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EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-13, 09:59 PM
I'm playing in a fairly high-powered Pathfinder campaign (we're porting over splatbooks on a case-by-case basis), and I'm looking to combine the Dwarven Defender and Deepstone Sentinel (ToB) into a single 10-level prestige class. I'd like to preserve the following from each:

Deepstone Sentinel fancy-schmancy magic powers (Mountain Fortress Stance et. al)
Maneuver access (Stone Dragon, Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart)
Full BAB
d12 HD
Dodge bonus and DR from DD
Some form of Defensive Stance, adjusted to allow 5ft steps like Stone Dragon stances, possibly as a bonus stance or integrated into the Deepstone Sentinel's Mountain Fortress Stance
CON mod to AC - NEW
Throw Down the Gauntlet (working name) - Expend a readied (Stone Dragon?) maneuver to duplicate a Knight's Challenge or something similar; Will save DC to resist = 10 + level of expended maneuver + CON. Must be recharged like a martial maneuver (as per character's recovery method).

Entry Reqs would be something along these lines:
Dwarf
Lawful alignment
BAB +7 or +5
Proficient with heavy armor
Stone Power or Power Attack
Shards of Granite
Toughness?
2 Stone Dragon maneuvers and 1 Stone Dragon Stance
Something else?

What do you think of this concept? Would it be feasible and able to be balanced? Balance concerns are in comparison to higher-power classes; casters, rogues, etc. It's still essentially a wall (5' mobility only, heavy armor), but it's a darn strong one.

Thanks!
E3

HunterOfJello
2010-03-13, 10:15 PM
I don't know much about Pathfinder, but I do understand ToB pretty well so lets see...


Stone Power looks like a useless feat tax. Normally the Deepstone Sentinel requires Stone Power OR Power Attack. Stone Power is really only useful at low levels, whereas Power Attack scales much better. If Pathfinder has Power Attack then I would add the option between the two feats. Also, Stone Power is only useful if your character has levels as a Crusaders since the mechanic works well with the Delayed Damage Pool. Warblades, Swordsages and Crusaders each have access to the Stone Dragon school, so having a feat requirement of Stone Power would be an annoying and unnecessary feat tax.


One of the reasons why the Deepstone Sentinel stops at 5 levels is because the Stone Dragon maneuvers really aren't that great compared to the other disciplines. You could always give him access to the 3 Crusader disciplines (Stone Dragon, White Raven and Devoted Spirit) and make the character more like a Crusader.

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-13, 10:30 PM
Stone Power as a feat tax is sort of the idea, actually, since DD has two useless feats. I'll change it to allow either one, since DS does. PA has been nerfed severely in Pathfinder, unfortunately.

I'm sorely tempted to add Devoted Spirit to this, as you suggested; it fits the flavor of a stalwart bastion of defense very well. I might stick White Raven in, but I'm leaving Iron Heart too.

Overall, this seems to you to be a reasonable premise?

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-13, 10:42 PM
Drop Toughness and Dodge. Stone Power does Toughness much better, and Dodge doesn't make sense (it implies moving out of the attack's way, rather than simply blocking it or absorbing it). Instead, add Shards of Granite (a feat that's actually OK and may actually come in handy).


The big thing is that Stone Dragon stances allow Full Movement or 5ft steps. If you take a full move, you have to spend your Swift action afterwards to re-enter the stance (which is denying you the ability to use Boosts, or counters if you used one last round). If not, 5ft step is all you get.

An ability like Knight's Challenge (expend a Stone Dragon maneuver, force target creature to attack you) would also be nice, as it makes the class seem like a Knight/Crusader Dual Advancement class in addition to the normal abilities. It would also make acting like a wall much easier.

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-13, 11:00 PM
I made most of your suggested changes; I'm leaving Toughness (with a ? now) because it's from the original DD and because it's essentially Improved Toughness in PF (as it should be). I like requiring Shards of Granite. The challenge-type ability (working title: Throw Down the Gauntlet?) is quite good; should probably vary in DC to resist or in penalty for ignoring dependent on the level of the expended maneuver.

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-14, 06:00 PM
Anything else? Is this balanceable? What sort of progression seems fair? I'll sketch out a table when I've got a little more information and feedback.

