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Critical
2010-03-15, 01:36 PM
I've got an idea of a character that acts like a mysterious stranger to a party, taggling along with them without them actually seeing him. Of course, ideally it's a pixie, but I would like it to be a LA+0 race and a non-caster. So, how can you make hide optimized, so you could snipe with -20 to the hide check and still remain unseen by both enemies and allies? Any ideas? :smallbiggrin:

*.*.*.*
2010-03-15, 01:38 PM
I've got an idea of a character that acts like a mysterious stranger to a party, taggling along with them without them actually seeing him. Of course, ideally it's a pixie, but I would like it to be a LA+0 race and a non-caster. So, how can you make hide optimized, so you could snipe with -20 to the hide check and still remain unseen by both enemies and allies? Any ideas? :smallbiggrin:

Start off with whisper gnome and you are halfway to your goal


at level 1

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-15, 01:38 PM
With 0LA, I can think of only one:

Whisper Gnome
Monk 6/Ninja 4/Ninja of the Crescent Moon 10
With Astetic Stalker

Soonerdj
2010-03-15, 01:38 PM
Invisibility grants you a +40 bonus to Hide checks, barring that the first level of Shadowdancer grants you Hide in Plain Sight which can be a boon to any sneaky character.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-15, 01:39 PM
Hangeyokai Sparrow Warlock/Unseen Seer (or any other caster/sneak attacker)
I mean he doesn't cast 'spells' per say...
Alternative just convince your DM that a sparrow could wield a footbow appropriate to it's size.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-15, 01:41 PM
doesn't a kobold with the web enhancement get a +8 to hide right off the bat?

Critical
2010-03-15, 01:47 PM
Hey, I know how to do it using a caster-type.

The catch is, I want to do it without spell-casting.

dspeyer
2010-03-15, 01:55 PM
Size bonuses help, though I don't know of any tiny or smaller races with LA below 3.

Factotum is nice because you add intelligence and it all stacks.

Skill-bonus items are cheap, but somewhat cheesy (also, be prepared for the pcs to kill this npc and take it).

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-15, 01:56 PM
Size bonuses help, though I don't know of any tiny or smaller races with LA below 3.

Factotum is nice because you add intelligence and it all stacks.

Skill-bonus items are cheap, but somewhat cheesy (also, be prepared for the pcs to kill this npc and take it).

The 3.5 update of Hengeyokai? Take Sparrow and just stay in that form

JaronK
2010-03-15, 01:58 PM
Whispergnome Factotum 1 with Darkstalker. Done. What more do you need? By level 3 you get to add in Int to hide and move silently.

JaronK

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-15, 01:58 PM
Hey, I know how to do it using a caster-type.

The catch is, I want to do it without spell-casting.

Well, truth be told a Warlock is more of an "archer" archetype with a few nifty magical tricks, kind of like a ranger, except flavored to be all emo with dark powers.

hamishspence
2010-03-15, 01:59 PM
Does the benefit of the Dark template (Tome of Magic) stack with Whisper Gnome?

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-15, 02:02 PM
Why is whisper gnome such an amazing sneaker anyway? IIRC, he only +4, just like any other small race. Silence is only 1/day...

Last Laugh
2010-03-15, 02:04 PM
umm, Factotum Whispergnome? Pick up a Collar of Umbral metamorphisis as soon as you can (Tome of magic) which gives the shadow creature template (+8 hide and hide in plain sight).
Factotum gets Int-> dex and str skills AND can use wands of invisibility
You might just have to hang back for a couple of levels and attack when the party doesn't have LoS to you.
If you are allowed level adjustment then a Dark Whispergnome might do the trick (+16 to hide total and hide in plain sight) not a horribly strong template. You said no LA tho.
How do you foil with truesight at later levels?
Whisper gnome get +4 from size and +4 from race to hide

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-15, 02:06 PM
Why is whisper gnome such an amazing sneaker anyway? IIRC, he only +4, just like any other small race. Silence is only 1/day...

