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View Full Version : Which is better 2.0: Wizard vs Psion vs Archivist=Let's Make Things Interesting!



LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-15, 01:23 PM
Let's say, for the sake of argument, all three are Optimized to What isn't broken, and are on a neutral battleground, who wins: Archivist, Wizard, or Psion?

Kylarra
2010-03-15, 01:30 PM
They team together to create an epic spell that allows them to find you and torture you forever for trying to come up with this idea.

Kurald Galain
2010-03-15, 01:31 PM
:xykon: Me.

Hyozo
2010-03-15, 01:39 PM
The other two spend an hour preparing their spells, both in character and out. This whole time, the psion is prebuffing himself, laughing at the other two, and playing checkers with the DM.

:smallbiggrin:

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-15, 01:58 PM
Depends on exactly what's considered 'not broken,' and what the exact challenge is, and what splatbooks are allowed, and how many PrCs can be gotten, and what the houserules (if any) there are, and how the DM interprets the rules, and so on and so on and so on. How much op-fu is too much? I dunno, and neither does anyone else.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-15, 02:00 PM
okay, to the level most DM's'd allow. I mean, this'll give new players a good taste of the three aces in INT Powercasting

Lamech
2010-03-15, 02:00 PM
If there all optimized to the level of "not broken" they are all at the same level of "not broken", and therefore they are all equal, since there all equal. Duh.

Iferus
2010-03-15, 02:02 PM
Depends on the amount of preparation (more preparation = stronger wizard) and whoever gets the highest initiative.

sreservoir
2010-03-15, 03:00 PM
what happened to the erudite?

JoshuaZ
2010-03-15, 06:40 PM
Let's say, for the sake of argument, all three are Optimized to What isn't broken, and are on a neutral battleground, who wins: Archivist, Wizard, or Psion?

The line between broken and not broken is inherently subjective. Is shivering touch broken? Is consumptive field broken? Is incantatrix broken? Etc. Unless you come up with a very specific definition of broken the question is not well-defined. Even given a short definition, exactly what spells the archivist has available is going to matter a lot.

Kylarra
2010-03-15, 06:47 PM
okay, to the level most DM's'd allow. I mean, this'll give new players a good taste of the three aces in INT PowercastingThat's a subjective measure that will probably be higher "PO" than most new players will see in their tables for a while.

AKA it'll set up false expectations and destroy tables. Hardly what you want to present to new players.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-15, 06:48 PM
what happened to the erudite?

Apparently some still think Psion is better than it.

JaronK
2010-03-15, 10:19 PM
Wizard and Archivist can adjust their powers to new situations, so if they can play proactively they win outright. Psion's still amazingly powerful of course, but it can't adapt quite as well and have exactly the right power when you need it. So if the player can anticipate what's coming or is in a vaguely sandboxy environment, the Wizard or Archivist is going to be most useful.

JaronK

magic9mushroom
2010-03-16, 04:49 AM
Let's say, for the sake of argument, all three are Optimized to What isn't broken, and are on a neutral battleground, who wins: Archivist, Wizard, or Psion?

Assuming you meant Erudite, since it's the psionic wizard and at least as likely to be allowed as Archivist (Erudite's in Core+Completes, Archivist's from one of the worst-edited sourcebooks in 3.5, and one which introduces a bunch of weird rules), then Spell to Power Erudite has the greatest versatility (being able to pick up almost all spells and powers in the game and cast them spontaneously) and therefore likely wins.

That's assuming high-op but not extreme-op. Extreme-op they're all just about infinite power anyway.

If you actually did mean Psion then the powers known limit hurts them.

2xMachina
2010-03-16, 04:54 AM
But psions can also research powers. It's very possible for it to have an Erudite's array of powers. (Just hard to get it in a real game, cause you won't have the downtime to research them).

magic9mushroom
2010-03-16, 05:00 AM
But psions can also research powers. It's very possible for it to have an Erudite's array of powers. (Just hard to get it in a real game, cause you won't have the downtime to research them).

Researching powers still uses Powers Known IIRC. Unless you get into Psychic Chirurgery shenanigans that even with the river of XP won't allow you to catch up.