I posted this on WotC forums and got this response:
I think you need to actually give up or reduce several of those things in order for it to be balanced. This is looking worse than Ninja of the Crescent Moon. Did you actually give up anything from the two classes there? Is this supposed to be a gestalt prestige class? Because that’s basically what it seems to be, you took the best stuff from both classes, then thought it wasn’t enough and made defensive stance better and got rid of the Endurance pre-req! Speaking of pre-reqs, making them high does not go far in justifying more powerful prestige class features, and since you’re using a MUCH better form of Toughness than the 3E writers intended Dwarven Defender to need, you’re not even really sacrificing much. So, let’s see…

"Deepstone Sentinel fancy-schmancy magic powers (Mountain Fortress Stance et. al)
Maneuver access (Stone Dragon, and possibly Iron Heart)
Full BAB
d12 HD
Dodge bonus and DR from defender
Some form of Defensive Stance, adjusted to allow 5ft steps like Stone Dragon stances
(Possibly as a bonus stance, or integrated into the Deepstone Sentinel's Mountain Fortress Stance)
Some sort of CON-to-AC ability would be really nice, but maybe too good
(perhaps not when compared to Sor/Wiz/Clr/Drd)"

Nerf that a bit...

Deepstone Sentinel fancy-schmancy magic powers (Mountain Fortress Stance et. al)
Extremely limited Maneuver access (Stone Dragon and Iron Heart, acquired with a very poor progression: over the 10 levels, 2 maneuvers, 3 at the most, gained, 1 stance and 1 maneuver readied gained)
Full BAB
d10 HD
2 + int skill points with a list that would make a Fighter cry (only 4 skills, like the Defender's list, one of which MUST be Balance, given the disciplines. I'd go with: Balance, Climb, Craft, Jump)
One good save (fort or will, you pick)
No Dodge bonus; DR from defender is gained 1 point at a time, every 3rd level in the class (DR 3 at level 9 to cap it)
Defensive Stance (levels 1, 5, and 9 for total of 3/day), adjusted to allow 5ft steps like Stone Dragon stances. Defensive Stance does not grant +4 dodge AC as it does for Defender. At level 8, gain Mobile Defense, adding +4 dodge AC while using Defensive stance (In other words, instead of having x from first level and gaining y at level 8, with this class you can 5 ft step all along but lack the dodge bonus until level 8).
Some sort of CON-to-AC ability would be really nice, but definitely too good, so no, not happening.

Requirements:
Dwarf.
BAB +7 (Need to check Deeptone Sentinel, I recall it requiring BAB +10, in which case so will this class)
Lawful alignment
Feats: Toughness (PF version), Endurance, Dodge, Stone Power
2 Stone Dragon maneuvers, 1 Stone Dragon stance
Skills: Balance 10 ranks, Up The Hill skill trick [C.Scoundrel] (optional)
(If you want to add more pre-reqs than that, some feats to consider: Shards of Granite tactical feat; Mountain Warrior [Races of Stone]. I think 4 feats is probably enough, though.)

That's a good start to making the fusion balanced, may need a few more baseball bat swings to the kneecaps, but I think I beat it down to a manageable pulp.

PinkysBrain
2010-03-14, 06:36 PM
Extremely limited Maneuver access (Stone Dragon and Iron Heart, acquired with a very poor progression: over the 10 levels, 2 maneuvers, 3 at the most, gained, 1 stance and 1 maneuver readied gained)
I'd go for 3 new manoeuvres, 2 extra readied (no stance, that's what mountain fortress is for).

Full BAB
d10 HD
2 + int skill points with a list that would make a Fighter cry (only 4 skills, like the Defender's list, one of which MUST be Balance, given the disciplines. I'd go with: Balance, Climb, Craft, Jump)
I agree mostly, but I would just use the deepstone sentinel skill list.

One good save (fort or will, you pick)
Fort, it's a martial prestige class and martial prestige classes get fort.


No Dodge bonus; DR from defender is gained 1 point at a time, every 3rd level in the class (DR 3 at level 9 to cap it)
Defensive Stance (levels 1, 5, and 9 for total of 3/day), adjusted to allow 5ft steps like Stone Dragon stances. Defensive Stance does not grant +4 dodge AC as it does for Defender. At level 8, gain Mobile Defense, adding +4 dodge AC while using Defensive stance (In other words, instead of having x from first level and gaining y at level 8, with this class you can 5 ft step all along but lack the dodge bonus until level 8).
Some sort of CON-to-AC ability would be really nice, but definitely too good, so no, not happening.
I don't see the point in adding another defensive stance, that's what mountain fortress is for.

How about this : mountain fortress stance gets all the benefits of Defensive Stance except the dodge bonus, instead add con to AC capped at 1/2 class level in mountain fortress stance.

DR at half class level, regardless of stance, starting at DR/1 at level 1.

Spread the existing deepstone sentinel abilities over the 10 levels, instead of knights challenge how about something like this :

Avenging Avalanche : whenever an enemy attacks an ally or targets him with a spell you can as an immediate action transform your fortress into an avalanche of rocks and make a charge attack on the enemy, you and anyone caught in the path takes 2d6 bludgeoning damage (subject to damage resistance). You retain the benefits of your Mountain Fortress Stance.

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-14, 09:21 PM
I'm not sure how I feel about Avenging Avalanche; I like it, but I'm not 100% sold mechanically.

