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Rezby
2010-03-14, 10:48 AM
I've heard some people say that Wizard is the most superior core class of all time for its versatility, while others have claimed that some Druid's class abilities are more powerful than entire classes.

So which is better, in your opinions, at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20, and core-only or any legit (ie no homebrew) supplement goes?

Amphetryon
2010-03-14, 10:53 AM
Before level 15, Druid is generally better without advanced kung-fu and shenanigans. After level 15, Wizard's 9th level spells are generally sufficiently spiffy to tip the balance back to them. Wizards also have the ability to deal with a slightly more diverse range of problems, in general, due to higher INT and a better spell list, but are squishier at low levels by a fair margin.

term1nally s1ck
2010-03-14, 10:57 AM
Core-only, disregarding uber shenanigans, Druid is better.

As splatbooks come into play, Wizard gets better, as he gets more options faster.

If you allow anything, they both can be very easily broken, but the wizard is easier to break.

Myou
2010-03-14, 11:43 AM
Even in core the wizard is better by 20.
At 1, 5 and 10 the druid has a large advantage.

Out of core wizard wins by 15.

KellKheraptis
2010-03-14, 12:05 PM
Even in core the wizard is better by 20.
At 1, 5 and 10 the druid has a large advantage.

Out of core wizard wins by 15.

Celerity is available by 9 ;) 7 actually if you're creative. And truth be told, you guys have seriously underestimated the raw capability of even a low to mid level wizard. True, at low levels of optimization, the druids brute factor puts it ahead, but at equal levels of even practical optimization, wizard by a mile. Melee got ya down? Abrupt Jaunt/Mirror Image/Blockade will solve your problems. Enemies still at range? <BFC no save just suck spell> the lot of them. The primary advantage a druid has against a wizard is his ability to slip out of Dimensional Lock when Forcecaged. Sadly this does nothing to prevent all the other nasty things a Wizard can do to him, the least of which is simply decide the simplistic uberdino needs to die and blast him to the moon.

To sum up, a wizard has to be creative to bridge the gap due to frailty in the early levels, since one pounce can end him, but once 4th-5th level spells are on the table all around, he's in a league of his own. My observation at least.

Evard
2010-03-14, 12:24 PM
Well first off these two classes (like any other two pc classes) were not meant to fight each other...

So you have to think of it more to terms of what a PC will go up against and which has a better chance of surviving. The both can gain healing spells in some fashion, they both can do good damage even when sub-optimized, and they both have limits that people tend to look over. Is this a who will last all day? Who will last during a single fight a day? Who will be better in a party?
If the party goes up against X boss monster who will be more helpful would be the best way to determine which is better, but then you have some monsters that the druid will do much better at than the wizard.

Pick the nastiest monsters at each of the levels and play test to see which class can handle those monsters better...

Hmm how about we do this online actually? Play test each class versus a monster (at each level) and let people decide which class did better. You could even put a party in there to see how things work with a party. Just cause on paper the druid or wizard looks better than the other doesn't mean it works out like that in actual play time (the god of dice are fickle creatures :p)

The Rose Dragon
2010-03-14, 12:28 PM
Well first off these two classes (like any other two pc classes) were not meant to fight each other...

You never have BBEGs with levels in Wizard or Druid while the other class is in your party?

Emmerask
2010-03-14, 12:28 PM
In core get a really fast flying companion give him an amf item laugh yourself silly while you watch your companion kill the mid level commoner.

On your companions way in you might want to counterspell everything the wizard tries to do. Well mainly if he tries to orb of x your companion ^^

Yukitsu
2010-03-14, 12:33 PM
In theory, a wizard can get further in most situations compared to a druid, but in practice, most people can't properly optimize wizards, and as such do better with druids, who are more of an "out of the box" class.

Eldariel
2010-03-14, 12:35 PM
Let's just take a quick look at the class features in Core:

Level 1
- Druid
2HD warrior as a class feature
Access to 1+Stat 1st level spells per day, spontaneous casting of SNAI
List includes Entangle, Produce Flame, Shillelagh, Faerie Fire
D8 HD, two good saves, 4xInt skills, some decent weapon & armor proficiencies

- Wizard
Access to 1+Stat 1st level spells per day + specialization for an extra
List includes Color Spray, Grease, Sleep, Enlarge Person, Ray of Enfeeblement
D4 HD, one good save, 2xInt skills, no real proficiencies outside simples

Wizard can't really afford his familiar nor the slot for Mage Armor. Even then, they'd be relatively even due to Wizard's superior spell list + specialization...except there's that whole "2hd warrior"-thing. So yeah, Druid wins.