Re: Power Research:


The number of
powers that all psionic classes can know is strictly limited;
manifesters can never exceed those limits even through the
research of original powers.

Optimystik
2010-03-16, 06:09 AM
(Erudite's in Core+Completes, Archivist's from one of the worst-edited sourcebooks in 3.5, and one which introduces a bunch of weird rules)

Books don't matter; they're both (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060406b&page=1) :smalltongue:


But psions can also research powers. It's very possible for it to have an Erudite's array of powers. (Just hard to get it in a real game, cause you won't have the downtime to research them).

As an Erudite IS a Psion, it too can research powers. It has less 'natural' powers known to learn them with, but can use a variety of tricks to learn as many researched powers as it wants.

Oslecamo
2010-03-16, 06:16 AM
As an Erudite IS a Psion, it too can research powers. It has less 'natural' powers known to learn them with, but can use a variety of tricks to learn as many researched powers as it wants.

I'm pretty sure those tricks fall on the broken territorry. If you're using them, we may as well make it a race to see who can become pun-pun earlier.

Also, I believe I never understood quite well how erudites can unlock arcane spells as I've heard. If somebody could explain it I would be gratefull. If they can't, then wizard beats erudite, even if it has every power known, as arcane spells raw power ends up being greater than psionics.

Optimystik
2010-03-16, 06:26 AM
I'm pretty sure those tricks fall on the broken territorry. If you're using them, we may as well make it a race to see who can become pun-pun earlier.

Nothing broken about them. Encode your powers into a power stone (or Bestow them on an underling), reform new ones and relearn the ones you stored. The XP cost is prohibitive enough that it prevents abuse all by itself.


Also, I believe I never understood quite well how erudites can unlock arcane spells as I've heard. If somebody could explain it I would be gratefull. If they can't, then wizard beats erudite, even if it has every power known, as arcane spells raw power ends up being greater than psionics.

Convert Spell to Power (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a)
Be afraid

Oslecamo
2010-03-16, 06:33 AM
Nothing broken about them. Encode your powers into a power stone (or Bestow them on an underling), reform new ones and relearn the ones you stored. The XP cost is prohibitive enough that it prevents abuse all by itself.

Excellent. You're burning exp in learning powers, the wizard is burning exp into building an army of simulacrums. Wizard wins.



Convert Spell to Power (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a)
Be afraid

Thanks. But if any and all printed variant rules are allowed whitout caring about balance, then I summon tainted scholar necropolitan. Or ethereal jaunt incantrix of the 7 veils. There's no taint benefits for psions neither is there half the avaliable meta reducers that wizards can unlock.

Optimystik
2010-03-16, 06:37 AM
Excellent. You're burning exp in learning powers, the wizard is burning exp into building an army of simulacrums. Wizard wins.

First you say learning powers by expending exp is broken, then you start building a simulacrum army? :smallconfused:


Thanks. But if any and all printed variant rules are allowed whitout caring about balance, then I summon tainted scholar necropolitan. Or ethereal jaunt incantrix. There's no taint benefits for psions neither is there half the avaliable meta reducers that wizards can unlock.

If you're allowing all printed rules then I bring in Hyperconscious and CPsi. Now I can automatically counter all your spells even if you bump them up to 144 CL, by using Anticipate Power; I have unlimited PP to do so thanks to Mental Pinnacle; and unlimited actions to do so thanks to Linked Power+Synchronicity/Anticipatory Strike.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-16, 06:38 AM
Books don't matter; they're both (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060406b&page=1) :smalltongue:

Which is still outside Core+Completes. :smalltongue:

Cyclocone
2010-03-16, 06:47 AM
Thanks. But if any and all printed variant rules are allowed whitout caring about balance, then I summon tainted scholar necropolitan. Or ethereal jaunt incantrix of the 7 veils. There's no taint benefits for psions neither is there half the avaliable meta reducers that wizards can unlock.

There is Subverted Psion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20051125a). It's no Tainted Scholar to be sure; but then, whatever is?

