[D&D] Someone please explain charisma to me...

[randomhero00]

In how it is (roleplay wise) a casting stat? Its never made sense to me how a sorcerer draws from his charisma to cast a spell. "Actual strength of personality" doesn't make sense to me. "My personality is so leet I can control arcane forces" wth..? I'm fine with it from a balance stand point, I just want to know what they mean by it.

[penbed400]

Charisma is like you're personality. The idea behind a sorceror casting it is that they are born with the talent to do so. They can cause things to happen by the force of their personality. They are forcing the world to bend to their will with their own power of mind. At least that how I took it.

[Harperfan7]

Sorcerers (and potentially everybody with at least average charisma apparently) have magic in their blood, and they can control it if their personality is strong enough and they train themselves to do so.

So its strength of personality + inherent magic, not just personality.

[Icewraith]

There are some salesmen who, even though you have no need for whatever it is they are selling, will convince you you need it and furthermore may want to look at a few other products. The salesman will also after five minutes know you by name, the approximate region you live in, whether or not you like sports, electronics, or anything else he can make into a metaphor, you will have his business card, and he will call you the next day at a time that is actually convenient for you.

They're just that nice, they have a great smile, if you put them in an unlit room they would glow with confidence and they never seem to get zits.

Now imagine the laws of the universe are susceptible to flattery, and you have sorcerers. Only they're also badasses on top of being the person your eye is drawn to upon entering the room and even though you may completely disagree with what they are saying you feel compelled to agree with them.

[randomhero00]

Charisma is like you're personality. The idea behind a sorceror casting it is that they are born with the talent to do so. They can cause things to happen by the force of their personality. They are forcing the world to bend to their will with their own power of mind. At least that how I took it.

That doesn't make sense, force of will (willpower) is wisdom.

[Zeta Kai]

There are some salesmen who, even though you have no need for whatever it is they are selling, will convince you you need it and furthermore may want to look at a few other products. The salesman will also after five minutes know you by name, the approximate region you live in, whether or not you like sports, electronics, or anything else he can make into a metaphor, you will have his business card, and he will call you the next day at a time that is actually convenient for you.

They're just that nice, they have a great smile, if you put them in an unlit room they would glow with confidence and they never seem to get zits.

Now imagine the laws of the universe are susceptible to flattery, and you have sorcerers. Only they're also badasses on top of being the person your eye is drawn to upon entering the room and even though you may completely disagree with what they are saying you feel compelled to agree with them.

This is it, in a nutshell. Charisma is the Power of Pretty.

And I agree, Willpower should be keyed to one's Charisma, not one's Wisdom. That never made sense to me.

[randomhero00]

Now imagine the laws of the universe are susceptible to flattery, and you have sorcerers. Only they're also badasses on top of being the person your eye is drawn to upon entering the room and even though you may completely disagree with what they are saying you feel compelled to agree with them.

A decent explanation for a different system perhaps, but I haven't seen anywhere that sorcs are flattering the universe, that the universe cares about them more or something. Plus that sounds more divine than arcane. Arcane is all about being indifferent to its use.

[The Rose Dragon]

And I agree, Willpower should be keyed to one's Charisma, not one's Wisdom. That never made sense to me.

1) It is Will, not Willpower. The save was never named Willpower. People keep calling it Willpower. It's annoying to my obsessive sensibilities.

2) It is sort of keyed to Charisma... in 4th Edition. It uses the higher of Wisdom and Charisma.

3) Maybe they just thought the alliterative association would feel better.

[penbed400]

That doesn't make sense, force of will (willpower) is wisdom.

I dunno, I've always considered Wisdom to be more like Power from Runequest. It's your life energy, faith and luck. Charisma seems more like its your social skills, attractiveness and power level of your personality.

I guess its just more how you see the fluff being applied.

[Harperfan7]

Everybody already has the power of/over magic. They just need charisma to control/use it (and a little self-training).

[Superglucose]

In how it is (roleplay wise) a casting stat? Its never made sense to me how a sorcerer draws from his charisma to cast a spell. "Actual strength of personality" doesn't make sense to me. "My personality is so leet I can control arcane forces" wth..? I'm fine with it from a balance stand point, I just want to know what they mean by it.

