love killing who they hate.

Shale

2010-03-14, 08:08 PM

Yendor

2010-03-14, 08:11 PM

Only someone ignoring all costs bound to the spell can say so. Wish doesn't replicate expensive material components.

Only if (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) by "expensive" you mean "costing more than 10,000 gp".

Material Component

When a wish duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 10,000 gp, you must provide that component.

Shale

2010-03-14, 08:22 PM

True Resurrection requires a diamond valued at 25,000 gp or more. So yes, resurrection by Wish scrolls is triple the cost of a single True Resurrection as cast by a cleric.

Orzel

2010-03-14, 08:30 PM

So the mother might be driven damn near crazy with grief for her son - who she certainly seemed to love like any other mother would love her son - and might even abandon her home plane forever in the name of revenge for her son, and might have been happy to be dead as long as it meant joining her family in the afterlife....but she wouldn't care enough to revive him if she could?

Okay.

She wouldn't be happy to see him die but with dragons revenge comes first. Reviving her son would happen after she does some accounting on her funds, evulated her son's worthiness to come back, and see which contacts cost the least.

What did Tiamat do when V killed all those dragons? Did she revive any of them. She wanted revenge killings. Revenge and Anger are a dragon's first thoughts. Helping loved one's is a thought but it ain't on the top of the list.

Yendor

2010-03-14, 08:30 PM

True Resurrection requires a diamond valued at 25,000 gp or more. So yes, resurrection by Wish scrolls is triple the cost of a single True Resurrection as cast by a cleric.

Wish doesn't do True Resurrection, it does an ordinary Resurrection, which costs 10,000 gp. It takes another Wish to get a body to resurrect if the original has been destroyed.

So basically we have twice the cost, but a worse result because Junior's down a level.

1337 b4k4

2010-03-14, 09:01 PM

The answer is simple. She wanted V to suffer. It's clear she's well aware of resurrection spells, hence the soul binds; so it is clear that he primary goal at first is to make V suffer. Her son is dead, presumably was for a while before she returned, I don't think he waiting a little longer would make much of a difference. Hence she will take care of V first, and then resurrect her son.

Sholos

2010-03-15, 12:09 AM

She wouldn't be happy to see him die but with dragons revenge comes first. Reviving her son would happen after she does some accounting on her funds, evulated her son's worthiness to come back, and see which contacts cost the least.

What did Tiamat do when V killed all those dragons? Did she revive any of them. She wanted revenge killings. Revenge and Anger are a dragon's first thoughts. Helping loved one's is a thought but it ain't on the top of the list.

I thought it was pretty obvious that Mama dragon would have gotten her son raised if it had been feasible, hence her anger at the ashes sinking into the swamp.

Also, I think you're making an unfair generalization about dragons. Especially the good ones, who I'd expect to care more about getting the relative back and also to be willing to help out other dragons.

Nimrod's Son

2010-03-15, 12:35 AM

At this point, I really think she did raise him and was just lying to V.
All available evidence, both in-comic and in this thread, says you're wrong. But feel free to keep saying that all the same. :smallsigh:

DaveMcW

2010-03-18, 04:16 PM

Mama Dragon likely bought her scrolls of soul bind from Xykon, and the only level 9 scrolls he can create are Soul Bind, Meteor Swarm, and Energy Drain.

shadowkiller

2010-03-18, 05:03 PM

Mama Dragon likely bought her scrolls of soul bind from Xykon, and the only level 9 scrolls he can create are Soul Bind, Meteor Swarm, and Energy Drain.

I don't think Xykon would sell any scrolls to anyone, I think he would give anyone who came to him (especially a dragon) two options, work for me as a living being or work for me as a zombie. He doesn't remember who the order of the stick is, much less V.

factotum

2010-03-18, 05:04 PM

Mama Dragon likely bought her scrolls of soul bind from Xykon, and the only level 9 scrolls he can create are Soul Bind, Meteor Swarm, and Energy Drain.

Er, what? There isn't the slightest shred of evidence that Mama Dragon and Xykon have had anything to do with each other.

Ancalagon

2010-03-18, 05:17 PM

Mama Dragon likely bought her scrolls of soul bind from Xykon...

He has a shop for magic items and scrolls?

