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View Full Version : Cerebremancer's Playability <3.5>



LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-15, 01:10 PM
I'm not 100% sure that Cerebremancer is even worth taking levels in, considering its EXACTLY like MT. Am I right, or am I missing the secret to using it?

Swok
2010-03-15, 01:16 PM
Well, Psion/Wizard has a delicious SAD. Also you're not losing out on cleric chassis like with MT. Cerebremancer is pretty much the same as Psion and Wizard

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-15, 01:19 PM
Well, Psion/Wizard has a delicious SAD. Also you're not losing out on cleric chassis like with MT. Cerebremancer is pretty much the same as Psion and Wizard

though an Archivist/Wizard or Favored Soul or Shugenja/Sorcerer falls under the same book as the Psion/Wizard or Wilder/Sorcerer

so how can Cerebremancer be stronger than a Mystic Theurge?

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-15, 01:21 PM
though an Archivist/Wizard or Favored Soul or Shugenja/Sorcerer falls under the same book as the Psion/Wizard or Wilder/Sorcerer

so how can Cerebremancer be stronger than a Mystic Theurge?

Action Economy. Psions are known for being able to seriously abuse their powers and get extra actions/turn.


Oh, and Ardent/Wizard entry with Practiced Manifester=9/9.

Kylarra
2010-03-15, 01:23 PM
Schism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/schism.htm) helps.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-15, 01:26 PM
Action Economy. Psions are known for being able to seriously abuse their powers and get extra actions/turn.


Oh, and Ardent/Wizard entry with Practiced Manifester=9/9.

couldn't a Psion/Wizard do technically the same thing without the MAD?

So a:

Synad
Psion/Wizard/Cerebremancer/Archmage/Arch Psion

beats a:

Human
Wizard/Archivist/Mystic Theurge/Archmage/Contemplative?

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-15, 01:54 PM
Good question, Can Practiced Manifester/Spellcaster cover the 4 levels either end to boost the spellcasting back to 8th level each?

AbyssKnight
2010-03-15, 02:00 PM
1) Wizard 1 (Precocious Apprentice)
2) Ardent 1
3) Ardent 2 (Practiced Manifester)
4-13) Cerebremancer 1-10
14-19) Wizard/Arcane PrC 1-6
20) Ardent

9th level spells (Wizard 17)
9th level powers (Ardent 13 but ML 17 which is how Ardents choose powers)

note you will not have any 7th or 8th level powers

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-15, 02:02 PM
1) Wizard 1 (Precocious Apprentice)
2) Ardent 1
3) Ardent 2 (Practiced Manifester)
4-13) Cerebremancer 1-10
14-19) Wizard/Arcane PrC 1-6
20) Ardent

9th level spells (Wizard 17)
9th level powers (Ardent 13 but ML 17 which is how Ardents choose powers)

note you will not have any 7th or 8th level powers

then it can't qualify of Epic Manifesting (some1 told me it exists)

AbyssKnight
2010-03-15, 03:24 PM
Eh...I don't ever worry about the consequences in Epic cause I've never played in a campaign that started pre-Epic and continued into Epic. It either begins and ends pre-Epic, or begins and ends in Epic.

Optimystik
2010-03-15, 03:29 PM
@ all the Ardent lovers - please combine it with Psychic Theurge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b) and Cleric instead, for SADness' sake!


then it can't qualify of Epic Manifesting (some1 told me it exists)

Indeed it does (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/psionicPowers.htm)

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-15, 03:32 PM
then it can't qualify of Epic Manifesting (some1 told me it exists)

But the question is... Do you really care?

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-15, 06:35 PM
Cerebremancer beats the living daylights out of MT. On one side, you have the immediate versatility of a Psion, and on the other you have the long-term versatility of a wizard. And get this, if magic/psionics transparency includes the psicrystal's share powers feature, you can have a psicrystal and a familiar, cast mental pinnacle on both, and BAM! you're now a cerebremancer, and two half-hearted psions. To put it another way, psion uber blasting + wizard BFC = win.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-15, 06:45 PM
couldn't a Psion/Wizard do technically the same thing without the MAD?

So a:

Synad
Psion/Wizard/Cerebremancer/Archmage/Arch Psion

beats a:

Human
Wizard/Archivist/Mystic Theurge/Archmage/Contemplative?

