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Gov2win
2010-03-14, 12:32 AM
So are there any particularly worthwhile ones?
I mean Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil exists, but is it solid?

AngelisBlack
2010-03-14, 12:35 AM
Exalted Arcanist is a good one. Spontaneous casting of santified spells adds tons of versatility. Also, it allows use of Planar Ally, because you don't want to piss off every outsider you summon beforehand with planar binding.

HunterOfJello
2010-03-14, 12:38 AM
So are there any particularly worthwhile ones?
I mean Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil exists, but is it solid?


Considering that the Sorcerer receives no benefits whatsoever for not taking a prestige class, of course.


Solo's Stupendously Superior Sorcerer Stratagems (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2180.0) has plenty of good suggestions. I'd also check out the wizard handbooks for PrC suggestions.


Any PrC that has Full Spellcasting Progression and low requirements is worth taking for the most part.

Geiger Counter
2010-03-14, 12:39 AM
The wild mage is good if you take practiced spellcaster, a really cheap move I know.

Also I house rule that sorcerers get the same bonus feats as wizards and gain 3+their level in skill points for use magic device. I don't see why the rogue, a mundane class should be better with magic items than real spell casters.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-14, 12:48 AM
So are there any particularly worthwhile ones?
I mean Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil exists, but is it solid?


Iot7V is one of the more potent PrCs (it stands near the very top, and only exceeded by PrCs like Shadowcraft Mage or Planar Shepherd).

Thurbane
2010-03-14, 01:19 AM
I like Wild Mage and Fatespinner (first 4 levels, anyway).

Fiend Blooded is nice, if you use a workaround for the skill prereqs.

Sand Shaper will vastly increase your spells known.

Corey
2010-03-14, 01:21 AM
Incantrix, unfortunately, is a little hard to pull off, by which I mean the Spellcraft rolls are hard. But it's not totally out of the question if you play a Spellscale, who get an optional char level/2 bonus to Spellcraft via the Io meditation.

It probably costs 2 feats, however -- Iron Will for sure, and probably Skill Focus (Spellcraft) as well, plus 10K gp for Crystal Goggles of Spellcraft (the most logical form factor I could think of for what is a custom magic item).

Pluto
2010-03-14, 02:02 AM
So are there any particularly worthwhile ones?
Plenty.

Are you looking for anything in particular?

Corey
2010-03-14, 02:22 AM
Fatespinner doesn't give you much except a couple of rerolls, but those are cool.

Paragnostic Apostle is a win, for 1 or more levels depending on your style of spellcasting.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-14, 02:28 AM
So are there any particularly worthwhile ones?
I mean Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil exists, but is it solid?

The Big Four Wizard PrCs (Tainted Scholar, Shadowcraft Mage, Metaphysical Spellshaper and Incantatrix) are all still awesome, though Incantatrix kinda loses out because of the lost Int synergy. Shadowcraft Mage goes up in power quite a bit for a Sorc, because it gives you flexibility.

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is still useful on the defensive, though now you can't autoqualify through Master Specialist.

Mindbender is still a good PrC, the whole level of it.

All the random full-casting PrCs I haven't mentioned are still full-casting and therefore better than Sorcerer levels.

Mage of the Arcane Order is one that's very nice for Sorcerers specifically.

Corey
2010-03-14, 02:38 AM
Mage of the Arcane Order is one that's very nice for Sorcerers specifically.

As written, it only works for prepared casters. Has it been errataed?

tyckspoon
2010-03-14, 02:42 AM
Fatespinner doesn't give you much except a couple of rerolls, but those are cool.


It also costs almost nothing to get in, so why not.. the only really strong reason I can think of not to take it is that you're already pursuing levels of a different PrC. Which you probably are, as Fatespinner requires 4th level spells.. unless you were dipping something else (Mindbender?) you're probably working on one of the many PrCs that only need 3rd level spells.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-14, 02:52 AM
As written, it only works for prepared casters. Has it been errataed?

No, but Arcane Preparation exists. Hooray for cheese!

Eldariel
2010-03-14, 07:00 AM
Fatespinner doesn't give you much except a couple of rerolls, but those are cool.