Optimystik

2010-03-18, 06:22 PM

She could afford a super oracle and super scrolls of soul binding for her revenge plan.

And that's why Black dragons are evil kids. Find son dead? Spend all your resources in cruel revenge plan instead of trying to bring him back to life.

That she is evil goes without saying. But the existence of Soul Bind scrolls does not prove that TR scrolls or Wish scrolls are also available in OotSland.

martinkou

2010-03-19, 02:37 AM

The proper way to do evil as an ancient black dragon in regard to having a dead son and your treasure horde gone is...

Loot everything within the 10 mile radius from home.
Now that you have the resources, resurrect son.
Buy Soul Bind scrolls, and a TeeVo for video recording.
DON'T tell Vaarsuvius what's going to happen.
Tell son to tune TeeVo on V's family and start recording.
Attack V's family, bind their souls.
Return home, get the video record, send a copy to V.
Move to another realm with son.

So, while the ancient black dragon is evil - she's only the Diet Coke of evil, just 1 calorie, not evil enough.

doodthedud

2010-03-19, 02:43 AM

Xerxus

2010-03-19, 04:53 AM

Ancalagon

2010-03-19, 05:57 AM

I doubt you get wish scrolls in the "Olde Magic Shoppe" around the corner...

Sholos

2010-03-19, 07:14 AM

Querzis

2010-03-19, 07:16 AM

I doubt you get wish scrolls in the "Olde Magic Shoppe" around the corner...

Even if you could wish is way too unreliable, that spell is just way too likely to backfire. Beside, except for adventurers who actually really have stuff to do and monsters to kill before they really die, most people just wont come back if someone try to resurect them. After all, the black dragon son and mate would probably rather just wait for her in the afterlife instead of going back to the mortal world just to be eventually killed again.

Optimystik

2010-03-19, 07:33 AM

If she had one wish scroll she could bring back his body, yes? So if she had a cleric with raise dead on hand she could rez him, no? And the cost of one wish scroll is within range of that of the soul bind scrolls, at least if she got the money by chaotic means. This includes the diamond required. So its a small plot hole. Big deal.

News flash - not all settings have a "Magic Mart" where you can buy scrolls of Wish and True Resurrection simply because you can afford the price listed in the DMG.

Ancalagon

2010-03-19, 07:36 AM

Even if you could wish is way too unreliable, that spell is just way too likely to backfire.

I think it'll do it's trick in a case like this. I do not see a problem with a somewhat careful wording.

We should never forget what the unreliability of "wish" is about: it's a failsafe for DMs that can be used to restrict this super-powerful spell to prevent abuse.
As I see it, wish is a "joker card" that were handed by the authors of the system to game groups. "Whatever you need, here it is. And dear DM, if you have players who try to abuse it... feel free to let it backfire".
The unreliability is also there to prevent players from using "wish" as "solve the plot-power".

I really fail to see why it should not work perfectly in a case like this to simply bring back a corpse so you can use a resurrection-spell.

Optimystik

2010-03-19, 08:15 AM

I really fail to see why it should not work perfectly in a case like this to simply bring back a corpse so you can use a resurrection-spell.

It absolutely works in that instance - using Wish/Miracle to reconstruct bodies is an explicit function of the spell according to Tome of Magic.

The question is whether she could get it; there don't seem to be any 9th-level spellcasters in the world besides Xykon and the now-deceased Scribble.

(Maybe Aarindarius, but he's unlikely to help a dragon either.)

Ancalagon

2010-03-19, 08:28 AM

The question is whether she could get it; there don't seem to be any 9th-level spellcasters in the world besides Xykon and the now-deceased Scribble.

Yes, that's along the lines of what I keep writing in this thread.

OotS has it quite established that high level characters (15+) are pretty rare and even powerful characters (12+) are not common.
The highest chars in one of the biggest cities on the continent are level 12ish (Hinjo) to level 14ish (Miko) characters and some (Haley) even question if there is a single level 17+ cleric in the world (apart from Redcloak, who is an antagonist).

You simply cannot buy level 8 or level 9 spells in the shop.

factotum

2010-03-19, 08:36 AM

Of course, that just begs the question of where she got the Soul Bind scrolls from, considering that's also a 9th-level spell.