Oslecamo
2010-03-16, 06:58 AM
First you say learning powers by expending exp is broken, then you start building a simulacrum army? :smallconfused:

Just fighting fire with fire. At least it's a core spell.



If you're allowing all printed rules then I bring in Hyperconscious and CPsi. Now I can automatically counter all your spells even if you bump them up to 144 CL, by using Anticipate Power; I have unlimited PP to do so thanks to Mental Pinnacle; and unlimited actions to do so thanks to Linked Power+Synchronicity/Anticipatory Strike.

Nice one, but mental pinnacle doesn't stack with itself (bonus from the same source never stack unless said otherwise), so altough you can get some extra PPs, it's nowhere near enough to fully fuel you against the wizard's cheesed celerity throwing gate/simulacrum army.

Optimystik
2010-03-16, 07:03 AM
Which is still outside Core+Completes. :smalltongue:

My point was that you can legally get the goodness of the Archivist (and Erudite) without having to deal with the poor editing of their respective books.


Nice one, but mental pinnacle doesn't stack with itself(bonus from the same source never stack unless said otherwise), so altough you can get some extra PPs, it's nowhere near enough to fully fuel you against the wizard's cheesed gate arm.

Doesn't have to stack - it refreshes the duration, granting me 30 (or is it 33?) free PP each manifestation so long as I keep using the PP I get. By linking it to Synchronicity I never run out of actions. Meanwhile my Schism, Psicrystal, Simulacra and other duplicates are busy countering your gates until you run out of steam. (By sharing Mental Pinnacle with my Psicrystal, he keeps getting PP of his own - and since he can take feats, he can take Anticipate Power too.)

Oslecamo
2010-03-16, 07:13 AM
Doesn't have to stack - it refreshes the duration, granting me 30 (or is it 33?) free PP each manifestation so long as I keep using the PP I get. By linking it to Synchronicity I never run out of actions. Meanwhile my Schism, Psicrystal, Simulacra and other duplicates are busy countering your gates until you run out of steam. (By sharing Mental Pinnacle with my Psicrystal, he keeps getting PP of his own - and since he can take feats, he can take Anticipate Power too.)

Already acounted for that. It only if the wizard is an idiot. You try to refresh, one of the wizard's mooks counters with celerity before you actualy recover the PP. You try to refresh in response, another minion counters. You'll run out of PPs sooner. And whitout PPs, no extra actions.

Plus the wizard has the familiar to your psi crystal, wich can be cheesed out as well, if not better.

Also, wizard get more minions since you had to burn exp to learn your powers.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2010-03-16, 07:19 AM
Psion casts Synchronicity as a swift action, then casts a pair of Decerebrates (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/psionicPowersDtoF.html#decerebrate), one on the Wizard, one on the Archivist, they both fail their saves vs. Fort because an optimized wizard and Archivist would have a terrible fort save, lose their brain stems, they end up drooling in a cup, and die in 1d4 days.

:smallsmile:

I could Epically Nova too. :smallsmile:

Optimystik
2010-03-16, 07:24 AM
Already acounted for that. It only if the wizard is an idiot. You try to refresh, one of the wizard's mooks counters with celerity. You try to refresh in response, another minion counters. You'll run out of PPs sooner. And whitout PPs, no extra actions.

I have far more mooks than you do, because my Psicrystal is a Thrallherd - and he also has a psicrystal, which... Hell, if you're not careful you might be one of them.

Oh, and I also have Celerity.


Also, wizard get more minions since you had to burn exp to learn your powers.

I honestly don't need that many powers beyond my regular ones learned and Expanded Knowledge to win this contest. Hell, the only actual spells I've learned are Celerity and MP.

Oslecamo
2010-03-16, 07:31 AM
I have far more mooks than you do, because my Psicrystal is a Thrallherd - and he also has a psicrystal, which... Hell, if you're not careful you might be one of them.

Care to explain how your psicrystal took class levels? And anyone can do that trick with leadership. Boring.



Oh, and I also have Celerity.

I have more celerities.



I honestly don't need that many powers beyond my regular ones learned and Expanded Knowledge to win this contest. Hell, the only actual spells I've learned are Celerity and MP.