I like the idea of putting Defensive Stance into Mountain Fortress Stance; perhaps like this:

Defensive Stance (Level 1): You can, as a swift action, forego the benefits of any Stone Dragon stance to assume a defensive posture that grants you +2 to Strength, +4 to Constitution, a +2 resistance bonus on all saves, and bonus to AC equal to your Constitution modifier, to a maximum of 1/2 your class level. You lose the benefits of Defensive Stance if you move more than a 5' step, reactivating whatever stance was previously in effect.

Mountain Fortress Stance (Level 3): While in your Defensive stance, you gain the benefits of Mountain Fortress Stance (as DS; I don't have the book in front of me).

Damage Reduction equal to 1/2 class level, rounded down (1 at level 2, 2 at level 4, etc.); 1 stance gained at level 5, 3 maneuvers (3, 6, 9 probably), 2 readied (4 and 8), good Fort, full BAB, 2+INT skills (Acrobatics, Craft, Intimidate(?), Perception, Sense Motive), Dodge Bonus as DD

I'll work up more of a progression when I've got my book; I lent it to a friend last week.

Thanks for the feedback; it's been incredibly useful!

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-15, 10:00 PM
I'm hoping to get a table up this weekend, but in the meantime is there any more critique feasible without more information?

DragoonWraith
2010-03-15, 10:04 PM
Be careful that you don't copy the Knight's Test of Mettle ability exactly - it has the huge limitation of ending if your target is attacked by anyone else in your party. That's... lame.

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-15, 10:25 PM
Agreed. I'll also likely limit it to once/encounter for balance concerns.
EDIT: Likely, save will be Will, DC 10+level of maneuver expended+CON, and it can be recharged like any maneuver.
Cutting White Raven.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-15, 10:31 PM
I'm playing in a fairly high-powered Pathfinder campaign (we're porting over splatbooks on a case-by-case basis), and I'm looking to combine the Dwarven Defender and Deepstone Sentinel (ToB) into a single 10-level prestige class. I'd like to preserve the following from each:

Deepstone Sentinel fancy-schmancy magic powers (Mountain Fortress Stance et. al)
Maneuver access (Stone Dragon, Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart, White Raven)
Full BAB
d12 HD
Dodge bonus and DR from DD
Some form of Defensive Stance, adjusted to allow 5ft steps like Stone Dragon stances, possibly as a bonus stance or integrated into the Deepstone Sentinel's Mountain Fortress Stance
CON mod to AC - NEW
Throw Down the Gauntlet (working name) - Expend a readied (Stone Dragon?) maneuver to duplicate a Knight's Challenge or something similar; effect or DC to resist increases based on level of expended maneuver. Perhaps automatic once/encounter on initiation of Defensive-Stance-type ability at later levels - NEW

Entry Reqs would be something along these lines:
Dwarf
Lawful alignment
BAB +7 or +5
Proficient with heavy armor
Stone Power or Power Attack
Shards of Granite
Toughness?
2 Stone Dragon maneuvers and 1 Stone Dragon Stance
Something else?

What do you think of this concept? Would it be feasible and able to be balanced? Balance concerns are in comparison to higher-power classes; casters, rogues, etc. It's still essentially a wall (5' mobility only, heavy armor), but it's a darn strong one.

Thanks!
E3

What? Rogues are only a tier above fighters, and not comparable towards casters. Also I worry that you are putting a bit too much into it, but I can't say for now.

Also, shouldn't this be in the Homebrew forum?

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-15, 10:40 PM
PF rogues got quite a bit, actually, so I'm not sure that's still an accurate assessment. And it's not a finished creation; I'm still brainstorming and doing preliminary "can this be balanced?" work. I'll put it in Homebrew when I have a table with progressions figured out. The OP has been growing as I get more feedback, but there used to be far less than this and I didn't feel it was ready to go there yet.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-15, 10:48 PM
PF rogues got quite a bit, actually, so I'm not sure that's still an accurate assessment. And it's not a finished creation; I'm still brainstorming and doing preliminary "can this be balanced?" work. I'll put it in Homebrew when I have a table with progressions figured out. The OP has been growing as I get more feedback, but there used to be far less than this and I didn't feel it was ready to go there yet.

Meh, no more than the fighter got, most rogue talents suck, although the sneak attack changes were a big help. Relative power level is still the same IMO.

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-15, 10:58 PM
I find the sneak attack changes (namely that you can SA just about anything now) pretty major, myself (better than the fighter's changes); but I guess it's a matter of opinion. Either way, I'd welcome any critique you have on this outline to help me formulate a progression this week/end.

PinkysBrain
2010-03-16, 05:41 AM
The advantage of avalanche over a challenge mechanic is that you can still move around a bit occasionally ...