Ancalagon

2010-03-19, 08:39 AM

Maybe she had one in her hoard? Found by accident ages ago?

We cannot clear that up but I assume it wasn't just bought around the corner. But it has the interesting consequence that APPARENTLY vengeance was more important to her than bringing back (can you even bring back dragons?) her son from the dead.

She's as evil as her race indicates, it seems. But it still opens that interesting question.

But to put the other one in plain sight again: Can dragons be resurrected as the "player races" can? They apparently have an afterlife but does that mean you can bring them back?

derfenrirwolv

2010-03-19, 08:41 AM

Also remember that all wizards have the scribe scroll feat, so any wizard that gets to 17th level can cut you a scroll. Even if there is a 17th level cleric they may or may not have scribe scroll to either hand someone, or to preserve a portion of their spell casting ability through the ages.

Ancalagon

2010-03-19, 08:48 AM

Also remember that all wizards have the scribe scroll feat, so any wizard that gets to 17th level can cut you a scroll.

Yes, but the thing in question is if there even are "many" of such characters. There might be, but they are not so common that you can expect to find one willing to hand you the scroll you want in the next bigger city.

Even if there is a 17th level cleric they may or may not have scribe scroll to either hand someone, or to preserve a portion of their spell casting ability through the ages.

Am I too stupid at the moment to understand this or do you have to reformulate? ;)

Closak

2010-03-19, 08:52 AM

Maybe she got it from Jack?

You see, Jack has everything, poisons, scrolls, wands, rope, explosives, nukes, time machines, guns, string, death-in-a-box, scythes, swords, maces, hammers, pets, you name it Jack has it, even if it makes no sense for Jack to have it.
And Jack has it all stuffed in a little Bag Of Infinite Holding Capacity.
Except for those one of a kind Major Artifacts, for some reason Jack never has those :smallannoyed:

However, because Jack is basically Batman with infinite resources trying to rob Jack would be a very bad idea, but Jack is also very greedy and will take bribes, so it would still be easy to get something from Jack.
The type of bribe does not matter really, Jack will take anything, even information.

Yes, i just brought up a running gag that i have some degree of involvement in.

Mehehe, the thread is dead, mission accomplished :smallcool:

Optimystik

2010-03-19, 09:50 AM

Of course, that just begs the question of where she got the Soul Bind scrolls from, considering that's also a 9th-level spell.

And we've seen Meteor Swarm and Time Stop too. So what? None of those revive people.

Rich can choose which spells get into OotS, and which ones don't. DMs are quite free to do that. And given the story-wrecking power of both Wish and TR, doing so is quite understandable for him.

Ancalagon

2010-03-19, 09:58 AM

Rich can choose which spells get into OotS, and which ones don't. DMs are quite free to do that. And given the story-wrecking power of both Wish and TR, doing so is quite understandable for him.

It's not even that we have to rely on the "bad DM blocking stuff". So far, only level 9 arcane spells have been show, but TR is divine.

So the only spell that the "mean DM" has blocked (as is the assumeption) is wish. Which is quite understandable. Xykon was just reckless enough to "just play around with it".

We do not know if TR is forbidden in this world or not. We still have the basic problem that we do not know if there is even anyone who COULD cast level 9 cleric spells (and this does not even covers "creates and gives X a scroll with spell Y").

Optimystik

2010-03-19, 10:01 AM

It's not even that we have to rely on the "bad DM blocking stuff". So far, only level 9 arcane spells have been show, but TR is divine.

Nitpick - we have seen a 9th-level divine from Lirian. :smallsmile:
(Granted, it is also arcane.)

For 9th-level cleric spells, Redcloak is very close, and the High Priest of the 12 fought on par with him (for a while, at least.) I wonder if all the HPs of [deity] are very high level?

Ancalagon

2010-03-19, 10:07 AM

Nitpick - we have seen a 9th-level divine from Lirian. :smallsmile:
(Granted, it is also arcane.)

Agreed, but it also was cast by one of the established epic chars that are also established dead (or... something).

For 9th-level cleric spells, Redcloak is very close, and the High Priest of the 12 fought on par with him (for a while, at least.) I wonder if all the HPs of [deity] are very high level?