It's very powerful. Rerolls are exceedingly important in not dying to 1s and being able to manipulate numbers in anything just kicks ass. Don't take level 5 and you're good.


And yeah, Arcane Prep was printed in the same book as MoTAO so I'd wager it was intended to give Sorcs a bone. Very good. Also, Sandshaper is similarly great for Sorcs to expand their spells known.


And Incantatrix; Spellcraft can be pumped by cohorts, hirelings, spells, feats (Item Familiar, for example), etc. While it takes a bit more effort for a Wizard, Sorcerer Incantatrixes are almost as insane, especially since if your game allows Incantatrix, you should have quite an easy access to various skill boosters too.

Nidogg
2010-03-14, 09:22 AM
If you want trippy augments, wings ect, then dragon disciples are awesome cos of nat arm and d12 HD. Pact master (from dragon maginc) is good for spell like abilitysthat can be useful, Dragon magic is generaly awesome for those of scorceraly persuasion. Also Malconvoker for those summoners who says a feindish army cant serve good?

Octopus Jack
2010-03-14, 09:27 AM
If you want trippy augments, wings ect, then dragon disciples are awesome cos of nat arm and d12 HD. Pact master (from dragon maginc) is good for spell like abilitysthat can be useful, Dragon magic is generaly awesome for those of scorceraly persuasion. Also Malconvoker for those summoners who says a feindish army cant serve good?

Dragon Diciples no caster level increase
Pact bound adept you have to sacrifice 2 caster levels for not great abilities
Malconvoker requires knowledge (the planes) so has the same problem as fiend blooded

The Dark Fiddler
2010-03-14, 09:55 AM
If you want trippy augments, wings ect, then dragon disciples are awesome cos of nat arm and d12 HD.

Not at all. Dragon Disciple isn't bad flavor-wise and could have been done well, but as-is it sucks because it doesn't progress casting at all (except like... 4 bonus spells). Of course, if it DID progress casting, then it would probably be great for gishes, what with the stat boosts and natural armor and everything.

Glimbur
2010-03-14, 12:02 PM
I've found classes like Initiate of the Sevenfold Veils and Loremaster annoying for sorcerers because they want you to have a certain number of spells from a certain school. I just don't want that many abjurations, thanks anyway.

That said, PrC's are almost always better than continuing in the base class, so take Divine Oracle or something. There are lots of choices.

Petrocorus
2010-03-14, 01:58 PM
The Big Four Wizard PrCs (Tainted Scholar, Shadowcraft Mage, Metaphysical Spellshaper and Incantatrix) are all still awesome, though Incantatrix kinda loses out because of the lost Int synergy. Shadowcraft Mage goes up in power quite a bit for a Sorc, because it gives you flexibility.


What is Metaphysical Spellshaper? What book does it comes from?

And by the way, why are the Shadowcraft Mage so powerful? Their abilities to mimic other spell? but it seems to be limited by the %?

Gametime
2010-03-14, 02:07 PM
Metaphysical Spellshaper is from the Book of Erotic Fantasy. It lets you apply metamagic to spells by taking ability damage instead of increasing spell level. Yeah.

Whoever would have thought that one of the most broken Wizard prestige classes of all time would be in that book?

The Glyphstone
2010-03-14, 02:07 PM
What is Metaphysical Spellshaper? What book does it comes from?

And by the way, why are the Shadowcraft Mage so powerful? Their abilities to mimic other spell? but it seems to be limited by the %?

Because 1 spell plus a feat (Silent Image + Heighten Spell) gives you access to 2 entire schools of magic (Evocation+Conjuration), easily at 100% realism. With a little bit of cheese, you can get spells that are more than 100% real, meaning they take extra damage if they disbelieve successfully. With a bit more cheese, it's possible to get 9th level spells, and if you take Arcane Disciple (Luck), you can now cast Miracles for free*

*This is the top-end of Shadowcraft Cheese, and is frequently disputed as to its legality. Use with caution.

Gnorman
2010-03-14, 02:38 PM
Malconvoker requires knowledge (the planes) so has the same problem as fiend blooded

Malconvoker requires 4 ranks in Knowledge (the planes). That's honestly not too difficult to pull off. Bluff as a class skill helps, too. You'll really only need Concentration, Knowledge (the planes), and Bluff, but Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) aren't bad to have either. Being human or having 12 INT or higher should cover your skill requirements.