Level 5
- Druid
4HD warrior with strong natural abilities (flight, pounce, the like) as a class feature
Access to 1/2/3 spells per day + stat, spontaneous SNAs
Spell list includes Sleet Storm, Stone Shape Greater Magic Fang, Call Lightning, Barkskin, Soften Earth & Stone, Entangle
Can be an efficient warrior for 5 hours per day

- Wizard
Familiar granting minor static bonuses and delivering touches
Access to 1/2/3 spells per day + stat, specialization
Spell list includes Alter Self, Fly, Invisibility, Stinking Cloud, Haste, Slow, Glitterdust, Web, Grease, Enlarge Person, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion

Wizard kicks Druid's ass spell power-wise. Druid spells aren't bad, but Wizard-spells are rather ridiculous on these levels. This probably about matches Druid's spells and the 5 hours as a warrior-part. And leaves the rest as Familiar vs. Animal Companion...which before Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability, Improved Familiar, Use Magic Device and company is a non-contest.

Though Wizard's spells are so good that he matches up pretty well here. Still, Animal Companion is so good here this goes to Druid. It's worth noting that Druid 5 is really by far the worst early level for Druid. Animal Companion is "behind the curve" for the first time; level 1 it's 2hd, level 2 it's 2hd, level 3 it's 4hd, level 4 you get upgraded companion, level 5...nothing happens.

Also, Druid yet lacks Natural Spell and Wildshape is only once/day. All this combined weakens Druid's greatest advantages a ton compared to level 6, 4 and all the levels before then.


Level 10
- Druid
Specialized 8+HD warrior-type as a class feature (Polar Bear/Brown Bear is a frightening grappler, Dire Lion/Tiger/Megaraptor makes for an impressive charger, Rhinoceros is a fine pound-for-pounder, etc.)
2/3/4/4/4 casting, spontaneous SNAs including Unicorn-summons and such
Spell list includes Animal Growth, Commune with Nature, Control Winds, Awaken, Air Walk, Giant Vermin, Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, all formers
40 hours of combat forms daily, enough to spare for various alternative tasks
Venom Immunity

- Wizard
Familiar to cast various spell-likes daily, use magic devices, etc.
2/3/4/4/4 casting, specializations
Spell list includes Teleport, Overland Flight, Polymorph, Black Tentacles, Wall of Stone/Force, Lesser Planar Binding, Baleful Polymorph, Greater Invisibility, Enervation, Solid Fog, etc, etc, etc.

This is where it's unclear. Druid casting kicks up a notch with Animal Growth (only spell on both lists I'm separately mentioning 'cause of how much more useful it is to a Druid with SNAs and Animal Companion), Control Winds (aka. City Destroyer), Freedom of Movement, powerful SNAs, etc. And Druid's AC + Wildshape truly kick into high gear here, particularly Wildshape with tons of strong abilities including Large forms and enough uses to last you many days.

On the other hand, Wizard's Familiar kicks into high gear with Improved Familiars and UMD becoming relevant options. And Wizard starts to reach the gamechanging spells like Teleport, Contact Other Plane, Lesser Planar binding, etc. along with just plain rocksolid combat casting and Polymorph.

I wouldn't frankly want to oppose either one at this point; with their strengths being completely different I'd say they're quite even at this point, though Wizard is probably a bit stronger with various no-save offensive effects (Necromancy in particular) & total world-changing effects.


Level 15
BlablablaWizardcastingis****inginsanewhileDruidisi nsanebutslightlylessblablablabla

Level 20
Lessee, Shapechange vs. Time Stop, Gate, Shapechange, Astral Projection, Disjunction...

Tengu_temp
2010-03-14, 12:36 PM
Well first off these two classes (like any other two pc classes) were not meant to fight each other...


1. What TRD said.
2. Note that this is a "which class is better" thread, not a "which class would win a duel" thread.

Personally, I'd say that druids are better at 1 and 5, while wizards are better at 10, 15 and 20. Even a level 10 wizard should already have access to several I Win buttons.

