Uncanny Dodge and Skirmish

[Teambanzai]

I have recently started playing in a D&D 3.5 gestalt campaign. I decided to run a Warlock/Scout... I figured to be a quick hitting ranged touch attack type. In our last adventure we ran into some baddies that had rogue levels. As I began attacking I was informed that my skirmish damage would not apply as the rogues had "Uncanny Dodge". Well the RAW do not mention uncanny dodge affecting skirmish in any shape or form... the closest thing is a couple of lines in the Rules Compendium about "precision damage", which skirmish falls under (and still very vague at best).

My DM's logic is that Uncanny Dodge, in the "Spirit" of the ability should apply to all precision damage attacks.

Does anyone know if there are any rules/opinions - written or posted about this topic?
Is there any erratta what so ever about this.

I can't find anything. Any help and any interpretations of Uncanny Dodge applying to skirmish damage would be greatly appreciated.

[AtwasAwamps]

"Spirit" as it may be, by RAW and by what I must assume is RAI, skirmish is unaffected. Uncanny Dodge SPECIFICALLY negates losing Dex to AC and Flanking benefits, neither of which affect skirmish.

Skirmish, which is easier to activate than Sneak Attack or Sudden Strike, has that going for it, and that's a large part of why Skirmish progresses as slow as it does.

[ericgrau]

I don't think he's playing by the rules or even trying to play by the rules. It's a houserule, live with it.

It makes sense though. Splatbooks do tend to have a flagrant disregard for the core set of abilities and counters to them, such that counters tend to become weaker and weaker as splatbooks add more and more abilities that they weren't designed to handle. When 1 in 20 enemies has the ability you prepared for instead of 1 in 10 then, yes, your counter just got weaker.

EDIT: OTOH ya if it's a slower progression then that is a balancing factor. Try to argue to your DM that opponents should at least have improved uncanny dodge for that reason. I'm also assuming skirmishers have medium BAB like rogues??

[Gametime]

Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike gain dice at a significantly higher rate than Skirmish. The whole point of the Skirmish ability is that it's weaker than those abilities, but easier to meet the requirements for. Allowing Uncanny Dodge to defeat it unnecessarily nerfs what is already an unspectacular ability.

If your DM insists, I'd recommend pushing for a boost to Skirmish's damage progression to compensate.

[Person_Man]

It's a house rule that nerfs an already weak class. There is no official errata or FAQ on the issue, since your DM basically just made it up out of thin air. Since Uncanny Dodge is relatively common, I would switch your Scout progression to something else, and retrain if possible.

[AtwasAwamps]

I don't think he's playing by the rules or even trying to play by the rules. It's a houserule, live with it.

It makes sense though. Splatbooks do tend to have a flagrant disregard for the core set of abilities and counters to them, such that counters tend to become weaker and weaker as splatbooks add more and more abilities that they weren't designed to handle. When 1 in 20 enemies has the ability you prepared for instead of 1 in 10 then, yes, your counter just got weaker.

EDIT: OTOH ya if it's a slower progression then that is a balancing factor. Try to argue to your DM that opponents should at least have improved uncanny dodge for that reason. I'm also assuming skirmishers have medium BAB like rogues??

The issue is that the houserule is wholly unneccessary to balance Skirmish out. It's supposed to be easier to apply and has a different set up than Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike. And yes, Skirmishers have the same BAB progression as a rogue or ninja.

It simply doesn't make sense for Uncanny Dodge to work against Skirmish. It protects against specific states in which other precision damage activates. Neither of those states work for Skirmish.

[RagnaroksChosen]

The issue is that the houserule is wholly unneccessary to balance Skirmish out. It's supposed to be easier to apply and has a different set up than Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike. And yes, Skirmishers have the same BAB progression as a rogue or ninja.

It simply doesn't make sense for Uncanny Dodge to work against Skirmish. It protects against specific states in which other precision damage activates. Neither of those states work for Skirmish.

I agree with you.

OP you should talk with your GM about how skirmish has reduced damage due to it working when sneak attack doesn't. I would ask him to bring up progression of the dmg to something along the lines of sudden strike. or retrain.

[rypt]

IMy DM's logic is that Uncanny Dodge, in the "Spirit" of the ability should apply to all precision damage attacks.