I highly recommend it for the increase in versatility it offers (don't have a spell on your list? You can most likely summon something that can cast it. Need an obscure skill? You can summon something with more ranks than you can shake a stick at. Need to kill something? You're a summoner. This is kind of your thing.) and the fact that it practically oozes with flavor. Automatic plot hooks abound. Plus, as a sorcerer, you'll actually have the CHA to make the planar bindings more palatable.

Petrocorus
2010-03-14, 03:06 PM
Because 1 spell plus a feat (Silent Image + ) gives you access to 2 entire schools of magic (Evocation+Conjuration), easily at 100% realism. With a little bit of cheese, you can get spells that are more than 100% real, meaning they take extra damage if they disbelieve successfully. With a bit more cheese, it's possible to get 9th level spells, and if you take Arcane Disciple (Luck), you can now cast Miracles for free*

*This is the top-end of Shadowcraft Cheese, and is frequently disputed as to its legality. Use with caution.

So the combo is to use Heighten Spell to cast silent image as a 8th lvl spell to fake a Delayed Blast Fireball with 80% efficiency upgrade to 100% by the lvl 5 feature. That's it?

Gnorman
2010-03-14, 03:15 PM
So the combo is to use Heighten Spell to cast silent image as a 8th lvl spell to fake a Delayed Blast Fireball with 80% efficiency upgrade to 100% by the lvl 5 feature. That's it?

That's the gist. It gets worse, of course, but that's the basic idea.

Gametime
2010-03-14, 04:39 PM
So the combo is to use Heighten Spell to cast silent image as a 8th lvl spell to fake a Delayed Blast Fireball with 80% efficiency upgrade to 100% by the lvl 5 feature. That's it?

Basically, except replace Delayed Blast Fireball with any 7th level Evocation spell (or nearly any 7th level Conjuration spell) that doesn't suck.

Being able to cast almost all of the spells from two schools using one spell is extremely powerful for a wizard. That's nearly as much versatility as a sorcerer has by virtue of their entire spells known list. At the cost of one spell slot, you now have dozens of viable spells at your disposal.

Earth Spell (conveniently also from Races of Stone) also lets you use Silent Image as an 8th level spell to cast an 8th level spell, as long as you aren't flying. A bit restrictive, but another significant boost in power.

The Glyphstone
2010-03-14, 04:53 PM
So the combo is to use Heighten Spell to cast silent image as a 8th lvl spell to fake a Delayed Blast Fireball with 80% efficiency upgrade to 100% by the lvl 5 feature. That's it?

Or, say, a Shadow Forcecage, 100% real without the material component cost. Or a 9th level spell slot for a Shadow Meteor Swarm that's 110% real if they disbelieve it, 130% if you have Dragon Magazine and the Enhanced Shadow reality feat (+20% damage for Shadow evocations).

It's not that you're getting extra damage in most cases, it's that you've saved yourself the need to ever know or memorize another Evocation spell ever, and most Conjuration spells. That's a ton of money saved, even skipping material component shenanigans. And if you go all out cheese-hog with Shadow Miracles, now you also have every cleric spell of 8th level or lower in existence at your fingertips.

ChakraChanter
2010-03-14, 05:43 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but I don't quite fully understand the Shadowcraft Mage. So if you use Heighten Spell on any of the following: silent image, minor image, major image, persistent image, and programmed image; it will become any spell of conjuration or evocation of the (Heightened Spell level -1) with 10% per spell level plus another 20%?

Thurbane
2010-03-14, 05:46 PM
Not at all. Dragon Disciple isn't bad flavor-wise and could have been done well, but as-is it sucks because it doesn't progress casting at all (except like... 4 bonus spells). Of course, if it DID progress casting, then it would probably be great for gishes, what with the stat boosts and natural armor and everything.
The PF version has 7/10 caster progression.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/dragon-desciple

magic9mushroom
2010-03-15, 06:16 AM
What is Metaphysical Spellshaper? What book does it comes from?

And by the way, why are the Shadowcraft Mage so powerful? Their abilities to mimic other spell? but it seems to be limited by the %?

