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The Rose Dragon
2010-03-13, 02:55 PM
So, let's talk about GURPS. Or rather, its price tag.

GURPS Basic Set: Characters & Campaigns, in .pdf format, is priced at $55, give or take ten cents. In my opinion, for a generic system that won't even have supplements, that is a lot of dollars.

Now, I've heard that you can build pretty much anything as long as it's gritty enough for those 55 dollars, but I'm still not quite sold completely, because for that price, I could get around 4 .pdf's that are more focused towards what I have in mind and call it a day. Then again, that means I'd lose the prime advantage of generic systems: flexibility.

So, what I'm asking is, is the price tag and lack of specialization towards a genre worth the flexibility I will get, or am I better off buying other RPG books?

Comet
2010-03-13, 03:05 PM
I would personally rather have a pile of individual games that do their respective things as well as possible than a single game that does everything well enough.

I'm not a huge fan of generic systems. It's more fun to try out different games and different systems. Keeps things fresh.

Satyr
2010-03-13, 03:30 PM
I am definitely biased in this regard, but yes, defenitely. It is one of the best designed games around, and mostly really good.

First of all, there are supplements, and plenty of them. Some about specific settings, some more genre-related. For example, one of the best Science Fiction game I have ever come to see, Transhuman Space, is a Gurps game. Basically, the Gurps sourcebooks are among the best you will find for any RPG, because they are solidly researched, well written (from an informative point of view) and offer lots ideas. The rules are complex, but very well streamlined; once you know how it works, it becomes mostly intuitive.

And the gritty thing? That's a prejudice, and a wrong one at that. Gurps does gritty comparatively well, because it takes the real world into account as a baseline everyone can refer and rely to; that doesn't mean you cannot play any other form of game reasonably well, and often better than more specialised games. In more than half of the cases, I can easily replace the rule mechanics in any setting with Gurps and make the game significantly better.

I have come to see Gurps as the baseline of what games should be able to pull of. If a setting specific game cannot pull off its niche as good as the Gurps equivalent, it's not a perticular good game.

Sure, it is not the game with the best price-quality ratio ever (that's Witchcraft, mainly because it's free), but it is a very good game, and can heartily recommend to anyone who has the time to make campaigns and the like on their own and like to be treated like an independent, thinking being and not just a consumer or a child which is treated like some idiot who just should do what he is told. I like games that respect my intelligence, and frankly, I believe it is a sorry state that this must be praised as some kind of rare quality and is not treated like a matter of fact for any game.

That doesn't mean that the game is perfect, or has no problems. Gurps requires the group to establish its own framework and needs a few thoughts put in it, you need to become actively involved in the layout of any campaign, and need to plan what kind of game you want to play beforehand. Therefore, Gurps can be quite time and work intensive.

As a side note, if the prices on amazon do not vary a lot more than I expect, the hardcover versions of the books should be cheaper than 50 $.

The Rose Dragon
2010-03-13, 03:32 PM
As a side note, if the prices on amazon do not vary a lot more than I expect, the hardcover versions of the books should be cheaper than 50 $.

I can't get hardcover books, especially from Amazon, due to shipping issues. So I'm stuck with getting the .pdf's.

EDIT: Speaking of Witchcraft, I often find myself wishing Eden Studios would support the genericness of Unisystem more. It could even become my favorite system that way.

EDIT 2: By "won't have supplements", I meant "won't have supplements included in that $55 package". Like mentioned above, I'm used to getting 4 books for that price, and while I'm technically getting 2 books in this case, they are core books, not supplements.

Gametime
2010-03-13, 03:47 PM
GURPS is an excellent system for those who like it, and a mediocre one for those who don't. Unfortunately, as far as I can tell, liking it is not a matter of exact formulas, so it's a bit of a gamble.

I'd recommend downloading the free basic rules and trying a few short adventures just to get a feel for the process of character building and combat. The rules really don't mesh well with some people, for whatever reason, and if your group doesn't like GURPS then how flexible it is won't matter.

If you enjoy yourselves, though, you won't find a better investment (in terms of applicable rules knowledge) than the GURPS system.

The Rose Dragon
2010-03-13, 03:50 PM
I don't have an offline RPG group, honestly. The reason I'm interested in GURPS is because it seems to be the most popular RPG system that isn't based on d20 in PbP boards.

Starscream
2010-03-13, 03:57 PM
I love GURPS, after D&D 3.5 it's my favorite system. But yes, $55 is a big price tag. Maybe look online for used copies?

The Rose Dragon
2010-03-13, 04:03 PM
I love GURPS, after D&D 3.5 it's my favorite system. But yes, $55 is a big price tag. Maybe look online for used copies?

Like I said, due to shipping reasons, I cannot actually rely on acquiring hardcopies, used or otherwise.

OK, I accidentally said hardcover, so it's kinda my fault. Still, I'm stuck with getting .pdf's.