That doesn't even make sense. Uncanning dodge is an ability that allows you to maintain your DEX bonus while flat-footed or attacked by someone who is invisible. Note that the ability does not address precision damage at all, it merely alters the conditions under which you could lose your DEX bonus to AC. The fact that sudden strike and sneak attack happen to trigger under such a condition is technically irrevelant to the language and the effects of the ability. Skirmish doesn't even care if you are flat-footed or not.

[Nate the Snake]

If your DM insists, I'd recommend pushing for a boost to Skirmish's damage progression to compensate.

There's already a RAW workaround. Some PrCs give "+Xd6 precision damage" instead of "+Xd6 sneak attack," and do so at faster intervals than scout levels, so it's possible to advance skirmish at a rate comparable to sneak attack.

Also, +1 to "Uncanny dodge doesn't stop skirmish."

[Curmudgeon]

Some PrCs give "+Xd6 precision damage" instead of "+Xd6 sneak attack,"
Care to share? I hadn't noticed any PrCs like that.

[Pechvarry]

Unseen Seer.

Also: I hate level 3 class features making classes useless.

[PinkysBrain]

My DM's logic is that Uncanny Dodge, in the "Spirit" of the ability should apply to all precision damage attacks.
Uncanny dodge lets you keep dex to ac ... preventing precision damage is a side effect. By his reasoning skirmish shouldn't work on anything which has dex to AC.

If he had said that the spirit of Improved Uncanny Dodge was to prevent precision damage I would have somewhat agreed with him (in that case though the spirit would also be to let your scout levels to count as rogue levels to overcome it).

How does he explain that a rogue with uncanny dodge can be flanked and sneak attacked????

[Curmudgeon]

Unseen Seer.
OK, every 3 levels. So that'd be a boost to the Scout's skirmish damage, but would never advance their skirmish AC boost. And it would lag seriously behind for Rogue sneak attack and Ninja sudden strike. So obviously the main Unseen Seer emphasis is on advancing arcane spellcasting, because by itself this is kinda lame.

[Nate the Snake]

Care to share? I hadn't noticed any PrCs like that.

Unseen Seer, which has been mentioned. (4/10 advancement)
Dragon Devotee, Races of the Dragon. (2/5 advancement)
Hand of the Winged Masters, Dragon Magic. (3/10 advancement)


OK, every 3 levels. So that'd be a boost to the Scout's skirmish damage, but would never advance their skirmish AC boost. And it would lag seriously behind for Rogue sneak attack and Ninja sudden strike. So obviously the main Unseen Seer emphasis is on advancing arcane spellcasting, because by itself this is kinda lame.

I look at it as trading +1 AC for +1d6 bonus damage and trading rogue damage progression for the ability to bypass uncanny dodge. It might be worth it, it might not.

If you want more skirmish damage with the AC bonus, the Improved Skirmish feat from Complete Scoundrel boosts both damage and and AC if you move farther to activate skirmish.

[Harperfan7]

If uncanny dodge doesn't block all forms of sneak attack damage, it shouldn't block skirmish.

[Teambanzai]

Thanks for all the input. I think I have lots of ammo for the rules discussion before our session this Friday.:elan:

[Darrin]

Care to share? I hadn't noticed any PrCs like that.

Scout 4/Ranger 2/Dragon Devotee 4/Unseen Seer 4/Ranger +3/Highland Stalker 2/Something 1 gets up to 8d6 skirmish, or 10d6 with Improved Skirmish.

Full BAB Swift Hunter Skirmisher:
Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Ranger 4/Highland Stalker 6/Ranger +9 gets 6d6 skirmish, or 8d6 with Improved Skirmish.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

It's a house rule that nerfs an already weak class. There is no official errata or FAQ on the issue, since your DM basically just made it up out of thin air. Since Uncanny Dodge is relatively common, I would switch your Scout progression to something else, and retrain if possible.