Good point and I also wondered that when I read your Loki-argument. If we assume the Loki-guy is high, why should not all the other HPs be that high as well?
In general, I'd assume that Redcloak should not be a measurement for other HPs, as he did *a lot* of travelling and xp-gaining. I find it unlikely other High Priests have such a moved and exciting backstory as Redcloak.

On the other hand you could argue: How does a High Priest become a High Priest in the first place? In that case, he'd become it after retireing (or getting "promoted") after moved live that gained him levels - because of his levels!
If it worked like that (God picks a high level cleric and "calls" him to take position in a city), all High Priests should be "powerful" (12+).

Xerxus

2010-03-19, 10:12 AM

Aarindarius is obviously higher level than V who is around 13, so I dont think its that safe to say that there are no wizards with wish somewhere in their spellbook. And since that means that there could very well be a wish-scroll out there, I dont think its that obvious for Mama that her son is lost and gone. So its strange that she didnt spend a longer while trying to rez him.

Ancalagon

2010-03-19, 10:14 AM

Aarindarius is obviously higher level than V who is around 13

Why?

The only real thing we know about Aarindarius is that he once WAS Vaarsuvius' Master (and thus more able, higher level). We also know that Vaarsuvius still THINKS he is more powerful.

But for all we really know, he could be level 10.

Bartonar

2010-03-19, 10:18 AM

Optimystik

2010-03-19, 10:19 AM

Agreed, but it also was cast by one of the established epic chars that are also established dead (or... something).

Yes, and she's also a Druid - they don't get TR, Wish or Miracle. So we still don't know if those spells are available in OotS, or if any Clerics got that high. Hmm...

In general, I'd assume that Redcloak should not be a measurement for other HPs, as he did *a lot* of travelling and xp-gaining. I find it unlikely other High Priests have such a moved and exciting backstory as Redcloak.

On the other hand you could argue: How does a High Priest become a High Priest in the first place? In that case, he'd become it after retireing (or getting "promoted") after moved live that gained him levels - because of his levels!
If it worked like that (God picks a high level cleric and "calls" him to take position in a city), all High Priests should be "powerful" (12+).

It makes sense when you consider the gods' MO - they want their followers to be high level, that's what caused all this trouble with the goblins in the first place. So it makes sense that they'd want their high priests to be the highest level of all.

I still maintain that Redcloak gained levels from putting on the cloak. This is not a new trope to fantasy - when Cadderly became a Chosen of Deneir in the Cleric Quintet, he took several levels in badass just by reading a book, learning 7th- and 8th-level spells without even leaving his inn room. (Though, using them aged him.)

Or maybe, as you suggest, they did their adventuring early on and are only just now settling down.

Which also makes me wonder how powerful the High Priest of Odin is. I have a feeling we'll find out when Xykon goes after Kraagor's gate...

Aarindarius is obviously higher level than V who is around 13, so I dont think its that safe to say that there are no wizards with wish somewhere in their spellbook.

There's a lot of daylight between 13 and 17.
And even if he can cast 9ths, Wish doesn't have to be one of them.

Im not sure if this has been mentioned somewhere or other, but Dragons dont count under ressurection (to my knowledge). The spell description states Humanoid. Reincarnation would work, it doesnt specify... but would she want her son to be a fruitfly for a day, then dead again?

Where'd you get that? The spell only bars Constructs, Elementals and Outsiders.

Shale

2010-03-19, 10:26 AM

For 9th-level cleric spells, Redcloak is very close, and the High Priest of the 12 fought on par with him (for a while, at least.) I wonder if all the HPs of [deity] are very high level?

Eh. He never cast a spell you have to be above 12th level to know, and none of them actually worked. All we know about him, power-wise, is that he has pretty good saving throws.

Zherog

2010-03-19, 10:28 AM

Im not sure if this has been mentioned somewhere or other, but Dragons dont count under ressurection (to my knowledge). The spell description states Humanoid. Reincarnation would work, it doesnt specify... but would she want her son to be a fruitfly for a day, then dead again?

Um, no.

Resurrection

Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 7 Casting Time: 10 minutes

This spell functions like raise dead, except that you are able to restore life and complete strength to any deceased creature.