I got massively ninjaed here, but:

Metaphysical Spellshaper is Book of Erotic Fantasy.

1st level: You can take any kind of ability damage in lieu of increasing spell levels for metamagic.

2nd level: Free metamagic feat.

3rd level: Improved Metamagic, as the epic feat or Incantatrix/Dweomerkeeper capstone.

Not all THAT bad when you compare it to Shadowcraft Mage or Tainted Scholar, but you can cheese your way into it at level 2. So it doesn't cost you any PrC levels. That's where it gets bad.



As for Shadowcraft Mage, Shadow Illusion is already extremely versatile, but if you stack on Earth Spell (heighten gives you +1 spell level), the Incantatrix capstone, the Metaphysical Spellshaper capstone, and Easy Metamagic (Heighten) you suddenly can make an Xth level spell slot count as an (X+4)th level spell, allowing you to mimic 9th level spells out of a 6th level slot. Now add Residual Metamagic, and you can now chuck an Empowered Maximised Repeated Twinned Energy Admixtured Quickened Meteor Swarm out of a 3rd level slot. Add Arcane Disciple and Echoing Spell and you can cast a hundred Miracles a day with no XP cost.

Shadowcraft Mage is one of those things that's only "useful" out of the box (it is a full casting PrC, after all) but which can be broken extremely badly if you try.

Petrocorus
2010-03-15, 07:22 AM
I got massively ninjaed here, but:

Metaphysical Spellshaper is Book of Erotic Fantasy.

1st level: You can take any kind of ability damage in lieu of increasing spell levels for metamagic.

And there is an easy way to recover those ability damage?




... Easy Metamagic... Residual Metamagic... Echoing Spell


Where can i find all those feats?

magic9mushroom
2010-03-15, 07:26 AM
And there is an easy way to recover those ability damage?

Lesser Restoration?


Where can i find all those feats?

The Crystalkeep list has most of them (Residual Metamagic's in Complete Mage, Easy Metamagic's Dragon 325). Echoing Spell is Secrets of Xen'drik.

Eldariel
2010-03-15, 07:28 AM
Where can i find all those feats?

Lessee:
Practical Metamagic [Races of the Dragon] - Gotta be Dragonblood (so prolly Silverbrow Human) and spontaneous caster (so anything, or Wizard with Spontaneous Divination)
Easy Metamagic [Dragon 325] - Same as above, except no prerequisites
Echoing Spell [Secrets of Xen'drik] - Infinit spellz!

EDIT: How...expected.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-15, 07:33 AM
Lessee:
Practical Metamagic [Races of the Dragon] - Gotta be Dragonblood (so prolly Silverbrow Human) and spontaneous caster (so anything, or Wizard with Spontaneous Divination)
Easy Metamagic [Dragon 325] - Same as above, except no prerequisites
Echoing Spell [Secrets of Xen'drik] - Infinit spellz!

EDIT: How...expected.

Practical Metamagic's incompatible with Shadowcraft Mage unless you use the adaptation of the latter. That's why I didn't suggest it.

Eldariel
2010-03-15, 09:58 AM
Practical Metamagic's incompatible with Shadowcraft Mage unless you use the adaptation of the latter. That's why I didn't suggest it.

Well, he asked hence the answer. But, incompatible how? I'm not seeing it.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-15, 08:51 PM
Well, he asked hence the answer. But, incompatible how? I'm not seeing it.

Well, I guess a Gnome Dragonborn would work.

AbyssKnight
2010-03-15, 09:01 PM
Stonehunter Gnome (Dragon Magic)

magic9mushroom
2010-03-16, 04:50 AM
Stonehunter Gnome (Dragon Magic)

Guess that works.

Hmm, is there a way to make a Beholder Dragonblood?

Eldariel
2010-03-16, 06:01 AM
Guess that works.

Hmm, is there a way to make a Beholder Dragonblood?

The Dragontouched-feat? Through racial shenanigans, no, but the feat works just fine.

Cyclocone
2010-03-16, 06:21 AM
Guess that works.

Hmm, is there a way to make a Beholder Dragonblood?

There's that 'Draconic' template (LA +1); assuming you can live with the mental imagery it evokes.