EDIT: Not to mention that it doesn't end at $55, since each supplement is about $25. That means getting three supplements puts it at $130.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-13, 04:05 PM
I'm kind of confused, what are you complaining about for the price? 4e costs $66 on amazon, even more than GURPS. Very few core rule-sets will fall under the $40 mark unless they're free.

Also note: you don't need any other books than core for GURPS. While you don't need other books for d&d, almost everyone gets them because they give you so many more character options. You can do all of that with just characters. 90% of GURPS sourcebooks add to fluff, not crunch, and those that do add to crunch are the only books you'll ever want for that thing (e.g. you'll only ever need martial arts for mundane combat, it's that comprehensive)

If you do buy GURPS, you won't ever need to buy other splatbooks, this isn't d&d.

Lawless III
2010-03-13, 04:06 PM
I recently bought the GURPS basic set myself. It's taking me a bit longer to figure out than DnD 3.5 (my first rpg) did, but I'm pretty excited about the kind of things I'm going to be able to make. So far, without having played an official game yet, I can't really make a recommendation one way or the other, but the books are well written and I'm looking forward to taking it for a test drive.:smallsmile:

The Rose Dragon
2010-03-13, 04:10 PM
I like fluff. My favorite system, Mutants & Masterminds, adds at most one page of mechanics with every book (except for character write-ups) and I buy nearly all of them (except IP licensed onces such as Wild Cards), so I will probably go on a mad shopping spree once I'm on the damn thing.

For reference, Mutants & Masterminds costs only 20 dollars for the entirety of its core, AFMBE costs 21 dollars for its core book which includes most everything a core book needs, and Ghosts of Albion costs 20 dollars for its so-far only book. Qin: the Warring States costs 27 dollars, making it the most expensive of them all, but still much cheaper than GURPS Basic Set.

Knaight
2010-03-13, 04:27 PM
55 dollars for 2 PDFs is pricey, and GURPS isn't my first choice for a generic, but I would go for it. GURPS is really, really good, highly comprehensive, and those 2 books cover a lot of material well. There are other generic systems that are cheaper, but they are often either hard to find in PDF, so shipping brings it up (Savage Worlds is dirt cheap and small, so it is probably still cheaper than PDF for you, but that implies you want to play Savage Worlds. Eww.) still a decent portion of the price (Cortex), or basically a template for designing games that still needs some work (Fudge, although it is actually really well done. Others like it are usually worse).

Plus, beats HERO, which is about as generic. And it is worth looking at just as much as much as everything listed above, including the incredible Qin, and you won't need any other books.

Satyr
2010-03-13, 04:34 PM
On the other hand, the Gurps Basic Set is indead a set, and includes two books.


Speaking of Witchcraft, I often find myself wishing Eden Studios would support the genericness of Unisystem more. It could even become my favorite system that way.

Due to the current state of Eden Games, I often find myself wishing they would bring out any product. Really. I even bought the PDF of GOA, despite my complete lack of interest in the game (at first; after reading it, I kinda like it now and would definitely give it a try).

Yes, the Gurps core books are a bit thin on fluff. There is some kind of alibi setting in the Basic Set (Infinite Worlds), but that's mostly a form of linking between all kinds of other, more substantial settings.
Like I said, you probably have to do a lot on your own.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-13, 04:37 PM
I like fluff. My favorite system, Mutants & Masterminds, adds at most one page of mechanics with every book (except for character write-ups) and I buy nearly all of them (except IP licensed onces such as Wild Cards), so I will probably go on a mad shopping spree once I'm on the damn thing.

For reference, Mutants & Masterminds costs only 20 dollars for the entirety of its core, AFMBE costs 21 dollars for its core book which includes most everything a core book needs, and Ghosts of Albion costs 20 dollars for its so-far only book. Qin: the Warring States costs 27 dollars, making it the most expensive of them all, but still much cheaper than GURPS Basic Set.

Are those prices for both books? If so, I am surprised, and take it back. I haven't bought RPG books in a long time.

Satyr
2010-03-13, 04:56 PM
Most games nowadays come in a "One book for all" format; even better, some are "One book you'll ever need".

The Rose Dragon
2010-03-14, 07:31 PM
Anyone else like to pitch in? I'm sure this isn't the sum of everyone who's played GURPS on GitP.

Raiki
2010-03-14, 08:08 PM
I've played GURPS quite a few times, and I have to say that I love it. The system really can be used to replicate anything you want. I've played a post-apocolypse style game, a victorian supers game, and Shadowrun-esque black ops game, another supers game set in a homebrew world, and there were one or two others that were planned but never played. Honestly, I would recommend GURPS for pretty much any type of play except possibly fantasy. It can DO fantasy, but the reality of the mechanics really aren't terribly conducive to the verisimilitude. The best thing about GURPS is that their rules for almost everything scale with the level of work you're willing to put into it. In the game we're playing now, we discover a new question, and the corresponding new rule, almost every session. The level of detail is phenomenal. And the best part is that if you want to play an Alien-descended, psychic, flying, sentient ape with a power suit, intelligent magical sword, seventeen cybernetic implants and the abilities to shapeshift and melt things with your eyes? They have rules for that.