Nope! The Ardent learns their powers based on their Manifester level, thus Practiced Manifester and other effects that boost ML allow you to learn higher level powers. Considering Transparency applies to Magic Items and Spells alike, a few Wizard tricks for getting a high Caster Level actually makes Ardent a much better option, even with MAD.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-16, 05:16 AM
Cerebremancer is inferior to Spell to Power Erudite.

However, that isn't saying much.

Given that Practised Manifester can patch the psionic side, it's better than MT.

On the other hand, Mystic Theurge is better if you're using it with Ur-Priest, which has no Psionic equivalent.

Ardent/Ur-Priest Psychic Theurge FTW?

Amphetryon
2010-03-16, 10:36 AM
On the other hand, Mystic Theurge is better if you're using it with Ur-Priest, which has no Psionic equivalent.

Sounds like a niche in need of filling. :smallbiggrin:

Optimystik
2010-03-16, 10:38 AM
Sounds like a niche in need of filling. :smallbiggrin:

You're right, there aren't enough tier 1 classes. :smalltongue:

magic9mushroom
2010-03-16, 03:41 PM
So, are we agreed that an Ardent/Ur-Priest Psychic Theurge with Dominant Ideal beats the pants off Mystic Theurges and Cerebremancers?

Or do I hear cries of "Erudite/Beholder Mage Cerebremancer"?

Optimystik
2010-03-16, 03:45 PM
So, are we agreed that an Ardent/Ur-Priest Psychic Theurge with Dominant Ideal beats the pants off Mystic Theurges and Cerebremancers?

Or do I hear cries of "Erudite/Beholder Mage Cerebremancer"?

You're just trying to get more people into your sig, aren't you :smalltongue:

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-16, 03:53 PM
Sounds like a niche in need of filling. :smallbiggrin:

We have two classes that come close, and those two are all ready very good for what they do (War Mind and Fist of Zuoken). We do not need a Psionic Ur-Priest. A Psionic Divine Crusader using CP's Mantles instead of domains would be nice though (so long as Mind's Eye variants are not allowed to work with it).


Hell, a Psionic version of Fiend-Blooded (but for the Phrenic template) would be cool.

faceroll
2010-03-16, 04:09 PM
So, are we agreed that an Ardent/Ur-Priest Psychic Theurge with Dominant Ideal beats the pants off Mystic Theurges and Cerebremancers?

Or do I hear cries of "Erudite/Beholder Mage Cerebremancer"?

Cerebremancer is necessary for early entry to mind mage, and also for filling out the rest of the levels after you finish mind mage.

Ardent/Ur priest has a pretty small spell pool and very few powers known, doesn't it?

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-16, 04:13 PM
Cerebremancer is necessary for early entry to mind mage, and also for filling out the rest of the levels after you finish mind mage.

Ardent/Ur priest has a pretty small spell pool and very few powers known, doesn't it?

Spells/day as Cleric with Prepared casting as Cleric, minus domains. Ardent may have powers known as a Psion, but mantle selection makes a huge difference. In terms of actual versatility, it would make up for a slightly weaker Psionic side with Cleric casting.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-16, 06:28 PM
You're just trying to get more people into your sig, aren't you :smalltongue:

I would have put that in my sig, but there's a 500 character limit. And no, I wasn't actually thinking of my sig when I said that.


Cerebremancer is necessary for early entry to mind mage, and also for filling out the rest of the levels after you finish mind mage.

Ardent/Ur priest has a pretty small spell pool and very few powers known, doesn't it?

Few powers known, but with a substituted mantle and Dominant Ideal, it's "quality over quantity".

Small spell pool only if you call the entire Cleric list small.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-17, 11:31 AM
I also thought a Warmage/Wilder/Cerebremancer would be a blasting machine, though I think the Ardent/Ur Priest/Psychic Theurge and Wizard/Ardent/Cerebremancer or even an Erudite/Wizard/Cerebremancer are good for a semi-optimized party (we have 3 boring PCs, 2 Optimized, and me)

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-17, 11:47 AM
@ all the Ardent lovers - please combine it with Psychic Theurge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b) and Cleric instead, for SADness' sake!