Still more than enough to spell the psion's defeat. You also lost another feat to get spell to power and several feats for expanded knowledge.

EDIT: Actualy wizard does the trallherd thingy better.

Red wizard of thay to boost CL to hell and beyond. Call super creatures. Wich all have epic leadership. And their cohorts have epic leadership as well. And the cohort's cohort... Well, just profit.

Optimystik
2010-03-16, 07:42 AM
Care to explain how your psicrystal took class levels? And anyone can do that trick with leadership. Boring.

My goal was effectiveness, not entertainment.
There was a trick to get your psicrystal into it but I can't seem to find it. He can always just take leadership instead (and have his psicrystal take leadership etc.)


I have more celerities.

Not when my thralls/clones are casting them too, and countering yours.


Still more than enough to spell the psion's defeat.

Erudite, not psion.


You also lost another feat to get spell to power and several feats for expanded knowledge.

I lost a bonus feat, but I get a psicrystal as a bonus feat. I still break even with a psion.

"Several feats for EK?" No, I lost exactly one feat for EK - EK itself. Again, I don't need that many powers.

Coplantor
2010-03-16, 07:46 AM
To the OP.

Psion is probably the loser, unless of course, that the wizard and the archivist starts the fight without spells prepared.

Now, I have a question, I have the Comp. Psionics, but I dont understand the mechanics behind the Erudite, the way the Unique powers work, I just dont get it.

Oslecamo
2010-03-16, 07:49 AM
My goal was effectiveness, not entertainment.
There was a trick to get your psicrystal into it but I can't seem to find it. He can always just take leadership instead (and have his psicrystal take leadership etc.)

Then the wizard's familiar(and the wizard himself) pick leadership as well. Quite simple to counter. But the wizard does it better as seen on my edit, thanks to red wizard of thay.



Not when my thralls/clones are casting them too, and countering yours.

Say that to my red wizard of thay boosting his CL to heaven to call epic creatures with epic leadership and mindrape them.

Optimystik
2010-03-16, 07:55 AM
Then the wizard's familiar(and the wizard himself) pick leadership as well. Quite simple to counter. But the wizard does it better as seen on my edit, thanks to red wizard of thay.

Say that to my red wizard of thay boosting his CL to heaven to call epic creatures with epic leadership and mindrape them.

Familiars can't take feats as they don't advance HD. Psicrystals do.
Circle magic is the worst idea you could come up with, because again your CL has nothing to do with how easy you are to counter with AP - which every psionic minion and psicrystal I have can do.

Oslecamo
2010-03-16, 08:02 AM
Familiars can't take feats as they don't advance HD. Psicrystals do.
Meh, pretty sure someone cheesed it out somewhere, but don't really need that.



Circle magic is the worst idea you could come up with, because again your CL has nothing to do with how easy you are to counter with AP - which every psionic minion and psicrystal I have can do.

Silly boy. Circle magic isn't for casting in battle. Is to gate and mindrape advanced great wyrms , all with epic leadership, and proceed to use them and their epic mooks to overwhelm your non-epic leadership fueled mooks. Nonepic leaderhip cap is smaller than epic leadership, and your erudite has no way of cheesing out super gates to bring forth advanced monsters of doom with epic leadership. You're both otnumbered and outgunned. Resistance is futile.

Optimystik
2010-03-16, 08:59 AM
Silly boy.

:smalltongue:


gate and mindrape

Both countered, ni times over.
If you have time to set up beforehand, then I mindblank and park on my private demiplane where you can't find me, and Revise Reality so you don't. Now we're both in Wish-Rocket-Tag territory and enter a singularity.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-16, 09:31 AM
.

Now, I have a question, I have the Comp. Psionics, but I dont understand the mechanics behind the Erudite, the way the Unique powers work, I just dont get it.

Can of worms!

*looks for cover*

Optimystik
2010-03-16, 09:40 AM
Now, I have a question, I have the Comp. Psionics, but I dont understand the mechanics behind the Erudite, the way the Unique powers work, I just dont get it.