Think about magic as its own entity, and the way Arcane spellcasters convince it to do stuff is by "communicating" with it. So if I want to cast a Grease spell, I have to communicate to Magic that I want it to make this square greasy.

Wizards spend their time studying this language... and study requires int.

Sorcerers are somehow born with the knowledge of how to communicate with it, but require high charisma to convince the magic to do what they want it to do.

Bards are similar to sorcs, but they get their powers by singing it out.

[Xallace]

Paraphrasing from the PHB: magic is "like an artist composes a piece" for sorcerers, an innate talent, a creative force of sorts. Magic is a form of expression for sorcerers, and since Charisma is the stat keyed to the ability to express one's self in D&D, I suppose WotC felt that it made sense.

Sorcerers being personable, suave and hot seems to be an unintended side effect of the system. I think sorcerer casting should probably be based on some kind of Will Save mechanic, personally.

[rubycona]

Wisdom willpower is like "I Know this is unwise, I understand what force is coming over me, so I will resist!"

Charisma willpower is more like, "Screw that, I am ME! And that is all I need."

Both are sort of willpower, but one's passive/gentle, and one's bullheaded and grr, you know? Willing something to happen, pouring your soul into it, a fire burning within you that you direct to your will, and you feel the universe crumbling before the might of that will...

That's Charisma. For Sorcs and stuff, anyway.

I really liked 4th Ed's allowing you to use Cha or Wis for will saves, because both really are types of willpower. IRL, I'm low Wis and high Cha, and sure I may do damned stupid things sometimes, but try forcing me to do something against my will!

It really makes sense to me.

[randomhero00]

Think about magic as its own entity, and the way Arcane spellcasters convince it to do stuff is by "communicating" with it. So if I want to cast a Grease spell, I have to communicate to Magic that I want it to make this square greasy.

Wizards spend their time studying this language... and study requires int.

Sorcerers are somehow born with the knowledge of how to communicate with it, but require high charisma to convince the magic to do what they want it to do.

Bards are similar to sorcs, but they get their powers by singing it out.

Again, a decent explanation but not how it is in the books as far as I know (I could be wrong.) Wizards spend time essentially studying magic formulas. They're more like mathematicians, except math can burn things. They aren't communicating when casting spells but manipulating the physical laws through magical formula. They essentially use the arcane power around them.

Sorcerers are born with personal power because of ancestry; they literally have their own stores of magic within them. Which they then need to learn to bring out and use. But wisdom or even intelligence seems better fitting than charisma to me.

Bards I can actually kind of see and it makes some sense at least. Since they are singing or playing music. Although with people in real life, the best composers often don't have much in charisma. Again, more intelligence. So...

[The_Snark]

A decent explanation for a different system perhaps, but I haven't seen anywhere that sorcs are flattering the universe, that the universe cares about them more or something. Plus that sounds more divine than arcane. Arcane is all about being indifferent to its use.

I dunno, I think it works fine; there's nothing to support it, but nothing to contradict it either, and it's not like the books really provide an explanation.

But if you want something else: Anybody can use arcane magic, in theory. It's a universally accessible force; one goes through the proper thought processes and physical motions, and magic happens. However, most people's minds have difficulty wrapping themselves around the concept: the thought processes aren't at all intuitive, and subconsciously, most people don't believe it could really be as simple as that. It's a mental block, rather than a lack of inborn power, that keeps people from casting spells. Wizards train themselves around this block by studying obsessively, forcing their minds to adapt to patterns that most mortal minds cannot even comprehend, and gain a greater mastery of magic in the process.

Sorcerers are the people who don't learn the theory. They stumble upon the patterns that make up spells by accident, or learn them by rote. Most importantly, they have the sheer self-confidence (or arrogance if you feel like being uncharitable) to overcome that mental block. They believe wholeheartedly that their thoughts and desires can warp the laws of nature.

[World Eater]

Are you trying to explain and make sense of magic? Seriously?

[AslanCross]

Someone said this once on these boards. I forget who it was, or I'd credit him/her appropriately.

"Wisdom is your download speed. Int is your processing power. Cha is your upload speed."

As such, Wisdom is your ability to take in relevant information, hence the perception checks, Sense Motive, scent, etc. being based on Wis as well as the ability to resist implanted thoughts (Will Saves; though Wis only augments these--the primary source of resistance to this is your training, hence the base saves.)