Just a quick question: Please explain how the the scout considered a "weak" class. "Because it's not a spellcaster" is not an answer :smallamused:

[Amphetryon]

Just a quick question: Please explain how the the scout considered a "weak" class. "Because it's not a spellcaster" is not an answer :smallamused:

It has a relatively poor progression for its damage booster (Skirmish) and needs secondary support through feats or ACFs in order to get that damage booster off with reliability. The movement required also further limits the situations in which Skirmish can apply, when it's already limited by all the factors that limit Sneak Attack's applicability.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

It has a relatively poor progression for its damage booster (Skirmish) and needs secondary support through feats or ACFs in order to get that damage booster off with reliability. The movement required also further limits the situations in which Skirmish can apply, when it's already limited by all the factors that limit Sneak Attack's applicability.

-"...needs secondary support through feats..."
Every class needs feats to augment it's abilities and customize the character. that is why they exist. :smallwink:

-"...The movement required also further limits the situations in which Skirmish can apply..."
Movement is easier than you think. Spring attack, which is potentially a free feat in the class @ L8 (or if you can get access to it earlier) gives you much more freedom and area to move. Not even counting the ways of getting flight speed...

-"...when it's already limited by all the factors that limit Sneak Attack's applicability".
-Not exactly true. As said earlier in this same thread, one does not need to be flanked, flat-footed, or at the beginning of combat to be skirmish'ed. The scout need only move 10' or 20' (for Improved Skirmish) to gain the extra damage. It is true that one can be immune to skirmish damage; but the same can be said for anything else. Typically, the scout is not going to be your front line fighter type; their ability is called "skirmish" which infers fast movement and attacking on the run.

Not all spells affect all monsters the same way.
Not all types of metal affect all monsters the same way.
Not all types of damage affect all monsters the same way.

Besides, magic items and feats exist to assist a character in doing what they are designed to do. It is easy to overcome creatures that are immune to precision damage.

The game is about balance; at some point the Scout is not going to be at the center of the party, or trying to "win DND". there are times when other party members would shine, and some times when the scout would shine.

[Amphetryon]

-"...needs secondary support through feats..."
Every class needs feats to augment it's abilities and customize the character. that is why they exist. :smallwink:

-"...The movement required also further limits the situations in which Skirmish can apply..."
Movement is easier than you think. Spring attack, which is potentially a free feat in the class @ L8 (or if you can get access to it earlier) gives you much more freedom and area to move. Not even counting the ways of getting flight speed...

-"...when it's already limited by all the factors that limit Sneak Attack's applicability".
-Not exactly true. As said earlier in this same thread, one does not need to be flanked, flat-footed, or at the beginning of combat to be skirmish'ed. The scout need only move 10' or 20' (for Improved Skirmish) to gain the extra damage. It is true that one can be immune to skirmish damage; but the same can be said for anything else. Typically, the scout is not going to be your front line fighter type; their ability is called "skirmish" which infers fast movement and attacking on the run.

Not all spells affect all monsters the same way.
Not all types of metal affect all monsters the same way.
Not all types of damage affect all monsters the same way.

Besides, magic items and feats exist to assist a character in doing what they are designed to do. It is easy to overcome creatures that are immune to precision damage.

The game is about balance; at some point the Scout is not going to be at the center of the party, or trying to "win DND". there are times when other party members would shine, and some times when the scout would shine.I'm not talking about customizing the character, I'm talking about making their abilities function. If I told you a Sorcerer was required to invest in one line of the various Heritage feats in order to access his spells, I'd be nerfing the class. Scout is required to get Pounce and/or Greater Manyshot in order for its Skirmish class feature to function at a level that actually helps the party. The movement requirement makes Terrain a greater hindrance to Scout than to other precision damage dealers, and prevents them from getting more than a single iteration of their Skirmish off in an attack sequence without the aforementioned feats. The fact that such things are available doesn't ameliorate the weakness; the assertion that they are ameliorated by such is a variation of Oberroni Fallacy.

[Runestar]

A typical scout will be moving and making only a single attack each round if he wants to apply his skirmish damage. This results in quite pitiful damage. At lv19, skirmish adds only a crummy +5d6 damage, or 7d6 with improved skirmish. Say you are wielding a +5 rapier - that works out to only 6d6+5+misc modifiers worth of damage. And this is before dr gets factored in.

Even a plain warlock is doing more damage (9d6, plus whatever invocations you tack on top of it).

I suppose with improved skirmish and bounding assault, you are making 2 attacks at 8d6+10 (say), but again, that comes so late, and even a fighter is easily doing ~150-200 damage on a full-attack.