Basically, Erudites can know any number of powers, but every time they use one of them it gets "locked in" and lowers their versatility. They can manifest any chosen powers as many times as they have PP, but they have less freedom to manifest anything else.

It's like choosing a bunch of powers (11, to use the sane reading) each day from your repertoire, similar to preparing spells from a spellbook. The difference is that a) Erudites can do this on the fly, rather than after a period of rest, and b) Once a power is chosen, there is no limit on its use except for available PP.

The table gives them 11 unique powers to choose from per day at level 20 - 11 powers total. The text (both online, and in Complete Psionic) gives them 11 unique powers to choose from at each power level per day at level 20 (220 powers total.) Though the latter is RAW, it makes the mechanic somewhat meaningless as a limiting factor.

Coplantor
2010-03-16, 09:44 AM
Can of worms!

*looks for cover*

You made me laugh at work, you sir, are epic

Oslecamo
2010-03-16, 10:02 AM
Both countered, ni times over.
If you have time to set up beforehand, then I mindblank and park on my private demiplane where you can't find me, and Revise Reality so you don't. Now we're both in Wish-Rocket-Tag territory and enter a singularity.

Correction, I end up having epic magic sillyness on my own demiplane, you don't, as there's no epic psionic rules and the erudite doesn't allow you to research/cast epic spells. Not even private revised demiplanes can save you then. There's no singularity left, only Tippy.:smallbiggrin:

Also, hiding in your demiplane while my epic dragons and their armies rampage trough the rest of the multiverse probably counts as defeat. The title of the thread is who is better, and ruling over an army of epic dragons surely sounds better than ruling over an army of crystals in my book.:smalltongue:

Cyclocone
2010-03-16, 10:09 AM
Correction, I end up having epic magic sillyness on my own demiplane, you don't, as there's no epic psionic rules and the erudite doesn't allow you to research/cast epic spells.

The Epic Level Joke Book Page would like to show you something. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/psionicPowers.htm)

Oslecamo
2010-03-16, 10:13 AM
The Epic Level Joke Book Page would like to show you something. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/psionicPowers.htm)

Hmm, never noticed that, thank you. Back to singularity untill I find more wizard cheese!

Optimystik
2010-03-16, 10:37 AM
Epic Psionics is actually better :smalltongue: All the same seeds, only one knowledge skill needed, and no divine focus (even for the Heal and Life seeds.)

I was avoiding epic anyway, if you bring in epic levels an StP Erudite gets Gate also and the singularity reaches critical mass.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-16, 03:50 PM
To the OP.

Psion is probably the loser, unless of course, that the wizard and the archivist starts the fight without spells prepared.

Now, I have a question, I have the Comp. Psionics, but I dont understand the mechanics behind the Erudite, the way the Unique powers work, I just dont get it.


Basically, Erudites can know any number of powers, but every time they use one of them it gets "locked in" and lowers their versatility. They can manifest any chosen powers as many times as they have PP, but they have less freedom to manifest anything else.

It's like choosing a bunch of powers (11, to use the sane reading) each day from your repertoire, similar to preparing spells from a spellbook. The difference is that a) Erudites can do this on the fly, rather than after a period of rest, and b) Once a power is chosen, there is no limit on its use except for available PP.

The table gives them 11 unique powers to choose from per day at level 20 - 11 powers total. The text (both online, and in Complete Psionic) gives them 11 unique powers to choose from at each power level per day at level 20 (220 powers total.) Though the latter is RAW, it makes the mechanic somewhat meaningless as a limiting factor.

Actually, the 11 UP/Level/Day only gives 99 total. Still more than you can use without actively trying to hit it.

And it is a limiter up until you hit level 10 or so.

Of course, the problem is that they took it from Dragon, where it was UP/L/D and there was a whole table with different amounts for each level (topping out at 4/level/day).

That's not the only problem with Erudite, though. There's also the Maximum Power Level Known problem - text says you can learn any power you can manifest, table says no.

randomhero00
2010-03-16, 05:11 PM
Actually, the 11 UP/Level/Day only gives 99 total. Still more than you can use without actively trying to hit it.