With a challenge mechanic you will be forced to make an effective ranged combatant, because you will be engaging mostly in ranged combat from your mountain fortress (unless you just want to say "I take full cover behind my tower shield" a lot).

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-16, 06:02 PM
I hadn't thought of it that way. I'd forgotten that Mettle allows ranged attacks. I'll definitely be looking into placing that in the progression, then. Thanks!

jiriku
2010-03-16, 06:26 PM
You seem to have cemented most of the major mechanics already, so my advice may come a bit late, but I can offer a modification I've made to the defensive stance.

IMC, defensive stance requires you to take full defense or fight defensively each round, or the stance drops. This allows you to move up to 20 feet per round (or 15 feet in the massive dwarven heavy armors), but it's impossible to double-move or run. You retain some limited mobility, while still mechanically being locked into a defensive mindset. Also, I increased the strength benefit of defensive stance from +2 to +6. The addition helps absorb the to-hit penalty of fighting defensively and improve the platform's damage potential, which is otherwise rather poor because of the limitations of sword-and-board.

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-16, 06:58 PM
You're not too late at all! I like it very much, actually; I'll take that into account. Thanks!

Pechvarry
2010-03-16, 08:41 PM
Nitpicks:


IMC, defensive stance requires you to take full defense or fight defensively each round, or the stance drops. This allows you to move up to 20 feet per round (or 15 feet in the massive dwarven heavy armors), but it's impossible to double-move or run.

Dwarven land speed is unaffected by armor or load size.

Also, I keep seeing mention of "defensive stance, but able to take 5' moves". DD does eventually get Mobile Defense which allows it to do just that.

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-16, 09:48 PM
Mountain Plate (RoS) limits even a dwarf's speed.

Mobile Defense is to little and too late to make the class useful, frankly. I'm aiming to grant that immediately and possibly improve it later.

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-17, 04:07 PM
Avenging Avalanche: Whenever an enemy attacks an ally or targets him with a spell that does no also target you, you can as an immediate action transform your fortress into an avalanche of rocks and make a charge attack on that enemy. This charge must be in a straight line, and provokes attacks of opportunity if applicable, although you can charge through occupied squares by making an Overrun attempt (this does not provoke additional attacks of opportunity). Anyone caught in the path takes 2d6 bludgeoning damage with no save. You lose the benefits of your Mountain Fortress Stance after resolving the charge attack. This ability must be recharged as though it were a martial maneuver (as per the usual recharge mechanic of your highest-level initiator class).

Level 8?

Eldariel
2010-03-17, 04:30 PM
Mountain Plate (RoS) limits even a dwarf's speed.

Mobile Defense is to little and too late to make the class useful, frankly. I'm aiming to grant that immediately and possibly improve it later.

Mechanus Gear [PlH] does not tho! It's teh ultimate Dwarfmor. Composite AC of +10 and Max Dex +0, just like a Dwarf likes it!

jiriku
2010-03-17, 04:37 PM
Avenging Avalanche: Whenever an enemy attacks an ally or targets him with a spell that does no also target you, you can as an immediate action transform your fortress into an avalanche of rocks and make a charge attack on that enemy. This charge must be in a straight line, and provokes attacks of opportunity if applicable, although you can charge through occupied squares by making an Overrun attempt (this does not provoke additional attacks of opportunity). Anyone caught in the path takes 2d6 bludgeoning damage with no save. You lose the benefits of your Mountain Fortress Stance after resolving the charge attack. This ability must be recharged as though it were a martial maneuver (as per the usual recharge mechanic of your highest-level initiator class).

Level 8?

Nice! If it's intended to be a frequently used attack, however, it should include Strength bonus to damage and probably deal a lot more damage. As is, it's less dangerous to the victim than charging Minotaur, which is a first-level maneuver.

Or you could simply give them dungeoncrasher. I did. Crunchy.

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-18, 06:14 PM
Heh, I completely forgot about that maneuver (as I mentioned above, my copy of ToB is lent out at the moment). I might scratch this entirely, then, as a 1st-level maneuver is better.

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-20, 03:11 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146028
Posted in Homebrew with full progression; please come critique.

PinkysBrain
2010-03-20, 04:10 PM
The idea behind the avalanche was to give you a limited way to move around the battlefield at full speed to defend party members without losing the benefit of mountain fortress stance, even though your "normal" max speed is 5 feet.

Charging Minotaur really won't do you much good at 5 feet speed.

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-25, 07:46 PM
Frankly, I don't feel you should be able to move more than 5 feet and retain MFS under any circumstances. Defensive Stance, maybe; but having a giant mountain move with you when you charge 40ft is even more ridiculous than the other abilities.

Technically, you could initiate Charging Minotaur in these stances, but you'd forfeit their benefits. Overbearing Protector (other thread) is about as far as I'm willing to go; I'm curious to see if you have any problems with it (or anything else in the class)—over there, though; please.