Raise Dead

Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 5
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: Dead creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

The real important part is the "target" entry. It's not limited to humanoids at all -- simply dead creatures.

There's a few additional restrictions in the descriptive text:

A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be raised by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be raised. The spell cannot bring back a creature that has died of old age.

So dragons are a completely valid target for any of the "big three" restore life spells.

edit: Optimystik beat me to it, but my post has actual quotes. So Nyah! :smalltongue:

Ancalagon

2010-03-19, 10:31 AM

It makes sense when you consider the gods[...]

Or maybe, as you suggest, they did their adventuring early on and are only just now settling down.

This all makes sense: From now on I'll consider the high priests to be all powerful. That is: level 12+ (including up to the possibility to be 20 in some rare case).

Which also makes me wonder how powerful the High Priest of Odin is. I have a feeling we'll find out when Xykon goes after Kraagor's gate...

I bet we'll see some dwarf fighting/dwarf slaughter by then.

But what is more interesting: Will we find out why Durkon is so afraid of trees? ;)

Hum... back to topic.

Optimystik

2010-03-19, 10:39 AM

But what is more interesting: Will we find out why Durkon is so afraid of trees? ;)

Given that he'll be dead by then, probably not :smalltongue:
But his hatred of trees is implied to be a common trait to all dwarves here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0602.html) (second page.)

Ancalagon

2010-03-19, 10:49 AM

Given that he'll be dead by then, probably not :smalltongue:
But his hatred of trees is implied to be a common trait to all dwarves here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0602.html) (second page.)

I'm pretty sure Durkon will get better. ;)

And yes, I also think it's not a Durkon-trait. So there must be a reason. I'd be fun to see that Durkon did have a point all the time. Or at least he would have if they were in dwarven lands (the trees here really are evil or there are at least some evil trees. And even better: It has to do with the gate). ;)

Optimystik

2010-03-19, 11:09 AM

I'm pretty sure Durkon will get better. ;)

And yes, I also think it's not a Durkon-trait. So there must be a reason. I'd be fun to see that Durkon did have a point all the time. Or at least he would have if they were in dwarven lands (the trees here really are evil or there are at least some evil trees. And even better: It has to do with the gate). ;)

Trees defending a gate were used already though (by Lirian.) I doubt Serini would do anything similar.

Also, for some strange reason Durkon doesn't freak around treants - he kept his head quite admirably in Cliffport - he just wigs out around actual trees. :smalltongue:

Trixie

2010-03-19, 11:20 AM

Loot everything within the 10 mile radius from home.

How? :smallamused:

Dragon are great for torching stuff, but torched stuff is basically worthless and they can't exactly search for stuff and pick little objects like money with their claws, even after eliminating the opposition.

The only way dragon can get monies is ransom for not torching, and all targets big and rich enough are adequately defended, or have owners just as strong as she is.

Remember, she wanted V to feel helpless, not just be sad that his family was gone. She had to let him know what was happening in order to make him feel that "I can't do anything!" despair.

Then do steps 1-8, then inform V you're going to kill them... and watch how he scurries without knowing the family is already gone :smallamused:

Moriarty

2010-03-19, 11:40 AM

I'm pretty sure Durkon will get better. ;)

And yes, I also think it's not a Durkon-trait. So there must be a reason. I'd be fun to see that Durkon did have a point all the time. Or at least he would have if they were in dwarven lands (the trees here really are evil or there are at least some evil trees. And even better: It has to do with the gate). ;)

I always figured it's just roots carving through the ground and collapsing tunnels (theres one comic with a dwarf "sacrificing" himself holding off roots with an axe).

edith: I guess I'll just throw something about Vs mentor in:

When V left Aarindarius, he was still an apprentice. It's possible he didn't even know Aarindarius level. V only whitnessed his master being able to solve every problem with his magic powers, leaving him with the impression Aarindarius was powerful.

Sholos

2010-03-19, 12:33 PM

Question. As a high level wizard, why would you want to scribe a wish scroll to be used by anyone but yourself? Similarly, why would anyone who found a wish scroll be willing to part with it?