Indeed it does (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/psionicPowers.htm)



umm...I can on;y get on here at school, which has SRD blocked, so How????

Kylarra
2010-03-17, 11:50 AM
umm...I can on;y get on here at school, which has SRD blocked, so How????epic powers essentially work the same way as epic spells.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-17, 11:53 AM
epic powers essentially work the same way as epic spells.

right, but the Ardent/Psion/Cerebremancer in question has no 7th or 8th level powers, thus doesn't qualify...

Optimystik
2010-03-17, 11:55 AM
Cerebremancer is necessary for early entry to mind mage, and also for filling out the rest of the levels after you finish mind mage.

Ardent/Ur priest has a pretty small spell pool and very few powers known, doesn't it?

"Very few?" :smallconfused:
By the time you qualify for Ur-Priest, you have 4 mantles. That's up to 40 powers, and you can only know 21 of them.

If you really need access to more, the Tap Mantle feat gives you a new mantle (another 10 potential powers) every time you take it. And then there's Expanded Knowledge for the oddball ones.

And all of that isn't even taking into account Mantle substitution, which lets you cherry-pick powers and not even need the above feats.


right, but the Ardent/Psion/Cerebremancer in question has no 7th or 8th level powers, thus doesn't qualify...

But Ardent/Ur-Priest/Psychic Theurge has both 9th-level powers and 9th-level spells, both powered off Wisdom.

Even using Cerebremancer, an Ardent can still get 9th-level powers and qualify for Epic Manifesting.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-17, 11:59 AM
But Ardent/Ur-Priest/Psychic Theurge has both 9th-level powers and 9th-level spells, both powered off Wisdom.


Isn't Ur Priest obscenely broken? and at what level can Ardent qualify, considering Ur Priest's prereqs.

and plus, I like the sheer feeling for the Arcane/Psychic with 2 "familiars", a book, and a cool Deep Crystal Staff

Kylarra
2010-03-17, 12:09 PM
Ur-priest isn't that broken. It's fairly powerful, being one of the few classes that grant 9th level spells in 9 levels, but eh whatever.

Let's see, pre-reqs, the ardent will need to acquire bluff somehow and hope for psicraft/spellcraft transparency and will probably need a strong fort class to enter before level 9

Else Ardent9/Ur-priest1/Psitheurge 10 works I suppose.

Optimystik
2010-03-17, 12:16 PM
Isn't Ur Priest obscenely broken?

Only if you break it.


At what level can Ardent qualify, considering Ur Priest's prereqs?

Without cheese, 10 (for the needed ranks in Bluff and Spellcraft.) Level 10 will also take care of the fort save requirement.

Kylarra
2010-03-17, 12:45 PM
Without cheese, 10 (for the needed ranks in Bluff and Spellcraft.) Level 10 will also take care of the fort save requirement.You need level 13 to take spellcraft straight though unfortunately. So you'll need to burn a level or a feat or something. We usually merge psi and spellcraft into the same skill in our games, so that's why I assumed pseudotransparency earlier.

Optimystik
2010-03-17, 01:08 PM
Yes that's true, you'd need 13 ranks - I misread the 8 as a 6.

There are ways around that - Ruathar has Spellcraft in-class, for instance, and I'm sure there's a feat somewhere that makes it a class skill... and really, transparency should allow you to use Psicraft instead - but in the absence of all that, a 1-level dip to grab both skills won't kill an Ardent.

Darth Stabber
2010-03-17, 01:31 PM
Cerebramancer is a ton of fun
last one I played ended up as such
wizard(diviner ban evo)/psion(kineticist), batman and blasto ducktaped together.

His master taught him that destructive magic was vulgar, so he banned evocation, early on in his career he decided that he would like to blow Stuff up, and with evo being banned he learned psionics, and then tied them together. It works really well, I had a much easier time deciding what to prepare in the morning, and this one of the few times I felt like I was in tune with the Batman mentality, since I had an outlet for the childish urge to blow things up, without hurting my wizardlyness. Spent most of feats on arcane stuff, since my blasto didn't need it.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-17, 01:51 PM
Lemmie think.....