Intelligence is your processing power---your ability to interpret and manipulate data to make conclusions. Wizard casting being based off Intelligence is based on the assumption that you studied how to manipulate certain elements of the universe, and as such are able to use magic.

Cha is your upload speed: How much you can impose your will on others. There are some demons that are extremely ugly, but given their preternatural force of personality they can make others do what they want.
Sorcerer casting is forcibly bending the rules of the universe. You didn't study how to do it with subtle button pushing like Wizards did---you strong-arm reality into conforming.

[ericgrau]

Are you trying to explain and make sense of magic? Seriously?
Yes, and those kind of disparaging comments get old. Across all forms of fictional entertainment people expect it to be semi-realistic or it gets incredibly dumb and not entertaining.

Sorcerer powers are supposed to be innate, fueled by pure inner power. I suppose they could have equally made it wisdom base and called it sheer force of will, or int based and called it raw mental power... kinda like psions. Ya, choosing charisma for raw expression of personality is semi-arbitrary, but we already have wis and int casters :smalltongue:.

[randomhero00]

Are you trying to explain and make sense of magic? Seriously?

If that was directed at me. No not really (vancian system never made sense to me). I just want to know what charisma is, and linking it with magic is the easiest way to dissect it.

[Zexion]

Charisma is your incorruptibility, your "spirit." Your intelligence is your ability to understand information. Your wisdom is your ability to perceive others. A "cool guy" would have high Charisma, to convince people that he is "cool." Mind over matter is how Sorcerers work their magic.

[AslanCross]

Are you trying to explain and make sense of magic? Seriously?

Some people prefer to have an internally consistent way of explaining the elements of their game. After all, magic does make enough sense in-universe that characters devote a lot of time to study and understand it.

If in real life, scientists devote a lot of effort into understanding and manipulating the processes that govern the universe no matter how confusing and mysterious they are, I think it's not a stretch to want that intelligibility in a game universe.

[Yora]

Think about magic as its own entity, and the way Arcane spellcasters convince it to do stuff is by "communicating" with it. So if I want to cast a Grease spell, I have to communicate to Magic that I want it to make this square greasy.
Wisdom is pretty much mental Constitutions ("Don't give in to the fear." "Stay out of my head!"), while intelligence is mental Dexterity ("Not face on, but rather sneaky with feints and out maneuvering"). And Charisma is pretty much mental Strength ("Submit!" "Back on your feet! NOW!").

Charisma combines a great number of traits, to which I would also count passion and determination. Both you'd really need if you want to take a "mental grip" on the magical energies and force them to your will, without having any real idea how all the little details work. I imagine sorcerers, bards, and wilders to cast their spells by giving in to the adrenaline and pour torrents of magic down on their targets without holding anything back. A character with low charisma might just fight with rage or in panic, but I don't imagine them fighting with passion. Except dwarven berserks, but when you think of them as persons without considering the builds, their descriptions usually don't sound like gruff and sullen guys at all.

[Thurbane]

3.X has a nasty habit of not being able to decide if force of will/force of personality should be based on WIS or CHA.

In "ye olde days" of 1E and 2E, CHA was clearly spelled out as being looks and/or "charm" of personality (you could have high CHA without being pretty - you could be a compelling orator, or be naturally suave/charming). 3.X came along and muddied the waters up. Not sure how 4E handles it.


Some people prefer to have an internally consistent way of explaining the elements of their game. After all, magic does make enough sense in-universe that characters devote a lot of time to study and understand it.
Well said. A lot of people handwave things as "it's magic, it doesn't need to make sense", but IMHO, this can hurt suspension of disbelief.

[AmberVael]

Not sure how 4E handles it.

Well, 4E allows you to choose either Wisdom or Charisma for your will saves. It has a couple of interesting things like that.

[Thurbane]

So in 3.X at least, it seems like WIS and CHA are hopelessly intertwined. How do you rationalize a character that has an 18 in one score, and an 8 in the other?

18 WIS + 8 CHA = ability to easily shrug off mental attacks and manipulation by others, but no "force of personality"

8 WIS + 18 CHA = susceptible to mental attacks and manipulation by others, but massive "force of personality"

...does this seem a tad off to anyone else? In my mind, at least, willpower and force of personality are inexorably linked. That's why I preferred the 1E/2E description of CHA.

