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View Full Version : [4e] How do we fix Goring Charge?



Faleldir
2010-03-15, 09:56 AM
I heard a lot of fans say Goring Charge is the worst racial power in the game.
Because it doesn't have the Weapon keyword, it can't benefit from most sources of attack and damage bonuses, making it a waste of time.
If I used the following variant, would it be overpowered?

Option 1:
Goring Charge
Minotaur Racial
You charge the enemy and gore it with your horns.
Encounter
Free action
Trigger: You are about to charge an enemy.
Effect: If your charge attack hits, you knock the target prone.
Level 11: You also deal 1d6 extra damage.
Level 21: You also deal 2d6 extra damage.

Option 2:
Goring Charge
Minotaur Racial
You charge the enemy and gore it with your horns.
Encounter
Standard action
Requirement: You must charge and use this power in place
of a melee basic attack.
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength + 3 vs. Fortitude
(Increase to +6 at 11th level, +9 at 21st level.)
Hit: 1d6 + STR damage, and you knock the target prone.
Level 11: 2d6 + STR damage.
Level 21: 3d6 + STR damage.

YES, I KNOW ABOUT OPPORTUNITY GORE. IT STILL SUCKS.

Kurald Galain
2010-03-15, 10:04 AM
I heard a lot of fans say Goring Charge is the worst racial power in the game.
That sounds like one of the common overreactions of charop to me. For instance, there's a feat that lets you use it on opportunity attacks: proning people on an OA is certainly not bad.

(I'm not saying it's a great or awesome power, but neither is it T3h Worst Pwoer Evar)


If I used the following variant, would it be overpowered?
No, it would not be.

Note, however, that for classes without a strength-focus (i.e. most of them) charging is not a tactically viable option.

Mando Knight
2010-03-15, 11:58 AM
Note, however, that for classes without a strength-focus (i.e. most of them) charging is not a tactically viable option.

Unless they have some other reason why they should charge, like a "Use this instead of a Melee Basic" power or have some reason to take Melee Training (usually reserved for non-Strength melee classes bundled with a Warlord buddy).

Devas
2010-03-15, 12:46 PM
WotC already fixed this in PH3. It's now an attack with a scaling to-hit bonus which keys off a physical attribute of your choice. :smallsmile:

Faleldir
2010-03-15, 01:12 PM
WotC already fixed this in PH3. It's now an attack with a scaling to-hit bonus which keys off a physical attribute of your choice.
Level 1-5: +3 proficiency +1 Expertise +1 enhancement = +5
level 6-10: +3 proficiency +1 Expertise +2 enhancement = +6
Level 11-15: +3 proficiency +2 Expertise +3 enhancement = +8
Level 16-20: +3 proficiency +2 Expertise +4 enhancement = +9
Level 21-25: +3 proficiency +3 Expertise +5 enhancement = +11
Level 26-30: +3 proficiency +3 Expertise +6 enhancement = +12

Thajocoth
2010-03-15, 03:05 PM
The feat that lets you also use it At-Will as an opportunity action more than makes up for it. Now all Minotaurs (with that feat) stop movement when they hit with an AoO.

Faleldir
2010-03-15, 03:31 PM
They do not stop movement with an AOO. They stop movement with an attack that is significantly less accurate than an AOO, and it only trips if you hit. This whole "just sacrifice one of your precious feat slots to fix it" mentality is what caused the Expertise problem in the first place.

If the feat said:
"When you make an opportunity attack, instead of a melee basic attack, you may make an attack with a -3 penalty (-4 if you have a +3 proficiency weapon equipped.) that does not have the Weapon keyword. If you hit, you deal 3d6 + STR damage and knock the target prone."
you would have to be crazy to take it.

Compare that to Warforged Superiority. It gets even worse at Paragon when you can take a feat to make basic attacks against Reflex.

Kylarra
2010-03-15, 03:41 PM
They do not stop movement with an AOO. They stop movement with an attack that is significantly less accurate than an AOO, and it only trips if you hit. This whole "just sacrifice one of your precious feat slots to fix it" mentality is what caused the Expertise problem in the first place.

If the feat said:
"When you make an opportunity attack, instead of a melee basic attack, you may make an attack with a -3 penalty (-4 if you have a +3 proficiency weapon equipped.) that does not have the Weapon keyword. If you hit, you deal 3d6 + STR damage and knock the target prone."
you would have to be crazy to take it.

Compare that to Warforged Superiority. It gets even worse at Paragon when you can take a feat to make basic attacks against Reflex.Eh, it's Phys stat+4/6/8. In heroic it's not too bad, in paragon and epic the feat tax pushes the difference a bit too high though, so you can just retrain it then.

The difference is: heroic: -1/-2; paragon: -2/-3; epic: -3/-4

So really only in epic is it "as bad" as you claim here, and even then only in the second half. :smalltongue: If you use only a +2 prof weapon, it's not even an issue for the first half of heroic and a negligible penalty for the second.

Tiki Snakes
2010-03-15, 04:10 PM
Not to mention that if you tack on Goring Shove also, you not only get to use it for Opportunity attacks and knock them prone, you throw them 5 foot away and they land prone.

And if you're a fighter minotaur, then you're probably getting Wis to the attack also. Given that a large chunk of the Fighter's stuff is in getting up in everyones grill and making them uncomfortable, that's pretty delicious stuff if you ask me.

Kurald Galain
2010-03-15, 04:29 PM
If the feat said:
"When you make an opportunity attack, instead of a melee basic attack, you may make an attack with a -3 penalty (-4 if you have a +3 proficiency weapon equipped.) that does not have the Weapon keyword. If you hit, you deal 3d6 + STR damage and knock the target prone."
you would have to be crazy to take it.

That would be a decent feat. Not the greatest feat ever, but certainly worth taking in several builds. It's a tradeoff: lower to-hit (15% is significant but hardly crippling) but a far better effect on a hit.