Technically, Criminal Background @ lv1 gives you bluff, along with Sleight of Hand and Open Lock

and also, a Human/Inspired (Secrets of Sarlona) can take 2 Background feats, one regional (Criminal Background) and one ancestral (the one that gives you spellcraft from OA)

Kylarra
2010-03-17, 01:59 PM
Meh, if you're going to burn two feats on it, might as well just take a level of factotum with able learner.

Optimystik
2010-03-17, 02:05 PM
Meh, if you're going to burn two feats on it, might as well just take a level of factotum with able learner.

I agree, past a certain point burning feats is less desirable than a level dip.

If we go with the Psicraft transparency then the only outstanding skill is Bluff - therefore, a dip in Ninja can both secure it, as well as grant a hefty AC bonus if the Ardent shucks his plate.

Alternatively, dip cleric (turning, 2 domains) with that Criminal Background bit to get both Spellcraft + Bluff, then quickly violate your ethos and get kicked out of the church so that you can go into Ur-Priest later.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-17, 02:05 PM
Meh, if you're going to burn two feats on it, might as well just take a level of factotum with able learner.

My DM banned factotum. He said its "Not a real class from a fake book"

But if I could, I'd dip into facto and take able learner

however, for my party, my DM gave every1 a free regional or ancestral feat

Kylarra
2010-03-17, 02:11 PM
Meh. Dip warlock for your one always on utility invocation and use that to get your spellcraft/bluff then.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-17, 02:12 PM
Meh. Dip warlock for your one always on utility invocation and use that to get your spellcraft/bluff then.

did I mention i got a FREE ancestral/regional/lv 1 only feat

Optimystik
2010-03-17, 02:23 PM
Meh. Dip warlock for your one always on utility invocation and use that to get your spellcraft/bluff then.

That's a pretty good idea, actually. I'd probably grab Baleful Utterance, Otherworldly Whispers, Serpent's Tongue or Swimming the Styx (for a watery campaign)


did I mention i got a FREE ancestral/regional/lv 1 only feat

*winces*
No need to shout...
We're discussing general work-arounds, not just your DM's table.

Kylarra
2010-03-17, 02:24 PM
did I mention i got a FREE ancestral/regional/lv 1 only featActually I change my first opinion. Take a level of DFA instead.

Warlock is still good, but dragons are dragons. *_*

Optimystik
2010-03-17, 02:28 PM
Actually I change my first opinion. Take a level of DFA instead.

Warlock is still good, but dragons are dragons. *_*

Dragons suck. Go fiends!

Although I have to admit, Magic Insight is one smexy invocation.

Kylarra
2010-03-17, 02:30 PM
Dragons suck. Go fiends!

Although I have to admit, Magic Insight is one smexy invocation.
DFA gets 4+int skillpoints though, so you can go ahead and get most of the needed skills right then, so it's slightly better than warlock for the dip. It's also a +fort class, so you can enter Ur-priest earlier.

Optimystik
2010-03-17, 02:46 PM
DFA gets 4+int skillpoints though, so you can go ahead and get most of the needed skills right then, so it's slightly better than warlock for the dip. It's also a +fort class, so you can enter Ur-priest earlier.

You've convinced me. But I'm still refluffing it.

"Balorbreath Adept" here I come :smallwink:

Kylarra
2010-03-17, 02:48 PM
You've convinced me. But I'm still refluffing it.

"Balorbreath Adept" here I come :smallwink:So... are you Balortouched now?

Optimystik
2010-03-17, 02:51 PM
So... are you Balortouched now?

Sure; anything but a dragon; they're only slightly below elves and kender on my genocide priority list.

On topic... does anyone have a viable alternative to Mind Mage (yuck) to advance Cerebremancer?

And has anyone tried to build a Wilder/Bard/Sublime Chord Cerebremancer? I doubt dual 9s are possible that way but I haven't actually sat down to crunch the numbers.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-17, 02:59 PM
Sure; anything but a dragon; they're only slightly below elves and kender on my genocide priority list.

On topic... does anyone have a viable alternative to Mind Mage (yuck) to advance Cerebremancer?