Summary: If you want fantasy, play D&D or WoD. If you want almost anything else, I couldn't reccomend GURPS highly enough.

~R~

warmachine
2010-03-15, 05:04 AM
You need to answer how many settings you're going to deal with and what's your attitude to quality. GURPS supplements are famous for their quality but producing a researching, editing and playtesting a quality product is expensive. Just look at most of the stuff from Mongoose Publishing for examples of cheap production. If you're going to switch settings, GURPS may provide better value as some supplements, such as the High-tech, Ultra-tech and Bio-tech catalogue books, can be re-used. If you're sticking to just one setting, you're better off using a dedicated system, assuming one exists.

Satyr
2010-03-15, 07:06 AM
Only because a game is dedicated to one setting doesn't mean that it is good in any ways. There are good specific settings as well as bad ones, and there are good generic systems, as well as bad ones and there are some in-between, both regarding adaptability as well as overall quality.
I personally think, that you could easily replace around two thirds of all specific game systems with Gurps and get a significant improvement of the rules, not because most specific systems are bad by default (even though I consider them to be more hidebound and rigid), but because Gurps is that good.
As a rule of thumb: Anything you could ever do in D20, Gurps can do as well, and usually better.

Tyndmyr
2010-03-15, 07:31 AM
I would personally rather have a pile of individual games that do their respective things as well as possible than a single game that does everything well enough.

I'm not a huge fan of generic systems. It's more fun to try out different games and different systems. Keeps things fresh.

I would agree with this. My experiences with Gurps(earlier version admittedly) and Hero indicate that while it's possible to make lovely specialized games from generic settings...it take a lot more work than just grabbing specialized games.

If you do opt to give it a go, buying books may be better than pdfs at that price.

Fhaolan
2010-03-15, 10:28 AM
In my opinion GURPS shines is cross-genre gaming and custom campaigns. I've mentioned before in other threads that GURPS isn't a really a game, it's a toolbox for you to build a game. It's difficult to use it flat out of the 'box', as the GM (and the players, depening on how the GM runs the game) has to put a lot of work into organizing and choosing options, even if he uses one of the settings books.

GURPS is a gear-head system, meaning it's full of variant rules and options, and chargen is an exercise in number-crunching. HERO is even more gear-headed, by the way, but 4th edition GURPS is getting pretty close thanks to the Powers suppliment. :smallsmile: If you want a technically lighter system, there's FUDGE, and if you want to go *really* light, there's always Primetime Adventures and those other so-called 'narrativist' games.

However, these are all generic systems that require a lot of work to build out a campaign/game. If you want a specific setting that already has a RPG that covers it, you're usually better off with that. If you want a custom campaign/game, or one that will deliberately span multiple settings (such as dimension- or time-hopping) the generic systems will work better for you.

fusilier
2010-03-15, 12:27 PM
Download the GURPSlite (or whatever it is called) version of the rules first!

If you are having qualms about shelling out the money for the full game, those rules will give you the absolute basics, and let you know what the system is like. They are missing the wealth of options (skills/advantages/disadvantages, etc.) that the main books will have, but they should have enough to give you an idea of what it is like.

I don't have too much experience with 4th edition GURPS, but the books do seem to be laid out well. Not all the supplements are that expensive in .pdf format, some of the small ones are less than $10.

Fluff in GURPS is mainly provided by the smaller supplements, in my experience, although I know that some of the bigger supplements can provide it too. Most of the big ones, mainly provide more game detail or options, without, necessarily, providing story and background (i.e. they might lack a setting).

Out of curiosity, what do you have mind? I mean what kind of game are you planning to run with GURPS? That might help some of us decide whether or not the price-tag is worth it, compared to some alternative.

Tough_Tonka
2010-03-15, 04:15 PM
What system will give you 4 books for 55 dollars?
I could imagine getting a few cheap supplements books for that price, but I couldn't think of too many games that you can get the core books and supplements for that price.

Also I'd like to say that gurps is most likely worth the money. If you're worried about it being too gritty there are options for less realistics campaigns in the campaign guide.

The Rose Dragon
2010-03-15, 04:17 PM
Also I'd like to say that gurps is most likely worth the money. If you're worried about it being too gritty there are options for less realistics campaigns in the campaign guide.

I have other systems for less gritty games, actually. The only problem they have is that they are too abstract for some of the things I have in mind.

Raiki
2010-03-15, 05:00 PM
I have other systems for less gritty games, actually. The only problem they have is that they are too abstract for some of the things I have in mind.

Well believe you me RD, GURPS is the exact opposite of abstract. They have rules for everything. Precision is GURPS's middle name. Y'know, if game systems had middle names and all that.

~R~

The Rose Dragon
2010-03-15, 05:03 PM
Well believe you me RD, GURPS is the exact opposite of abstract. They have rules for everything. Precision is GURPS's middle name. Y'know, if game systems had middle names and all that.

~R~

Maybe it was originally named Generic Universal Precise Role Playing System. But GUPRPS is not nearly as easy to say as GURPS.