[Godskook]

Charisma is the measure of how forceful your personality is. Your ability to 'make' it work, despite any logical reason that it wouldn't(int) or stupid choices you've made in the process(wis).

I look at it the same way I look at musicians that I know. Musicians comes in two extremes:

"Intelligent" Musicians spend a lot of time learning scales, studying theory, practicing chords, and refining their knowledge of the art. They tend, moreso, to be very excellent at performing other people's works.

"Charismatic" Musicians are those lucky fellas that picked up a guitar for 5 minutes and where now better than I've worked for years to become. They spend little time bothering with the finer details of music, but they compose masterpieces.

Admittedly, with musicians, most are some balance of the two extremes, but you can always tell to which side someone leans.

That's why charisma being the sorcerer's stat makes sense to me.

[Tengu_temp]

Charisma is a measure of how cool you are.
Magic is cool.

Which leads us to:
Charisma = Coolness = Magic

[AslanCross]

So in 3.X at least, it seems like WIS and CHA are hopelessly intertwined. How do you rationalize a character that has an 18 in one score, and an 8 in the other?

18 WIS + 8 CHA = ability to easily shrug off mental attacks and manipulation by others, but no "force of personality"

8 WIS + 18 CHA = susceptible to mental attacks and manipulation by others, but massive "force of personality"

...does this seem a tad off to anyone else? In my mind, at least, willpower and force of personality are inexorably linked. That's why I preferred the 1E/2E description of CHA.

It's the mental equivalent of having a glass jaw. Someone in another thread explained that it is possible to have lousy strength and good con, and good strength and lousy con (the former is a case of simply having a good immune system, endurance, and ability to tolerate pain without being physically massive--I'm an example of this; the latter is a case of having really bad endurance and being prone to tiring out really quickly. One could say that big cats are like this---they're physically massive but tire out really quickly. Of course, their D&D stats don't reflect this.)

High Wis, low cha: It's easy enough to imagine a person who has a strong mental integrity, powerful perception, and yet has no desire or ability to push this on others. I know some people IRL who are like this.

Low wis, high cha: Impulsive, rash, capable of making others do what they want, and yet easy to fool or crush emotionally. In fact, I've met some people who are so reliant on their emotions for their ability to do things that when they're down (failed will saves), they're completely unable to act. I imagine a gullible person who has problems perceiving things and yet is difficult to say no to.

I think most of the confusion here comes from the similar terms "force of will" and "force of person." I don't think they're very good terms in this discussion to base interpretations on.

[Zexion]

AslinCross has a very good description.

[Superglucose]

Again, a decent explanation but not how it is in the books as far as I know (I could be wrong.) Wizards spend time essentially studying magic formulas. They're more like mathematicians, except math can burn things. They aren't communicating when casting spells but manipulating the physical laws through magical formula. They essentially use the arcane power around them.
No, but what I just put is basically vancian casting as I've been taught. And the book isn't really clear how a Wizard studies, just that they have to study for a long time, write down complex things in their spellbooks, and spells have been referred to as having a formula.

In any case, you asked for why it is a stat for casting: that's about as good an 'explanation' you can get. And remember: fluff is mutable so if you don't like it, don't use it and come up with something else.

[Rauthiss]

Someone said this once on these boards. I forget who it was, or I'd credit him/her appropriately.

"Wisdom is your download speed. Int is your processing power. Cha is your upload speed."

As such, Wisdom is your ability to take in relevant information, hence the perception checks, Sense Motive, scent, etc. being based on Wis as well as the ability to resist implanted thoughts (Will Saves; though Wis only augments these--the primary source of resistance to this is your training, hence the base saves.)

Intelligence is your processing power---your ability to interpret and manipulate data to make conclusions. Wizard casting being based off Intelligence is based on the assumption that you studied how to manipulate certain elements of the universe, and as such are able to use magic.

Cha is your upload speed: How much you can impose your will on others. There are some demons that are extremely ugly, but given their preternatural force of personality they can make others do what they want.
Sorcerer casting is forcibly bending the rules of the universe. You didn't study how to do it with subtle button pushing like Wizards did---you strong-arm reality into conforming.