Pounce doesn't quite solve the problem, since a scout's 3/4 bab means their iterative attacks from TWFing have a fairly low chance of connecting anyways. Greater manyshot is another alternative, but you don't get that many attacks, and again, the penalty is rather harsh when coupled with your 3/4 bab.

I am not sure what niche the scout is supposed to fill. It certainly stinks at the striker role, since its damage output is so anemic.

All in all, cool ability, ridiculous cost. :smallmad:

[Curmudgeon]

I am not sure what niche the scout is supposed to fill. It certainly stinks at the striker role, since its damage output is so anemic. Yeah, basically the class is ineffectual in combat until you solve the 10' movement + full attack problem. Multiclassing as Monk and training with a Sparring Dummy of the Master, or boosting Tumble to the point where you can make DC 40 checks reliably are some of the ways to solve this.

[Person_Man]

Just a quick question: Please explain how the the scout considered a "weak" class. "Because it's not a spellcaster" is not an answer :smallamused:

Scout Basics:

3/4 BAB: Power Attack is not a viable option. Also, you'll often have one fewer attack compared to full BAB classes, and your To-Hit will often be lower.
AC/Hit Points: Light Armor and d6 hit die. Skirmish helps a bit on the AC, but tanking is usually not a viable option, and getting close to melee combatants can be dangerous.
Saves: Strong Ref, weak Fort and Will. Worse then the Ranger. Your Will Save in particular can be an issue, since you have little reason to boost Wis and lack the Rogue's Slippery Mind.
Skills: Excellent, but lacks UMD, unlike most other Skill Monkeys.
Special Abilities: ALL of them except for Skirmish can be duplicated by feats and/or affordable magic items. Some are efficient for the level they are gained at (Flawless Stride at 6th level is the real standout, IF your DM happens to use a ton of terrain), but you have no unique class abilities except for...
Skirmish: +0.875 per level. That's far less then Power Attack (+1 per level), Sneak Attack (+1.75 per level), Power Attack 2 handed (+2 per level), Leap Attack ( +2 per level), Leap Attack 2 handed (+3 or +4 per level, depending on how your DM reads the errata), or damage that you can get from spells/psionics/manuevers/etc (varies widely, but a ballpark figure is usually +3.5 per level)
Archery Feat tax: 5 feats - Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Precise Shot, and Greater Manyshot are pretty much required to play a Scout unless you're very creative. They get a couple of bonus feats, but not enough.


I'd also add that archery focused builds tend to get really boring after a few weeks - every round of every combat tends to be the same.
Don't get me wrong - I love the Scout. My favorite character of all time was a pre-Races of the Dragon Kobold Scout. But it's clear that they're a weak class.

[Sinfire Titan]

Every class needs feats to augment it's abilities and customize the character. that is why they exist. :smallwink:

Not along the lines of Swift Hunter. That feat fixed the major problems with the Scout by giving it free feats and near-Full BAB.



Movement is easier than you think. Spring attack, which is potentially a free feat in the class @ L8 (or if you can get access to it earlier) gives you much more freedom and area to move. Not even counting the ways of getting flight speed...

Spring Attack sucks. It's a wannabe Flyby Attack, and Travel Devotion beats it hands down. Relying on an ability that doesn't kick in until 8th level and that requires you to deny yourself your Iterative Attacks on a class with a damage booster like Skirmish or Sneak Attack is horrid. This is the reason optimizers try to find as many ways as possible to avoid using their Move action, or get more attacks out of a Standard action (Manyshot).

Really, the problem is you need multiple attacks/round to keep up in terms of damage and you have a hard time doing this with an ability like Skirmish (remember, Mounts and Teleportation don't trigger Skirmish because you yourself are not moving, something else is moving your body Xft).



-Not exactly true. As said earlier in this same thread, one does not need to be flanked, flat-footed, or at the beginning of combat to be skirmish'ed. The scout need only move 10' or 20' (for Improved Skirmish) to gain the extra damage. It is true that one can be immune to skirmish damage; but the same can be said for anything else. Typically, the scout is not going to be your front line fighter type; their ability is called "skirmish" which infers fast movement and attacking on the run.