Myou
2010-03-14, 12:38 PM
In core get a really fast flying companion give him an amf item laugh yourself silly while you watch your companion kill the mid level commoner.

On your companions way in you might want to counterspell everything the wizard tries to do. Well mainly if he tries to orb of x your companion ^^

Abrupt Jaunt.

Also, there's no item of AMF in core, and no sane DM would allow one either. Also, that's beaten by the classic shrunk adamantine hat, or Gate.

And then there are swift action spells - can't counterspell those if you're countering the wizard's standard spells.

Then you leave core and there's Invoke Magic, and Craft Contingent Spell.

For every trick a high level druid has, the wizard has three or four.

Pluto
2010-03-14, 02:34 PM
At low levels, it isn't clear. The Druid is the combat king, but the Wizard has illusions and enchantments that the Druid can't even pretend to match.

As soon as the Wizard hits level 5 spells, he pretty definitely pulls ahead.

(The Druid has a big scary animal following him around? The Wizard has bigger scarier demons. The Druid can turn into an animal? The Wizard can turn into whatever he feels like. Then the Wizard has things like Fabricate, Major Creation, Teleport, Dominate, Major Image, Telekinesis and Magic jar that are just so ridiculously versatile that the Druid's effects just can't compete.)

waterpenguin43
2010-03-14, 03:32 PM
That depends on optimization and versatility: With worse optimization, druid is better, but the more optimized you are, wizard ends up being better.

Eldariel
2010-03-14, 03:39 PM
(The Druid has a big scary animal following him around? The Wizard has bigger scarier demons. The Druid can turn into an animal? The Wizard can turn into whatever he feels like. Then the Wizard has things like Fabricate, Major Creation, Teleport, Dominate, Major Image, Telekinesis and Magic jar that are just so ridiculously versatile that the Druid's effects just can't compete.)

On level 9, it isn't that clear yet. Wizard has Polymorph, sure, but that's 1 min/level. Druid's Wildshape lasts 27 hours. That's a big difference. Also, Lesser Planar Binding has 6 HD limit; AC is gonna be 8-10 HD at this point. AC is most likely able to kick a Bound Demon's ass. Of course, Bound Demons have nice stuff like spell-likes. But yeah, it isn't clear cut. Also Wizard can't match Control Winds for sheer destruction.

ericgrau
2010-03-14, 04:16 PM
Once the wizard gets the various barriers and better control spells he pulls ahead. So, I'll say level 7. There's some good stuff at levels 1-5 too, but the druid has some of the same or similar spells. So I'd say it's a tie at 3-5. That's against a small number of opponents. Against a large number of mooks fireball becomes more useful and the wizard is ahead at level 5. Beating wildshape with polymorph would only be rubbing it in. There's no need to fight fire with fire. As for other druid class features, they only provide more options not more power, similar to the mystic theurge. Comments comparing the animal companion to anything even close to another PC in strength are patently false. The downside for the wizard is he is easier to stop if you catch him off guard. Feeblemind doesn't affect druids, druids have a higher AC against readied actions to disrupt spells, druids have more HP, etc., etc. But left to run amok by "nice" DMs or using cheesy tricks to negate weaknesses, the wizard pulls ahead at 7.

Yzzyx
2010-03-14, 04:33 PM
Druid: more powerful at low levels, easier to optimize

Wizard: more powerful at later levels, receives more benefits from splatbooks

Ormur
2010-03-14, 04:45 PM
Isn't the brokenness of the druid due to him getting as much good stuff as some other classes combined whereas the wizard is broken because he can single-handedly make himself untouchable and unbeatable.

Gnaeus
2010-03-14, 05:29 PM
The Druid knows all of his spells in every splatbook. A well prepared wizard might know 20 per level. That means that Druid is MORE likely to have an I win spell for a particular encounter than the wizard. His spells aren't as powerful, but he knows hundreds.

Jack Zander
2010-03-14, 05:36 PM
The Druid knows all of his spells in every splatbook. A well prepared wizard might know 20 per level. That means that Druid is MORE likely to have an I win spell for a particular encounter than the wizard. His spells aren't as powerful, but he knows hundreds.