This is probably the best description that I could agree with.

[Yakk]

There is a difference in being able to notice your surroundings and determine what you should pay attention to, and what isn't important (wisdom), and your force of personality (charisma).

Someone with high wisdom isn't fooled by illusions, notices when you lie to them, and can even notice when their mind is being controlled by a charm spell and bypass it.

Someone with high charisma can dominate room by their very presence, they can bend others to their will even if it isn't in the other's best interest.

On top of that, don't forget the difference between cause and effect. Sorcerers with more natural talent have higher charisma: while the attribute based system of D&D implies that the causality is "higher charisma causes better sorcerer", don't forget the convolved "natural magic talent makes you more convincing".

[Tequila Sunrise]

In how it is (roleplay wise) a casting stat? Its never made sense to me how a sorcerer draws from his charisma to cast a spell. "Actual strength of personality" doesn't make sense to me. "My personality is so leet I can control arcane forces" wth..? I'm fine with it from a balance stand point, I just want to know what they mean by it.
There's no solid meaning involved. Basically the designers said "Wouldn't it be nice if everyone's dump stat wasn't Charisma in this edition? I know, let's assign Charisma to spontaneous casting! We'll call it 'force of personality,' the fans'll love it!"

And they do. When 3e came out I thought "WTF, charisma makes sense for spells like Suggestion, but basing pretty much any non-enchantment on it is absurd!" I still think it's absurd, but it's one of many absurd D&Disms that I accept for the sake of fun and balance.

[Shadowbane]

When you say that the sorcerer is so incredibly charismatic he can make the laws of the universe bend over and take it, it is fairly badass.

[Geddoe]

Charisma equals coolness.

[Devils_Advocate]

Think of Charisma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charisma) as a spark of internal greatness, perhaps even a tiny spark of divinity. This spark manifests as a sort of personal magnetism and natural persuasiveness even in individuals with no special abilities nor training, but its when it's truly harnessed that its real power becomes apparent.

Charisma isn't persuasiveness itself. 4 skill ranks in a Cha-based skill makes someone with Cha 10 as good at it as someone with Cha 18. Charisma is just a sort of theoretical potential to be good any of several different things.

If there's a casting stat that doesn't really make sense, it's Wisdom for Clerics. Her powers of discernment can't allow a devotee of Heironeous to fully grasp the truth of her god's teachings while the same mental stat allows a disciple of Hextor to fully appreciate the truth of his god's contradictory teachings. That's rather impossible, since contradictory sets of teachings can't both be true. No, instead, D&D has things set up for clergy to recognize that there generally aren't objectively "right answers" to the issues that gods disagree about, just answers that you prefer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact-value_distinction). Now, does that seem like it should be the default perspective of servants of the deities?


So in 3.X at least, it seems like WIS and CHA are hopelessly intertwined. How do you rationalize a character that has an 18 in one score, and an 8 in the other?
Perhaps surprisingly, self-assurance doesn't automatically equate to stubbornness. For some people, doubtlessly believing in something doesn't prevent you from sitting them down, explaining your opposing view, and having them walk away doubtlessly believing the complete opposite of what they thought a few minutes ago. Their "conviction" simply stems from being as uncritical of their own beliefs as they are of what other tell them; they fail to think, but they're willing to listen.

(As I recall, Animal Farm described debates by two great speakers by saying that the audience tended to agree with whoever was speaking at the time.)

On the other hand, if you are good at "spotting" when something doesn't quite makes sense, then you're not going to blindly accept everything that you hear, and you're also not going to blindly go along with anything that pops into your head. But this won't make you good at convincing anyone else of anything, since common sense can't really be taught.

Edit: While Charisma and Wisdom may sometimes be described in similar or even identical terms, that's just a terminology problem. What the two ability scores do is quite different. On the one hand, you've got an internally held and externally projected sense of rightness, and on the other hand, you've got the ability to grok that which you sense physically and that which you think intellectually.

Intelligence, meanwhile, is the ability to sort information out. It helps you to produce correct guesses with greater frequency, though possibly also incorrect guesses. (Trying to sort out the guesses themselves using the same faulty heuristics that you're trying to compensate for is going to be of dubious value. This sort of thing is why Wisdom is important; brainpower is not rationality.)