He means the immunities. Also, Difficult Terrain actually royally screw a Scout who doesn't have Travel Devotion or Flyby Attack.


Not all spells affect all monsters the same way.

Irrelevant. There are enough spells out there that nothing in the game is immune to all of them outright, and even some Epic monsters that produce AMFs out to a Mile in radius are vulnerable to a single 9th level spell (Invoke Magic).


The game is about balance; at some point the Scout is not going to be at the center of the party, or trying to "win DND". there are times when other party members would shine, and some times when the scout would shine.

Except the point of a noncaster in combat is to deal damage and keep enemies away from the rest of the party. Skirmish is suboptimal (hell, so is Sneak Attack by comparison to a Charger build or an Archer Fighter) damage-wise, and the ability requires you to move around, meaning the latter is nearly impossible.

[Runestar]

Not along the lines of Swift Hunter. That feat fixed the major problems with the Scout by giving it free feats and near-Full BAB.

It says something about a class when a proposed fix involves taking a feat and as few lvs of that class as possible.

I mean, there is no reason to ever take more than 3 or 4 lvs of scout. :smallconfused:

[lsfreak]

I mean, there is no reason to ever take more than 3 or 4 lvs of scout. :smallconfused:

Five, for the ACF that lets you reflect missed rays back at the spellcaster (and still getting Evasion - or vice versa). Can be useful, considering your touch AC will probably be pretty high, and NPC casters aren't likely to be especially optimized.

[Runestar]

But yewww...that 5th lv of scout does not grant bab or saves...:smalleek:

[Boci]

But yewww...that 5th lv of scout does not grant bab or saves...:smalleek:

Fragmented progression?

[Foryn Gilnith]

and NPC casters aren't likely to be especially optimized.

I question the premises upon which your logic is based.

[lsfreak]

I question the premises upon which your logic is based.

Sorry, that was meant to be 'aren't as likely to be optimized,' and probably should have qualified that with 'for making high attack rolls.' Which if you look at the MM casters, it's true - their attack rolls aren't optimized. And while possible, low-ranking mookish spellcasters in the BBEG's employ aren't likely focusing on upping their attack rolls, if nothing else because there's so many other options for them to focus on (they could instead be focusing on batman on the whole, and therefore focused on upping save DC's or action economy rather than their attack rolls).


But yewww...that 5th lv of scout does not grant bab or saves...
Sorry, I forget not everyone played with fractional BAB/saves. But they should! :smalltongue:

[Runestar]

Sorry, I forget not everyone played with fractional BAB/saves. But they should! :smalltongue:

Unless my understanding of fractional bab is flawed, that 5th lv scout will still not improve your bab if you are multiclassing with a full-bab class such as the ranger, because it counts as only 0.25bab, and will thus always get rounded down.

Saves might improve a tad faster though. That I concur. :smallwink:


Which if you look at the MM casters, it's true - their attack rolls aren't optimized.

So they skip ranged touch spells, and resort to stuff which buff their allies (such as haste), ignore saves (ray of enfeeblement) or target your weak saves (slow)? :smalltongue:

[Petrocorus]

Care to share? I hadn't noticed any PrCs like that.

What about the precise strike of the Duelist?

[lsfreak]

Unless my understanding of fractional bab is flawed, that 5th lv scout will still not improve your bab if you are multiclassing with a full-bab class such as the ranger, because it counts as only 0.25bab, and will thus always get rounded down.

It's .75, but yea you're right. Still, 1BAB for the ability to reflect spells could be useful. Depends on the character. Even without optimizing attack rolls, it's not uncommon for spellcasters to throw rays of enfeeblement, enervation, and the like, and without the optimized attack rolls it won't be too uncommon for a swift hunter's above-average touch AC to make the attack miss, allowing reflection. That was my point.

[Boci]

Unless my understanding of fractional bab is flawed, that 5th lv scout will still not improve your bab if you are multiclassing with a full-bab class such as the ranger, because it counts as only 0.25bab, and will thus always get rounded down.

Wouldn't you be diping into cleric for travel devotion?

[Runestar]

Wouldn't you be diping into cleric for travel devotion?

Must I? I already see travel devotion being mentioned left and right...:smallconfused:

[Mongoose87]

Pretty sure you don't have to take Cleric, but it would help.