Except he has to prepare spells just like a wizard does. And because a wizard can leave empty slots/prepare scrolls/use divinations to prepare, a wizard is actually more likely to have the correct "I win" spell prepared for the encounter. The druid has to pick from his massive list at a specific time each day.

Myou
2010-03-14, 05:49 PM
The Druid knows all of his spells in every splatbook. A well prepared wizard might know 20 per level. That means that Druid is MORE likely to have an I win spell for a particular encounter than the wizard. His spells aren't as powerful, but he knows hundreds.

Try actually finding druid spells worth casting in those splatbooks. 99% of them are trash. As always, core is where the most broken spells tend to be. And wizards benefit far more from splatbook spells than druids. Knowing all spells on your list is no help when your list is nowhere near as good.

Saph
2010-03-14, 05:54 PM
Druid is stronger at level 1, Wizard is stronger at level 20, and in practice it really doesn't matter anyway. Since both classes are capable of reaching well into the silly levels of power, the limiting factor will be the player's skill and what the DM allows, not the theoretical maximum of the class.

Flickerdart
2010-03-14, 05:56 PM
The Druid knows all of his spells in every splatbook. A well prepared wizard might know 20 per level. That means that Druid is MORE likely to have an I win spell for a particular encounter than the wizard. His spells aren't as powerful, but he knows hundreds.
The Wizard can use divinations to prepare for the day ahead; the Druid's larger amount of options doesn't give him any better way of dealing with unexpected situations. A Wizard can deal with most anything using only his 4 free spells/spell level, because his spells are more versatile and powerful. The Wizard is also likely to have a stash of scrolls crafted for just the eventuality, whereas the Druid would have to buy his stash or spend a feat.

Evard
2010-03-14, 07:18 PM
You never have BBEGs with levels in Wizard or Druid while the other class is in your party?

No actually anyone who DM'ed for me was more imaginative than to put a PC class as the BBEG

The Rose Dragon
2010-03-14, 07:22 PM
No actually anyone who DM'ed for me was more imaginative than to put a PC class as the BBEG

...they put characters with NPC classes as the BBEG?

Superglucose
2010-03-14, 07:34 PM
Druid is stronger at level 1, Wizard is stronger at level 20, and in practice it really doesn't matter anyway. Since both classes are capable of reaching well into the silly levels of power, the limiting factor will be the player's skill and what the DM allows, not the theoretical maximum of the class.
As usual, Saph is Correct :ninja:

Sophismata
2010-03-14, 09:09 PM
And because a wizard can leave empty slots/prepare scrolls

So can Druids.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-14, 09:12 PM
So can Druids.

Divine casters have a set time of day they prepare spells, dawn, noon, midday, dusk, midnight etc. If a druid's prepares spells his at dawn and leaves a slot blank he can't fill it at noon. His preparation time has past.

Flickerdart
2010-03-14, 09:16 PM
So can Druids.
By wasting a feat on Scribe Scroll, yes, which puts Wizards ahead.

Godskook
2010-03-14, 09:25 PM
The Druid knows all of his spells in every splatbook. A well prepared wizard might know 20 per level. That means that Druid is MORE likely to have an I win spell for a particular encounter than the wizard. His spells aren't as powerful, but he knows hundreds.

Er, no. Its called diminishing returns. Spells tend to die off in individual usefulness the more total spells you have. Even more-so, when you're learning the best ones first. For instance, a L20 wizard doesn't need to know Luminous Armor, Mage Armor, and Greater Mage Armor when he can just know Greater Luminous Armor and get all the benefit he ever needs and save himself 3 spells known in the process.

Also, Heighten Spell drops a metric ton of spell versatility on the table for all the spells that scale nicely with level, if it weren't for their spell level.

JaronK
2010-03-14, 10:55 PM
I think it depends a lot on the DM and the campaign. Wizards can generally do more powerful things if allowed to get away with everything, while Druids have more off the cuff "this is useful always" sorts of abilities. If you're allowing everything, a Wizard's infinite wishes and stuff before the Druid can do that obviously wins (but the Druid is still game breaking too). If you're very conservative with what spells allow, the Druid wins with their Wild Shape and Animal Companions and generally solid spells that fewer DMs tend to nerf (I've seen many DMs nerf Alter Self, yet those same DMs are just fine with Wild Shape for some reason). In between, it's kind of a tossup. Either way, they're both strong as all heck.