[taltamir]

charisma is a vestige.
Historically, DnD descents from tabletop wargames, when they tried to add social interaction they decided to make a new stat that is just for it; because neither intelligence nor wisdom seemed to fit; originally, charisma was a measure of how sexy your character was (remember, these was made by uber nerds, in their basement, who decided to universally call every character she)... but it was a useless dump stat until it was made a primary casting stat for spontaneous casters in 3e. now its a useless dump stat that is situationally useful.

The thing is, DnD has never considered verisimilitude. they didn't try to model anything, they tried to make a system, then balance it, then come up with flimsy explanation to what it actually means.
Charisma, Wisdom, and Intelligence are not clearly defined. Its best to just not think about it.

[Kurald Galain]

In how it is (roleplay wise) a casting stat?

The decision to have charisma-based casting in 3E does not appear to have anything to do with "roleplay-wise", but rather to be a design team effort to make charisma more useful as a stat.

[magic9mushroom]

That doesn't make sense, force of will (willpower) is wisdom.

Wisdom and Charisma are closely interrelated.

[Comet]

Question!

I only own the core 3.5 books, so one thing has been bothering me about this whole "force of personality/will" thing.

What do psionic characters use to manifest their powers?

I'd imagine they would be similar to sorcerers, as in bending reality through their power of self or something like that. Is it so? Are there intelligent, wise and charismatic psions, separated by their main attribute?

What makes sorceres different from psions?
Just some thoughts. Again, I don't own any of the extra material for 3.5, so I'm just going with what I know of mind-over-matter traditions in storytelling in general.

[The Rose Dragon]

I'd imagine they would be similar to sorcerers, as in bending reality through their power of self or something like that. Is it so? Are there intelligent, wise and charismatic psions, separated by their main attribute?

In XPH, psions use Intelligence, psychic warriors use Wisdom while Wilders use Charisma.

[Saph]

Someone said this once on these boards. I forget who it was, or I'd credit him/her appropriately.

"Wisdom is your download speed. Int is your processing power. Cha is your upload speed."

Me. Can't claim credit for it though, I copied it from someone else in turn. :smalltongue:

[Yora]

What do psionic characters use to manifest their powers?

I'd imagine they would be similar to sorcerers, as in bending reality through their power of self or something like that. Is it so? Are there intelligent, wise and charismatic psions, separated by their main attribute?

What makes sorceres different from psions?
Just some thoughts. Again, I don't own any of the extra material for 3.5, so I'm just going with what I know of mind-over-matter traditions in storytelling in general.
Psions are the psionic wizards. The role of psionic sorcerers is filled by wilders.
As I see it, psions approach manifesting logically. Keep calm and concentrate.
Wilders do it mostly emotionally, which is why they know fewer powers but can manifesting them with much more power. They simply really want things to happen and focus their desire to manifest a selected power.


Wisdom and Charisma are closely interrelated.
I'd say Wisdom is understanding of non-logical situations and intuition. It affects will saves because it helps you to be more aware if your thoughts and emotions are not wholly your own but affected by an outside scource, which makes it easier to resist them. Or in the case of mundane fear, the ability to understand that there's no need to panic and you can approach the situation calmly.

[AslanCross]

Wisdom and Charisma are closely interrelated.

I think this misconception comes from the confusing willpower/force of personality terminology. As has been mentioned above, I think Wisdom is more self-awareness and perception, while Charisma is the ability to impose on others.



Me. Can't claim credit for it though, I copied it from someone else in turn. :smalltongue:

Oh, there we go. I see. Well, at least I remember now. Somewhat.


Anyway, I think my theory is kind of lacking in the psionics department. While it's consistent with the Wilder strong-arming reality into conforming with the power of his mind, I can't explain why the Psion and PsyWar are Int- and Wis-based, respectively.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

In d20 systems, your physical and mental ability scores are mirrors of each other.

Charisma = Strength
How you affect other things. Your power.
Intelligence = Dexterity
How quickly you react. Your accuracy.
Wisdom = Constitution
How you resist things. Your health.

That's what Charisma is in D&D: The mental melee stat.

If anything, Wisdom is a stranger casting ability than Charisma.