How are you guys figuring that? I must be wrong, but I'm looking at the table and it clearly says, at 20th level, you can manifest 11 unique powers a day. Not per level.

Flickerdart
2010-03-16, 05:12 PM
How are you guys figuring that? I must be wrong, but I'm looking at the table and it clearly says, at 20th level, you can manifest 11 unique powers a day. Not per level.
The rule is "text trumps table", and the text says otherwise.

KellKheraptis
2010-03-16, 05:23 PM
Let's not also forget that Tippy is dealing with Tippidite, since both can Dusk Giant up to 21 HD and cast their own epic spells ;)

randomhero00
2010-03-16, 05:27 PM
The rule is "text trumps table", and the text says otherwise.

ah, referring to "...an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day..."?

It's too bad they go on to use an example of a 1st level erudite. If only they had used a higher level, it would be clear. I suppose by RAW they do get a lot, but I don't think any DM would figure it that way. Otherwise they wouldn't have bothered to use the word "limited" if he could know 99 unique powers + his normal amount by 20. Well I suppose technically they might have used "limited" more in reference to lower levels when it would matter. Still...

Although, couldn't that phrase be referring to the fact that the unique powers known changes with level? Which would make it RAI and now RAW. It's not as "proper" grammatically but it makes more sense. Either way, I'd have a difficult time even believing it RAW like that.

Or were you referring to something else?

Flickerdart
2010-03-16, 05:59 PM
No, that's what I meant. It's a very poorly edited class, and I just rule by the table, which drops them from Tier 1.

randomhero00
2010-03-16, 06:14 PM
No, that's what I meant. It's a very poorly edited class, and I just rule by the table, which drops them from Tier 1.

Sorry, but did you mean, "Yes, that's what I meant"? Confusing me :smallbiggrin:

Also, I thought that the unique limit x per day was only in reference to those he learned (repertoire) from outside sources? And did not count toward his free 2 spells per level? (which wouldn't count toward his x unique limit)

So wouldn't he be a tier 1 class? Or am I reading it wrong again :smallsmile:

Flickerdart
2010-03-16, 06:23 PM
Sorry, but did you mean, "Yes, that's what I meant"? Confusing me :smallbiggrin:

Also, I thought that the unique limit x per day was only in reference to those he learned (repertoire) from outside sources? And did not count toward his free 2 spells per level? (which wouldn't count toward his x unique limit)

So wouldn't he be a tier 1 class? Or am I reading it wrong again :smallsmile:
The no was in response to "or were you referring to something else", which I was not.

The Erudite can learn as many powers as he wants, but he can only manifest X unique ones per day. So he has 2 unique powers per day, and he manifests both Catfall and Bite of the Wolf. He can't manifest any powers other than Catfall and Bite of the Wolf for the rest of the day, no matter how many other powers he knows, but he can use those two for as long as he has PP available.

randomhero00
2010-03-16, 06:32 PM
Ah, thanks. That makes levels 1-13 or so incredibly brutal then..:smallfrown:

magic9mushroom
2010-03-16, 06:39 PM
Ah, thanks. That makes levels 1-13 or so incredibly brutal then..:smallfrown:

Unless you rule by the text of "X powers of each level per day" which the table doesn't actually contradict (although the Epic Erudite section does).

Even without that ruling, though, the fact that you get to pick them anew each day gives an advantage.

randomhero00
2010-03-16, 06:45 PM
Unless you rule by the text of "X powers of each level per day" which the table doesn't actually contradict (although the Epic Erudite section does).

Even without that ruling, though, the fact that you get to pick them anew each day gives an advantage.

How does the table not contradict it? Its simply 'unique powers a day'. If they lined up with spell levels, rather than just going up, I could see it, but they don't.

Yeah, but when you can only pick 4 or 5 a day, there goes all your utility spells. Which is kind of the point really, of knowing so many in the first place. Its rather anti-synergistic.

faceroll
2010-03-16, 06:51 PM
Familiars can't take feats as they don't advance HD. Psicrystals do.

One way around that:
Magic mirror + chaos shuffle.