JaronK

Sophismata
2010-03-14, 11:00 PM
Divine casters have a set time of day they prepare spells, dawn, noon, midday, dusk, midnight etc. If a druid's prepares spells his at dawn and leaves a slot blank he can't fill it at noon. His preparation time has past.

Divine casters can leave empty slots in the same way that arcane casters can.


The time required to prepare spells is the same as it is for a wizard (1 hour), as is the requirement for a relatively peaceful environment. A divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all his spells at once.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-14, 11:08 PM
Divine casters can leave empty slots in the same way that arcane casters can.


Time of Day
A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does. However, a divine spellcaster does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, he must wait until the next day to prepare spells.

If a druid prepares his spells at dawn and can only prepare them around that time how can he prepare another spell at noon?

Optimystik
2010-03-14, 11:10 PM
These "X vs. Y" threads miss the entire point of the tier system. JaronK (*points up*) used different situations that could feasibly come up in a campaign to compare what the classes were capable of, rather than just tossing them into a cage match.


If a druid prepares his spells at dawn and can only prepare them around that time how can he prepare another spell at noon?

Your quote indicates that they can prepare spells later so long as something interrupts them in the morning and they stop at the "first opportunity" to fill them. That seems sufficiently vague that you can fudge it to your DM as needed.

Sophismata
2010-03-14, 11:13 PM
If a druid prepares his spells at dawn and can only prepare them around that time how can he prepare another spell at noon?

The time of day is instead of the period of rest. Where wizards must rest for 8 hours, divine characters just need the correct time of day.

Once this requirement is met, spell slots are 'refreshed', and new spells may be prepared. Both characters may opt to leave specific slots empty.

At a later time, they can fill those slots with a much briefer preparation.

To say that the divine caster would need to wait for the correct time of day (again) is analogous to saying that the arcane caster would need another 8 hours of rest.

Godskook
2010-03-14, 11:14 PM
If a druid prepares his spells at dawn and can only prepare them around that time how can he prepare another spell at noon?

Your quote demands that he must pray for spells. It says nothing about if they must prepare spells.

Rankar
2010-03-14, 11:15 PM
I think everyone is missing the bigger picture: How difficult would it be to take out a Druid and Wizard working together?

Godskook
2010-03-14, 11:18 PM
I think everyone is missing the bigger picture: How difficult would it be to take out a Druid and Wizard working together?

Considering both are tier 1, I'd say it'd require two more tier 1 characters.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-14, 11:18 PM
I think everyone is missing the bigger picture: How difficult would it be to take out a Druid and Wizard working together?

A cage match with a big dragon that has the mage slayer feat.

Sophismata
2010-03-14, 11:24 PM
A Solar Exalt?

Flickerdart
2010-03-14, 11:26 PM
An StP Erudite//Artificer, of course.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-15, 01:26 AM
If a druid prepares his spells at dawn and can only prepare them around that time how can he prepare another spell at noon?

Druid picks dawn to pray.

Druid prays at dawn, and receives spells (leaving some slots empty).

He has now satisfied the requirement of stopping to pray for spells at the first opportunity. This means he is no longer obligated to wait until the next day.

Later, he prepares more spells. He can do this because he prayed at his appointed time.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-03-15, 01:44 AM
Druid is stronger at level 1, Wizard is stronger at level 20, and in practice it really doesn't matter anyway. Since both classes are capable of reaching well into the silly levels of power, the limiting factor will be the player's skill and what the DM allows, not the theoretical maximum of the class.I might posit that the druid is generally superior over a larger range of optimization levels, but there's no way to measure or verify that, so we're back to what you said.

Draz74
2010-03-15, 02:29 AM
Quick, somebody draw up a five-dimensional graph for each class's power!

The "independent variable" axes of the graph can be character level, optimization level, number of splatbooks allowed, and combat focused vs. noncombat focused campaign. :smalltongue:

Akal Saris
2010-03-15, 03:33 AM
In theory, a wizard can get further in most situations compared to a druid, but in practice, most people can't properly optimize wizards, and as such do better with druids, who are more of an "out of the box" class.