[Devils_Advocate]

Psions are Int-based because they're users of pychic powers. They're mutants who use their big, meaty brains to think at things so hard that they move around or burst into flames or whatever.


What do psionic characters use to manifest their powers?
Their minds. They don't all use the same manifesting stat any more than all spellcasters use the same casting stat. It would make more sense if each power source had its own stat (or multiple stat dependencies) and it own distinct mechanics (or, alternately, everything used the same unified mechanics... which is probably why 4E works like that), but no such luck.

(Arcane magic ought to involve Dexterity, really, because arcane spell failure as it stands doesn't make sense.)


What makes sorceres different from psions?
Well, Sorcerers can potentially be made more powerful because they use the same spell list that Wizards do, and Wizard spells are somewhat better than Psion powers. But Wizards can be made even more powerful than Sorcerers. Meanwhile, Psions are better than Sorcerers at being flexibly spontaneous and at being different from Wizards, despite using the same ability score as Wizards. So Sorcerers were subpar for the powerful arcanist role to start with, and with the addition of Psions they also become subpar at the flavorful spontaneous full caster role, and then Warmages and Dread Necromancers and Beguilers were introduced and Sorcerers just curled up in a corner and cried.

Anyway, most of the rules from the Expanded Psionics Handbook are in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/), so you could read them if you're interested. Most of the fluff is missing from there, of course.


Psions are the psionic wizards. The role of psionic sorcerers is filled by wilders.
That's misleading. Given that power points are even more generic than Sorcerer spell slots, Psions are further in the basic direction of Sorcerers from Wizards than Sorcerers are. Wilders are more like Battle Sorcerers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer).


I'd say Wisdom is understanding of non-logical situations and intuition.
Situations aren't logical or non-logical.

[Eldan]

If that was directed at me. No not really (vancian system never made sense to me). I just want to know what charisma is, and linking it with magic is the easiest way to dissect it.

I explain the vancian system like this:

Imagine, if you will, the great flow of magic.

Some say it is an entity, capable of thought of it's own, but so grand in scale that even the greatest gods barely scratch it's surface. Some call it the Serpent.

Others say it's creation's most fundamental force, the one power which holds everything else together. The thing that existed first, before even the raw elements came into existence, and that will long exist when all other energy has yielded to entropy.

How, then, do wizards tame this force, impose their will on it and force it to do their bidding? They don't.

They tear small pieces away from the greater whole. They take a cup or a bucket of power away from the river of magic. They bind it up in formulas and sigils, and imprison it in their heads.

These small pieces, called spells, by wizards, try to reunite with the greater flow. A wizard is constantly fighting a battle in his head, to keep a handful of semi-concious entities under control.

And then he releases them. He allows them a narrow path of escape, gives them the option to rejoin the flow of magic, in exchange for changing the world the way he wants it to be changed. He releases them as balls of fire and bolts of lightning, and they take the chance, willing to do everything to regain their freedom.

And you wondered why so many wizards become cackling madmen.

[Caphi]

I'm playing a sorceror in a party with a wizard.

Yes, it's viable. It's Pathfinder, for one thing. The wizard isn't pushing the wizard class, for another, since both the other player and I tend to be very comfortable in low Tier 2, defining a style and building on it instead of doing everything. Plus, the characters complement each other really well in RP.

Anyway.

It's odd the way the characters see magic. The wizard, of course, came from an Academy. She's studied the theoretical workings of all her spells, even she can't actually cast yet. The character concept buys straight into the idea of spells as equations or formulae. Every spell has a structure, and otherwise, the entire system falls apart like a proof with a bad axiom.

I don't think my character actually knows how Vancian works. There is an idea there that there are only so many things she can do, but she thinks of them all as "this thing you can do with illusions" or "I can shoot lightning". She has a very dim idea of what each Vancian spell package is, she just flicks her hand and desires, and hopefully, magic comes out resembling what she wanted to happen. From my side, all the sorceror casting rules are followed, but for her, it's more fluid. Or possibly just beyond her grasp.

Anyway, that's what I think is the difference between intelligence casting and charisma casting.

[NeoVid]

That doesn't make sense, force of will (willpower) is wisdom.

Defensive force of will is Wisdom. Imposing your will, even with magic, is Charisma.