Ancalagon

2010-03-19, 12:40 PM

I always figured it's just roots carving through the ground and collapsing tunnels (theres one comic with a dwarf "sacrificing" himself holding off roots with an axe)

Yes, sure. That's what they WANT US TO BELIEVE! :)

factotum

2010-03-19, 01:05 PM

Rich can choose which spells get into OotS, and which ones don't. DMs are quite free to do that. And given the story-wrecking power of both Wish and TR, doing so is quite understandable for him.

Nice try, but the IFCC specifically state in strip #634:

"First, you won't be able to duplicate any divine magic, not even with a Wish or Limited Wish."

If those spells didn't exist in the Stickverse, why would they need to make that distinction?

Optimystik

2010-03-19, 01:30 PM

Nice try, but the IFCC specifically state in strip #634:

"First, you won't be able to duplicate any divine magic, not even with a Wish or Limited Wish."

If those spells didn't exist in the Stickverse, why would they need to make that distinction?

Because one or all of the three epic casters that he was bound to knew the spell. That doesn't mean anyone alive can do them.

So, you know, right back at you and stuff.

factotum

2010-03-20, 01:32 AM

SPoD

2010-03-20, 06:46 PM

There are no scrolls in this scenario. Why are we talking about scrolls?

There is an Ancient Black Dragon with extra levels in sorcerer, enough so that she can cast 9th level spells. She selected Soul Bind as one of her few 9th level spells; she did not select Wish. Easy enough.

I'm sure that, when her son was killed, she regretted not selecting Wish, but that doesn't mean she gets to swap it out. Earning extra levels must be enormously difficult for a dragon, given how few actual challenges there must be; she can't just assume that she's going to be able to level up and learn a new spell. And if she already had three 9th level spells (as a 20th level sorcerer), then she doesn't get to learn any more, period, unless she spends epic feats.

There's no evidence that there is anyone creating 9th-level spell scrolls at all, and thus there is no logic hole.

Kish

2010-03-20, 06:55 PM

There are no scrolls in this scenario. Why are we talking about scrolls?

Because the Ancient Black Dragon disagreed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0629.html) that there are no scrolls in the scenario.

There is an Ancient Black Dragon with extra levels in sorcerer, enough so that she can cast 9th level spells.

The highest level spell she cast onstage was sixth. Assuming Rich decided her sorcerer levels stacked with her natural dragon spellcasting rather than overlapping it, that only takes one or two levels of sorcerer. The idea that she had enough sorcerer levels to give her ninth level spells, pushing her firmly into Epic territory, strikes me as somewhat unlikely--and in any case she specified that she planned on using scrolls for her plan.

Optimystik

2010-03-20, 07:02 PM

I got the impression you were saying that those spells just didn't exist. If they DO exist, and somebody in the world is capable of creating 9th level Soul Bind scrolls, it seems a bit of a handwave to say, "Oh, obviously nobody is capable of casting Wish, which is why she couldn't take that approach".

If none of the splices knew Wish (or Limited Wish) then the IFCC's warning would have been rather pointless. So we can safely say that at least one of them did.

The tiny problem with that is that they are dead, and the one 9th-level-spell arcanist we do know of for sure doesn't have the spell.

As for Miracle/TR, we have yet to see any clerics capable of 9th-level spells in OotS.

Kranden

2010-03-20, 07:24 PM

Because then there would have been no plot? Duh

Dark Matter

2010-03-20, 08:15 PM

Two comments:

First, the highest level spell we saw ABD cast was 7th (Finger of Death).

Second, the most likely "person" for her to get her scrolls from was another ABD, who would have also been a Sorcerer. That right there means it's extremely unlikely that "Wish" could even come into play. If her source was high enough level to have more than one 9th level spell, well... wish costs buckets of exp. If I were a Sorcerer I don't think I'd pick it just for that reason.

SPoD

2010-03-20, 08:29 PM

Because the Ancient Black Dragon disagreed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0629.html) that there are no scrolls in the scenario.

You are right and I am wrong. Objection withdrawn.

In that case, I would simply say that scribing a scroll of Wish requires the caster to expend the XP as if they had cast Wish, making it much, much, MUCH less likely to be scribed at all, much less sold.

Alex Warlorn

2010-03-20, 11:39 PM

Remember the soul must be willing and ABLE to return.

There were still plenty of black dragons around at that time. I think Tiamat wouldn't allow a dragon a second chance at life who failed her by losing to some no face adventurers.