I agree with this. In theory a wizard can win just about any encounter in the game with a day to prepare, but in practice the druid tends to brute force things down quite handily, and can also win any encounter with a day to prepare.

Core-only and assuming mid-high levels of optimization: I'd say Druid 1, 5, 10, a tie at 15, and Wiz at 20. Out of core it's very build-dependent, but probably about equal at all levels, favoring the druid at 1 and 5, and the wizard at 10, 15, 20.

As Saph mentioned, it's very dependent on actual players and playstyle. I do well with druids because I like their huge flexibility in wild shape, the back-up tank animal companion, and having a mix of buff, healing, and battlefield control spells. I don't do very well playing wizards, because I'm an aggressive player and generally want to be at the front of the party kicking down the door, and wizards benefit hugely from a well developed sense of paranoia that I just can't be bothered with most of the time.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-15, 06:06 AM
No actually anyone who DM'ed for me was more imaginative than to put a PC class as the BBEG

What? All monsters? That seems less imaginative to me.


Quick, somebody draw up a five-dimensional graph for each class's power!

The "independent variable" axes of the graph can be character level, optimization level, number of splatbooks allowed, and combat focused vs. noncombat focused campaign. :smalltongue:

You'd need more dimensions, because there's more than 1 independent variable. There's power and both types of versatility (on-the-spot and preparation).

Killer Angel
2010-03-15, 06:36 AM
It really boils down to "what kind of cheese do you prefere"?

They're both very strong. Druid can break the game balance more easily than the wiz., but an optimized wizard is stronger than an optimized druid.
(I'm leaving out PrCs).


No actually anyone who DM'ed for me was more imaginative than to put a PC class as the BBEG

I find this slightly offensive.
(BTW: example (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0345.html) easily-at-hand of an enemy with one of those pc class)

Saph
2010-03-15, 07:16 AM
Really, I think the biggest difference is in the way the two classes do things, rather than their power level.

A Wizard, with sufficient preparation, will have the perfect combination of spells to solve a problem. A Druid will have a horrible kludge that uses massive amounts of brute force to solve the same problem. However in practice the Druid approach works about as well and requires less effort.

For example: A 10th-level Druid and a 10th-level Wizard both have to neutralise a bandit outpost that's protected by locked doors, barriers, traps, stationary defences, and contains a few dozen bandits with two or three leaders. How do they deal with it?

Wizard solution:
Do preliminary scout of outpost. Go away and re-prepare spells. Depending on paranoia level, spend one or more days further scouting outpost just to make sure it's not some kind of cunning trap. Approach outpost. Bypass doors, barriers, and traps with combination of invisibility, knock, and dimension door. Use improved invisibility then dominate or charm the bandit leaders. Other solutions are also possible. If multiple Wizard players are present, expect them to argue for 30+ minutes as they all try to show that their solution is better.
Druid solution:
Destroy doors. Destroy barriers. Destroy traps. Kill guards. Destroy stationary defences. Kill bandits. Kill bandit leaders. Set outpost on fire.

Optimystik
2010-03-15, 07:55 AM
StP Erudite is called "tier 0" for a reason. All Wizard spells and Psionic powers + Psion action abuse (Synchronicity, etc.) + Ignore all material components, even costly ones + Infinite Power Points (Mental Pinnacle) + More UPD than he has powers by the RAW reading (text trumps table.) Add in Hyperconscious for Anticipate Power (automatically counterspell all spells/psionics without a level check by spending PP) and Permanent Focus (be treated as maintaining your psionic focus even if you expend it) then have your psicrystal (which you get for free) take Leadership for backup...

And if he messes up/rolls badly/gets ambushed by several Tier 1s at once and dies, his psicrystal was displaced from the time stream this morning and has just reverted time to undo his destruction. Now he knows exactly what you're going to do and has another chance to thwart you, and you don't even know it because to you, it hasn't happened yet.

Properly supported, an StP Erudite can curbstomp anything in Tier 1, even with PrCs, with pathetic ease.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-15, 08:02 AM
StP Erudite is called "tier 0" for a reason. All Wizard spells and Psionic powers + Psion action abuse (Synchronicity, etc.) + Ignore all material components, even costly ones + Infinite Power Points (Mental Pinnacle) + More UPD than he has powers by the RAW reading (text trumps table.) Add in Hyperconscious for Anticipate Power (automatically counterspell all spells/psionics without a level check by spending PP) and Permanent Focus (be treated as maintaining your psionic focus even if you expend it) then have your psicrystal (which you get for free) take Leadership for backup...