Got a racial bonus on top of size bonus

@hamispace: IIRC it is untyped so I think Darktemplate stacks with racial bonus

Critical
2010-03-15, 03:00 PM
LA is allowed, I just wanted it to be nothing too special. Well, I thought it would be best to get the Dark Template the Continious Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, instead of actually getting it. I guess Item Familiar could be used to pump Hide Check further. Also, getting a permanent reduce person would be nice, I guess. Darkstalker would definitely be nice. I'll also consider 3 levels of Factotum, though it does drop the combat ability. Thanks everyone!

Eldariel
2010-03-15, 03:00 PM
Whisper Gnome is +8 Hide, +4 Move Silently. That's just the best. If you want LA 1, add Dark; +8 extra to Hide. And yeah, JaronK covered you; you can't do better than Whisper Gnome Factotum. Best of all, it doesn't suck. By level 3, it'll be equivalent to +0 Spot-checks.

Later on, Concealed Ambush [DR339] means you have no problems whatsoever at only -10 from Sniping. It can't really be picked before level 7 due to skill prerequisites tho.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-15, 07:25 PM
How do you foil with truesight at later levels?

Easy, truesight doesn't reveal creatures that are hiding by mundane means. As long as he's not relying exclusively on a (su) HiPS true-seeing does nothing.

Gnomo
2010-03-15, 07:43 PM
Skulk from Races of Destiny has a ridiculously high +15 racial bonus to Hide, +4 to Dexterity and do not incur in the -20 penalty to hide while moving at full speed, it has a +1 LA and 2 RHD though.

Person_Man
2010-03-15, 08:11 PM
Hangeyokai Sparrow Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b). With your Tiny size, Hide and Move Silently as class Skills, plus Compression, Control Light, Chameleon, Cloud Mind, Conceal Thoughts, etc, you should be pretty undetectable. Plus Mind Cripple can pretty much take down or utterly nerf most things that aren't immune to ability damage in 1 round (as Int scores tend to be a lot lower then Str scores, and enemies with high Int can't cast/manifest when their Int is severely reduced).

Stormageddon
2010-03-15, 08:13 PM
Halfling rogue has subsitute levels in races of the wild that makes the penalty only -10 for sniping.

Yorrin
2010-03-15, 08:20 PM
Where is the 3.5 update to Hangeyokai, out of curiosity? This sounds like something I could have a lot of fun with.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-03-15, 08:27 PM
Potion of Camouflage: +10 circumstance to Hide, 10 minutes, 50 gp.
Psionic Tattoo (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/psionicTattoos.htm) of Chameleon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/chameleon.htm): +10 enhancement to Hide, 10 minutes, 50 gp.
That alone gets you a +20 to counteract the sniping penalty.

Whisper Gnome gets a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks, a +4 for being small size, and a +2 Dex.

Yorrin
2010-03-15, 08:55 PM
Where is the 3.5 update to Hangeyokai, out of curiosity? This sounds like something I could have a lot of fun with.

Found it myself. If anyone else reading this is curious, it's in Dragon 318.

Brigham
2010-03-16, 08:02 AM
@Critical

Did you mention a particular character level of interest? I didn't see one, sorry if I missed it.

The best advice has been stated- go with Ninja. You gain an invisibility ability at level 2 and that lasts for an entire round regardless of the actions you take. WOTC has specifically stated that this Ninja invisibility is an ascribed status and not contingent to the spell "Invisibility."

Mathis
2010-03-16, 08:06 AM
I'm guessing that you are the DM in this game? If so, just make it happen. Give a person the ability to stay invisible. It's not that hard. You can take it away whenever you like. Ofcourse, this only works if you are talking about an NPC.

ericgrau
2010-03-16, 10:57 AM
Shadow armor: Up to +15 to hide. Range penalties to spot: -1 per 10 feet (the best for sniping). Size bonus: +4 for small. Bluff check (opposed by sense motive) to create a distraction and hide somewhere while being observed; great for ninja exits. Alternatively you could grab hide in plain sight from the ever famous shadow dancer dip, though IMO this ability is a little cheesy.