AgentofOdd

2010-03-21, 12:42 AM

Because then there would have been no plot? DuhEven if Mama dragon brings her son back to life she's still going to be furious at the world for looking at her offspring as chunks of exp. Combine that with her unflattering views on mammals and evil alignment, it's still quite possible she'd attempt her disproportionate revenge.

Gamgee

2010-03-21, 02:11 AM

Black Dragons flaw... they think of themselves more than others.

Her vengeance for her son was more important than her son himself. Her own flaw really. Or so that is how I understand it.

Although can it be a flaw if they have natural tendencies to be selfish? Perhaps... it is debatable though.

Sholos

2010-03-21, 09:05 AM

Joerg

2010-03-21, 02:47 PM

Moriarty

2010-03-21, 02:52 PM

There is still some inconsistency about the availability of True Resurrection:

The ABD seems to think it impossible for her (though not for V, otherwise no need for Soul Bind), and Haley doubts at one time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html) whether there even is a cleric which can cast it.

The dragon doesn't use Soul Bind to prevent V from resurrecting his kids, its more meant as additional punishment as the souls of the kids will be bound to the mother dragon instead of finding rest in their afterlives

SPoD

2010-03-21, 04:00 PM

There is still some inconsistency about the availability of True Resurrection:

The ABD seems to think it impossible for her (though not for V, otherwise no need for Soul Bind), and Haley doubts at one time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html) whether there even is a cleric which can cast it.

But earlier, Haley herself thinks it would be no problem for Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html) to get resurrected by his minons that way.

That's because at that time, Haley is working on Story-Logic. In Story-Logic, of COURSE the villain finds a way to get resurrected, even if no one can explain how. Villains always come back. The same can't be said for heroes.

valce

2010-03-21, 04:48 PM

The three answers I've seen so far:

1. She's evil, the though either did not occur to her or she decided she would rather get revenge than resurrect her son.
2. She planned to resurrect her son after killing V. Again she's evil, so maybe she wanted to have fun before worrying about her family. After all, what were the chances that a mid-level elf of unknown gender could kill her? And a Wish/True Resurrection would probably work after she killed and enslaved V's children.
3. Wish/True Resurrection doesn't exist in game or are just really hard to get a hold of. This seems to be making an assumption about the comic's universe based on one incident, so it's not that reasonable

Of those, I think 2 sounds most reasonable, don't you?

valce

2010-03-21, 04:50 PM

On a side note, the previous post seems to suggest that True Resurrection exists but 17th level clerics are rare/hard to come by, which supports option 2 (it'll take longer to find the 17th level cleric than find V)

Although, really, revenge is fun and all that but it'll probably be less trouble for ABD to have another kid than raise the old one :P

Shale

2010-03-21, 04:54 PM

3. Wish/True Resurrection doesn't exist in game or are just really hard to get a hold of. This seems to be making an assumption about the comic's universe based on one incident, so it's not that reasonable

They're the most powerful non-epic arcane and divine, respectively, spells in the universe. There's a high priest of an entire pantheon who can't cast TR, and every reason for a wizard or sorcerer who did learn Wish to keep it to himself and not scribe it for some other schlub to use. Why shouldn't they be really hard to come by?

Alex Warlorn

2010-03-21, 09:59 PM

I don't think Tiamat is that typical of an EVUL deity when it comes to the chromatic dragons.

We are of a difference of opinion. And it's also possible her son had already been drafted into Tiamat's army in the afterlife.

Optimystik

2010-03-21, 10:16 PM

3. Wish/True Resurrection doesn't exist in game or are just really hard to get a hold of. This seems to be making an assumption about the comic's universe based on one incident, so it's not that reasonable

"Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Wish.htm)

Making it hard to come by is quite reasonable, whether you think so or not.

As for TR, the one divine representative the dragons have been shown to have access to isn't even a cleric, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0566.html) much less a cleric capable of 9th-level spells. As a matter of fact, none of the high priests we've seen so far have been capable of 9ths. And as they are supposedly the highest-level clerics in the world, it's quite reasonable for TR to be difficult to acquire as well.

Of those, I think 2 sounds most reasonable, don't you?

Nope.