Can legacy champion or blood lines? I am not too familiarized with them

Optimystik
2010-03-17, 03:05 PM
Can legacy champion or blood lines? I am not too familiarized with them

Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster, yes. I don't know enough about Bloodlines to know if they apply to divine casters/psionics.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-17, 03:07 PM
Do they give you double 9... suppose with an ardent

Optimystik
2010-03-17, 03:43 PM
Do they give you double 9... suppose with an ardent

An Ardent can get 9s at ML 13 even without those two. Cleric 7/Ardent 3/Psychic Theurge 10 can get dual 9s with Practiced Manifester. Your PP pool will be sorely lacking (to the tune of almost 200 PP below base maximum!), but you'll at least have toys like Dweomer of Transference to play with as a workaround. (Dump all of your useless low-mid level spell slots into PP to fuel your 8th- and 9th-level bombs.)

But to answer your question: those classes lose caster/manifester levels, so getting dual 9s with them cuts it close. A Cleric 3/Ardent 3/PT 10/LC4 would only have dual 8s. The solution is to use early entry tricks like Illumian or Earth Spell.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-17, 04:07 PM
So... are you Balortouched now?

Oh GOD, that's so bad out of context...

Optimystik
2010-03-17, 04:24 PM
Oh GOD, that's so bad out of context...

And yet, so right.
If you know what I mean.
Wink.

Optimystik
2010-03-18, 01:44 PM
Just remembered something I forgot to contribute to this thread - the Sancitifed Mind PrC from LoM is also a divine/manifesting theurge with 5/6 progression and full BAB. That could be used to more easily push through to dual 9s on a Cleric/Ardent without relying on Ur-Priest.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-18, 01:49 PM
Just remembered something I forgot to contribute to this thread - the Sancitifed Mind PrC from LoM is also a divine/manifesting theurge with 5/6 progression and full BAB. That could be used to more easily push through to dual 9s on a Cleric/Ardent without relying on Ur-Priest.

IIRC, that PrC advances one or the other, but not both at the same time.

Blackfang108
2010-03-18, 02:04 PM
@ all the Ardent lovers - please combine it with Psychic Theurge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b) and Cleric instead, for SADness' sake!



I talked a buddy of mine into doing JUST that.

I think we were planning on DMM'ing, too. (I'm the optimizer of the group, so I'm helping him build and plan it.)

Optimystik
2010-03-18, 02:17 PM
IIRC, that PrC advances one or the other, but not both at the same time.

Does it? I guess I need to read it again...

EDIT: And you're right, and I have tasty egg on my face. Mmm, eggs.

Blackfang108
2010-03-18, 03:00 PM
EDIT: And you're right, and I have tasty egg on my face. Mmm, eggs.

I find something strangely hilarious about that sentence. (Think about it...):smallbiggrin:

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-19, 12:43 PM
so in retrospect, an Ardent 10?/Ur Priest 1/Sanctified Mind 5/Psychic Theurge 4 is a good option?

Pluto
2010-03-19, 01:00 PM
so in retrospect, an Ardent 10?/Ur Priest 1/Sanctified Mind 5/Psychic Theurge 4 is a good option?
It's not a great option (Sanctified Mind only advances 4 levels of Ur-Preist here), but it would be playable.

(In the same way Ardent/Anything is playable, but this gets a little bit of extra Wisdom synergy)

Ardent 10/Ur Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 8 would be better in just about every way.

Optimystik
2010-03-19, 01:14 PM
so in retrospect, an Ardent 10?/Ur Priest 1/Sanctified Mind 5/Psychic Theurge 4 is a good option?

Sorry for the confusion, I was wrong about Sanctified Mind. It only progresses divine OR psionic as Sinfire corrected me.


Ardent 10/Ur Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 8 would be better in just about every way.

Technically that build is illegal; Transparency does not extend to Psicraft allowing you to qualify for PrCs that need Spellcraft. A 1 level dip in DFA solves that though.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-19, 01:15 PM
Sorry for the confusion, I was wrong about Sanctified Mind. It only progresses divine OR psionic as Sinfire corrected me.



Technically that build is illegal; Transparency does not extend to Psicraft allowing you to qualify for PrCs that need Spellcraft. A 1 level dip in DFA solves that though.

Or a feat.

Magic in the Blood and Criminal Background both cover that

Optimystik
2010-03-19, 01:19 PM
Where are those two located?

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-19, 01:20 PM
Where are those two located?

OA and one of the Forgotten Realms books