And if he messes up/rolls badly/gets ambushed by several Tier 1s at once and dies, his psicrystal was displaced from the time stream this morning and has just reverted time to undo his destruction. Now he knows exactly what you're going to do and has another chance to thwart you, and you don't even know it because to you, it hasn't happened yet.

Properly supported, an StP Erudite can curbstomp anything in Tier 1, even with PrCs, with pathetic ease.

Eh? Since when were we discussing StP Erudites?

Not that I disagree with most of what you're saying.

Optimystik
2010-03-15, 08:06 AM
Eh? Since when were we discussing StP Erudites?

Not that I disagree with most of what you're saying.

Was responding to Flickerdart - pointing out that a gestalt StP Erudite was not needed to take down a Wizard and Druid, when a regular one can do the job just fine.

Especially not when he can effectively self-gestalt (Schism, Clone, Simulacrum etc.)

magic9mushroom
2010-03-15, 08:16 AM
Was responding to Flickerdart - pointing out that a gestalt StP Erudite was not needed to take down a Wizard and Druid, when a regular one can do the job just fine.

Especially not when he can effectively self-gestalt (Schism, Clone, Simulacrum etc.)

Well, hmm. The StP Erudite doesn't ever get 9th level spells or discipline powers, I'll note.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-15, 08:18 AM
Well, hmm. The StP Erudite doesn't ever get 9th level spells or discipline powers, I'll note.

Feats can cherry pick the couple discipline powers you need.

As for curbstomping anything in tier 1? Possibly, but only because it's a Tier 0 class, when read purely RAW. An Incantatrix or Planar Shepard could give a StP Erudite a run for its money.

And if going pure RAW, there are broken spell shenanigans that the tier 1 classes can do to take care of it, even with Time reversal and the like.

For example: The Simulacrum Solar Army, or gatecheese, both of which are available to most tier 1 classes.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-15, 08:25 AM
Feats can cherry pick the couple discipline powers you need.

As for curbstomping anything in tier 1? Possibly, but only because it's a Tier 0 class, when read purely RAW. An Incantatrix or Planar Shepard could give a StP Erudite a run for its money.

And if going pure RAW, there are broken spell shenanigans that the tier 1 classes can do to take care of it, even with Time reversal and the like.

For example: The Simulacrum Solar Army, or gatecheese, both of which are available to most tier 1 classes.

I will note that an StP Erudite can maintain Temporal Acceleration indefinitely.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-15, 08:28 AM
I will note that an StP Erudite can maintain Temporal Acceleration indefinitely.

And I'll note that a level 13 wizard can have an infinite army of icy Solars (and it's available at an even lower level if you work for it).
And a level 1 paladin can have a divine rank.

When discussing cheesy "I win" tricks, the lower level generally wins. It's why Pun-Pun (at level 1) trumps them all.

What level does StP Erudite get infinite acceleration?

magic9mushroom
2010-03-15, 08:36 AM
And I'll note that a level 13 wizard can have an infinite army of icy Solars (and it's available at an even lower level if you work for it).
And a level 1 paladin can have a divine rank.

When discussing cheesy "I win" tricks, the lower level generally wins. It's why Pun-Pun (at level 1) trumps them all.

What level does StP Erudite get infinite acceleration?

Depends on how you read the text, as usual for Erudite.

Either 11 or 13.

I'll note that this just falls out naturally from Mental Pinnacle, Temporal Acceleration, and Temporal Reiteration, no real tricks required.

Tiki Snakes
2010-03-15, 09:26 AM
Druid solution:
Destroy doors. Destroy barriers. Destroy traps. Kill guards. Destroy stationary defences. Kill bandits. Kill bandit leaders. Set outpost on fire.

I like the cut of his gib.
Which is apparently on fire.

nightwyrm
2010-03-15, 10:06 AM
Here's my followup to Saph's analogy, a wizard is a lockpick, a druid is a sledgehammer. Both would get you through the damn door.

Flickerdart
2010-03-15, 10:16 AM
The Wizard can also Dominate a Druid and get him to blow up the bandit outpost. Everybody wins!

Gnaeus
2010-03-16, 12:26 PM
Er, no. Its called diminishing returns. Spells tend to die off in individual usefulness the more total spells you have. Even more-so, when you're learning the best ones first. For instance, a L20 wizard doesn't need to know Luminous Armor, Mage Armor, and Greater Mage Armor when he can just know Greater Luminous Armor and get all the benefit he ever needs and save himself 3 spells known in the process.

Er, yes. Diminishing returns has to do with the extra effort necessary to achieve the same results. The druid has no expenditure to know those hundreds of spells, he just knows them.

Also, the 20th level wizard if developed organically probably had to learn more than one of those spells as he leveled. Having a good 4th level spell on your class list doesn't help if you die to damage at level 5. The druid may also replace his Barkskin with higher level natural armor spells as he progresses, but he doesn't care because he didn't spend money, spellbook space, or time learning it.

Also, you are talking about the handful of best spells that a wizard has. Those spells may be better than any individual druid spell, but not in any given situation. Perinarch, Miasma of Entropy, Echo Skull and Animate Snow are marginally useful spells. No wizard or archivist would be likely to bother learning them. But the druid has them available if he finds himself in limbo or wants to talk through a skull for some reason.

Also, the druid can entirely fill his spells known with non-combat utility spells, and still brute force through encounters by converting spells to summon allies. To duplicate that kind of trick requires several feats for the wizard, or certain PRCs.

readsaboutd&d
2010-03-16, 12:48 PM
What about planar shepard? It can get a plane where time is 10 times faster right?

Eldariel
2010-03-16, 03:35 PM
What about planar shepard? It can get a plane where time is 10 times faster right?

Where's that from? Is it from the same 3rd party unofficial never printed source as Incantatrix, Tainted Scholar, Dweomerkeeper, Illithid Savant, Beholder Mage, Cancer Mage and Ur-Priest?

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-16, 03:37 PM
Where's that from? Is it from the same 3rd party unofficial never printed source as Incantatrix, Tainted Scholar, Dweomerkeeper, Illithid Savant, Beholder Mage, Cancer Mage and Ur-Priest?

Tellin you. It's just as unofficial as those quacks who wrote Gate and Simulacrum.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-16, 03:39 PM
Where's that from? Is it from the same 3rd party unofficial never printed source as Incantatrix, Tainted Scholar, Dweomerkeeper, Illithid Savant, Beholder Mage, Cancer Mage and Ur-Priest?

Y'know, I thought you were serious until I noticed who you are.

Is it bad that I know off the top of my head exactly where all of those PrCs come from?

Optimystik
2010-03-16, 03:43 PM
What about planar shepard? It can get a plane where time is 10 times faster right?

Yes, or pick a plane with Outsiders that grant wishes, and give XP-free wishes to the party by wild shaping into one.

Some planes even let you do both!

Eldariel
2010-03-16, 03:50 PM
Tellin you. It's just as unofficial as those quacks who wrote Gate and Simulacrum.

And Planar Binding and as a corollary, Candle of Invocation?


Is it bad that I know off the top of my head exactly where all of those PrCs come from?

Hm, na; it's easy to remember since they all come from the same place - the void. On a slightly more serious note, I'd say it's not bad, really, since they are so...famous for their...contributions to the game. The fact that you make builds incorporating most of them does sentence you to the lower circles in the fiery depths though...

magic9mushroom
2010-03-16, 03:57 PM
Hm, na; it's easy to remember since they all come from the same place - the void. On a slightly more serious note, I'd say it's not bad, really, since they are so...famous for their...contributions to the game. The fact that you make builds incorporating most of them does sentence you to the lower circles in the fiery depths though...

I was about to argue the "most", but then I remembered I did actually once make a build that included four of those. :smalltongue:

Eldariel
2010-03-16, 03:58 PM
I was about to argue the "most", but then I remembered I did actually once make a build that included four of those. :smalltongue:

I know, woe be me.

KellKheraptis
2010-03-16, 04:24 PM
I know, woe be me.

And to think, you think you're safe from that level of Gouda over on BG, and then you see one of my builds...and ditto Magic9, I saw that list and went "crap, that's like all my favorite toys all in one place!"